Hezbollah started this

farfromglorified

Puck78 wrote:

I don't find it wise to compare who killed more people. Being peace activist means to ask to stop the violence in both the sides, full stop.

Well said.

danmac

Puck78 wrote:

I don't find it wise to compare who killed more people. Being peace activist means to ask to stop the violence in both the sides, full stop.

On one hand, you are of course a hundred per cent correct, but on the other, without the world knowing the exact numbers, an example of this "balance and restraint", as well as the numbers which demonstrate 60 years of Israeli oppression towards all people Palestinian, we will not establish the root cause, we will not achieve peace.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

On one hand, you are of course a hundred per cent correct, but on the other, without the world knowing the exact numbers, an example of this "balance and restraint", as well as the numbers which demonstrate 60 years of Israeli oppression towards all people Palestinian, we will not establish the root cause, we will not achieve peace.

The reason you will not achieve peace is because of blind hate. And you have demonstrated that throughout your posts on this topic. But, by all means, keep looking for "root cause" in casualty figures. I wish you luck.

Puck78

danmac wrote:

On one hand, you are of course a hundred per cent correct, but on the other, without the world knowing the exact numbers, an example of this "balance and restraint", as well as the numbers which demonstrate 60 years of Israeli oppression towards all people Palestinian, we will not establish the root cause, we will not achieve peace.

I agree with you about the unbiased reports by the media: for personal experience both in the UK and in Italy i see big titles for palestinian kamikaze, but zero reports for the other, continuous, human rights violation by israel.
This will lead people to blame palestine first.
However: we're informed people, you are a very well informed person, so we can use the knowledge of what happen in both the sides and ask for an end of all the human rights violations in both the sides.

shiraz

Byrnzie wrote:

Man, is there any way you can get out of the country for a week or two, or until this shit blows over? (You can crash at mine if your able to put up with all the Chomsky books I've got laying around the place )

Thanks, I got lots of friends & family in other parts of Israel but still, I think I would like to stay right were I am, and I can't really explain/know why. maybe because home is where the heart is...and there's also less chance for me to run into too many Chomsky books (-:

BTW 1: I meant Hizbollah will kill and kidnap UK soliders inside the UK.

BTW 2: I was more interesting in the other part of my question - spain, a country who once occupied Iraq but decided to moved out in some point (like Israel moved out of Lebanon, though it took us 20 years). What would you say If Hizbollah had gone to spain, killed and kidnapped some soliders inside spain as an act of solidarity with the Iraqi people, and than ran away back to Lebanon?

===============

PaperPlates: I use cable internet, and in Isarel that kind of infrastructure is located beneath the ground so... Besides minor problems with the electricity power (which are being repaired very quickly) there's nothing wrong with my internet connection.

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

The reason you will not achieve peace is because of blind hate. And you have demonstrated that throughout your posts on this topic. But, by all means, keep looking for "root cause" in casualty figures. I wish you luck.

Blind hate against whom? The Israeli goverment? Of course, ill hold my hands up to that.

To find the root cause, you look at who invaded whom. WW2? Germany invaded Poland. Simple. 1978, Israel invaded Lebanon, as it did again in 1982. Then Hezbollah was created. Blame is very easy to find there.

who is starving and dealing withering death upon the 1.35 million people of Gaza?
again, easy to find blame right there.

6 million dead in the Jewish holocaust. Mmmmm, can i use those figures to attach blame to Germany? Or does that contradict your point?

Sorry, the point you were making is what...?

Eva7

danmac wrote:

On one hand, you are of course a hundred per cent correct, but on the other, without the world knowing the exact numbers, an example of this "balance and restraint", as well as the numbers which demonstrate 60 years of Israeli oppression towards all people Palestinian, we will not establish the root cause, we will not achieve peace.

Danmac, I think peace starts from our ability to respect anyone. If we fail to do so, we can't expect our governments to do so. I understand perfectly your reasons, but one thing is to debate, another thing is the human relationship and the good we wish for others, no matter what their ideas are. I don't agree most of what Shiraz has to say, but I want her to stay safe and keep talking to us. Consider that she is a first hand witness of what is going on, and this is very important. I am sure there's something we all can learn from her right now, despite our political ideas.

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

BTW 1: I meant Hizbollah will kill and kidnap UK soliders inside the UK.

BTW 2: I was more interesting in the other part of my question - spain, a country who once occupied Iraq but decided to moved out in some point (like Israel moved out of Lebanon, though it took us 20 years). What would you say If Hizbollah had gone to spain, killed and kidnapped some soliders inside spain as an act of solidarity with the Iraqi people, and than ran away back to Lebanon?

1. I'd understand it.
2. Israel are still occupying large parts of the West bank. They also re-entered Gaza and caused massive destruction e.t.c. If Spain hadn't left Iraq and were doing the same there, then I'd understand a group like Hizbollah acting in support of the oppressed.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

Blind hate against whom? The Israeli goverment? Of course, ill hold my hands up to that.

I know you will. And that's not something to be proud of.

To find the root cause, you look at who invaded whom. WW2? Germany invaded Poland. Simple. 1978, Israel invaded Lebanon, as it did again in 1982. Then Hezbollah was created. Blame is very easy to find there.

You equate "root cause" to blame? Based on your standard above, wouldn't Israel leaving Lebanon remove that cause? Or does your morality allow for infinite redress of any wrong? Wouldn't that allow Israel to do as it wishes to Egypt? Wouldn't that allow many Arab nations the right to do as they wish to Britian? Wouldn't that allow India to drop a nuke on Chester?

who is starving and dealing withering death upon the 1.35 million people of Gaza?
again, easy to find blame right there.

It is easy to find blame for that. And it is easy to find blame for who is dealing death upon the people of Israel. But that won't tell you a damn thing about why death is being dealt.

6 million dead in the Jewish holocaust. Mmmmm, can i use those figures to attach blame to Germany? Or does that contradict your point?

You can attach blame to Germany.

Sorry, the point you were making is what...?

The point is quite simple. Hate is the root cause. And a casualty figure isn't going to tell you a damn thing about how to fix it.

shiraz

Byrnzie wrote:

1. I'd understand it.
2. Israel are still occupying large parts of the West bank. They also re-entered Gaza and caused massive destruction e.t.c. If Spain hadn't left Iraq and were doing the same there, then I'd understand a group like Hizbollah acting in support of the oppressed.

1. Understanding is one thing, justifying & accepting it is another. And I wonder whether the UK gov would sit quietally if such thing whould actually happen. What do you think?

2. For the sake of the debate, lets pretend spain is occuping some parts of Morocco. What would you think then?

danmac

shiraz wrote:

1. Understanding is one thing, justifying & accepting it is another. And I wonder whether the UK gov would sit quietally if such thing whould actually happen. What do you think?

2. For the sake of the debate, lets pretend spain is occuping some parts of Morocco. What would you think then?

For the sake of debate, can you stop hypothesising about one country doing this, or one group doing that, and stick to the fact that YOUR COUNTRY is actually, now, today, oppressing and murdering those in another country.

I asked you some questions.

When, where, and to whom have I ever supported this British Governments illegal actions in Iraq?

When, where, and to whom have I ever condoned the Iraqi 'insurgents', freedom fighters, for fighting this British Governments illegal actions in Iraq?

Civilains are dying in Lebanon following (yet another the third or fourth is it this time?) an act of illegal invasion and oppression.

What came first, an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or the creation of Hezbollah?

Puck78

shiraz wrote:

1. Understanding is one thing, justifying & accepting it is another. And I wonder whether the UK gov would sit quietally if such thing whould actually happen. What do you think?

2. For the sake of the debate, lets pretend spain is occuping some parts of Morocco. What would you think then?

1. oh, we all agree that the Uk would use all its weapons. The use of weapons is so good for the economy. This doesn't mean that i would agree. But it is really interesting how people of a country using extreme violence against a second country tend to start to committ human rights violations against the people of the second country, after a while. An example, that i've already reported somewhere else, about this is kosovo: while at the beginning just the serb government repressed the albanian population in kosovo, after a while also the serb people started to perpetuate human rights violations.

2. two years ago morocco invaded a little island. The aznar government wasn't very happy about it. I would be curious about the reactions of zapatero. surely i admire him for opening talks with ETA.

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

I know you will. And that's not something to be proud of.



You equate "root cause" to blame? Based on your standard above, wouldn't Israel leaving Lebanon remove that cause? Or does your morality allow for infinite redress of any wrong? Wouldn't that allow Israel to do as it wishes to Egypt? Wouldn't that allow many Arab nations the right to do as they wish to Britian? Wouldn't that allow India to drop a nuke on Chester?

quote]

1) Why, in which warped world do you know of, is it not proud to admit to a hatred of oppressive regimes?

China, Israel, Zimbabwe, Indonesia (under Suharto), the US and the UK. Governments, which I 'hate' and the actions carried out by those governments. Murder, exploitation, torture, genocide. These goverments carry them out, and I am damned proud to stand against that. You are obviously a very different type of human being. And its that which is not a proud thing.

2)


"You equate "root cause" to blame? Based on your standard above, wouldn't Israel leaving Lebanon remove that cause? Or does your morality allow for infinite redress of any wrong? Wouldn't that allow Israel to do as it wishes to Egypt? Wouldn't that allow many Arab nations the right to do as they wish to Britian? Wouldn't that allow India to drop a nuke on Chester?"

I fail to find any coherence or releavence to the world as it stands, in reality, to this statement.

What came first, Israeli invasions of Lebanon, or the creation of an organisation to defend the peoples of Lebanon from said invasion?

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

1. Understanding is one thing, justifying & accepting it is another. And I wonder whether the UK gov would sit quietally if such thing whould actually happen. What do you think?

2. For the sake of the debate, lets pretend spain is occuping some parts of Morocco. What would you think then?

Man, enough of this hypothetical stuff already. You must have grasped my point of view on this shit by now. I would understand/empathize with/ the actions of a group of people driven to war/terrorism by the provocations of a huge military force like Israel, Britain, or the U.S. If the U.S invaded Venezuela then I'd expect other Latin American countries to come to their aid, in whatever guise.
I mean, shit, what were the French resistance if not terrorists in the eyes of Germans? What was the ANC? Were the Vietcong also terrorists?
Have you seen a film called 'The Battle of Algiers'? If not, check it out.

danmac

Eva7 wrote:

Danmac, I think peace starts from our ability to respect anyone. If we fail to do so, we can't expect our governments to do so. I understand perfectly your reasons, but one thing is to debate, another thing is the human relationship and the good we wish for others, no matter what their ideas are. I don't agree most of what Shiraz has to say, but I want her to stay safe and keep talking to us. Consider that she is a first hand witness of what is going on, and this is very important. I am sure there's something we all can learn from her right now, despite our political ideas.

I can't remember offering an opinion or otherwide with regards to this persons safety or life at all. It matters not to me the personal position of a person i know nothing about bar his/her support of continued oppression.

"Oh sorry, got to go, bombs are dropping," that kind of vein attempt to curry fervour (sp?) does not wash with me when I know, and she knows, and we all know, there are 1.35 million people, a third of whom children, locked behind a wall of concrete and barbed wire, who have a shorter life span that Shiraz and her countrymen, who have limited, if any, access to clean running water, sixty miles down the coast in Gaza. How many people there have the good fortune to find bomb shelters, or medical treatment which wil cure them of malaria and dengue fever that runs rampant through the slums of the Gaza ghetto.

There is nothing to be learned from somebody who so easily discounts the suffering people just miles from her doorstep, merely on the basis of belief and or the desire to free themselves from the oppression wrought upon them by the government she supports.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

1) Why, in which warped world do you know of, is it not proud to admit to a hatred of oppressive regimes?

The warped world in which some oppression is hated and other oppression is defended.

You do not hate oppression. If you hated oppression you would hate the fact that Hezbollah is deliberately putting civilians in the line of fire as much as you hate the nation doing to firing. If you hated oppression you would hate the fact that these "freedom fighters" have declared that Israel and the Israeli people have no right to exist and they will stop at nothing to eradicate them. You do not hate oppression because as you said above you hate blindly.

China, Israel, Zimbabwe, Indonesia (under Suharto), the US and the UK. Governments, which I 'hate' and the actions carried out by those governments. Murder, exploitation, torture, genocide. These goverments carry them out, and I am damned proud to stand against that. You are obviously a very different type of human being. And its that which is not a proud thing.

I do not support those things, nor do I support the murders, exploitations, tortures or genocides of the Russians, the Syrians, Hezbollah, the Germans, Al Qaeda, etc. Furthermore, I would not support in any way a response from any idenfitied "victim" that simply mirrors the crimes against them.

I fail to find any coherence or releavence to the world as it stands, in reality, to this statement.

What came first, Israeli invasions of Lebanon, or the creation of an organisation to defend the peoples of Lebanon from said invasion?

The Israeli invasions of Lebanon came before the establishment of Hezbollah. And the Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon preceded these attacks. Does the linearity of history absolve Hezbollah from playing by the same moral rules as you propose for the Israelis?

Byrnzie

farfromglorified wrote:

The Israeli invasions of Lebanon came before the establishment of Hezbollah. And the Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon preceded these attacks. Does the linearity of history absolve Hezbollah from playing by the same moral rules as you propose for the Israelis?

And did the re-occupation of Gaza by the IDF not occur before Hizbollah kidnapped the Israeli soldiers?

farfromglorified

Byrnzie wrote:

And did the re-occupation of Gaza by the IDF not occur before Hizbollah kidnapped the Israeli soldiers?

Certainly, yes. And that was in turn preceded by the capture of a soldier by militants in Gaza.

Perhaps you missed the question in my post:

Does the linearity of history absolve Hezbollah from playing by the same moral rules as you propose for the Israelis?

Eva7

danmac wrote:

I can't remember offering an opinion or otherwide with regards to this persons safety or life at all. It matters not to me the personal position of a person i know nothing about bar his/her support of continued oppression.

"Oh sorry, got to go, bombs are dropping," that kind of vein attempt to curry fervour (sp?) does not wash with me when I know, and she knows, and we all know, there are 1.35 million people, a third of whom children, locked behind a wall of concrete and barbed wire, who have a shorter life span that Shiraz and her countrymen, who have limited, if any, access to clean running water, sixty miles down the coast in Gaza. How many people there have the good fortune to find bomb shelters, or medical treatment which wil cure them of malaria and dengue fever that runs rampant through the slums of the Gaza ghetto.

There is nothing to be learned from somebody who so easily discounts the suffering people just miles from her doorstep, merely on the basis of belief and or the desire to free themselves from the oppression wrought upon them by the government she supports.

sorry if I said something wrong, but you seem to forget you're talking to someone who is under the bombs, with all the emotional involvement... I mean, the fact that you think you don't have anything to learn from someone who is actually under the bombs, despite which side he/she is, to me it is not quite a "peace promoter" attitude. Peace is built by showing respect to any human being. what I am trying to say is that the step from missing the attempt to understand the reasons of the other to violence, war and aggression is short. War always starts with missing such attempt.

farfromglorified

Eva7 wrote:

sorry if I said something wrong, but you seem to forget you're talking to someone who is under the bombs, with all the emotional involvement... I mean, the fact that you think you don't have anything to learn from someone who is actually under the bombs, despite which side he/she is, to me it is not quite a "peace promoter" attitude. Peace is built by showing respect to any human being. what I am trying to say is that the step from missing the attempt to understand the reasons of the other to violence, war and aggression is short. War always starts with missing such attempt.

Blind hate, by definition, can learn nothing.