I am a very faithful christian, and I agree with you, state and church should be seperate. Is George Bush a christian??? I don't think so, no true christian could justify a war for oil. But man, saying you're a christian works well to get mindless christian drones to vote for you! You can do anything you want if people believe you when you say God is on your side.
This is a perfect example of why I believe that church and state should stay seperate or at the very least have limited powers.
I'm all for groups being organized and attempting to make change to policy but not when it is not serving the greater good.
And as I said before, it's not just about church and state. I am equally offended and appalled by the power wielded by big business in terms of shaping policy that affects everyone.
I never said that you did call him a monster. I said I didn't think he was one.
So it seems that much of what is going on here in this thread actually has nothing to do with this thread and is a combined frustration that you have from many previous threads? Or am I getting that wrong?
The thread is about OLS view that athiests, in his opinion, feel the need to attack those of religion. And I read it that he wondered why people couldn't be respectful of each other. :rolleyes: Of course that's just my interpretation. I'm probably wrong.
Please don't belittle my input. I simply asked why you felt it necessary to attack him personally. Or it seemed to me that you were. Again I could be wrong. This is text after all and not a true indication of the complexity of each of the individuals posting here.
As to the other, well not that I feel the need to defend him, but I can confirm a couple of his claims. But it's not for me to do that.
So perhaps like most of us here, some of what he says is bullshit and some of what he says is truth. By all means disagree, gee call it bullshit if you must, but play nice is perhaps all I'm asking. And not because I particularly feel the need to defend OLS but because you attacking him personally dimishes you.
And I think that does you a diservice.
fair enough. i tend to fight dirty round here with people that consistently dodge questions. it's frustrating and it's always a small handful of the same people. im willing to be respectful to people who prove they deserve respect, such as ffg. the people that dont (eg. sponger)... well, i have fun with them.
but yeah, im slightly cranky. it's finals week. im about 6 days away from the end of the hardest year of my life... and it's wearing me down. i will be so happy next week it's going to annoy the shit out of you and you'll be lecturing me on not being such a cheesy dope!
Understood, but, this argument only works if you can demonstrate that ONLY "religious" people are opposed to things such as gay marriage and abortion. There are plenty of "non-religious" folks who are opposed to them as well, and there are plenty of "religious" individuals who would prefer the whole world STFU for two fucking seconds about gay marriage and abortion and concentrate on some imprtant issues. Gay marriage and abortion legislation, besides being relatively insignificant, are not examples of forced religious belief, as there are "non-religious" individuals who are opposed as well.
I certainly never denied that there were many religious people who don't get themselves all worked up over gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. In fact, the last paragraph of my post was about those people.
For a law to be legitimate in a secular society, it must have a secular purpose. I still have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve the concept of sin. Leaving aside religious teachings, there is simply no reason not to permit any two people to marry one another. If someone who is not at all religious is opposed to it (I have never met such a person, but I'm sure one exists somewhere), I would tend to think that they've subconsciously absorbed the teachings of the dominant religions and failed to question them, because there simply is no other justification for gay marriage bans.
Issues such as abortion, birth control and stem-cell research revolve around the question of when life begins. The belief that life begins at conception cannot possibly be grounded in anything other than religion, because there is no scientific basis for it. A non-religious person can say that they believe that, but again, I've yet to hear them explain why. If it's just a feeling they have, that's not good enough ... we don't base laws on hunches. Religion and hunches and feelings are perfectly valid systems to use when making decisions in your own life, but we should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to trying to regulate the behavior of others who surely have hunches of their own.
I would also dispute that these issues are insignificant. If you are pregnant and don't want to be, or if someone you love is dying of a disease that might be cured by stem cells, they are very significant indeed.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
So we can't just have government for the people we have to always consider religion? How are we any better off with a religiously sponsored state?
i'm afraid i'm not tracking. We don't have a religiously sponsored state. And as far as a government for the people is concerned, and i hate to answer a question with a question, but, how do we have a "government for the people" and not afford a voice to all the people! Some of the people, in fact many of the people, are people of faith and/or "religion".
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
fair enough. i tend to fight dirty round here with people that consistently dodge questions. it's frustrating and it's always a small handful of the same people. im willing to be respectful to people who prove they deserve respect, such as ffg. the people that dont (eg. sponger)... well, i have fun with them.
but yeah, im slightly cranky. it's finals week. im about 6 days away from the end of the hardest year of my life... and it's wearing me down. i will be so happy next week it's going to annoy the shit out of you and you'll be lecturing me on not being such a cheesy dope!
hehe! Well doesn't that sound like Utopia?
I'll look forward to it!!
So good luck with it ss. You'll be great!! And soon enough you will be all qualified and have fancy little letters after your name.
I certainly never denied that there were many religious people who don't get themselves all worked up over gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. In fact, the last paragraph of my post was about those people.
For a law to be legitimate in a secular society, it must have a secular purpose. I still have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve the concept of sin. Leaving aside religious teachings, there is simply no reason not to permit any two people to marry one another. If someone who is not at all religious is opposed to it (I have never met such a person, but I'm sure one exists somewhere), I would tend to think that they've subconsciously absorbed the teachings of the dominant religions and failed to question them, because there simply is no other justification for gay marriage bans.
Issues such as abortion, birth control and stem-cell research revolve around the question of when life begins. The belief that life begins at conception cannot possibly be grounded in anything other than religion, because there is no scientific basis for it. A non-religious person can say that they believe that, but again, I've yet to hear them explain why. If it's just a feeling they have, that's not good enough ... we don't base laws on hunches. Religion and hunches and feelings are perfectly valid systems to use when making decisions in your own life, but we should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to trying to regulate the behavior of others who surely have hunches of their own.
I would also dispute that these issues are insignificant. If you are pregnant and don't want to be, or if someone you love is dying of a disease that might be cured by stem cells, they are very significant indeed.
First of all, as i mentioned a post ago, our society is not entirely secular. It is comprised of secular and non secular elements (i.e people) and they ALL have a voice. People will vote as they see fit and that cannot be denied or expected otherwise. Also i didn't intend that these two issues were insignificant. My point is that with our palnet being destroyed, people domestically as well as internationally literally starving in a world of plenty, young men and women being killed in criminally waged wars, etc., these two issues are RELATIVELY small.
Next, you may not have met any "non-religious" people who are opposed to gay marriage, but you're going to have to trust me on this one. There are plenty. i may be a person of faith, you may even mistakenly refer to me as religious, but my personal opposition to the idea of gay-marriage has nothing to do with said faith. Nor is it religiously influenced. There are non religious grounds for this stance. i won't go into them specifically as i have here on other occasions.
Abortion opposition is probably even more shared amongst the faithful and nonfaithful alike than is GM. No where in any holy text (that i'm aware of) does it say that "life begins at conception". That is far from a strictly religiously inspired notion.
We may not base policy and law on "hunches", nor should we base them on scientific speculation and theory but on the will of the people.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i'm afraid i'm not tracking. We don't have a religiously sponsored state. And as far as a government for the people is concerned, and i hate to answer a question with a question, but, how do we have a "government for the people" and not afford a voice to all the people! Some of the people, in fact many of the people, are people of faith and/or "religion".
we afford them a voice, by we have a government of the majority with protections for the fundamental rights of the minority. the majority can dictate policy and the direction of the country, but not at the expense of the minority. this is why we cannot pass segregation laws, cannot restrict the job options of women, and cannot deny homosexuals the same right to have a legally recognized union. reproductive rights (im talking about who you sleep with, not getting into abortion), family rights, and association are all fundamental. thus, the majority can try to mold christian policy through peace and love, but cannot strip the rights of other members of society by saying "our beliefs dont allow you, so we will marginalize you."
for this reason, i think it is flat out un-constitutional to deny homosexuals the right to marriage. personally, id rather government stop recognizing marriage all together and call them all civil unions or domestic partnerships, but since that is the term they have chosen to use, that is the term i will call it by. it is a discriminatory decision that strips gays of their fundamental right to associate with whom they want, marry, and raise their family how they choose. however, for these same reasons, i do NOT think abortion is constitutionally protected and SHOULD be left to the will of the people. personally, i am pro-choice and would vote accordingly, but it is a murky issue and it is not necessarily in the constitution unless you stretch it to the breaking point.
I certainly never denied that there were many religious people who don't get themselves all worked up over gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. In fact, the last paragraph of my post was about those people.
For a law to be legitimate in a secular society, it must have a secular purpose. I still have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve the concept of sin. Leaving aside religious teachings, there is simply no reason not to permit any two people to marry one another. If someone who is not at all religious is opposed to it (I have never met such a person, but I'm sure one exists somewhere), I would tend to think that they've subconsciously absorbed the teachings of the dominant religions and failed to question them, because there simply is no other justification for gay marriage bans.
Issues such as abortion, birth control and stem-cell research revolve around the question of when life begins. The belief that life begins at conception cannot possibly be grounded in anything other than religion, because there is no scientific basis for it. A non-religious person can say that they believe that, but again, I've yet to hear them explain why. If it's just a feeling they have, that's not good enough ... we don't base laws on hunches. Religion and hunches and feelings are perfectly valid systems to use when making decisions in your own life, but we should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to trying to regulate the behavior of others who surely have hunches of their own.
I would also dispute that these issues are insignificant. If you are pregnant and don't want to be, or if someone you love is dying of a disease that might be cured by stem cells, they are very significant indeed.
the reasoning against gay marriage is that poligamy would also have to be accepted. whether you want to accept that answer or not doesn't change the fact that if we're changing the laws to accomodate 1 minority; then we must accomodate the other. my guess is that there's more mormans wanting to legitimize thier lifestyles than gays wanting to get married.
the reasoning against gay marriage is that poligamy would also have to be accepted. whether you want to accept that answer or not doesn't change the fact that if we're changing the laws to accomodate 1 minority; then we must accomodate the other. my guess is that there's more mormans wanting to legitimize thier lifestyles than gays wanting to get married.
your guess would be wrong.
but i think we should recognize polygamy. what adults consent to do with each other is their business by and large, especially when it comes to their families. most mormons, furthermore, claim that the polygamy thing is exaggerated and not integral to their faith.
we afford them a voice, by we have a government of the majority with protections for the fundamental rights of the minority. the majority can dictate policy and the direction of the country, but not at the expense of the minority. this is why we cannot pass segregation laws, cannot restrict the job options of women, and cannot deny homosexuals the same right to have a legally recognized union. reproductive rights (im talking about who you sleep with, not getting into abortion), family rights, and association are all fundamental. thus, the majority can try to mold christian policy through peace and love, but cannot strip the rights of other members of society by saying "our beliefs dont allow you, so we will marginalize you."
.
The last time i checked, you can still legally get an abortion, and in the privacy of your own home fuck anyone you want to.
The point is people here have managed to justify their hatred of and anger towards the "religious" by playing the trump card of "forcing their beliefs on me". Thats total bullshit. Their beliefs have not been forced, voting ones belief system does not even begin to constitute an attempt to do so, and these two issues have opponets from the "religious" and "non-religious" alike.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
^ exactly the point I was trying to make. You're still free to do what you please. Forcing religion on you would be forcing you to embrace christianism (or whatever religion), go to church wether you like it or not and pay a tax to church.
My neighbour believes arabs are animals and should be shot and he votes accordingly. My mother thinks Christ is the best thing to ever happen on the face of this planet and she votes accordingly. I think neither and vote accordingly.
It's all a matter of choice, and if your state/country strips you from abortion rights and/or gay marriages ask yourself who you voted in power more than "why the fuck is the church dictating my life".
but i think we should recognize polygamy. what adults consent to do with each other is their business by and large, especially when it comes to their families. most mormons, furthermore, claim that the polygamy thing is exaggerated and not integral to their faith.
and most pot smokers when asked; will deny they smoke pot. my point being that when you're doing something illegal; you don't talk about it. living a stones throw from the utah border gives me a closer look as to what's really going on.
The last time i checked, you can still legally get an abortion, and in the privacy of your own home fuck anyone you want to.
The point is people here have managed to justify their hatred of and anger towards the "religious" by playing the trump card of "forcing their beliefs on me". Thats total bullshit. Their beliefs have not been forced, voting ones belief system does not even begin to constitute an attempt to do so, and these two issues have opponets from the "religious" and "non-religious" alike.
last i checked, in most places you cannot get married to your partner if you are gay.
you cannot deny that the majority and most vocal and outspoken opponents of gay marriage are religious. so the movement becomes associated with them. just like the environmental movements all too often gets associated with nuts like PETA. you guys brought us fred phelps and, like it or not, he's become the symbol of the movement. him and jerry "9-11 was god punishing us for accepting gays" jenkins. that's just the way the shit flies. im sorry.
but regardless of WHO is voting on gay marriage, it is improper. just as separate but equal was improper, and just as sex discrimination is improper. it's just your bad luck that most of the frustration with the movement gets directed at your religion. the frustration and anger is justified and the movement is unconstitutional. it's not our fault it's people of your religion who are making the biggest stink about it and thus dragging your religion through the mud. just like it's not your fault that PETA drags the entire environmental movement through the mud.
by all means, you are free to talk and discourage people from being gay or pursuing a gay marriage. shit, you can publish an article saying we should round them up and execute them all. but passing a law to bar them from the right to marry is unconstitutional... unless you get a constitutional amendment.
and most pot smokers when asked; will deny they smoke pot. my point being that when you're doing something illegal; you don't talk about it. living a stones throw from the utah border gives me a closer look as to what's really going on.
regardless, it should still be allowed and i think there are easily as many if not more gay people itching for a marriage as there are mormon men wanting a few more wives.
and when ive never know a pot smoker who denied it unless you were a cop or a job interviewer. by and large they dont care who knows unless they're trying to get laid by a puritan.
it's just your bad luck that most of the frustration with the movement gets directed at your religion. the frustration and anger is justified and the movement is unconstitutional. it's not our fault it's people of your religion who are making the biggest stink about it and thus dragging your religion through the mud. just like it's not your fault that PETA drags the entire environmental movement through the mud.
.
It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?
when the president of the untied states, a born again christian, is the behind a constitiutional amendment to ban gay marriages, i'm sorry, but what am i supposed to think?
when the president of the untied states, a born again christian, is the behind a constitiutional amendment to ban gay marriages, i'm sorry, but what am i supposed to think?
The president of the United States!? Are you kidding me?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?
Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!
my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too. some people oppose it because they support tradition. others don't want the door opened to other abominations.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!
i AM telling you that. i'm telling you EXACTLY that.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too. some people oppose it because they support tradition. others don't want the door opened to other abominations.
"other abominations" acknowledges it as an abomination, like with eating shellfish, an oft-use biblical term.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?
when 95% of the people speaking out loudly and publicly against gay marriage are christian and say that the reason they are against it is becos it is forbidden by the bible, it is not nonsensical or ignorant at all. it is the epitome of a reasonable belief. i can honestly say i have never met anyone who was not christian but still opposed gay marriage. nor have i ever read about any staunch opposition to gay marriage by seculars, buddhists, or anyone else.
christianity is a religion. just becos you are different from many of them does not mean the many do not exist, nor does it make people irrational from basing their perception of christians on their many with whom they are familiar as opposed to the few like you who they probably have never met or heard of. just as many people think environmentalists are crazy becos of PETA, christianity gets a bad rep becos of fred phelps. what are you so pissed off about? this is how it works and always has.
my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too.
I never said that all Christians oppose gay marriage, but that most of those who do oppose it are religious people, or people of faith, or whatever they want to call themselves.
when 95% of the people speaking out loudly and publicly against gay marriage are christian and say that the reason they are against it is becos it is forbidden by the bible, it is not nonsensical or ignorant at all. it is the epitome of a reasonable belief.
christianity is a religion. just becos you are different from many of them does not mean the many do not exist, nor does it make people irrational from basing their perception of christians on their many with whom they are familiar as opposed to the few like you who they probably have never met. just as many people think environmentalists are crazy becos of PETA, christianity gets a bad rep becos of fred phelps. what are you so pissed off about? this is how it works and always has.
95%? Really? Where did you finds this stat?
Fred Phelps? You really may be beyond help.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Abominations?! Gay marriage is an abomination now? Hmmm, I wonder where anyone got that idea ......
certainly not the bible! :rolleyes: NOBODY uses that to support their belief that gay marriage is wrong... it's purely an individual belief thing... seriously!
95%? Really? Where did you finds this stat?
Fred Phelps? You really may be beyond help.
it's an estimation from my experience speaking to people who oppose gay marriage, people who voted for th ohio ban, and every news article i've ever read that discussed the issue. i have yet to hear anything by anyone who opposed gay marriage for any reason other than religion.
Comments
It prohibits the establishment of a state sponsored religion.
This is a perfect example of why I believe that church and state should stay seperate or at the very least have limited powers.
I'm all for groups being organized and attempting to make change to policy but not when it is not serving the greater good.
And as I said before, it's not just about church and state. I am equally offended and appalled by the power wielded by big business in terms of shaping policy that affects everyone.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
So we can't just have government for the people we have to always consider religion? How are we any better off with a religiously sponsored state?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
fair enough. i tend to fight dirty round here with people that consistently dodge questions. it's frustrating and it's always a small handful of the same people. im willing to be respectful to people who prove they deserve respect, such as ffg. the people that dont (eg. sponger)... well, i have fun with them.
but yeah, im slightly cranky. it's finals week. im about 6 days away from the end of the hardest year of my life... and it's wearing me down. i will be so happy next week it's going to annoy the shit out of you and you'll be lecturing me on not being such a cheesy dope!
For a law to be legitimate in a secular society, it must have a secular purpose. I still have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve the concept of sin. Leaving aside religious teachings, there is simply no reason not to permit any two people to marry one another. If someone who is not at all religious is opposed to it (I have never met such a person, but I'm sure one exists somewhere), I would tend to think that they've subconsciously absorbed the teachings of the dominant religions and failed to question them, because there simply is no other justification for gay marriage bans.
Issues such as abortion, birth control and stem-cell research revolve around the question of when life begins. The belief that life begins at conception cannot possibly be grounded in anything other than religion, because there is no scientific basis for it. A non-religious person can say that they believe that, but again, I've yet to hear them explain why. If it's just a feeling they have, that's not good enough ... we don't base laws on hunches. Religion and hunches and feelings are perfectly valid systems to use when making decisions in your own life, but we should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to trying to regulate the behavior of others who surely have hunches of their own.
I would also dispute that these issues are insignificant. If you are pregnant and don't want to be, or if someone you love is dying of a disease that might be cured by stem cells, they are very significant indeed.
i'm afraid i'm not tracking. We don't have a religiously sponsored state. And as far as a government for the people is concerned, and i hate to answer a question with a question, but, how do we have a "government for the people" and not afford a voice to all the people! Some of the people, in fact many of the people, are people of faith and/or "religion".
hehe!
I'll look forward to it!!
So good luck with it ss.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
First of all, as i mentioned a post ago, our society is not entirely secular. It is comprised of secular and non secular elements (i.e people) and they ALL have a voice. People will vote as they see fit and that cannot be denied or expected otherwise. Also i didn't intend that these two issues were insignificant. My point is that with our palnet being destroyed, people domestically as well as internationally literally starving in a world of plenty, young men and women being killed in criminally waged wars, etc., these two issues are RELATIVELY small.
Next, you may not have met any "non-religious" people who are opposed to gay marriage, but you're going to have to trust me on this one. There are plenty. i may be a person of faith, you may even mistakenly refer to me as religious, but my personal opposition to the idea of gay-marriage has nothing to do with said faith. Nor is it religiously influenced. There are non religious grounds for this stance. i won't go into them specifically as i have here on other occasions.
Abortion opposition is probably even more shared amongst the faithful and nonfaithful alike than is GM. No where in any holy text (that i'm aware of) does it say that "life begins at conception". That is far from a strictly religiously inspired notion.
We may not base policy and law on "hunches", nor should we base them on scientific speculation and theory but on the will of the people.
we afford them a voice, by we have a government of the majority with protections for the fundamental rights of the minority. the majority can dictate policy and the direction of the country, but not at the expense of the minority. this is why we cannot pass segregation laws, cannot restrict the job options of women, and cannot deny homosexuals the same right to have a legally recognized union. reproductive rights (im talking about who you sleep with, not getting into abortion), family rights, and association are all fundamental. thus, the majority can try to mold christian policy through peace and love, but cannot strip the rights of other members of society by saying "our beliefs dont allow you, so we will marginalize you."
for this reason, i think it is flat out un-constitutional to deny homosexuals the right to marriage. personally, id rather government stop recognizing marriage all together and call them all civil unions or domestic partnerships, but since that is the term they have chosen to use, that is the term i will call it by. it is a discriminatory decision that strips gays of their fundamental right to associate with whom they want, marry, and raise their family how they choose. however, for these same reasons, i do NOT think abortion is constitutionally protected and SHOULD be left to the will of the people. personally, i am pro-choice and would vote accordingly, but it is a murky issue and it is not necessarily in the constitution unless you stretch it to the breaking point.
the reasoning against gay marriage is that poligamy would also have to be accepted. whether you want to accept that answer or not doesn't change the fact that if we're changing the laws to accomodate 1 minority; then we must accomodate the other. my guess is that there's more mormans wanting to legitimize thier lifestyles than gays wanting to get married.
once that happens ill no doubt be even more arrogant than before... and ill make you all call me soulsinging, esquire
your guess would be wrong.
but i think we should recognize polygamy. what adults consent to do with each other is their business by and large, especially when it comes to their families. most mormons, furthermore, claim that the polygamy thing is exaggerated and not integral to their faith.
The last time i checked, you can still legally get an abortion, and in the privacy of your own home fuck anyone you want to.
The point is people here have managed to justify their hatred of and anger towards the "religious" by playing the trump card of "forcing their beliefs on me". Thats total bullshit. Their beliefs have not been forced, voting ones belief system does not even begin to constitute an attempt to do so, and these two issues have opponets from the "religious" and "non-religious" alike.
My neighbour believes arabs are animals and should be shot and he votes accordingly. My mother thinks Christ is the best thing to ever happen on the face of this planet and she votes accordingly. I think neither and vote accordingly.
It's all a matter of choice, and if your state/country strips you from abortion rights and/or gay marriages ask yourself who you voted in power more than "why the fuck is the church dictating my life".
and most pot smokers when asked; will deny they smoke pot. my point being that when you're doing something illegal; you don't talk about it. living a stones throw from the utah border gives me a closer look as to what's really going on.
last i checked, in most places you cannot get married to your partner if you are gay.
you cannot deny that the majority and most vocal and outspoken opponents of gay marriage are religious. so the movement becomes associated with them. just like the environmental movements all too often gets associated with nuts like PETA. you guys brought us fred phelps and, like it or not, he's become the symbol of the movement. him and jerry "9-11 was god punishing us for accepting gays" jenkins. that's just the way the shit flies. im sorry.
but regardless of WHO is voting on gay marriage, it is improper. just as separate but equal was improper, and just as sex discrimination is improper. it's just your bad luck that most of the frustration with the movement gets directed at your religion. the frustration and anger is justified and the movement is unconstitutional. it's not our fault it's people of your religion who are making the biggest stink about it and thus dragging your religion through the mud. just like it's not your fault that PETA drags the entire environmental movement through the mud.
by all means, you are free to talk and discourage people from being gay or pursuing a gay marriage. shit, you can publish an article saying we should round them up and execute them all. but passing a law to bar them from the right to marry is unconstitutional... unless you get a constitutional amendment.
regardless, it should still be allowed and i think there are easily as many if not more gay people itching for a marriage as there are mormon men wanting a few more wives.
and when ive never know a pot smoker who denied it unless you were a cop or a job interviewer. by and large they dont care who knows unless they're trying to get laid by a puritan.
It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?
when the president of the untied states, a born again christian, is the behind a constitiutional amendment to ban gay marriages, i'm sorry, but what am i supposed to think?
my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too. some people oppose it because they support tradition. others don't want the door opened to other abominations.
"other abominations" acknowledges it as an abomination, like with eating shellfish, an oft-use biblical term.
when 95% of the people speaking out loudly and publicly against gay marriage are christian and say that the reason they are against it is becos it is forbidden by the bible, it is not nonsensical or ignorant at all. it is the epitome of a reasonable belief. i can honestly say i have never met anyone who was not christian but still opposed gay marriage. nor have i ever read about any staunch opposition to gay marriage by seculars, buddhists, or anyone else.
christianity is a religion. just becos you are different from many of them does not mean the many do not exist, nor does it make people irrational from basing their perception of christians on their many with whom they are familiar as opposed to the few like you who they probably have never met or heard of. just as many people think environmentalists are crazy becos of PETA, christianity gets a bad rep becos of fred phelps. what are you so pissed off about? this is how it works and always has.
And where did those traditions originate?
Abominations?! Gay marriage is an abomination now? Hmmm, I wonder where anyone got that idea ......
Fred Phelps? You really may be beyond help.
certainly not the bible! :rolleyes: NOBODY uses that to support their belief that gay marriage is wrong... it's purely an individual belief thing... seriously!
it's an estimation from my experience speaking to people who oppose gay marriage, people who voted for th ohio ban, and every news article i've ever read that discussed the issue. i have yet to hear anything by anyone who opposed gay marriage for any reason other than religion.