Ha Ha Ha Ha !!! this one's really funny !!! Hey man ! Don't be so Naive , and don't trust every word that the journalists on Fox News say !!!
Man ! "Hezbollah" is not a terrosist organization but a resistance . Maybe you tend to forget that Israel is collonising a big part of the south of lebanon , and also a big part of "syria" and a big part of "egypt" and collonising the whole palestine ! Man , those poeple are suffering since 50 years , they've been taken all that they have , and nobody talked about that ! While you are sitting there , drinking a beer in front of your TV , Hundreds of poeple are dying ,innocent Kids and Women . so you don't have the right , I say you don't have the fucking right to say this " Hopefully Israel gets the job done" Who do you think you are ? I'm really upset when i hear those kind of things !!! tell me ! you don't have heart or what !? please keep those kind of thoughts to yourself , I bet nobody here wants to hear what you have to say !!!
I wish I could have your experience over there. It would be very interesting to see firsthand. I don;t know what to think but I think after reading your post I think I'm seeing the repeating pattern throughout history. There is so much misinformation going on, it reminds me of another government I know... If what you sat about Israel opressing and expanding around the region is true, then I do see the picture now. And I do believe I've been fed Pro Israeli propaganda from various sources.
hmm.. Interesting. My first gut instinct was against Israel.
there's plenty of UN resolution against Israel occupation and Israel has an army... so, through your definition, because Israel has an army and don't respect the UN resolutions, should be considered a terror organization...
It's interesting how people of a nation which government is oppressing other people start to turn against those people too: see for example Serbs in Kosovo: before 1999 also civilian serbs committed human rights violations. It's a shame that you keep a blind eye on what your government is doing, shiraz
But I am not!!!
"
- Can you admit that you are there by force? That Israel has stolen the land?
- I already did, in MANY MANY posts that you didn't actually bother to read. We are in Lebanon now cause of the Hezbollah, there is no Israeli occupation in Lebanon since 2000, but we are still occuping lands in southern Isreal for really no good reason"
I am well aware to what's going on in Gaza area, and I'm also aware to what's going on right now in southern Israeli town of Sderot, Northern Israel and in Lebanon. I am not trying to justifay the killing of civilians, I never cliamed there is no occupation in the Gaza area. The only thing I keep saying is that Hezbollah IS a terror organization by all definitions since 2000 - end of story.
The IDF gets orderes from our gov, the same way US army and the rest of int armed forces in occupied Iraq do. Should we call them terrorists as well? I don't know. Are they just as bad as the Hezbollah? I don't know. All I know is that Hezbollah (non official army who acts via Lebanon) lost any reason to be an armed force since 2000, and the IDF or the US army (=Official army of a country) didn't.
I was claer - they have no reason to exist as a terror organization since we moved out of Lebanon in 2000, hence no reason to be an armed force, but this is just what they are.
And all of the talking about other work - well, even if its true (which I find it hard to believe), I can say the exact thing about bin laden's organization. After all, we heard the same things about it too.
Great, 2 people were killed about 20 minutes ago in the latest Haifa attack. at least 2 hits were directed.
I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger after many civilians were killed.
I sympathize with your situation and that your country is in the thick of things as well, but I cannot see Israel as only a victim when there have been hundreds of civilian Lebonese casualties at the expense of ony a dozen or so intended targets. This is not a measured or equal response. Even if Hezbollah is mostly destroyed, this will only conjure up more extremism/radicalism and hate towards Israel in a country that has been peaceful. Hezbollah was created in the same conditions that are presented now, so there will be a new Hezbollah soon enough I'm afraid.
I cant believe it...they've brought all this damage and destruction against the people of lebanon. I truly feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's...they never wanted this war until hezbollah had to engage the conflict
May hezbollah rot in hell for the destructon theyve caused
sure, may all those who intentionally push a buttons that in the end killed an innocent civillians rot in hell...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger after many civilians were killed.
I sympathize with your situation and that your country is in the thick of things as well, but I cannot see Israel as only a victim when there have been hundreds of civilian Lebonese casualties at the expense of ony a dozen or so intended targets. This is not a measured or equal response. Even if Hezbollah is mostly destroyed, this will only conjure up more extremism/radicalism and hate towards Israel in a country that has been peaceful. Hezbollah was created in the same conditions that are presented now, so there will be a new Hezbollah soon enough I'm afraid.
Israel & Lebanon are BOTH the victims of a TERROR organization called hezbollah, I never said our response is measured , only we had the right to perform AN act. In fact, I've said more than once that I think our response is not measured, but that still doesn't change the fact that we HAD to responed to these events.
"I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger"
So THAT gives the hezbollah the right to cross the Israeli border, kill and kidnap soliders? Are you kidding me? Well, according to that logic we should expect similar acts with Irland-England, right?
Israel & Lebanon are BOTH the victims of a TERROR organization called hezbollah, I never said our response is measured , only we had the right to perform AN act. In fact, I've said more than once that I think our response is not measured, but that still doesn't change the fact that we HAD to responed to these events.
"I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger"
So THAT gives the hezbollah the right to cross the Israeli border, kill and kidnap soliders? Are you kidding me? Well, according to that logic we should expect similar acts with Irland-England, right?
god...
Every story I've read says that Israeli troops crossed the border and the fighting took place in Israel. Still that's like if I bust down your door and let myself in, then run back outside and expect you not to do anything about it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Every story I've read says that Israeli troops crossed the border and the fighting took place in Israel. Still that's like if I bust down your door and let myself in, then run back outside and expect you not to do anything about it.
Really? Because I've encountered only ONE source that suggests that the first battle with Hezbollah in which the 2 soliders were kidnapped took place in Israel, and it was posted on here. Every other source (including many Arabic ones) claim that Hezbollah (encouraged by the initial kidnapping) attacked into Israel first, probably intending to open a second front in Lebanon.
Israel had to do something but they've simply blown up the whole country which is an insane reaction and have been proven not to work in the past. Israel govt. definitly commited war crimes in Lebanon toward Lebanese civillians. Again, they had the right to protect themselves, but also responsabilities towards civillians. If a terrorist live next to my house, nobody have the RIGHT to kill me because of it. If it happens, then i hope justice and trial will be set.
I have no doubt that if they arrest Hezbollah chief, he'll respond to a court, sadly it won't be the same for the Israel govt. Bravo to the Israeli who condemn those attacks, even if they are a visible minority.
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Israel & Lebanon are BOTH the victims of a TERROR organization called hezbollah, I never said our response is measured , only we had the right to perform AN act. In fact, I've said more than once that I think our response is not measured, but that still doesn't change the fact that we HAD to responed to these events.
So THAT gives the hezbollah the right to cross the Israeli border, kill and kidnap soliders? Are you kidding me? Well, according to that logic we should expect similar acts with Irland-England, right?
god...
I actually agree with you. Israel did have to respond, but they went too far and the casualties have been indiscrimminate. Secondly I did NOT say that the Israeli occupation gives Hezbollah the right to kidnap soldiers. What I did say is that the reason why they have not disbanded their military wing is because of their mistrust of Israel. No where did I say anything that justified the kidnappings or criminal actions of Hezbollah. Read the post again.
Wait a minute...
Wasn't the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon touted by President Bush and the people who continually suck his cock as a 'Good' thing for the Middle East... even when here were those of us who thought, while ruled with an iron fist, Syria was at least keeping Hezbolah and those other radical fucks under wraps. Democracy in Lebanon allows Hezbolah to gain power in the region... the same way Democracy in Gaza brings Hamas to power and in Iraq... don't act surprized when down he road, they elect a fucking fundamentalist Islamic cleric like Al Sadr or one of his cohorts to power.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I actually agree with you. Israel did have to respond, but they went too far and the casualties have been indiscrimminate. Secondly I did NOT say that the Israeli occupation gives Hezbollah the right to kidnap soldiers. What I did say is that the reason why they have not disbanded their military wing is because of their mistrust of Israel. No where did I say anything that justified the kidnappings or criminal actions of Hezbollah. Read the post again.
Its not good enough, this "mistrust of Israel" thing. You have to remember that Hezbollah is no Lebanese official army, they just took over southern Lebanon when Israel went there in 82, but unlike us they have never moved out. This is basically "Hezbollah-land" inside Lebanon, they are actually occuping Lebanese land and are doing what ever they feel like. Even Lebanese people (not all) are calling them "our cancer". Right now, they simply have no reason to be armed and no right to do these kind of things - not to us, not to Lebanon and not to anyone else.
I hope Its clear now, cause that's what I was really trying to say before - "mistrust of Israel" is really not a reason, its a lame excuse.
Wait a minute...
Wasn't the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon touted by President Bush and the people who continually suck his cock as a 'Good' thing for the Middle East... even when here were those of us who thought, while ruled with an iron fist, Syria was at least keeping Hezbolah and those other radical fucks under wraps. Democracy in Lebanon allows Hezbolah to gain power in the region... the same way Democracy in Gaza brings Hamas to power and in Iraq... don't act surprized when down he road, they elect a fucking fundamentalist Islamic cleric like Al Sadr or one of his cohorts to power.
Silly Cosmo, they are only free to choose what we want them to choose....
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Wait a minute...
Wasn't the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon touted by President Bush and the people who continually suck his cock as a 'Good' thing for the Middle East... even when here were those of us who thought, while ruled with an iron fist, Syria was at least keeping Hezbolah and those other radical fucks under wraps. Democracy in Lebanon allows Hezbolah to gain power in the region... the same way Democracy in Gaza brings Hamas to power and in Iraq... don't act surprized when down he road, they elect a fucking fundamentalist Islamic cleric like Al Sadr or one of his cohorts to power.
Good points about the possible ill effects of democracy in Lebanon. I don't know if Syria deserves any credit for holding back Hezbollah, though.
I don't know where I stand on this personally. It really is a bunch of kindergarten crap. "they started it" "no they did." ....
However, I usually tend to side with Israel in such conflicts. For the most part, Israel is fighting to be left alone, fighting for its survival. If people would leave Israel alone, I don't think they would go about bombing people.
Most of the other forces against it -- Hezbollah in this instance -- is fighting for the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace. They want every Jew dead. If you leave Hezbollah alone, they will continue killing Israelis.
So ... although I can see how both sides are doing bad shit, I tend to side with the folks fighting for survival, and not fighting for destruction.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I don't know where I stand on this personally. It really is a bunch of kindergarten crap. "they started it" "no they did." ....
However, I usually tend to side with Israel in such conflicts. For the most part, Israel is fighting to be left alone, fighting for its survival. If people would leave Israel alone, I don't think they would go about bombing people.
Most of the other forces against it -- Hezbollah in this instance -- is fighting for the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace. They want every Jew dead. If you leave Hezbollah alone, they will continue killing Israelis.
So ... although I can see how both sides are doing bad shit, I tend to side with the folks fighting for survival, and not fighting for destruction.
...
Sort of like who started the street war... the Crips or the Bloods, right? It ends up being swapping drive-bys in revenge for a revenge for a... who started this shit?
And you know who needs to step up and say, "FUCK THIS SHIT"... the Arabs not tied to radicals that are sick of this shit and are tired of seeing their people killed. Israel is not without fault and they also need to step up and admit to doing some fucked up shit.
But, they won't... they are BOTH assholes in my book... just like the fuckers in cars shooting up the place in their own neighborhoods. Assholes, all.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I am simply providing you with a motive. How can you believe that Hezbollah even exists for the purpose of "destroying Israel". Listen I know Hezbollah and Hamas have said Israel should be destroyed. You have to understand the angst in the region, people say all kinds of things when they are pissed off and don't know how to resolve a problem. What we are looking at here is the motive, from the mouth of the resistance. How can you believe as a decent human being that all these arabs are that inhumane? Have you ever been to the region? Do you know any arabs? They aren't violent people by "nature" they are distressed. What you see is the cause, in their words, they are telling you their motives and you discredit it because they said it.
Not violent. LMAO. Danish newspapers printed cartoons and other nespapers followed, and they tried to burn the planet to the ground.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
good point, with staying away from armored tanks and long range machine guns.
they should stay in cognito and walk into a cafe and detonate a backpack. there is much more honor in this process.
by the way.........i did like your rubliks cube/ying yang analogy.
be safe.
Hehe, I try. Yeah, you're right. It's backpack bombing thing really gets me. That's insane, and I'll never understand it. For that reason alone I can see the logic in why people support Israel. I just can't get my head around what kind of people think strapping on bombs and going "poof" is glorified martyrdom. Especially around innocent people. They are really just killing themselves (and their own people) both literally and figuratively.
Insane people doing insane things. Now is Isreal is making them insane like this? I dunno...is it really that bad? what the hell to do about it all. sigh... What fucked up belief teaches people to do this kind of thing?
Hehe, I try. Yeah, you're right. It's backpack bombing thing really gets me. That's insane, and I'll never understand it. For that reason alone I can see the logic in why people support Israel. I just can't get my head around what kind of people think that is glorified martyrdom. They are really just killing themselves (and their own people) bother literally and figuratively.
Insane people doing insane things. Now is Isreal is making them insane like this? I dunno... what the hell to do about it all. sigh...
Glad I am where I am.
We've had some good discussions of this topic. In a nutshell, my personal belief is that while oppression can and often does fuel terrorism (especially the ideology behind it), it still takes a certain kind of (mentally unwell) person to commit a suicide bombing.
Hehe, I try. Yeah, you're right. It's backpack bombing thing really gets me. That's insane, and I'll never understand it. For that reason alone I can see the logic in why people support Israel. I just can't get my head around what kind of people think strapping on bombs and going "poof" is glorified martyrdom. Especially around innocent people. They are really just killing themselves (and their own people) bother literally and figuratively.
Insane people doing insane things. Now is Isreal is making them insane like this? I dunno... what the hell to do about it all. sigh...
Glad I am where I am.
i agree with you, what the hell do we know about it all. while i was riding my bike a thought occured to me....
the thought plays out like this.
one person stands before you and has read everybook in print about climbing Mt. Everest and can speak eloquently about what you need to do in order to survive the climb.
the other person stands before you and has just completed the climb.
which person's wisdom will you listen?
indeed.......i am glad to be where i am as well.
be safe.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
We've had some good discussions of this topic. In a nutshell, my personal belief is that while oppression can and often does fuel terrorism (especially the ideology behind it), it still takes a certain kind of (mentally unwell) person to commit a suicide bombing.
Just the thought that I could be sitting somewhere quietly in public having a coffee and some whacko walks and in sits down beside me, and boom I'm dead.
If people are going to be like that. Fuck em - sprinkle some ajax on a scouring pad and scrub them off the face of the earth.
Can anyone provide insight on what society of people would be justified in doing that, or even encouraged to?
I can't imagine anyone who does that is worth being allowed to exist here on this planet with the rest of us. \
Lebanon should be helping Israel eradicate this mindset as well
i agree with you, what the hell do we know about it all. while i was riding my bike a thought occured to me....
the thought plays out like this.
one person stands before you and has read everybook in print about climbing Mt. Everest and can speak eloquently about what you need to do in order to survive the climb.
the other person stands before you and has just completed the climb.
which person's wisdom will you listen?
indeed.......i am glad to be where i am as well.
be safe.
Good analogy. I'm doing a bunch of reading rigght now about the history, and development of Hezzbolah. It seems to be the crux of all this crud...
Its not good enough, this "mistrust of Israel" thing. You have to remember that Hezbollah is no Lebanese official army, they just took over southern Lebanon when Israel went there in 82, but unlike us they have never moved out. This is basically "Hezbollah-land" inside Lebanon, they are actually occuping Lebanese land and are doing what ever they feel like. Even Lebanese people (not all) are calling them "our cancer". Right now, they simply have no reason to be armed and no right to do these kind of things - not to us, not to Lebanon and not to anyone else.
I hope Its clear now, cause that's what I was really trying to say before - "mistrust of Israel" is really not a reason, its a lame excuse.
I don't think it is. Lebonese people don't all hate Hezbollah. Some do and some agree with them. Many people see Hezbollah as heroes for ridding Israel from their land and others believe that Israel may try and invade again. For this reason they have not disbanded. 2000 was not long ago nor enough time to conclude that Lebanon is safe from Israel again.
I don't think it is. Lebonese people don't all hate Hezbollah. Some do and some agree with them. Many people see Hezbollah as heroes for ridding Israel from their land and others believe that Israel may try and invade again. For this reason they have not disbanded. 2000 was not long ago nor enough time to conclude that Lebanon is safe from Israel again.
Many people? Worng. Maybe now after all of our bombing but before that? they were a minority, but it didn't stop from the Hezbollah to take over the parlament and do what ever they wanted as if they were in the lead. Again, you must remember that Hezbollah can't be both an armed millition & a political party in the parlament. There is a country, it is called Lebanon, it has its own official army - what Hezbollah felt or did not feel is really irelevant, they had no right to decide anything but to follow the UN call to disarm.
And lets not forget Israel gave Lebanon no reason for a "mistrust" since 2000. Leabanon & northern Israel started recovering, turists started to come (you wouldn't believe how many beautiful places we have here in northern Israel) , the economical situation went better and at one point the late prime minister of Lebanon Hariri & Sharon started talking about peace and the options of returning prisoners. It didn't happen - Hariri was murdered by Asad's (Syria) people in Lebanon. Do you know who once worked (and still is working) for Syria? Hezbollah . Hezbollah & Syria? well, they are working for Iran, the ones who want to wipe Israel off the earth. So basically, you think foreign crazy countries and their "little" workers have the right to determine the political & strategic stands in Lebanon, right?
And what with this "2000 was not long ago"? I can say that the Belfast Agreement (Good Friday Agreement in 1998) was not long ago either, but still the IRA got rid of its arsenal till 2005. So how about Australia who was once ruled by Great Britain decides that they actually want the IRA with his full force around? do you think their opinion should matter? do you think they have the right to *determine* such a thing in Irland?
IT IS LAME, no matter which way we're gonna look at it - Hezbollah lost his right to be an armed force 6 years ago, end of story.
I truly feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's...they never wanted this war until hezbollah had to engage the conflict
Ahh, yes. Those poor Israelis having to suffer the fate of killing innocent civilians at will. I really do pity them for the fact that they have no choice but to commit war crimes and destroy an entire country. I mean, just look at what the poor Israelis are having to do in the name of peace, democracy and freedom:
Robert Fisk: A war crime?
This mother and son were in a convoy fleeing danger yesterday when the Israeli air force bombed the rear minibus, causing carnage.
Published: 24 July 2006
They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.
And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then - as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards - the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.
They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.
And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then - as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards - the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.
Article Length: 1038 words (approx.)
This is a terrorist organization who has no respect for human life at all....hopefully israel gets the job done
The word 'terrorism' is used very freely these days to describe what 'they' do to 'us'. What 'we' do to 'them' isn't terrorism though is it. It's interesting that the only country to have been charged with state terrorism is the U.S.
Ahh, yes. Those poor Israelis having to suffer the fate of killing innocent civilians at will. I really do pity them for the fact that they have no choice but to commit war crimes and destroy an entire country. I mean, just look at what the poor Israelis are having to do in the name of peace, democracy and freedom:
Such a demagogic response from you, Byrnzie. As if Israeli civilians are responsible for the situation, as if we don't suffer as well, as if the Hezbollah didn't do anything to start this whole sad stroy, as if Israeli civilians can control their gov actions, as if Israelis don't care about what's also going on in Lebanon. I guess that after all, you are also one of these one-sided black or white people, what a disappointment.
Such a demagogic response from you, Byrnzie. As if Israeli civilians are responsible for the situation, as we don't suffer as well, as if the Hezbollah didn't do anything to start this whole sad stroy, as if Israeli civilians can control their gov actions. I guess that after all, you are also one of these one-sided black or white people, what a disappointment.
I didn't mean it like that. I was responding to the initial post on this thread in which Miller stated: "I cant believe it...they've brought all this damage and destruction against the people of lebanon. I truly feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's...they never wanted this war until hezbollah had to engage the conflict."
This appears to place the blame for what is happening - including Israeli government and military crimes - upon Hizbollah, which I find to be a despicable viewpoint.
Such a demagogic response from you, Byrnzie. As if Israeli civilians are responsible for the situation, as if we don't suffer as well, as if the Hezbollah didn't do anything to start this whole sad stroy, as if Israeli civilians can control their gov actions, as if Israelis don't care about what's also going on in Lebanon. I guess that after all, you are also one of these one-sided black or white people, what a disappointment.
What came first, an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or the creation of Hezbollah?
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Comments
I wish I could have your experience over there. It would be very interesting to see firsthand. I don;t know what to think but I think after reading your post I think I'm seeing the repeating pattern throughout history. There is so much misinformation going on, it reminds me of another government I know... If what you sat about Israel opressing and expanding around the region is true, then I do see the picture now. And I do believe I've been fed Pro Israeli propaganda from various sources.
hmm.. Interesting. My first gut instinct was against Israel.
But I am not!!!
"
- Can you admit that you are there by force? That Israel has stolen the land?
- I already did, in MANY MANY posts that you didn't actually bother to read. We are in Lebanon now cause of the Hezbollah, there is no Israeli occupation in Lebanon since 2000, but we are still occuping lands in southern Isreal for really no good reason"
I am well aware to what's going on in Gaza area, and I'm also aware to what's going on right now in southern Israeli town of Sderot, Northern Israel and in Lebanon. I am not trying to justifay the killing of civilians, I never cliamed there is no occupation in the Gaza area. The only thing I keep saying is that Hezbollah IS a terror organization by all definitions since 2000 - end of story.
The IDF gets orderes from our gov, the same way US army and the rest of int armed forces in occupied Iraq do. Should we call them terrorists as well? I don't know. Are they just as bad as the Hezbollah? I don't know. All I know is that Hezbollah (non official army who acts via Lebanon) lost any reason to be an armed force since 2000, and the IDF or the US army (=Official army of a country) didn't.
I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger after many civilians were killed.
I sympathize with your situation and that your country is in the thick of things as well, but I cannot see Israel as only a victim when there have been hundreds of civilian Lebonese casualties at the expense of ony a dozen or so intended targets. This is not a measured or equal response. Even if Hezbollah is mostly destroyed, this will only conjure up more extremism/radicalism and hate towards Israel in a country that has been peaceful. Hezbollah was created in the same conditions that are presented now, so there will be a new Hezbollah soon enough I'm afraid.
sure, may all those who intentionally push a buttons that in the end killed an innocent civillians rot in hell...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Israel & Lebanon are BOTH the victims of a TERROR organization called hezbollah, I never said our response is measured , only we had the right to perform AN act. In fact, I've said more than once that I think our response is not measured, but that still doesn't change the fact that we HAD to responed to these events.
"I'm assuming that they maintain their military wing due to their mistrust of Israel due to their less than stellar history. 2000 was not that long ago and their is still lots of bitterness and anger"
So THAT gives the hezbollah the right to cross the Israeli border, kill and kidnap soliders? Are you kidding me? Well, according to that logic we should expect similar acts with Irland-England, right?
god...
Every story I've read says that Israeli troops crossed the border and the fighting took place in Israel. Still that's like if I bust down your door and let myself in, then run back outside and expect you not to do anything about it.
Really? Because I've encountered only ONE source that suggests that the first battle with Hezbollah in which the 2 soliders were kidnapped took place in Israel, and it was posted on here. Every other source (including many Arabic ones) claim that Hezbollah (encouraged by the initial kidnapping) attacked into Israel first, probably intending to open a second front in Lebanon.
I have no doubt that if they arrest Hezbollah chief, he'll respond to a court, sadly it won't be the same for the Israel govt. Bravo to the Israeli who condemn those attacks, even if they are a visible minority.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I actually agree with you. Israel did have to respond, but they went too far and the casualties have been indiscrimminate. Secondly I did NOT say that the Israeli occupation gives Hezbollah the right to kidnap soldiers. What I did say is that the reason why they have not disbanded their military wing is because of their mistrust of Israel. No where did I say anything that justified the kidnappings or criminal actions of Hezbollah. Read the post again.
Wasn't the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon touted by President Bush and the people who continually suck his cock as a 'Good' thing for the Middle East... even when here were those of us who thought, while ruled with an iron fist, Syria was at least keeping Hezbolah and those other radical fucks under wraps. Democracy in Lebanon allows Hezbolah to gain power in the region... the same way Democracy in Gaza brings Hamas to power and in Iraq... don't act surprized when down he road, they elect a fucking fundamentalist Islamic cleric like Al Sadr or one of his cohorts to power.
Hail, Hail!!!
Its not good enough, this "mistrust of Israel" thing. You have to remember that Hezbollah is no Lebanese official army, they just took over southern Lebanon when Israel went there in 82, but unlike us they have never moved out. This is basically "Hezbollah-land" inside Lebanon, they are actually occuping Lebanese land and are doing what ever they feel like. Even Lebanese people (not all) are calling them "our cancer". Right now, they simply have no reason to be armed and no right to do these kind of things - not to us, not to Lebanon and not to anyone else.
I hope Its clear now, cause that's what I was really trying to say before - "mistrust of Israel" is really not a reason, its a lame excuse.
Silly Cosmo, they are only free to choose what we want them to choose....
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Good points about the possible ill effects of democracy in Lebanon. I don't know if Syria deserves any credit for holding back Hezbollah, though.
However, I usually tend to side with Israel in such conflicts. For the most part, Israel is fighting to be left alone, fighting for its survival. If people would leave Israel alone, I don't think they would go about bombing people.
Most of the other forces against it -- Hezbollah in this instance -- is fighting for the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace. They want every Jew dead. If you leave Hezbollah alone, they will continue killing Israelis.
So ... although I can see how both sides are doing bad shit, I tend to side with the folks fighting for survival, and not fighting for destruction.
for the least they could possibly do
Sort of like who started the street war... the Crips or the Bloods, right? It ends up being swapping drive-bys in revenge for a revenge for a... who started this shit?
And you know who needs to step up and say, "FUCK THIS SHIT"... the Arabs not tied to radicals that are sick of this shit and are tired of seeing their people killed. Israel is not without fault and they also need to step up and admit to doing some fucked up shit.
But, they won't... they are BOTH assholes in my book... just like the fuckers in cars shooting up the place in their own neighborhoods. Assholes, all.
Hail, Hail!!!
they should stay in cognito and walk into a cafe and detonate a backpack. there is much more honor in this process.
by the way.........i did like your rubliks cube/ying yang analogy.
be safe.
Not violent. LMAO. Danish newspapers printed cartoons and other nespapers followed, and they tried to burn the planet to the ground.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Hehe, I try. Yeah, you're right. It's backpack bombing thing really gets me. That's insane, and I'll never understand it. For that reason alone I can see the logic in why people support Israel. I just can't get my head around what kind of people think strapping on bombs and going "poof" is glorified martyrdom. Especially around innocent people. They are really just killing themselves (and their own people) both literally and figuratively.
Insane people doing insane things. Now is Isreal is making them insane like this? I dunno...is it really that bad? what the hell to do about it all. sigh... What fucked up belief teaches people to do this kind of thing?
Glad I am where I am.
We've had some good discussions of this topic. In a nutshell, my personal belief is that while oppression can and often does fuel terrorism (especially the ideology behind it), it still takes a certain kind of (mentally unwell) person to commit a suicide bombing.
the thought plays out like this.
one person stands before you and has read everybook in print about climbing Mt. Everest and can speak eloquently about what you need to do in order to survive the climb.
the other person stands before you and has just completed the climb.
which person's wisdom will you listen?
indeed.......i am glad to be where i am as well.
be safe.
Just the thought that I could be sitting somewhere quietly in public having a coffee and some whacko walks and in sits down beside me, and boom I'm dead.
If people are going to be like that. Fuck em - sprinkle some ajax on a scouring pad and scrub them off the face of the earth.
Can anyone provide insight on what society of people would be justified in doing that, or even encouraged to?
I can't imagine anyone who does that is worth being allowed to exist here on this planet with the rest of us. \
Lebanon should be helping Israel eradicate this mindset as well
Good analogy. I'm doing a bunch of reading rigght now about the history, and development of Hezzbolah. It seems to be the crux of all this crud...
I don't think it is. Lebonese people don't all hate Hezbollah. Some do and some agree with them. Many people see Hezbollah as heroes for ridding Israel from their land and others believe that Israel may try and invade again. For this reason they have not disbanded. 2000 was not long ago nor enough time to conclude that Lebanon is safe from Israel again.
Many people? Worng. Maybe now after all of our bombing but before that? they were a minority, but it didn't stop from the Hezbollah to take over the parlament and do what ever they wanted as if they were in the lead. Again, you must remember that Hezbollah can't be both an armed millition & a political party in the parlament. There is a country, it is called Lebanon, it has its own official army - what Hezbollah felt or did not feel is really irelevant, they had no right to decide anything but to follow the UN call to disarm.
And lets not forget Israel gave Lebanon no reason for a "mistrust" since 2000. Leabanon & northern Israel started recovering, turists started to come (you wouldn't believe how many beautiful places we have here in northern Israel) , the economical situation went better and at one point the late prime minister of Lebanon Hariri & Sharon started talking about peace and the options of returning prisoners. It didn't happen - Hariri was murdered by Asad's (Syria) people in Lebanon. Do you know who once worked (and still is working) for Syria? Hezbollah . Hezbollah & Syria? well, they are working for Iran, the ones who want to wipe Israel off the earth. So basically, you think foreign crazy countries and their "little" workers have the right to determine the political & strategic stands in Lebanon, right?
And what with this "2000 was not long ago"? I can say that the Belfast Agreement (Good Friday Agreement in 1998) was not long ago either, but still the IRA got rid of its arsenal till 2005. So how about Australia who was once ruled by Great Britain decides that they actually want the IRA with his full force around? do you think their opinion should matter? do you think they have the right to *determine* such a thing in Irland?
IT IS LAME, no matter which way we're gonna look at it - Hezbollah lost his right to be an armed force 6 years ago, end of story.
Ahh, yes. Those poor Israelis having to suffer the fate of killing innocent civilians at will. I really do pity them for the fact that they have no choice but to commit war crimes and destroy an entire country. I mean, just look at what the poor Israelis are having to do in the name of peace, democracy and freedom:
http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00170/p1-240706_170773a.jpg
Robert Fisk: A war crime?
This mother and son were in a convoy fleeing danger yesterday when the Israeli air force bombed the rear minibus, causing carnage.
Published: 24 July 2006
They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.
And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then - as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards - the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.
They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.
And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then - as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards - the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.
Article Length: 1038 words (approx.)
The word 'terrorism' is used very freely these days to describe what 'they' do to 'us'. What 'we' do to 'them' isn't terrorism though is it. It's interesting that the only country to have been charged with state terrorism is the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_vs._United_States
Such a demagogic response from you, Byrnzie. As if Israeli civilians are responsible for the situation, as if we don't suffer as well, as if the Hezbollah didn't do anything to start this whole sad stroy, as if Israeli civilians can control their gov actions, as if Israelis don't care about what's also going on in Lebanon. I guess that after all, you are also one of these one-sided black or white people, what a disappointment.
I didn't mean it like that. I was responding to the initial post on this thread in which Miller stated: "I cant believe it...they've brought all this damage and destruction against the people of lebanon. I truly feel sorry for the lebanese people but especially the israeli's...they never wanted this war until hezbollah had to engage the conflict."
This appears to place the blame for what is happening - including Israeli government and military crimes - upon Hizbollah, which I find to be a despicable viewpoint.
What came first, an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or the creation of Hezbollah?
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!