Ever think how strange saying the Pledge of Allegiance is..?
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We say the same pledge, every day, at the same time (in school) for at least 12 years.. everyone (well.. ideally everyone) goes to school and is trained to do this...
Ever think how bizzare and cult-like this practice is?
Ever think how bizzare and cult-like this practice is?
Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..
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Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
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The reason I am against children saying it? This is a verbal bond. AN pledge of literal allegiance. A devoutness to stand united with the United States of America. A child has not yet seen the world. How closed-minded to assume this is the best country! A child must know his/her options before making such a promise to an unseen entity.
Same way with baptism.
The relation between the two is enough for me to question it all anyway. But what do I know? I have a tongue in my cheek.
The pledge itself is flawed. How can this be "one nation under God". Indivisible? The hell it is. We're split right down the middle on everything.
while I can see how bizzare it may look, it is something to keep us unified as a country. no one faces jail time for not saying.
Well of course it's not illegal, but i'd say it's certainly immoral. Little kids aren't gonna question saying it and some people are so well programmed by this that they get pissed off when other's don't say it with them even at an old age (like some teachers of mine for example..).
If a cult family raised their kids to say some off the wall praise since they could talk you'd think it was pretty loopy.
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Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Yeah, that sounds like some kind of propagandish conditioning to me. No one considers the pledge. They don't even listen to what they are saying. They are reciting a program that makes them feel "at one" and it gives them a false sense of security.
I think it does. you think its doesnt. agree to disagree. that happens. in this country you have to the right to not say it if you choose. you can even tell your kids to not stand and turn their back to the flag. have at it. thats the best part about this country.
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but they're fucking 4 and 5 year olds!
They're going to say it!
And saying the damn thing for 12 years is a manipulative, cultist thing to do. (is "cultist" a word?
It's brainwashing.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
~Michael Bolton
If people were not here to complain or discuss why the hell have the forum in the first place.....
Well its pretty easy- If you want to pledge allegiance to only italy why dont you just live in italy? Honestly if Italy is so great than stay there.
Give me a break.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
He said the only flag he would pledge to would be italy. All i said was that if Italy was so great why didnt his parents stay there?
Probaly cause AMerica has given them a different and better opportunity than italy could
Well, I don't know the circumstances of his situation but just because he feels that Italy is the best country, his parents obviously didn't. Obviously, he can't make the sort of decision that would enable him to stay in Italy. But I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to fight you, just showing both sides.
especially that whole "and justice for all" part.
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Ok i understand
Until then, I had never questioned the words. And that's the problem. As little kids, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner, but not their meaning. We are conditioned to think of the US as the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, the Land of Opportunity and purple waves of grain.
(By the way, when I went to Catholic school, we didn't recite the pledge of allegiance at all, but we did have to say an occasional prayer.
The nuns handed me a few dittos and said, "Here are the prayers we recite."
And I thought, "Here we go again...")
Its an american tradition...why is it wrong for america to have traditions yet when any other country has a tradition and the people of that country bring it to america we must respectt it as "unique" when deep down we know it sucks.
We are just saying it should be explained and offered as a choice. The teachers don't do either of those.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Minus the "we know it sucks" part, you definitely have a point here.
That said, I'm not a big fan of the pledge. But rock on if that's your thing.
Really? I never had a teacher complain when I refused to say the pledge.
Yeah, but they don't tell the children they have the choice to not stand...or at least none of my teachers did.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Did anyone tell you that you had the choice to respond to my post or not? No, you figured that out on your own and chose accordingly.
Even as a young child, I didn't need anyone to tell me that I can control my voice and my body. And the very fact that we feel we need to tell people that it's ok to speak or not to speak says much about the pathetic state of our freedoms and our society.
I have no problem with them saying the pledge of allegiance in a school funded by the government as long as no child can be punished by the institution for refusing to participate. I do have a problem with those who want to absolve the child of the accountability for that choice (both positive and negative).
There are reasons behind traditions, but we don't always learn about them.
There's nothing wrong with having traditions. However, there's something wrong when little kids are expected to follow those traditions blindly.
That kids learn the history of the nation, that's normal.
That kids learn that the country where they live is The Most Powerful, The Most Enterprising, The Most Free and not really learning why, that's not normal.
Does respecting someone else's traditions suck?
I never lived in an atmosphere where people imposed their traditions in the US. They certainly respected their own holidays and rituals, but among themselves.
What does suck is imposing traditions and allowing little room for questioning these traditions.
It really doesn't mean that much for kids to say it. They don't know what they are saying and will consider it later when they are ready.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
They're not. Why do you assume that schools asking children to say the pledge of allegiance equates with "expecting them to follow those traditions blindly"?
Well, I have always been very shy until recently. I didn't like to talk in class at all. I didn't like standing for it but I didn't feel it was worth the unwanted attention at the time to say how I felt...I should have. But other than me, the other children didn't question it either. They are taught to obey and not cause trouble. I agree it is pathetic to let children be controlled like this but I didn't see any children opting not to stand. I think they don't feel they have an option. They don't have the option of walking to the bathroom if they choose, they must ask. They don't have the option of not taking a test if they choose not to. They are not allowed to sit where ever they choose. So I feel they think of the pledge as another command. I think they should have the choice to say it but it should be made clear that it is their choice. And they should teach the children about the meaning behind what they are reciting, also.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Wow. This post says so much. I agree with everything there, but I see it completely differently.
Did it ever occur to you to ask why so many children fit the mold you describe above?
The answer to the my above question lies in the ideology of your above statement.
They do. They still teach children American history and nationalism in school, don't they?