Ever think how strange saying the Pledge of Allegiance is..?

Blanche

There are enough people here who make points with which I agree, so for me to defend my statements would be redundant.

Let me say this:
We were taught about freedom of choice, yet we didn't know we had a choice in the classroom, for example, to recite the pledge or not.

When you hear during assembly or morning announcements, "Let's all stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance," noone added, "But those of you who don't agree with or who don't understand the pledge are welcome to remain seated or stand silent."
The day I stopped reciting it, noone gave me trouble about it as long as I respected the others' right to recite.

Nonetheless, I still think it is wrong and absurd to indoctrinate kids, because that's what they're doing, with the pledge, the patriotic songs, and the history lessons that leave out certain details (like where Christopher Columbus really landed).
And I won't go into the questions of national identity that might be raised because of all this.

surferdude

Blanche wrote:

When you hear during assembly or morning announcements, "Let's all stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance," noone added, "But those of you who don't agree with or who don't understand the pledge are welcome to remain seated or stand silent."

So you not only want freedom of choice ,you want to force people to point out to you places where you can use your freedoms. You can't see it but I'm left shaking my head at this.

Abookamongstthemany

surferdude wrote:

So you not only want freedom of choice ,you want to force people to point out to you places where you can use your freedoms. You can't see it but I'm left shaking my head at this.

At school there are rules to follow what the teacher says. Ask for permission to speak and such. How can you use freedoms you aren't educated on?
It's like saying 'It was always there.Iit was posted in the cellar fifty years ago.' To that I'm shaking my head. Why tell children about anything at school then?

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

How can you use freedoms you aren't educated on?

How can you breathe if you weren't taught to breathe?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

How can you breathe if you weren't taught to breathe?

bc you do it automatically. if only we were born with all the knowledge we would ever need.

MrBrian

miller8966 wrote:

they can keep their customs..but americas customs come first.

1. the pledge

2. Speak english

American customs? what, should they also be stuffing their faces with burgers?

btw, most americans should return to english class themselves before they cry about other people needing to speak the language.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

bc you do it automatically.

And freedom works the same way. Just like breath, you can beat it out of a person. But until that point, they'll do it by default.

if only we were born with all the knowledge we would ever need.

The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

10 pages.....

because children at school....in america.....say the pledge....

un-fucking-real...............

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.

Principles such as respect are instilled by parents. Only after many years of reeducating oneself does one realize respect is earned and it shouldn't override one's own personal freedom. So feeling as if it is against the teacher's rules to not stand and fear of punishment where there shouldn't be any are big factors in the decision to stand.

hippiemom

farfromglorified wrote:

And freedom works the same way. Just like breath, you can beat it out of a person. But until that point, they'll do it by default.

Oh, but you can! It's even easier if you start early.

A human body will breathe when able. Barring monks with decades of practice behind them, people can only control their breathing within a very slim margin. If there is air available, your body is going to get it. The same cannot be said for liberty. It's quite possible to beat freedom out of most small children. I've certainly seen it happen more than a few times.

farfromglorified wrote:

The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.

At the age of 6 or 7, it doesn't extend from "an individual's principles." Some kids are more outgoing than others. Some are bolder than others. Some kids will be punished if the teacher calls home to complain about their behavior, others will not.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that early elementary-aged children have well thought out principles? I'm not saying that there aren't kids who will question what they are told. I, like you, was one of those children. But I also remember the wide-eyed stares from my classmates. It had never occurred to them that NOT doing what the teacher said was an option. We are the exceptions, not the rule, and how we treat small children should certainly not be based on our experience.

WickedJeremy

miller8966 wrote:

If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.

I just can't see where you're coming from bro. I can't believe that in order to show respect for a foreign country you must pledge your allegance to them. Haha, if you did do that, you could be barred from US re-entry for treason, defecting.

You should NOT be made to leave if you choose not to mar your identity and loyalty. Sounds like communism is on the rise again.

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

And children need to learn the power of their choice, rather than leaving that choice up to others.

EXACTLY!

Okay, how do children learn the POWER of their choice? DO they realize its power when they make a good decision? Nyah, maybe a little. But what about when they make a really bad decision? Yeah, that is when they learn this power. The power embodied in a decision is manifested more abundantly when that decision is wrong.

So, how do we avoid making bad decision?

We avoid making the wrong choice when we fully explore all the choices we actually have. When a child is in a classroom, sure, he doesn't have to salute the flag. I never did and never really received too much shit over it. But, had it not been for my parents direction, I would have stood up like everyone else. EVERYONE ELSE!

It has been proven, that when in doubt, a human will follow the pack...even when the group's direction defies his inner judgement. What kid is going to keep sitting there? I know I got several awkward questions that made me, as a child, feel very upset. I would rather have joined in...like EVERYONE ELSE was doing.

You must see that children with their young minds, actually have little choice in the matter of pledging one's allegiance. Not only because they do not understand the depth of the matter, but they are driven by their inner nature to follow the herd and this makes the choice NOT to salute virtually unreachable.

In this light of truth, the pledge in school is at least...a bad choice.

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

Children can think for themselves and do it everyday.

Sure they can. However, you aren't taking into account how impressionable they are. A child will make his early decisions based on what he sees his parents doing. They will usually agree with their parents and argue their parents case into the ground even if it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

fanch75

I never thought that teaching American kids to identify themselves as proud Americans was a bad thing. It's not like they're saying "America rules like Motley Crue in 1984, and everyone else are fucking assholes."

It's okay to like where you're from and to be proud of it (albeit America, Canada, wherever), it really is. I mean, I don't think kids in other countries are brainwashed fascists for reciting their pledge or singing their national anthem.

moeaholic

ok, just to throw this in:

i asked my 9 year old last night if he said the pledge in class every day and he said yes. i also asked him if he knew what it meant. he said he thought he did and told me. it was a good explanation for a 9 year old, he's got the slow and skinny of it. i also asked if he'd seen any other students refuse to stand and he said no. i also asked if his teachers ever told him and his class what the pledge meant and he said no. and lastly, i asked him if any of his teachers ever told him he had the choice to recite the pledge and he said no.

like i said to abook through pm...i can agree that it shouldn't be forced upon children to recite but presented as a choice they make, and it should also be explained what they're saying. but as far as calling it brainwashing...can't go that route.

that's it, i'm really done with this thread now. have fun, everyone:)

shes a peach

I remember saying the pledge as a kid in elementary school and not even listening to what I was saying anymore once I had memorized it. It seemed like a daily chore to me. Early on, only two kids would sit during the pledge and not recite it due to religious beliefs. But by middle school, less people were saying it and more were mumbling and I gave up on it. I don't remember teachers caring particularly and by senior year of high school only two girls would say it just as a competition to see who could shout it louder while the rest of us ignored them or hadn't arrived at school in time to say it. Other things bothered me more than the pledge during school, especially after I stopped being able to say it with conviction.

Blanche

I get the feeling that those of you who argue that kids can opt to not recite, that it's not indoctrination, etc., and who play with semantics, are making your points from a "grownup" perspective.

Try to remember how it was when you were a little kid.

Until the 6th grade, I was singing "God Bless America" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy" with as much heart as the other kids. I was just as proud as my classmates to be an American.
Except I wasn't American. (I wasn't feeling very French at that time, either. We all know the saying: "When in Rome...")

While it's a good thing to foster a sense of community, as one poster said earlier, I think it peculiar that this is instilled in kids' brains before they understand the meaning of what they are taught. Why is it that kids learn the pledge and the national anthem and all the patriotic songs when they are in kindergarten/1st grade, but only start learning about US history and institutions several years later? (Not to mention that US history lessons only mention the "good" parts.)
Kids learn the alphabet before they learn the words, how to print before using cursive text, the numbers before the mathematical operations.
Why is learning the pledge and its meaning so much different from basic schooling?

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with nationalism. But just like any -ism it can be misused. If we're going to remove nationalism from schools, you best be prepared to disband the schools -- the very foundation of public education is built upon nationalism.

The hell you say! Nothing fundamentally wring with nationalism.?!

Disband the schools? What better single action could be taken than that? This country needs an entire reformation of the school system.

WickedJeremy

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

The fact that some children are more timid than other doesn't mean I think they aren't smart. Shyness is hereditery. And even the smartest children obey when they would rather not. I never said I didn't think the entire public education system shouldn't be reformed. It completely sucks and when things aren't working, it's time for change. And it is in some areas. Our local schools here offer montessori along with traditional programs. The parents choose and it's still free.

You spend just one week in the halls of a Montessori and you will see how dismal a shape public schools are in. Montessori has their shit together! If tomorrow's leader come out of a Montessori then we will see improvements in this land.

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

However, if you or others here want teachers forced to describe every mundane option a child has or if you want the pledge banned, I'm a little too attached to my free speech to get on board with that.

Freedom of speech of this kind imposes too much on others and the young and yet unconditioned. You are not free if your actions of freedom impose on others.

I have made it more than clear how the flag salute IS actually an imposition. Like I said, a kid feels very weird when he chooses not to worship a flag. It is unfair to that child. On the other hand, it is in no way unfair to those that wnat to say it. They don't have to say it at school. Say it at home when they rise. Say it in your head. Say it on the way home. Why impose it upon others? Why laugh in the faceof freedom by continuing a radition that causes just discomfort? Take it out of school, just be done with it. Why is that so horrible a thing?