Hezbollah started this

shiraz

thankyougrandma wrote:

Part of the UN resolution that is saying that Hezbollah must be disarm also state that Lebanon and the Lebanese army must get help to do so, it didn't happen, yet people forget that little paragraph very easily and point the finger at Lebanon govt. to justify the attacks... You cannot start to kill civillians because two soldiers have been kidnap, it's a crime, and it's a simple concept that someone would need to explain to the Israel govt. Or maybe just arrest the PM or the army commander, that would send a message to prevent more state to defend themselves by killing civillians (Iraq/Bush).

Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation in Lebanon, they're giving refuge to those who flee from home, who do you think these peoples will support in the future?

It's like a huge chain of bad decisions...

I didn't really blame the Lebanese gov, I blamed the Hezbollah. I never justified our actions to the Lebanse people either, but I guess million times of writing that still won't stop you from raeding & thinking what you want to.

Oh and "Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation": I guess that's what they are caliming they do, right? Well, You should read Ruud's post instead of terrorists websites. If Hezbollah were such good people, Hariri wouldn't had tried to get rid of them. But he did, so they killed him.

polaris

what is the reasonable response for keeping 100's of lebanese prisoners without charge for all these years?? ... why is it that israel (and the US for that matter) can keep all these prisoners for so long and never charge them or give them a trial?

rebornFixer

farfromglorified wrote:

This is well stated.

Not really. One is an actual military, the other's existence is predicated solely around destroying the populace of said nation.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

I personally think it was about time that another arab country, or group - Hizbollah in this case - came to the assistance of the Palestinians.

This is all well and good, I suppose. It does, however, undermine your claim that you don't want to see further bloodshed. Really, you're not anti-war. You're just cheering for the Arabs.

thankyougrandma

shiraz wrote:

I didn't really blame the Lebanese gov, I blamed the Hezbollah. I never justified our actions to the Lebanse people either, but I guess million times of writing that still won't stop you from raeding & thinking what you want to.

Oh and "Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation": I guess that's what they are caliming they do, right? Well, You should read Ruud's post instead of terrorists websites. If Hezbollah were such good people, Hariri wouldn't had tried to get rid of them. But he did, so they killed him.

No i know what's your point, i was not blaming you for anything, just bringing some stuffs up. You must admit (and i understand) that you're fast to jump on conclusion, my intention is not to prove you wrong of anything. If i quote you it might be to have a discussion more than to prove you wrong, unfortunatly and i'm sorry for that, i seem to come up as confrontative.

Hezbollah are not claiming anything here, they don't have an official voice here, you should also read my post, i'm not saying Hezbollah are right to do this and that, i'm just trying to point that Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now, not that i support that. Army kill 12, but Hezbollah are recruiting 500 on the same period, i fail to see how it is a good strategy for protecting Israelis in the future...

rebornFixer

thankyougrandma wrote:

No i know what's your point, i was not blaming you for anything, just bringing some stuffs up. You must admit (and i understand) that you're fast to jump on conclusion, my intention is not to prove you wrong of anything. If i quote you it might be to have a discussion more than to prove you wrong, unfortunatly and i'm sorry for that, i seem to come up as confrontative.

Hezbollah are not claiming anything here, they don't have an official voice here, you should also read my post, i'm not saying Hezbollah are right to do this and that, i'm just trying to point that Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now, not that i support that. Army kill 12, but Hezbollah are recruiting 500 on the same period, i fail to see how it is a good strategy for protecting Israelis in the future...

I think they've killed a lot more than 12, but I do agree with your point about the Lebanon offensive and its effect on future recruitment.

thankyougrandma

reborncareerist wrote:

I think they've killed a lot more than 12, but I do agree with your point about the Lebanon offensive and its effect on future recruitment.

probably, just an example, same for the 500 number, just an example.

There's a Radio-Canada journalist that was visiting refugee camps around Beirut, they were of course controlled by the Hezbollah, but still you can see what's happening, those kids in the camps singing Hezbollah songs, some man saying "i lost all i got, now i'm not afraid to die" or "i still have my brother's blood on my clothes". It's kind of terrifying, to know that they're using humanitarian measure, to raise more sympathy from the peoples, it means that it's not about to end, not this way. In my opinion of course.

shiraz

thankyougrandma wrote:

Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now

Its a lie that Hezbollah wants you to believe in. It is the Red Cross who is setting up refugee camps, and is the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon. In fact, there are many news reports even in the arab media who claim the opposite, maening Hezbollah actually keeps people from running away and taking over private houses for their own evil motives. I once worte here that I have a Leabnese acquaintance (former solider of the Southern Lebanon Defence Force), who came to Israel as a refugee. Right after the kidnapping act accured (before Israel responded), he connected with his family and friends back home in southern Lebanon. They told him they are about to run away, cause Hezbollah is forcing people out of their homes/ taking over civilians houses and setting there weapons. This is for real, I'm not making this up.

BTW, my acquaintance hasn't managged to contact his family ever since that one time :-(

polaris

polaris wrote:

what is the reasonable response for keeping 100's of lebanese prisoners without charge for all these years?? ... why is it that israel (and the US for that matter) can keep all these prisoners for so long and never charge them or give them a trial?

anyone?

thankyougrandma

shiraz wrote:

Its a lie that Hezbollah wants you to believe in. It is the Red Cross who is setting up refugee camps, and is the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon. In fact, there are many news reports even in the arab media who claim the opposite, maening Hezbollah actually keeps people from running away and taking over private houses for their own evil motives. I once worte here that I have a Leabnese acquaintance (former solider of the Southern Lebanon Defence Force), who came to Israel as a refugee. Right after the kidnapping act accured (before Israel responded), he connected with his family and friends back home in southern Lebanon. They told him they are about to run away, cause Hezbollah is forcing people out of their homes/ taking over civilians houses and setting there weapons. This is for real, I'm not making this up.

BTW, my acquaintance hasn't managged to contact his family ever since that one time :-(

Well, i was wrong by saying the only group. I'm not sure i'm wrong by saying they started refugee camp though, and it's not coming from any Hezbollah propaganda, it was a report with a reporter showing pictures in schools across Beirut of refugee camps and real people talking to the camera, and those camps were obviously not controlled by the Red Cross, hehe believe me they were not... i use the term humanitarian group, in fact it's not exactly right, but they're using humanitarian excuses to set up those camps. I'm sure Hezbollah also did use guerilla tactics as you mentioned, i have no doubt about it...

shiraz

thankyougrandma wrote:

Well, i was wrong by saying the only group. I'm not sure i'm wrong by saying they started refugee camp though, and it's not coming from any Hezbollah propaganda, it was a report with a reporter showing pictures in schools across Beirut of refugee camps and real people talking to the camera, and those camps were obviously not controlled by the Red Cross, hehe believe me they were not... i use the term humanitarian group, in fact it's not exactly right, but they're using humanitarian excuses to set up those camps. I'm sure Hezbollah also did use guerilla tactics as you mentioned, i have no doubt about it...

You actually used the correct word in your former post: "control". Big difference than "setting up". The Red Cross doing it's work, and then Hezbollah take over these camps to show the press how they are supposedly taking care of the Lebanese people. Propaganda it is.

thankyougrandma

shiraz wrote:

You actually used the correct word in your former post: "control". Big difference than "setting up". The Red Cross doing it's work, and then Hezbollah take over these camps to show the press how they are supposedly taking care of the Lebanese people. Propaganda it is.

great, i was right , but in the end the results are the same, they will find sympathy from some of these refugees... no?

edit: i still have doubt about those camps, is it possible that there are indeed Hezbollah refugees camps, and different one set up by the Red Cross? If you can read french: http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2006/07/20060723-211933.html

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

great, i was right , but in the end the results are the same, they will find sympathy from some of these refugees... no?

edit: i still have doubt about those camps, is it possible that there are indeed Hezbollah refugees camps, and different one set up by the Red Cross? If you can read french: http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2006/07/20060723-211933.html

I have no doubt that those are Hezbollah refugee camps. Hezbollah started out as a resistance faction and has contributed a lot to humanitarian efforts in souther Lebanon. Is it so hard to believe they still exist in this form and are not a "terrorist" group?

According to the Associated Press

"The central government has long refused to send the army in, insisting Hezbollah is a legitimate force and fearing that doing so would tear apart the country because of the guerrillas’s strength."

Hezbollah rejected a US peace proposal:

The package included a cease-fire, simultaneous with the deployment of the Lebanese army and an international force in south Lebanon and the removal of Hezbollah weapons from a buffer zone extending 30 kilometers from the Israeli border, said the official. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were private.

While Hezbollah had it's own proposal (rejected?):

Berri rejected the package, proposing instead a two-phased plan. First would come a cease-fire and negotiations for a prisoner swap. Then an inter-Lebanese dialogue would work out a solution to the situation in south Lebanon, said the official.

Edit: Here is the link, notice the headline, Hezbollah negotiator rejects peace proposal, it's not that simple, they rejected it, but offered an equally viable proposal, the only difference is a prisoner swap, and Lebanon's right to self-determination in the countries south.

It's also noteworthy that Israel ceased firing on Beirut for Rice's arrival. I supposing killing a US government official is more heinous than Lebonese officials and civilians.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

This is all well and good, I suppose. It does, however, undermine your claim that you don't want to see further bloodshed. Really, you're not anti-war. You're just cheering for the Arabs.

Cheering for the underdog. I'd feel the same the way if the boot was on the other foot.

rightondude

I see the action of reapppointing or redirecting blame, and continued arguing, as both meaningless and rediculous.

That's the ball of wax "some" would have us all tied up in. Let's not forget that some hands in this world are rubbing together ($$$) in anticipation over this matter.

Those at the top are quite happy to have us all busily picking apart this gigantic ball of knots while we all desperately search and "fight for the cause".

It sure keeps us busy (and spending money) don't it?

shiraz

thankyougrandma wrote:

great, i was right , but in the end the results are the same, they will find sympathy from some of these refugees... no?

edit: i still have doubt about those camps, is it possible that there are indeed Hezbollah refugees camps, and different one set up by the Red Cross? If you can read french: http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2006/07/20060723-211933.html

They will found it regardless Hezbollah's "show". After all, the only thing they remember is that we bombed them. the refugees camps thing is really just a show for the press - nothing more. BTW, most main news websites are only mentioning the UN & the Red Cross, even Aljazeera.

The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.

Can we agree on that?

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.

Can we agree on that?

No

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.

A lot of people in the world see your government in exactly the same way Shiraz.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Cheering for the underdog. I'd feel the same the way if the boot was on the other foot.

Except that this isn't the Kansas City Royals taking on the New York Yankees ... Both sides play a role in escalating the violence and getting people killed. One side has a better military than the other and has U.S. backing, yet the other side survives and still possesses more than enough weaponry to kill Israelis kilometers away.

rebornFixer

Ahnimus wrote:

No

Then you either don't know the definition of terrorism or just choose not to apply it.