I didn't mean it like that. I was responding to the initial post on this thread in which Miller stated: "I cant believe it...they've brought all this damage and destruction against the people of lebanon. I truly feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's...they never wanted this war until hezbollah had to engage the conflict."
This appears to place the blame for what is happening - including Israeli government and military crimes - upon Hizbollah, which I find to be a despicable viewpoint.
Miller wrote "I feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's". Israelis people, civilians.
Well, Hizbollah IS the first to blame for starting all of it. After all, there wasn't really something bad going on between us and the Lebanon since 2000, not even after the 2003 kidnapping of Israeli soliders inside Israel. But still, I think our unavoidable response should have been more measured - no doubt about it.
I still think your response (as well as Miller's) is demagogic.
Miller wrote "I feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's". Israelis people, civilians.
Well, Hizbollah IS the first to blame for starting all of it. After all, there wasn't really something bad going on between us and the Lebanon since 2000, not even after the 2003 kidnapping of Israeli soliders inside Israel. But still, I think our unavoidable response should have been more measured - no doubt about it.
I still think your response (as well as Miller's) is demagogic.
So you don't think thaty the Israeli incursion into Gaza which resulted in massive destruction and loss of life could have triggered Hizbollah into action? I personally think it was about time that another arab country, or group - Hizbollah in this case - came to the assistance of the Palestinians.
Israel should have done a prisoner swap. Then no one would have needed to die.
The word 'terrorism' is used very freely these days to describe what 'they' do to 'us'. What 'we' do to 'them' isn't terrorism though is it. It's interesting that the only country to have been charged with state terrorism is the U.S.
Yeah , i like the subject you brought up because its so easy for israel and america to point fingers and use the 'T' word. Terrorism, what is it? so because hizballah are terrorists they have to slaughter the lebanese people. Ah i see theyre klilling the lebaense people so that what is left is easier to identify as hizballah terorrists.
How many dam hizballah terrorists have they killed so far? do they even havea number? what 2? by mistake?? Oh look a cement truck bomb it! oh look at that woman and her child in disguise we musnt let her get away she might be a great grand nephew's cousins great uncles sisters boyfriend of hizballah descendants. Yes i am mocking the israeli strategy because they should be sued for war crimes. The thing about the arab world is at least we stick together as arabs and sometimes choose to let the religion get out of the way. take a look at lebanon, sure you got racism and the mockery of religion between people, but id like to see a more succeful state of peace than the one achieved in lebanon over the past decade where the country has strived together marched out in millions in a demonstration for the freedom of their country. Where? america? um sorry blacks votes cancelled in florida, i thought slavery was abolished. nations outside lebanon cannot blame the bgovernment for having to disarm hizballah. they have the support of two nations 4 times the size of lebanon so you tell us to go directly to hizballah? how can the government do that, when theyre trying to get rid of the source...Syria, and iran. but first we got syria out(or supposedly) anyone forget the assasination of our prime minister. for those of you who have been to lebanon, he built almost every building in site, at least he did osmething positive. and he was killed beacuse of his refusal to join the syrian regime. Now you dont call that standing up against syria and hizballah? you dont at least consider that one man inside the governemnt at least tried to refuse syria and hizballah's contron of our country. well they killed him. good on you israel and america for nto saying anything about that. now how come you get to go along and complain that the government should interfere.
And then shriaz you talked about pain of th eisraeli. sure teveryone suffers pain but what type of pain. im talking abouit running from home, bodies on the street fire and rubble. not oh whats going to happen to the value of my home, or where am i going to go for my summer vacation this time. In my opinion shiraz ISRAEL has yet to FEEL the pain they have put on the Palestinians and the Lebanese. no way anyone could ever covince me otherwise because you would have compleltly ignored what has happened this last week, whast has been going on the the poor palestinians who defend themselves with goddam rocks and yet you still believe that you can match fire with fire. sorry lads its not fire its a kid throwing a rock at a tank, and the tank turning around and blowing him to bits because he threatened. to the israeli's i say take a look at yourselves and be ashamed. how can you not be. we understand you have the right to defend your coutnry but not to demolish another in justification. that is a war crime. you have the right to claim land (palestine conflict) but not to kill the people in order to get it. Do they hoesntly believe that after all these years the palestinains will give up, to me they have proved th emost relentless coruageous brave people on the face of this planet. no marine or soldier of any kind could withstand what they are going through and the misery of having the world put your life on mute and look away. do these soldiers not feel? do the pilots of these jets not think twice about their family. that is the last thingid like to say about israelis and americans. whenever the bullet is turned on you it is something compeltlyl absurd! like if someone from mexico were to drop a bomb on an american terrirotory all hell would break loose. no kidnapping no mercy. just like here. however if some israeli's decide to nuke a few arabs thats fine so long as they can cover it up with a good enough excuse. but they have teams for that; its called the bush administration.
"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." John Lennon
My god its been so long, never dreamed you'd return, but now here you are, and here i am.
So you don't think thaty the Israeli incursion into Gaza which resulted in massive destruction and loss of life could have triggered Hizbollah into action? I personally think it was about time that another arab country, or group - Hizbollah in this case - came to the assistance of the Palestinians.
Israel should have done a prisoner swap. Then no one would have needed to die.
No. Hamas killed Israeli solideres & kidnapped Gilad Shalit inside Israel in a place called Kerem Shalom, which is an Israeli supervision point near Egypt-Palestinian border (Rafich) and a part of Israel-Palestinian authority agreement during the Gaza withdrawal.
Hizbollah got inspired and acted the same in the Lebanese border. Hizbollah acts for "the sake" of southern Lebanon, and as a terror organization who also oppose to Israel's right to exsit, it will obviously support everything Hamas stands for. However - it is one thing to support, and another thing to take advantage of the situation for your own dark motives.
What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?
And again, please don't forget Hizbollah, like the IRA, was ordered to get rid of its arsenal after we/England moved out of lebanon/northern Irland. IRA kept its part, Hizbollah did the opposite.
No. Hamas killed Israeli solideres & kidnapped Gilad Shalit inside Israel in a place called Kerem Shalom, which is an Israeli supervision point near Egypt-Palestinian border (Rafich) and a part of Israel-Palestinian authority agreement during the Gaza withdrawal.
Hizbollah got inspired and acted the same in the Lebanese border. Hizbollah acts for "the sake" of southern Lebanon, and as a terror organization who also oppose to Israel's right to exsit, it will obviously support everything Hamas stands for. However - it is one thing to support, and another thing to take advantage of the situation for your own dark motives.
What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?
And again, please don't forget Hizbollah, like the IRA, was ordered to get rid of its arsenal after we/England moved out of lebanon/northern Irland. IRA kept its part, Hizbollah did the opposite.
The British army didn't continue oppressing, killing, imprisoning, torturing, embargoing, arresting the Irish though.
And i hate to say it, but the IRA, as far as i am aware, have not decommissioned. Hence the lock up in talks at stormont. If youare ever on the wrong side of oppression, Shiraz, you may find how hard it is for the oppressed to trust those that oppressed them to keep their word. Why should hezbolah disarm? The Israeli Defence Force won't.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
"so because hizballah are terrorists they have to slaughter the lebanese people":
No, as I said many times before (including this thread), hizballah's actions required A reaction, me and most Israeli public think our unavoidable response was not measured, but besides having a massive protest (there was one yesterday in Tel Aviv) about it there is nothing we can do - the damage has been done.
"oh look at that woman and her child in disguise we musnt let her get away she might be a great grand nephew's cousins great uncles sisters boyfriend of hizballah descendants":
Funny, during one of the ground operations 2 or 3 days ago, the IDF found a severe wounded Lebanese woman and her child, rescued both of them and transfered them into an Israeli hostpital. I guess this stories are easy to ignore, ha?
"Yes i am mocking the israeli strategy because they should be sued for war crimes. The thing about the arab world is at least we stick together as arabs and sometimes choose to let the religion get out of the way":
Sometimes, really? Well, I wish. Really, I'm not kidding.
"Take a look at lebanon, sure you got racism and the mockery of religion between people, but id like to see a more succeful state of peace than the one achieved in lebanon over the past decade where the country has strived together marched out in millions in a demonstration for the freedom of their country":
Everything here is true, but you forgot something - Lebanese people & gov did it all except releasing from Hizbollah-Syria-Iran cables. If the arab world is so united, then how come no one helped you to get rid of Lebanon's chains? have you ever really asked for help?
"anyone forget the assasination of our prime minister. for those of you who have been to lebanon, he built almost every building in site, at least he did osmething positive. and he was killed beacuse of his refusal to join the syrian regime. Now you dont call that standing up against syria and hizballah? you dont at least consider that one man inside the governemnt at least tried to refuse syria and hizballah's contron of our country. well they killed him":
Check up one of my posts in page 5 or 6 of this thread, I actually metioned the whole thing but no one except me, an Israeli women, thought it worth further discussion.
"And then shriaz you talked about pain of the israeli. sure teveryone suffers pain but what type of pain. im talking abouit running from home, bodies on the street fire and rubble. not oh whats going to happen to the value of my home, or where am i going to go for my summer vacation this time. In my opinion shiraz ISRAEL has yet to FEEL the pain they have put on the Palestinians and the Lebanese":
50% of northern Israel run away (including my brothers and sisters family), the other 50% actually lives in shelters - like me. I'm not even gonna try claiming you are suffering less than we do, but get this - BOTH of us are suffering, both of us got casualties and demolished houses. would it make you feel better if 300 Israeli civilians would die? I don't think so. I know the people around here don't wish the Lebanese people any bad things to happen, and are really opposing to hurting innocent civilians.
"no way anyone could ever covince me otherwise because you would have compleltly ignored what has happened this last week, whast has been going on the the poor palestinians who defend themselves with goddam rocks":
Both Israel and palestinian are to blame, its not as simple as you display it, and it is irelevant to what's going on in Lebanon.
"and yet you still believe that you can match fire with fire. sorry lads its not fire its a kid throwing a rock at a tank, and the tank turning around and blowing him to bits because he threatened"
And throwing rockets to Israeli town of Sderot, and sending suicide bombing across Israel, kidnap civilians and soliders... do you want me to continue? Like I said, it is not a black or white situation.
"to the israeli's i say take a look at yourselves and be ashamed. how can you not be":
But we are, and if you had just bothered to read any of my posts or actually talk to the average Israeli man, you would have knowen it.
"they hoesntly believe that after all these years the palestinains will give up, to me they have proved th emost relentless coruageous brave people on the face of this planet"
We don't want them to give up, we want them to have their own country, that's why we offered them one in 1997, that's why we moved out of Gaza, that's why we were suppose to get out of other areas, however Hamas decided to launch rockets at Sderot instead of continuing with the diplomatic process that Sharon had started with Abu Mazen. Once ogain, we are not the only one to blame.
"no marine or soldier of any kind could withstand what they are going through and the misery of having the world put your life on mute and look away"
Believe it or not, no one really cares about Israeli civilians either, not even our gov. Putting my life on mute is something that I wish I wouldn't feel. The problem is, I feel that way almost everyday of my life.
"do these soldiers not feel? do the pilots of these jets not think twice about their family?"
Does the Hamas have feelings? don't they care about the Israeli civilians and their family before bombing themself? don't thay care about sending 14-15 or 16 years old kids to bomb themself up? what about puting little Palestinian children in the front thier guns? Again, both sides are to blame.
"if someone from mexico were to drop a bomb on an american terrirotory all hell would break loose. no kidnapping no mercy. just like here. however if some israeli's decide to nuke a few arabs thats fine so long as they can cover it up with a good enough excuse"
I don't think someone really thinks that way, I know for sure that Israeli civilians don't, and so are many other civilians & nations across the globe.
IDF is the official army of a country called Israel, Lebanon defence army IS the official army of Lebanon. Hizballah is A group of terrorists who took over Southern Lebanon just as we did, but unlike us thay never left nor disarmed like they were told to. You can not be an armed force & a political party - end of story.
The British army didn't continue oppressing, killing, imprisoning, torturing, embargoing, arresting the Irish though.
And i hate to say it, but the IRA, as far as i am aware, have not decommissioned. Hence the lock up in talks at stormont. If youare ever on the wrong side of oppression, Shiraz, you may find how hard it is for the oppressed to trust those that oppressed them to keep their word. Why should hezbolah disarm? The Israeli Defence Force won't.
Neither did we in Lebanon, we moved out in 2000. And you didn't answer my question:
"What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?"
No. Hamas killed Israeli solideres & kidnapped Gilad Shalit inside Israel in a place called Kerem Shalom, which is an Israeli supervision point near Egypt-Palestinian border (Rafich) and a part of Israel-Palestinian authority agreement during the Gaza withdrawal.
Hizbollah got inspired and acted the same in the Lebanese border. Hizbollah acts for "the sake" of southern Lebanon, and as a terror organization who also oppose to Israel's right to exsit, it will obviously support everything Hamas stands for. However - it is one thing to support, and another thing to take advantage of the situation for your own dark motives.
What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?
And again, please don't forget Hizbollah, like the IRA, was ordered to get rid of its arsenal after we/England moved out of lebanon/northern Irland. IRA kept its part, Hizbollah did the opposite.
Part of the UN resolution that is saying that Hezbollah must be disarm also state that Lebanon and the Lebanese army must get help to do so, it didn't happen, yet people forget that little paragraph very easily and point the finger at Lebanon govt. to justify the attacks... You cannot start to kill civillians because two soldiers have been kidnap, it's a crime, and it's a simple concept that someone would need to explain to the Israel govt. Or maybe just arrest the PM or the army commander, that would send a message to prevent more state to defend themselves by killing civillians (Iraq/Bush).
Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation in Lebanon, they're giving refuge to those who flee from home, who do you think these peoples will support in the future?
It's like a huge chain of bad decisions...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Part of the UN resolution that is saying that Hezbollah must be disarm also state that Lebanon and the Lebanese army must get help to do so, it didn't happen, yet people forget that little paragraph very easily and point the finger at Lebanon govt. to justify the attacks... You cannot start to kill civillians because two soldiers have been kidnap, it's a crime, and it's a simple concept that someone would need to explain to the Israel govt. Or maybe just arrest the PM or the army commander, that would send a message to prevent more state to defend themselves by killing civillians (Iraq/Bush).
Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation in Lebanon, they're giving refuge to those who flee from home, who do you think these peoples will support in the future?
It's like a huge chain of bad decisions...
I didn't really blame the Lebanese gov, I blamed the Hezbollah. I never justified our actions to the Lebanse people either, but I guess million times of writing that still won't stop you from raeding & thinking what you want to.
Oh and "Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation": I guess that's what they are caliming they do, right? Well, You should read Ruud's post instead of terrorists websites. If Hezbollah were such good people, Hariri wouldn't had tried to get rid of them. But he did, so they killed him.
what is the reasonable response for keeping 100's of lebanese prisoners without charge for all these years?? ... why is it that israel (and the US for that matter) can keep all these prisoners for so long and never charge them or give them a trial?
I personally think it was about time that another arab country, or group - Hizbollah in this case - came to the assistance of the Palestinians.
This is all well and good, I suppose. It does, however, undermine your claim that you don't want to see further bloodshed. Really, you're not anti-war. You're just cheering for the Arabs.
I didn't really blame the Lebanese gov, I blamed the Hezbollah. I never justified our actions to the Lebanse people either, but I guess million times of writing that still won't stop you from raeding & thinking what you want to.
Oh and "Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation": I guess that's what they are caliming they do, right? Well, You should read Ruud's post instead of terrorists websites. If Hezbollah were such good people, Hariri wouldn't had tried to get rid of them. But he did, so they killed him.
No i know what's your point, i was not blaming you for anything, just bringing some stuffs up. You must admit (and i understand) that you're fast to jump on conclusion, my intention is not to prove you wrong of anything. If i quote you it might be to have a discussion more than to prove you wrong, unfortunatly and i'm sorry for that, i seem to come up as confrontative.
Hezbollah are not claiming anything here, they don't have an official voice here, you should also read my post, i'm not saying Hezbollah are right to do this and that, i'm just trying to point that Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now, not that i support that. Army kill 12, but Hezbollah are recruiting 500 on the same period, i fail to see how it is a good strategy for protecting Israelis in the future...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
No i know what's your point, i was not blaming you for anything, just bringing some stuffs up. You must admit (and i understand) that you're fast to jump on conclusion, my intention is not to prove you wrong of anything. If i quote you it might be to have a discussion more than to prove you wrong, unfortunatly and i'm sorry for that, i seem to come up as confrontative.
Hezbollah are not claiming anything here, they don't have an official voice here, you should also read my post, i'm not saying Hezbollah are right to do this and that, i'm just trying to point that Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now, not that i support that. Army kill 12, but Hezbollah are recruiting 500 on the same period, i fail to see how it is a good strategy for protecting Israelis in the future...
I think they've killed a lot more than 12, but I do agree with your point about the Lebanon offensive and its effect on future recruitment.
I think they've killed a lot more than 12, but I do agree with your point about the Lebanon offensive and its effect on future recruitment.
probably, just an example, same for the 500 number, just an example.
There's a Radio-Canada journalist that was visiting refugee camps around Beirut, they were of course controlled by the Hezbollah, but still you can see what's happening, those kids in the camps singing Hezbollah songs, some man saying "i lost all i got, now i'm not afraid to die" or "i still have my brother's blood on my clothes". It's kind of terrifying, to know that they're using humanitarian measure, to raise more sympathy from the peoples, it means that it's not about to end, not this way. In my opinion of course.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now
Its a lie that Hezbollah wants you to believe in. It is the Red Cross who is setting up refugee camps, and is the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon. In fact, there are many news reports even in the arab media who claim the opposite, maening Hezbollah actually keeps people from running away and taking over private houses for their own evil motives. I once worte here that I have a Leabnese acquaintance (former solider of the Southern Lebanon Defence Force), who came to Israel as a refugee. Right after the kidnapping act accured (before Israel responded), he connected with his family and friends back home in southern Lebanon. They told him they are about to run away, cause Hezbollah is forcing people out of their homes/ taking over civilians houses and setting there weapons. This is for real, I'm not making this up.
BTW, my acquaintance hasn't managged to contact his family ever since that one time :-(
what is the reasonable response for keeping 100's of lebanese prisoners without charge for all these years?? ... why is it that israel (and the US for that matter) can keep all these prisoners for so long and never charge them or give them a trial?
Its a lie that Hezbollah wants you to believe in. It is the Red Cross who is setting up refugee camps, and is the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon. In fact, there are many news reports even in the arab media who claim the opposite, maening Hezbollah actually keeps people from running away and taking over private houses for their own evil motives. I once worte here that I have a Leabnese acquaintance (former solider of the Southern Lebanon Defence Force), who came to Israel as a refugee. Right after the kidnapping act accured (before Israel responded), he connected with his family and friends back home in southern Lebanon. They told him they are about to run away, cause Hezbollah is forcing people out of their homes/ taking over civilians houses and setting there weapons. This is for real, I'm not making this up.
BTW, my acquaintance hasn't managged to contact his family ever since that one time :-(
Well, i was wrong by saying the only group. I'm not sure i'm wrong by saying they started refugee camp though, and it's not coming from any Hezbollah propaganda, it was a report with a reporter showing pictures in schools across Beirut of refugee camps and real people talking to the camera, and those camps were obviously not controlled by the Red Cross, hehe believe me they were not... i use the term humanitarian group, in fact it's not exactly right, but they're using humanitarian excuses to set up those camps. I'm sure Hezbollah also did use guerilla tactics as you mentioned, i have no doubt about it...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Well, i was wrong by saying the only group. I'm not sure i'm wrong by saying they started refugee camp though, and it's not coming from any Hezbollah propaganda, it was a report with a reporter showing pictures in schools across Beirut of refugee camps and real people talking to the camera, and those camps were obviously not controlled by the Red Cross, hehe believe me they were not... i use the term humanitarian group, in fact it's not exactly right, but they're using humanitarian excuses to set up those camps. I'm sure Hezbollah also did use guerilla tactics as you mentioned, i have no doubt about it...
You actually used the correct word in your former post: "control". Big difference than "setting up". The Red Cross doing it's work, and then Hezbollah take over these camps to show the press how they are supposedly taking care of the Lebanese people. Propaganda it is.
You actually used the correct word in your former post: "control". Big difference than "setting up". The Red Cross doing it's work, and then Hezbollah take over these camps to show the press how they are supposedly taking care of the Lebanese people. Propaganda it is.
great, i was right , but in the end the results are the same, they will find sympathy from some of these refugees... no?
I have no doubt that those are Hezbollah refugee camps. Hezbollah started out as a resistance faction and has contributed a lot to humanitarian efforts in souther Lebanon. Is it so hard to believe they still exist in this form and are not a "terrorist" group?
According to the Associated Press
"The central government has long refused to send the army in, insisting Hezbollah is a legitimate force and fearing that doing so would tear apart the country because of the guerrillas’s strength."
Hezbollah rejected a US peace proposal:
The package included a cease-fire, simultaneous with the deployment of the Lebanese army and an international force in south Lebanon and the removal of Hezbollah weapons from a buffer zone extending 30 kilometers from the Israeli border, said the official. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were private.
While Hezbollah had it's own proposal (rejected?):
Berri rejected the package, proposing instead a two-phased plan. First would come a cease-fire and negotiations for a prisoner swap. Then an inter-Lebanese dialogue would work out a solution to the situation in south Lebanon, said the official.
Edit: Here is the link, notice the headline, Hezbollah negotiator rejects peace proposal, it's not that simple, they rejected it, but offered an equally viable proposal, the only difference is a prisoner swap, and Lebanon's right to self-determination in the countries south.
It's also noteworthy that Israel ceased firing on Beirut for Rice's arrival. I supposing killing a US government official is more heinous than Lebonese officials and civilians.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
This is all well and good, I suppose. It does, however, undermine your claim that you don't want to see further bloodshed. Really, you're not anti-war. You're just cheering for the Arabs.
Cheering for the underdog. I'd feel the same the way if the boot was on the other foot.
I see the action of reapppointing or redirecting blame, and continued arguing, as both meaningless and rediculous.
That's the ball of wax "some" would have us all tied up in. Let's not forget that some hands in this world are rubbing together ($$$) in anticipation over this matter.
Those at the top are quite happy to have us all busily picking apart this gigantic ball of knots while we all desperately search and "fight for the cause".
It sure keeps us busy (and spending money) don't it?
They will found it regardless Hezbollah's "show". After all, the only thing they remember is that we bombed them. the refugees camps thing is really just a show for the press - nothing more. BTW, most main news websites are only mentioning the UN & the Red Cross, even Aljazeera.
The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.
The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.
Can we agree on that?
No
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Cheering for the underdog. I'd feel the same the way if the boot was on the other foot.
Except that this isn't the Kansas City Royals taking on the New York Yankees ... Both sides play a role in escalating the violence and getting people killed. One side has a better military than the other and has U.S. backing, yet the other side survives and still possesses more than enough weaponry to kill Israelis kilometers away.
Comments
Miller wrote "I feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's". Israelis people, civilians.
Well, Hizbollah IS the first to blame for starting all of it. After all, there wasn't really something bad going on between us and the Lebanon since 2000, not even after the 2003 kidnapping of Israeli soliders inside Israel. But still, I think our unavoidable response should have been more measured - no doubt about it.
I still think your response (as well as Miller's) is demagogic.
So you don't think thaty the Israeli incursion into Gaza which resulted in massive destruction and loss of life could have triggered Hizbollah into action? I personally think it was about time that another arab country, or group - Hizbollah in this case - came to the assistance of the Palestinians.
Israel should have done a prisoner swap. Then no one would have needed to die.
Yeah , i like the subject you brought up because its so easy for israel and america to point fingers and use the 'T' word. Terrorism, what is it? so because hizballah are terrorists they have to slaughter the lebanese people. Ah i see theyre klilling the lebaense people so that what is left is easier to identify as hizballah terorrists.
How many dam hizballah terrorists have they killed so far? do they even havea number? what 2? by mistake?? Oh look a cement truck bomb it! oh look at that woman and her child in disguise we musnt let her get away she might be a great grand nephew's cousins great uncles sisters boyfriend of hizballah descendants. Yes i am mocking the israeli strategy because they should be sued for war crimes. The thing about the arab world is at least we stick together as arabs and sometimes choose to let the religion get out of the way. take a look at lebanon, sure you got racism and the mockery of religion between people, but id like to see a more succeful state of peace than the one achieved in lebanon over the past decade where the country has strived together marched out in millions in a demonstration for the freedom of their country. Where? america? um sorry blacks votes cancelled in florida, i thought slavery was abolished. nations outside lebanon cannot blame the bgovernment for having to disarm hizballah. they have the support of two nations 4 times the size of lebanon so you tell us to go directly to hizballah? how can the government do that, when theyre trying to get rid of the source...Syria, and iran. but first we got syria out(or supposedly) anyone forget the assasination of our prime minister. for those of you who have been to lebanon, he built almost every building in site, at least he did osmething positive. and he was killed beacuse of his refusal to join the syrian regime. Now you dont call that standing up against syria and hizballah? you dont at least consider that one man inside the governemnt at least tried to refuse syria and hizballah's contron of our country. well they killed him. good on you israel and america for nto saying anything about that. now how come you get to go along and complain that the government should interfere.
And then shriaz you talked about pain of th eisraeli. sure teveryone suffers pain but what type of pain. im talking abouit running from home, bodies on the street fire and rubble. not oh whats going to happen to the value of my home, or where am i going to go for my summer vacation this time. In my opinion shiraz ISRAEL has yet to FEEL the pain they have put on the Palestinians and the Lebanese. no way anyone could ever covince me otherwise because you would have compleltly ignored what has happened this last week, whast has been going on the the poor palestinians who defend themselves with goddam rocks and yet you still believe that you can match fire with fire. sorry lads its not fire its a kid throwing a rock at a tank, and the tank turning around and blowing him to bits because he threatened. to the israeli's i say take a look at yourselves and be ashamed. how can you not be. we understand you have the right to defend your coutnry but not to demolish another in justification. that is a war crime. you have the right to claim land (palestine conflict) but not to kill the people in order to get it. Do they hoesntly believe that after all these years the palestinains will give up, to me they have proved th emost relentless coruageous brave people on the face of this planet. no marine or soldier of any kind could withstand what they are going through and the misery of having the world put your life on mute and look away. do these soldiers not feel? do the pilots of these jets not think twice about their family. that is the last thingid like to say about israelis and americans. whenever the bullet is turned on you it is something compeltlyl absurd! like if someone from mexico were to drop a bomb on an american terrirotory all hell would break loose. no kidnapping no mercy. just like here. however if some israeli's decide to nuke a few arabs thats fine so long as they can cover it up with a good enough excuse. but they have teams for that; its called the bush administration.
My god its been so long, never dreamed you'd return, but now here you are, and here i am.
No. Hamas killed Israeli solideres & kidnapped Gilad Shalit inside Israel in a place called Kerem Shalom, which is an Israeli supervision point near Egypt-Palestinian border (Rafich) and a part of Israel-Palestinian authority agreement during the Gaza withdrawal.
Hizbollah got inspired and acted the same in the Lebanese border. Hizbollah acts for "the sake" of southern Lebanon, and as a terror organization who also oppose to Israel's right to exsit, it will obviously support everything Hamas stands for. However - it is one thing to support, and another thing to take advantage of the situation for your own dark motives.
What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?
And again, please don't forget Hizbollah, like the IRA, was ordered to get rid of its arsenal after we/England moved out of lebanon/northern Irland. IRA kept its part, Hizbollah did the opposite.
The British army didn't continue oppressing, killing, imprisoning, torturing, embargoing, arresting the Irish though.
And i hate to say it, but the IRA, as far as i am aware, have not decommissioned. Hence the lock up in talks at stormont. If youare ever on the wrong side of oppression, Shiraz, you may find how hard it is for the oppressed to trust those that oppressed them to keep their word. Why should hezbolah disarm? The Israeli Defence Force won't.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
This is well stated.
No, as I said many times before (including this thread), hizballah's actions required A reaction, me and most Israeli public think our unavoidable response was not measured, but besides having a massive protest (there was one yesterday in Tel Aviv) about it there is nothing we can do - the damage has been done.
"oh look at that woman and her child in disguise we musnt let her get away she might be a great grand nephew's cousins great uncles sisters boyfriend of hizballah descendants":
Funny, during one of the ground operations 2 or 3 days ago, the IDF found a severe wounded Lebanese woman and her child, rescued both of them and transfered them into an Israeli hostpital. I guess this stories are easy to ignore, ha?
"Yes i am mocking the israeli strategy because they should be sued for war crimes. The thing about the arab world is at least we stick together as arabs and sometimes choose to let the religion get out of the way":
Sometimes, really? Well, I wish. Really, I'm not kidding.
"Take a look at lebanon, sure you got racism and the mockery of religion between people, but id like to see a more succeful state of peace than the one achieved in lebanon over the past decade where the country has strived together marched out in millions in a demonstration for the freedom of their country":
Everything here is true, but you forgot something - Lebanese people & gov did it all except releasing from Hizbollah-Syria-Iran cables. If the arab world is so united, then how come no one helped you to get rid of Lebanon's chains? have you ever really asked for help?
"anyone forget the assasination of our prime minister. for those of you who have been to lebanon, he built almost every building in site, at least he did osmething positive. and he was killed beacuse of his refusal to join the syrian regime. Now you dont call that standing up against syria and hizballah? you dont at least consider that one man inside the governemnt at least tried to refuse syria and hizballah's contron of our country. well they killed him":
Check up one of my posts in page 5 or 6 of this thread, I actually metioned the whole thing but no one except me, an Israeli women, thought it worth further discussion.
"And then shriaz you talked about pain of the israeli. sure teveryone suffers pain but what type of pain. im talking abouit running from home, bodies on the street fire and rubble. not oh whats going to happen to the value of my home, or where am i going to go for my summer vacation this time. In my opinion shiraz ISRAEL has yet to FEEL the pain they have put on the Palestinians and the Lebanese":
50% of northern Israel run away (including my brothers and sisters family), the other 50% actually lives in shelters - like me. I'm not even gonna try claiming you are suffering less than we do, but get this - BOTH of us are suffering, both of us got casualties and demolished houses. would it make you feel better if 300 Israeli civilians would die? I don't think so. I know the people around here don't wish the Lebanese people any bad things to happen, and are really opposing to hurting innocent civilians.
"no way anyone could ever covince me otherwise because you would have compleltly ignored what has happened this last week, whast has been going on the the poor palestinians who defend themselves with goddam rocks":
Both Israel and palestinian are to blame, its not as simple as you display it, and it is irelevant to what's going on in Lebanon.
"and yet you still believe that you can match fire with fire. sorry lads its not fire its a kid throwing a rock at a tank, and the tank turning around and blowing him to bits because he threatened"
And throwing rockets to Israeli town of Sderot, and sending suicide bombing across Israel, kidnap civilians and soliders... do you want me to continue? Like I said, it is not a black or white situation.
"to the israeli's i say take a look at yourselves and be ashamed. how can you not be":
But we are, and if you had just bothered to read any of my posts or actually talk to the average Israeli man, you would have knowen it.
"they hoesntly believe that after all these years the palestinains will give up, to me they have proved th emost relentless coruageous brave people on the face of this planet"
We don't want them to give up, we want them to have their own country, that's why we offered them one in 1997, that's why we moved out of Gaza, that's why we were suppose to get out of other areas, however Hamas decided to launch rockets at Sderot instead of continuing with the diplomatic process that Sharon had started with Abu Mazen. Once ogain, we are not the only one to blame.
"no marine or soldier of any kind could withstand what they are going through and the misery of having the world put your life on mute and look away"
Believe it or not, no one really cares about Israeli civilians either, not even our gov. Putting my life on mute is something that I wish I wouldn't feel. The problem is, I feel that way almost everyday of my life.
"do these soldiers not feel? do the pilots of these jets not think twice about their family?"
Does the Hamas have feelings? don't they care about the Israeli civilians and their family before bombing themself? don't thay care about sending 14-15 or 16 years old kids to bomb themself up? what about puting little Palestinian children in the front thier guns? Again, both sides are to blame.
"if someone from mexico were to drop a bomb on an american terrirotory all hell would break loose. no kidnapping no mercy. just like here. however if some israeli's decide to nuke a few arabs thats fine so long as they can cover it up with a good enough excuse"
I don't think someone really thinks that way, I know for sure that Israeli civilians don't, and so are many other civilians & nations across the globe.
Take care,
Shiraz
IDF is the official army of a country called Israel, Lebanon defence army IS the official army of Lebanon. Hizballah is A group of terrorists who took over Southern Lebanon just as we did, but unlike us thay never left nor disarmed like they were told to. You can not be an armed force & a political party - end of story.
Neither did we in Lebanon, we moved out in 2000. And you didn't answer my question:
"What would you say if Hizbollah did the same thing with soliders from US/England or other int forces in occuping Iraq? And what would you say if Hizbollah did the same with FORMER int armed forces in occuping Iraq, for example get into Spain, kill and kidnap their soliders? does it sound like an assistance to the Iraqi people? Is it justified? Does Hizbollah have the right to do such things?"
But then again, I didn't expect you will.
Part of the UN resolution that is saying that Hezbollah must be disarm also state that Lebanon and the Lebanese army must get help to do so, it didn't happen, yet people forget that little paragraph very easily and point the finger at Lebanon govt. to justify the attacks... You cannot start to kill civillians because two soldiers have been kidnap, it's a crime, and it's a simple concept that someone would need to explain to the Israel govt. Or maybe just arrest the PM or the army commander, that would send a message to prevent more state to defend themselves by killing civillians (Iraq/Bush).
Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation in Lebanon, they're giving refuge to those who flee from home, who do you think these peoples will support in the future?
It's like a huge chain of bad decisions...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I didn't really blame the Lebanese gov, I blamed the Hezbollah. I never justified our actions to the Lebanse people either, but I guess million times of writing that still won't stop you from raeding & thinking what you want to.
Oh and "Now Hezbollah are the only efficient humanitarian organisation": I guess that's what they are caliming they do, right? Well, You should read Ruud's post instead of terrorists websites. If Hezbollah were such good people, Hariri wouldn't had tried to get rid of them. But he did, so they killed him.
Not really. One is an actual military, the other's existence is predicated solely around destroying the populace of said nation.
This is all well and good, I suppose. It does, however, undermine your claim that you don't want to see further bloodshed. Really, you're not anti-war. You're just cheering for the Arabs.
No i know what's your point, i was not blaming you for anything, just bringing some stuffs up. You must admit (and i understand) that you're fast to jump on conclusion, my intention is not to prove you wrong of anything. If i quote you it might be to have a discussion more than to prove you wrong, unfortunatly and i'm sorry for that, i seem to come up as confrontative.
Hezbollah are not claiming anything here, they don't have an official voice here, you should also read my post, i'm not saying Hezbollah are right to do this and that, i'm just trying to point that Hezbollah are profiting from the current Israel offensive by setting up refugee camps and by being the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon right now, not that i support that. Army kill 12, but Hezbollah are recruiting 500 on the same period, i fail to see how it is a good strategy for protecting Israelis in the future...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I think they've killed a lot more than 12, but I do agree with your point about the Lebanon offensive and its effect on future recruitment.
probably, just an example, same for the 500 number, just an example.
There's a Radio-Canada journalist that was visiting refugee camps around Beirut, they were of course controlled by the Hezbollah, but still you can see what's happening, those kids in the camps singing Hezbollah songs, some man saying "i lost all i got, now i'm not afraid to die" or "i still have my brother's blood on my clothes". It's kind of terrifying, to know that they're using humanitarian measure, to raise more sympathy from the peoples, it means that it's not about to end, not this way. In my opinion of course.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Its a lie that Hezbollah wants you to believe in. It is the Red Cross who is setting up refugee camps, and is the only effective "humanitarian" group in Lebanon. In fact, there are many news reports even in the arab media who claim the opposite, maening Hezbollah actually keeps people from running away and taking over private houses for their own evil motives. I once worte here that I have a Leabnese acquaintance (former solider of the Southern Lebanon Defence Force), who came to Israel as a refugee. Right after the kidnapping act accured (before Israel responded), he connected with his family and friends back home in southern Lebanon. They told him they are about to run away, cause Hezbollah is forcing people out of their homes/ taking over civilians houses and setting there weapons. This is for real, I'm not making this up.
BTW, my acquaintance hasn't managged to contact his family ever since that one time :-(
anyone?
Well, i was wrong by saying the only group. I'm not sure i'm wrong by saying they started refugee camp though, and it's not coming from any Hezbollah propaganda, it was a report with a reporter showing pictures in schools across Beirut of refugee camps and real people talking to the camera, and those camps were obviously not controlled by the Red Cross, hehe believe me they were not... i use the term humanitarian group, in fact it's not exactly right, but they're using humanitarian excuses to set up those camps. I'm sure Hezbollah also did use guerilla tactics as you mentioned, i have no doubt about it...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
You actually used the correct word in your former post: "control". Big difference than "setting up". The Red Cross doing it's work, and then Hezbollah take over these camps to show the press how they are supposedly taking care of the Lebanese people. Propaganda it is.
great, i was right
edit: i still have doubt about those camps, is it possible that there are indeed Hezbollah refugees camps, and different one set up by the Red Cross? If you can read french: http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2006/07/20060723-211933.html
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I have no doubt that those are Hezbollah refugee camps. Hezbollah started out as a resistance faction and has contributed a lot to humanitarian efforts in souther Lebanon. Is it so hard to believe they still exist in this form and are not a "terrorist" group?
According to the Associated Press
"The central government has long refused to send the army in, insisting Hezbollah is a legitimate force and fearing that doing so would tear apart the country because of the guerrillas’s strength."
Hezbollah rejected a US peace proposal:
The package included a cease-fire, simultaneous with the deployment of the Lebanese army and an international force in south Lebanon and the removal of Hezbollah weapons from a buffer zone extending 30 kilometers from the Israeli border, said the official. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were private.
While Hezbollah had it's own proposal (rejected?):
Berri rejected the package, proposing instead a two-phased plan. First would come a cease-fire and negotiations for a prisoner swap. Then an inter-Lebanese dialogue would work out a solution to the situation in south Lebanon, said the official.
Edit: Here is the link, notice the headline, Hezbollah negotiator rejects peace proposal, it's not that simple, they rejected it, but offered an equally viable proposal, the only difference is a prisoner swap, and Lebanon's right to self-determination in the countries south.
It's also noteworthy that Israel ceased firing on Beirut for Rice's arrival. I supposing killing a US government official is more heinous than Lebonese officials and civilians.
Cheering for the underdog. I'd feel the same the way if the boot was on the other foot.
That's the ball of wax "some" would have us all tied up in. Let's not forget that some hands in this world are rubbing together ($$$) in anticipation over this matter.
Those at the top are quite happy to have us all busily picking apart this gigantic ball of knots while we all desperately search and "fight for the cause".
It sure keeps us busy (and spending money) don't it?
They will found it regardless Hezbollah's "show". After all, the only thing they remember is that we bombed them. the refugees camps thing is really just a show for the press - nothing more. BTW, most main news websites are only mentioning the UN & the Red Cross, even Aljazeera.
The bottom line is Hezbollah is a terror organization which doesn't care so much about civilians, nor rival politicians who are opposing their stands.
Can we agree on that?
No
A lot of people in the world see your government in exactly the same way Shiraz.
Except that this isn't the Kansas City Royals taking on the New York Yankees ... Both sides play a role in escalating the violence and getting people killed. One side has a better military than the other and has U.S. backing, yet the other side survives and still possesses more than enough weaponry to kill Israelis kilometers away.
Then you either don't know the definition of terrorism or just choose not to apply it.