why not? prayer is like focusing on something.... like God. just like meditating... you focus on something and it can also be God.
but if you mean prayer like, "oh, God, I pray that you get me out of this one." then that's the same thing as you mention, "I hope."
but prayer as in the kind that makes you cry, pout, boohoo and weep and do all sorts of things... that's meditating. i probably sound like an idiot to you.
Well, I'm not sure about this dnb.
My understanding is that prayer is the focus on making a connection with God whereas the practice of meditation in it's most basic form is to empty the mind of all thought and relax the body. I think that prayer can be meditative and meditation can definately be about prayer, but I do believe although similar, they are actually different. Well just my take on it anyway.
I'm not making fun of them. I'm just stating what experiments have shown. I'm not talking about light prayers by a moderate religious person. I'm talking about lengthy prayers of a deeply religious person. Or how a moderately religious person might feel at a particular gathering with other deeply religious people.
I'm just trying to understand how me meditating is the same as me praying.
Because I'm not seeing the link personally.
Personally. I think you are being irrational.
I made a clear and concise statement and provided the source of my claims. If you want to prove Newberg wrong, then all the power to you, I'd like to see that.
Strassman says that every night when we sleep our pineal gland produces dimethyltryptamine in our brains causing us to tryp out, i.e. dream.
I don't know what these people are doing wrong besides challenging your beliefs with observable evidence. Although typically they are taken to mean that spirituality is significant in some supernatural way.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I made a clear and concise statement and provided the source of my claims. If you want to prove Newberg wrong, then all the power to you, I'd like to see that.
Strassman says that every night when we sleep our pineal gland produces dimethyltryptamine in our brains causing us to tryp out, i.e. dream.
I don't know what these people are doing wrong besides challenging your beliefs with observable evidence. Although typically they are taken to mean that spirituality is significant in some supernatural way.
Oh my god! Are you incapable of answering a valid question without putting your own twisted perspective on it?
I'm not refuting Newberg, I simply asked the question didn't he also do studies and experiments on people meditating who had no previous experience meditating and that also had no religious affiliation?
I thought that was the case and wondered why you didn't post a link with that information.
They aren't challenging my beliefs. I'm simply questioning why it is that the people in the experiment have already indicated they have religious preferences. And wondering what the outcome would be if this was not the case. Simple. Don't go reading anything into it. Just take it at face value.
And knock it off with the demeaning my mental abilities thanks.
It doesn't make you any more appealing.
Oh my god! Are you incapable of answering a valid question without putting your own twisted perspective on it?
I'm not refuting Newberg, I simply asked the question didn't he also do studies and experiments on people meditating who had no previous experience meditating and that also had no religious affiliation?
I thought that was the case and wondered why you didn't post a link with that information.
They aren't challenging my beliefs. I'm simply questioning why it is that the people in the experiment have already indicated they have religious preferences. And wondering what the outcome would be if this was not the case. Simple. Don't go reading anything into it. Just take it at face value.
And knock it off with the demeaning my mental abilities thanks.
It doesn't make you any more appealing.
I wasn't demeaning your mental abilities, I was speculating on your brain state.
I don't know about the experiments you mention, if you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it. I've wondered if Michael Persinger's experiments were ever tested on people besides Christians, but I can only think to e-mail him about that.
Anyway, I think I am taking it at face value.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I wasn't demeaning your mental abilities, I was speculating on your brain state.
I don't know about the experiments you mention, if you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it. I've wondered if Michael Persinger's experiments were ever tested on people besides Christians, but I can only think to e-mail him about that.
Anyway, I think I am taking it at face value.
Isn't this the guy that was working with Newberg?
Or am I confusing him?
Not much of an article I agree, but there are others I'm sure. Will just take some time to trawl through and find them.
If Homosexuality is a sin, why did god make gay penguins?
Ha ha ha! Awesome!
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Yea, I watched a 2 hour lecture given at a university on TM.
But how is this different than prayer Jeanie?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, I watched a 2 hour lecture given at a university on TM.
But how is this different than prayer Jeanie?
Well the intention for starters. :rolleyes: You aren't being silly are you? I would have thought it was fairly obvious, in that if your intention is to meditate and not to commune with god or a higher power then your meditation would be different to someone praying.
It's not easy to find studies on meditation that aren't colored by religion but more and more doctors are encouraging patients to use meditation for its health benefits as well as an alternative to medication, particularly anaesthetic. This also applies to self hypnosis.
For that argument to hold water, God would have had to create the original penguins as gay; if those penguins weren't gay, couldn't it be genetic mutation subsequent to sin and imperfection entering the world?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I don't understand the gay issue.
Religious powers/establishement is stupid to say "god hate fags", "gays will go to hell if they don't repent" etc.
But the opposing side is just as stupid. You can't expect a christian church to just say that they were wrong, being gay is ok, as is having extramarital relationships and any other issue. Christian religions values mariage and the gift of life. I dislike the church's position on such subjects but I'd despise the church if they acted like hypocrites toward their beliefs to suit the feelings of a population.
We, normally, all live in a democratic place where we are allowed to practise the lifestyle we wish. The churches are present to give recommendation to their followers. You don't like what they say? Don't follow what they say. As citizens your only duties are to follow the laws of your republic.
i'm glad you brought that up. why would an athiest participate in a debate about religion? i'm not talking about a debate where the question of whether God exists or not; just a general religious thread. in my years here; i've seen many good religious threads bombarded with athiests changing the original question and making it a debate whether God exists or not. why can't athiests respect others to talk about a subject matter even though they do not believe in the subject matter? in other words; why can't they let people of religion discuss a subject they choose to discuss? it gives the impression that athiests are rude and disrespectful which leads one to believe that thier ignorant behavior is because they don't believe in God. if they don't want to hear people go on about God; don't open a religious thread.
Cause everybody has their two cents they want to ante to the pot. My two cents.
Plus some people as myself who were raised catholic and went to the schools and were taught all the stories, decided that there is a problem with the stories, the world and the way the two mesh. Thus they have the best of both worlds.
I don't understand the gay issue.
Religious powers/establishement is stupid to say "god hate fags", "gays will go to hell if they don't repent" etc.
But the opposing side is just as stupid. You can't expect a christian church to just say that they were wrong, being gay is ok, as is having extramarital relationships and any other issue. Christian religions values mariage and the gift of life. I dislike the church's position on such subjects but I'd despise the church if they acted like hypocrites toward their beliefs to suit the feelings of a population.
We, normally, all live in a democratic place where we are allowed to practise the lifestyle we wish. The churches are present to give recommendation to their followers. You don't like what they say? Don't follow what they say. As citizens your only duties are to follow the laws of your republic.
I have no problem with that except that religious organizations lobby for the law to be enacted as they deem appropriate. The state should act for all its citizens regardless of their color, creed, sexual persuasion, religious beliefs, abilities and disabilities etc. Unfortunately because of churches lobbying not all people are treated equally in the eyes of the state. Church influences state. That is wrong. Church and state should be separate. I also believe corporation and state should be separate.
Church influences state. That is wrong. Church and state should be separate. I also believe corporation and state should be separate.
All modern democracies have the church/state separation. The church has no rights to hand out laws or even lobby for a law. Their only right is to express an opinion. That's why I don't understand the attacks, Churches express opinions, like everyone else, and we all disagree, like every other time. What is such a big deal?
Believe what you like, but when you start trying to pass legislation, you're making your religion my business, and you're damn right I'm going to argue with you about it. When you try to tell my daughters what they can and can't do with their bodies, or my gay friends that they're not entitled to the same rights that I have, because your god tells you that what they want to do is a sin, you'd better be able to show that god to me and prove that he exists and that your beliefs are irrefutably the devine word of god. all.
Understood, but, this argument only works if you can demonstrate that ONLY "religious" people are opposed to things such as gay marriage and abortion. There are plenty of "non-religious" folks who are opposed to them as well, and there are plenty of "religious" individuals who would prefer the whole world STFU for two fucking seconds about gay marriage and abortion and concentrate on some imprtant issues. Gay marriage and abortion legislation, besides being relatively insignificant, are not examples of forced religious belief, as there are "non-religious" individuals who are opposed as well.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Understood, but, this argument only works if you can demonstrate that ONLY "religious" people are opposed to things such as gay marriage and abortion. There are plenty of "non-religious" folks who are opposed to them as well, and there are plenty of "religious" individuals who would prefer the whole world STFU for two fucking seconds about gay marriage and abortion and concentrate on some imprtant issues. Gay marriage and abortion legislation, besides being relatively insignificant, are not examples of forced religious belief, as there are "non-religious" individuals who are opposed as well.
i might also add that everyone, "religious" or otherwise, is going to vote their beliefs on such issues, and you can't expect them not to. If someone were to vote for something, anything, that i, personally am opposed to, i can't really accuse them of "forcing their beliefs onto me.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
All modern democracies have the church/state separation. The church has no rights to hand out laws or even lobby for a law. Their only right is to express an opinion. That's why I don't understand the attacks, Churches express opinions, like everyone else, and we all disagree, like every other time. What is such a big deal?
Kann I agree that in principle all modern democracies are supposed to have a seperation between church and state. I just don't agree that church isn't a powerful lobby that influences legislature. And I think this is happening more and more in the current world climate. Almost seemingly as a backlash.
And it is getting harder and harder to demand that church and state remain seperate. I don't have a problem with churches expressing their opinions but I do have a problem when they are able to successfully use their power to mandate outside of their juristiction. That is a big deal and it should concern everyone. Church supporters and non church supporters alike.
And as I said the same applies to corporations.
Kann I agree that in principle all modern democracies are supposed to have a seperation between church and state. I just don't agree that church isn't a powerful lobby that influences legislature. And I think this is happening more and more in the current world climate. Almost seemingly as a backlash.
And it is getting harder and harder to demand that church and state remain seperate. I don't have a problem with churches expressing their opinions but I do have a problem when they are able to successfully use their power to mandate outside of their juristiction. That is a big deal and it should concern everyone. Church supporters and non church supporters alike.
And as I said the same applies to corporations.
i think it's impossible to have "church" or religion not involved in gov't. Gov't is composed of people with various religions. I agree that individual churches shouldn't nec tell people who to vote for, but I think that religious organizations have every right that non-religious organizations have in lobbying congress. A lobby group is just a group of people who feel that some cause is worthwhile and they want their side heard and their opinion represented and legislated.
I think that we should not have a state mandated religion...i.e iran. There should never be a law saying you have to practice christianity or any other religion or you cannot practice any religion. But as was said earlier, there are both religious and non religious people who share similar views on all the controversial issues on both sides of the issues.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Kann I agree that in principle all modern democracies are supposed to have a seperation between church and state. I just don't agree that church isn't a powerful lobby that influences legislature. And I think this is happening more and more in the current world climate. Almost seemingly as a backlash.
And it is getting harder and harder to demand that church and state remain seperate. I don't have a problem with churches expressing their opinions but I do have a problem when they are able to successfully use their power to mandate outside of their juristiction. That is a big deal and it should concern everyone. Church supporters and non church supporters alike.
And as I said the same applies to corporations.
EVERYTHING has a lobby behind it. The NRA, NOW, ASPCA, etc. The country is run by special interst groups from all walks, and separation of church and state, in absoluteley no way, bars religion or faith from public, political discourse. That simply is not what separation of church and state does or is intended to do.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
im reasonably certain they dont exist. onelongsong is the biggest imaginary shit talker on here. he's made more wild, unsubstantiated claims than anyone i know round here. he's a former rock star, medical miracle, milita man, has killed 2 people, a practicing attorney who has never been beaten, a buffalo rancher, and now, apparently, the sole keeper of 619 commandments wired directly to him by god.
new motion: atheists and christians be damned. we should all be worshipping onelongsong, cos he CLEARLY is god's gift to this message board! a regular renaissance man.
i planned on asking why i have to discuss my life story every time i participate in a thread; only to have you twist my words and cause me to straighten the story out. but instead; i wonder if your life is so pitiful that you have not made accomplishments in your life. or maybe your scope of life is so narrow that you can't imagine someone making several accomplishments in thier life. i've done more than most people could do in 2 lifetimes; but that's because i live my life to the fullest.
as a loyola alumni; i took many years of theology. the 619 commandments are in the koran. if you'd like to learn more; the history channel runs a program explaining how they are connected with modern laws. you can verify that for yourself. it's not my job to teach you every time i sign in. i can only imagine that your attacks are spawned by jealousy. instead of looking at what others have done; why not look at what you can do. set goals for yourself and follow them through. i won't tell you the secret. you'll have to discover that on your own.
I have no problem with that except that religious organizations lobby for the law to be enacted as they deem appropriate. The state should act for all its citizens regardless of their color, creed, sexual persuasion, religious beliefs, abilities and disabilities etc. Unfortunately because of churches lobbying not all people are treated equally in the eyes of the state. Church influences state. That is wrong. Church and state should be separate. I also believe corporation and state should be separate.
I am a very faithful christian, and I agree with you, state and church should be seperate. Is George Bush a christian??? I don't think so, no true christian could justify a war for oil. But man, saying you're a christian works well to get mindless christian drones to vote for you! You can do anything you want if people believe you when you say God is on your side.
EVERYTHING has a lobby behind it. The NRA, NOW, ASPCA, etc. The country is run by special interst groups from all walks, and separation of church and state, in absoluteley no way, bars religion or faith from public, political discourse. That simply is not what separation of church and state does or is intended to do.
Comments
In a physiological sense?
Meditation also affects blood flow, breathing and heart rate, as well as has overall health benefits.
These things do not seem to be symptomatic of prayer.
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You're killing me.
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Well, I'm not sure about this dnb.
My understanding is that prayer is the focus on making a connection with God whereas the practice of meditation in it's most basic form is to empty the mind of all thought and relax the body. I think that prayer can be meditative and meditation can definately be about prayer, but I do believe although similar, they are actually different. Well just my take on it anyway.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Didn't this same doctor also do experiments on people who had not been regular meditators? Where are the results of that study?
I find it interesting that the people used in this study had already prescribed to a religious doctrine, either as the reason to meditate or to pray.
How about people that have no religious affiliations that meditate?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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I am? Sorry. Not trying to.
I'm just trying to understand how me meditating is the same as me praying.
Because I'm not seeing the link personally.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Personally. I think you are being irrational.
I made a clear and concise statement and provided the source of my claims. If you want to prove Newberg wrong, then all the power to you, I'd like to see that.
Strassman says that every night when we sleep our pineal gland produces dimethyltryptamine in our brains causing us to tryp out, i.e. dream.
I don't know what these people are doing wrong besides challenging your beliefs with observable evidence. Although typically they are taken to mean that spirituality is significant in some supernatural way.
Oh my god! Are you incapable of answering a valid question without putting your own twisted perspective on it?
I'm not refuting Newberg, I simply asked the question didn't he also do studies and experiments on people meditating who had no previous experience meditating and that also had no religious affiliation?
I thought that was the case and wondered why you didn't post a link with that information.
They aren't challenging my beliefs. I'm simply questioning why it is that the people in the experiment have already indicated they have religious preferences. And wondering what the outcome would be if this was not the case. Simple. Don't go reading anything into it. Just take it at face value.
And knock it off with the demeaning my mental abilities thanks.
It doesn't make you any more appealing.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I wasn't demeaning your mental abilities, I was speculating on your brain state.
I don't know about the experiments you mention, if you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it. I've wondered if Michael Persinger's experiments were ever tested on people besides Christians, but I can only think to e-mail him about that.
Anyway, I think I am taking it at face value.
Isn't this the guy that was working with Newberg?
Or am I confusing him?
Not much of an article I agree, but there are others I'm sure. Will just take some time to trawl through and find them.
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030424-000003.html
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn
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http://www.umassmed.edu/behavmed/faculty/kabat-zinn.cfm
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Ha ha ha! Awesome!
-C Addison
http://media.www.dailytrojan.com/media/storage/paper679/news/2004/04/05/News/Meditation.Inspires.Health.Benefits-650823.shtml
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But how is this different than prayer Jeanie?
Well the intention for starters. :rolleyes: You aren't being silly are you?
It's not easy to find studies on meditation that aren't colored by religion but more and more doctors are encouraging patients to use meditation for its health benefits as well as an alternative to medication, particularly anaesthetic. This also applies to self hypnosis.
So where is the link to the lecture please?
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For that argument to hold water, God would have had to create the original penguins as gay; if those penguins weren't gay, couldn't it be genetic mutation subsequent to sin and imperfection entering the world?
Religious powers/establishement is stupid to say "god hate fags", "gays will go to hell if they don't repent" etc.
But the opposing side is just as stupid. You can't expect a christian church to just say that they were wrong, being gay is ok, as is having extramarital relationships and any other issue. Christian religions values mariage and the gift of life. I dislike the church's position on such subjects but I'd despise the church if they acted like hypocrites toward their beliefs to suit the feelings of a population.
We, normally, all live in a democratic place where we are allowed to practise the lifestyle we wish. The churches are present to give recommendation to their followers. You don't like what they say? Don't follow what they say. As citizens your only duties are to follow the laws of your republic.
Cause everybody has their two cents they want to ante to the pot. My two cents.
Plus some people as myself who were raised catholic and went to the schools and were taught all the stories, decided that there is a problem with the stories, the world and the way the two mesh. Thus they have the best of both worlds.
I have no problem with that except that religious organizations lobby for the law to be enacted as they deem appropriate. The state should act for all its citizens regardless of their color, creed, sexual persuasion, religious beliefs, abilities and disabilities etc. Unfortunately because of churches lobbying not all people are treated equally in the eyes of the state. Church influences state. That is wrong. Church and state should be separate. I also believe corporation and state should be separate.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Where do you get this shit?!
Du hast ein vogel im kopf!
Understood, but, this argument only works if you can demonstrate that ONLY "religious" people are opposed to things such as gay marriage and abortion. There are plenty of "non-religious" folks who are opposed to them as well, and there are plenty of "religious" individuals who would prefer the whole world STFU for two fucking seconds about gay marriage and abortion and concentrate on some imprtant issues. Gay marriage and abortion legislation, besides being relatively insignificant, are not examples of forced religious belief, as there are "non-religious" individuals who are opposed as well.
i might also add that everyone, "religious" or otherwise, is going to vote their beliefs on such issues, and you can't expect them not to. If someone were to vote for something, anything, that i, personally am opposed to, i can't really accuse them of "forcing their beliefs onto me.
Kann I agree that in principle all modern democracies are supposed to have a seperation between church and state. I just don't agree that church isn't a powerful lobby that influences legislature. And I think this is happening more and more in the current world climate. Almost seemingly as a backlash.
And it is getting harder and harder to demand that church and state remain seperate. I don't have a problem with churches expressing their opinions but I do have a problem when they are able to successfully use their power to mandate outside of their juristiction. That is a big deal and it should concern everyone. Church supporters and non church supporters alike.
And as I said the same applies to corporations.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
i think it's impossible to have "church" or religion not involved in gov't. Gov't is composed of people with various religions. I agree that individual churches shouldn't nec tell people who to vote for, but I think that religious organizations have every right that non-religious organizations have in lobbying congress. A lobby group is just a group of people who feel that some cause is worthwhile and they want their side heard and their opinion represented and legislated.
I think that we should not have a state mandated religion...i.e iran. There should never be a law saying you have to practice christianity or any other religion or you cannot practice any religion. But as was said earlier, there are both religious and non religious people who share similar views on all the controversial issues on both sides of the issues.
EVERYTHING has a lobby behind it. The NRA, NOW, ASPCA, etc. The country is run by special interst groups from all walks, and separation of church and state, in absoluteley no way, bars religion or faith from public, political discourse. That simply is not what separation of church and state does or is intended to do.
i planned on asking why i have to discuss my life story every time i participate in a thread; only to have you twist my words and cause me to straighten the story out. but instead; i wonder if your life is so pitiful that you have not made accomplishments in your life. or maybe your scope of life is so narrow that you can't imagine someone making several accomplishments in thier life. i've done more than most people could do in 2 lifetimes; but that's because i live my life to the fullest.
as a loyola alumni; i took many years of theology. the 619 commandments are in the koran. if you'd like to learn more; the history channel runs a program explaining how they are connected with modern laws. you can verify that for yourself. it's not my job to teach you every time i sign in. i can only imagine that your attacks are spawned by jealousy. instead of looking at what others have done; why not look at what you can do. set goals for yourself and follow them through. i won't tell you the secret. you'll have to discover that on your own.
I am a very faithful christian, and I agree with you, state and church should be seperate. Is George Bush a christian??? I don't think so, no true christian could justify a war for oil. But man, saying you're a christian works well to get mindless christian drones to vote for you! You can do anything you want if people believe you when you say God is on your side.
Ok so what is intened to do then?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift