If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.
I just can't see where you're coming from bro. I can't believe that in order to show respect for a foreign country you must pledge your allegance to them. Haha, if you did do that, you could be barred from US re-entry for treason, defecting.
You should NOT be made to leave if you choose not to mar your identity and loyalty. Sounds like communism is on the rise again.
And children need to learn the power of their choice, rather than leaving that choice up to others.
EXACTLY!
Okay, how do children learn the POWER of their choice? DO they realize its power when they make a good decision? Nyah, maybe a little. But what about when they make a really bad decision? Yeah, that is when they learn this power. The power embodied in a decision is manifested more abundantly when that decision is wrong.
So, how do we avoid making bad decision?
We avoid making the wrong choice when we fully explore all the choices we actually have. When a child is in a classroom, sure, he doesn't have to salute the flag. I never did and never really received too much shit over it. But, had it not been for my parents direction, I would have stood up like everyone else. EVERYONE ELSE!
It has been proven, that when in doubt, a human will follow the pack...even when the group's direction defies his inner judgement. What kid is going to keep sitting there? I know I got several awkward questions that made me, as a child, feel very upset. I would rather have joined in...like EVERYONE ELSE was doing.
You must see that children with their young minds, actually have little choice in the matter of pledging one's allegiance. Not only because they do not understand the depth of the matter, but they are driven by their inner nature to follow the herd and this makes the choice NOT to salute virtually unreachable.
In this light of truth, the pledge in school is at least...a bad choice.
Children can think for themselves and do it everyday.
Sure they can. However, you aren't taking into account how impressionable they are. A child will make his early decisions based on what he sees his parents doing. They will usually agree with their parents and argue their parents case into the ground even if it is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I never thought that teaching American kids to identify themselves as proud Americans was a bad thing. It's not like they're saying "America rules like Motley Crue in 1984, and everyone else are fucking assholes."
It's okay to like where you're from and to be proud of it (albeit America, Canada, wherever), it really is. I mean, I don't think kids in other countries are brainwashed fascists for reciting their pledge or singing their national anthem.
i asked my 9 year old last night if he said the pledge in class every day and he said yes. i also asked him if he knew what it meant. he said he thought he did and told me. it was a good explanation for a 9 year old, he's got the slow and skinny of it. i also asked if he'd seen any other students refuse to stand and he said no. i also asked if his teachers ever told him and his class what the pledge meant and he said no. and lastly, i asked him if any of his teachers ever told him he had the choice to recite the pledge and he said no.
like i said to abook through pm...i can agree that it shouldn't be forced upon children to recite but presented as a choice they make, and it should also be explained what they're saying. but as far as calling it brainwashing...can't go that route.
that's it, i'm really done with this thread now. have fun, everyone:)
"PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
~Michael Bolton
I remember saying the pledge as a kid in elementary school and not even listening to what I was saying anymore once I had memorized it. It seemed like a daily chore to me. Early on, only two kids would sit during the pledge and not recite it due to religious beliefs. But by middle school, less people were saying it and more were mumbling and I gave up on it. I don't remember teachers caring particularly and by senior year of high school only two girls would say it just as a competition to see who could shout it louder while the rest of us ignored them or hadn't arrived at school in time to say it. Other things bothered me more than the pledge during school, especially after I stopped being able to say it with conviction.
I'm the Peachmeister!
2003-Albany, Mansfield I, Camden I, MSG I
2006-Hartford
2008-Mansfield II
EV NYC I +II
2009-EV Philly
2010-MSG I + II
2013-Worchester
I get the feeling that those of you who argue that kids can opt to not recite, that it's not indoctrination, etc., and who play with semantics, are making your points from a "grownup" perspective.
Try to remember how it was when you were a little kid.
Until the 6th grade, I was singing "God Bless America" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy" with as much heart as the other kids. I was just as proud as my classmates to be an American.
Except I wasn't American. (I wasn't feeling very French at that time, either. We all know the saying: "When in Rome...")
While it's a good thing to foster a sense of community, as one poster said earlier, I think it peculiar that this is instilled in kids' brains before they understand the meaning of what they are taught. Why is it that kids learn the pledge and the national anthem and all the patriotic songs when they are in kindergarten/1st grade, but only start learning about US history and institutions several years later? (Not to mention that US history lessons only mention the "good" parts.)
Kids learn the alphabet before they learn the words, how to print before using cursive text, the numbers before the mathematical operations.
Why is learning the pledge and its meaning so much different from basic schooling?
And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with nationalism. But just like any -ism it can be misused. If we're going to remove nationalism from schools, you best be prepared to disband the schools -- the very foundation of public education is built upon nationalism.
The hell you say! Nothing fundamentally wring with nationalism.?!
Disband the schools? What better single action could be taken than that? This country needs an entire reformation of the school system.
The fact that some children are more timid than other doesn't mean I think they aren't smart. Shyness is hereditery. And even the smartest children obey when they would rather not. I never said I didn't think the entire public education system shouldn't be reformed. It completely sucks and when things aren't working, it's time for change. And it is in some areas. Our local schools here offer montessori along with traditional programs. The parents choose and it's still free.
You spend just one week in the halls of a Montessori and you will see how dismal a shape public schools are in. Montessori has their shit together! If tomorrow's leader come out of a Montessori then we will see improvements in this land.
However, if you or others here want teachers forced to describe every mundane option a child has or if you want the pledge banned, I'm a little too attached to my free speech to get on board with that.
Freedom of speech of this kind imposes too much on others and the young and yet unconditioned. You are not free if your actions of freedom impose on others.
I have made it more than clear how the flag salute IS actually an imposition. Like I said, a kid feels very weird when he chooses not to worship a flag. It is unfair to that child. On the other hand, it is in no way unfair to those that wnat to say it. They don't have to say it at school. Say it at home when they rise. Say it in your head. Say it on the way home. Why impose it upon others? Why laugh in the faceof freedom by continuing a radition that causes just discomfort? Take it out of school, just be done with it. Why is that so horrible a thing?
anyone else find it absofuckinlutely hillarious how some people just cannot handle open debate?
this thread made me think of that.
oh, and yes, i think saying the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is very strange.
peace
lz
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever. Because this is just a ride." And we...kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok? But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
--Bill Hicks
Freedom of speech of this kind imposes too much on others and the young and yet unconditioned. You are not free if your actions of freedom impose on others.
That's ridiculous. It's like suggesting that you are not free because sometimes it rains. Freedom isn't a measure of control over others or your environment, it is a measure of control of self.
I have made it more than clear how the flag salute IS actually an imposition. Like I said, a kid feels very weird when he chooses not to worship a flag. It is unfair to that child. On the other hand, it is in no way unfair to those that wnat to say it. They don't have to say it at school. Say it at home when they rise. Say it in your head. Say it on the way home. Why impose it upon others? Why laugh in the faceof freedom by continuing a radition that causes just discomfort? Take it out of school, just be done with it. Why is that so horrible a thing?
It is not imposed on others just because it exists within the same environment. Again, in the cases where children are forced to do this, I'll agree with you. I've seen nothing to suggest that those instances are anything but few and far between.
Principles such as respect are instilled by parents. Only after many years of reeducating oneself does one realize respect is earned and it shouldn't override one's own personal freedom. So feeling as if it is against the teacher's rules to not stand and fear of punishment where there shouldn't be any are big factors in the decision to stand.
Principles are instilled by life and the concomittant experience that comes with it. Parents are only one possible source.
Oh, but you can! It's even easier if you start early.
A human body will breathe when able. Barring monks with decades of practice behind them, people can only control their breathing within a very slim margin. If there is air available, your body is going to get it. The same cannot be said for liberty. It's quite possible to beat freedom out of most small children. I've certainly seen it happen more than a few times.
It's also quite possible to beat the breath out of a child. I wouldn't recommend that any more than beating freedom out of them.
At the age of 6 or 7, it doesn't extend from "an individual's principles." Some kids are more outgoing than others. Some are bolder than others. Some kids will be punished if the teacher calls home to complain about their behavior, others will not.
And what, pray tell, is responsible for those differnces?
Are you honestly trying to tell me that early elementary-aged children have well thought out principles?
No. I'm trying to tell you not to prevent them from forming those principles.
Oh yeah! I do not believe we shold allow children to recite this ritual. I understand it programs them at an early age to bein concordance witht the government. This is why it is done, it is good from a single and empty point of view.
The reason I am against children saying it? This is a verbal bond. AN pledge of literal allegiance. A devoutness to stand united with the United States of America. A child has not yet seen the world. How closed-minded to assume this is the best country! A child must know his/her options before making such a promise to an unseen entity.
Same way with baptism.
The relation between the two is enough for me to question it all anyway. But what do I know? I have a tongue in my cheek.
The pledge itself is flawed. How can this be "one nation under God". Indivisible? The hell it is. We're split right down the middle on everything.
I dont see your view. I think America is the best country in the world. By saying that I dont mean that I support everything that Bush has done ...hell no. I support the military and by that I mean the people (servicemembers and families) who are sacraficing so much so that other people can enjoy the freedoms that so many take for granted. When I said the pledge every morning in school I didnt say it and think about the left or right parties who think this is some kind of game. I thought about all the good that America stands for. I thought about how lucky I am to watch TV and hear positive and negative things about our politics and government. I thought how lucky I am to live in a country that if I dont believe in the relegion that I was brought up to that I wont be killed for denouncing god later. With that being said I dont mean other countries are inadequate. Any country that promotes freedom in all aspects of life is a wonderful country. I currently have the opportunity to live overseas in S. Korea. I love it here, the people of S. Korea are free to protest the politicians in the streets of downtown Seoul and dont need to worry about their families getting tortured later that evening. Fifty miles north though is a different situation. People dont have enough food, people are dying for no reason other than their dictator is a heartless coward.
I look foward to hearing your thoughts on my little rant here.
Where I live there is no pledge of allegiance, not that I know of... I don't know the words to the national anthem, in fact I personally don't know anybody who does...
so to me it is a little strange and the "one nation under god" is very strange in my opinion.
Comments
I just can't see where you're coming from bro. I can't believe that in order to show respect for a foreign country you must pledge your allegance to them. Haha, if you did do that, you could be barred from US re-entry for treason, defecting.
You should NOT be made to leave if you choose not to mar your identity and loyalty. Sounds like communism is on the rise again.
EXACTLY!
Okay, how do children learn the POWER of their choice? DO they realize its power when they make a good decision? Nyah, maybe a little. But what about when they make a really bad decision? Yeah, that is when they learn this power. The power embodied in a decision is manifested more abundantly when that decision is wrong.
So, how do we avoid making bad decision?
We avoid making the wrong choice when we fully explore all the choices we actually have. When a child is in a classroom, sure, he doesn't have to salute the flag. I never did and never really received too much shit over it. But, had it not been for my parents direction, I would have stood up like everyone else. EVERYONE ELSE!
It has been proven, that when in doubt, a human will follow the pack...even when the group's direction defies his inner judgement. What kid is going to keep sitting there? I know I got several awkward questions that made me, as a child, feel very upset. I would rather have joined in...like EVERYONE ELSE was doing.
You must see that children with their young minds, actually have little choice in the matter of pledging one's allegiance. Not only because they do not understand the depth of the matter, but they are driven by their inner nature to follow the herd and this makes the choice NOT to salute virtually unreachable.
In this light of truth, the pledge in school is at least...a bad choice.
Sure they can. However, you aren't taking into account how impressionable they are. A child will make his early decisions based on what he sees his parents doing. They will usually agree with their parents and argue their parents case into the ground even if it is wrong, wrong, wrong.
It's okay to like where you're from and to be proud of it (albeit America, Canada, wherever), it really is. I mean, I don't think kids in other countries are brainwashed fascists for reciting their pledge or singing their national anthem.
i asked my 9 year old last night if he said the pledge in class every day and he said yes. i also asked him if he knew what it meant. he said he thought he did and told me. it was a good explanation for a 9 year old, he's got the slow and skinny of it. i also asked if he'd seen any other students refuse to stand and he said no. i also asked if his teachers ever told him and his class what the pledge meant and he said no. and lastly, i asked him if any of his teachers ever told him he had the choice to recite the pledge and he said no.
like i said to abook through pm...i can agree that it shouldn't be forced upon children to recite but presented as a choice they make, and it should also be explained what they're saying. but as far as calling it brainwashing...can't go that route.
that's it, i'm really done with this thread now. have fun, everyone:)
~Michael Bolton
2003-Albany, Mansfield I, Camden I, MSG I
2006-Hartford
2008-Mansfield II
EV NYC I +II
2009-EV Philly
2010-MSG I + II
2013-Worchester
Try to remember how it was when you were a little kid.
Until the 6th grade, I was singing "God Bless America" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy" with as much heart as the other kids. I was just as proud as my classmates to be an American.
Except I wasn't American. (I wasn't feeling very French at that time, either. We all know the saying: "When in Rome...")
While it's a good thing to foster a sense of community, as one poster said earlier, I think it peculiar that this is instilled in kids' brains before they understand the meaning of what they are taught. Why is it that kids learn the pledge and the national anthem and all the patriotic songs when they are in kindergarten/1st grade, but only start learning about US history and institutions several years later? (Not to mention that US history lessons only mention the "good" parts.)
Kids learn the alphabet before they learn the words, how to print before using cursive text, the numbers before the mathematical operations.
Why is learning the pledge and its meaning so much different from basic schooling?
The hell you say! Nothing fundamentally wring with nationalism.?!
Disband the schools? What better single action could be taken than that? This country needs an entire reformation of the school system.
You spend just one week in the halls of a Montessori and you will see how dismal a shape public schools are in. Montessori has their shit together! If tomorrow's leader come out of a Montessori then we will see improvements in this land.
Freedom of speech of this kind imposes too much on others and the young and yet unconditioned. You are not free if your actions of freedom impose on others.
I have made it more than clear how the flag salute IS actually an imposition. Like I said, a kid feels very weird when he chooses not to worship a flag. It is unfair to that child. On the other hand, it is in no way unfair to those that wnat to say it. They don't have to say it at school. Say it at home when they rise. Say it in your head. Say it on the way home. Why impose it upon others? Why laugh in the faceof freedom by continuing a radition that causes just discomfort? Take it out of school, just be done with it. Why is that so horrible a thing?
this thread made me think of that.
oh, and yes, i think saying the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is very strange.
peace
lz
--Bill Hicks
That's ridiculous. It's like suggesting that you are not free because sometimes it rains. Freedom isn't a measure of control over others or your environment, it is a measure of control of self.
It is not imposed on others just because it exists within the same environment. Again, in the cases where children are forced to do this, I'll agree with you. I've seen nothing to suggest that those instances are anything but few and far between.
Principles are instilled by life and the concomittant experience that comes with it. Parents are only one possible source.
It's also quite possible to beat the breath out of a child. I wouldn't recommend that any more than beating freedom out of them.
And what, pray tell, is responsible for those differnces?
No. I'm trying to tell you not to prevent them from forming those principles.
By suffering the consequences of that choice.
Certainly.
Certainly.
By learning which decisions run counter to our purposes, of course.
Ok. Then why make that pack stronger?
One who has no interest in standing. One who is learning that self respect is based on your standards, not someone else's reactions.
Then encourage kids not to make it. But don't force its abolition on those who disagree with you.
Yes. Pride in nation is not a bad thing when that nation deserves pride.
Very much so, yes.
I dont see your view. I think America is the best country in the world. By saying that I dont mean that I support everything that Bush has done ...hell no. I support the military and by that I mean the people (servicemembers and families) who are sacraficing so much so that other people can enjoy the freedoms that so many take for granted. When I said the pledge every morning in school I didnt say it and think about the left or right parties who think this is some kind of game. I thought about all the good that America stands for. I thought about how lucky I am to watch TV and hear positive and negative things about our politics and government. I thought how lucky I am to live in a country that if I dont believe in the relegion that I was brought up to that I wont be killed for denouncing god later. With that being said I dont mean other countries are inadequate. Any country that promotes freedom in all aspects of life is a wonderful country. I currently have the opportunity to live overseas in S. Korea. I love it here, the people of S. Korea are free to protest the politicians in the streets of downtown Seoul and dont need to worry about their families getting tortured later that evening. Fifty miles north though is a different situation. People dont have enough food, people are dying for no reason other than their dictator is a heartless coward.
I look foward to hearing your thoughts on my little rant here.
-John
Go Cubs!
Whatever.
Nevermind.
hello helllo how low
so to me it is a little strange and the "one nation under god" is very strange in my opinion.
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