Ever think how strange saying the Pledge of Allegiance is..?

WickedJeremy

The answer to the my above question lies in the ideology of your above statement.

I'm gonna quote that line for the rest of my life!

Pearl Jam and toast

WickedJeremy wrote:

Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.

It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means. And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd. You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning. Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.

I agree with this.

farfromglorified

WickedJeremy wrote:

Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.

:rolleyes:

Of all the "blind religions", patriotism is the least harmful. Patriotism is the only religion that, by default at least, doesn't ask you to abandon your self interest.

It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means.

Then refuse. Hold as a standard the fact that you don't follow anything blindly. Demand answers, if you feel you must. But until I hear of kids being punished en masse for such behavior, I'm not going to consider it much of an issue.

And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd.

Odd since it worked for you, and for me (before we were even adults, perhaps).

You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning.

Do you not realize you're asking for the same thing, just with a different goal?

Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.

No. Patriotism can be faith-based. It doesn't, however, have to be.

Something becomes "religious" when it requires faith and institution. Systems of false pride in which society bends over backwards to accomodate the individuality of someone too afraid to suffer the consequences of their behavior are as much as a religion as systems of patriotism.

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

:rolleyes:


Odd since it worked for you, and for me (before we were even adults, perhaps).

Do you not realize you're asking for the same thing, just with a different goal?

I'm not asking for the same thing at all. If you mean conformity, yeah, I want everyone to conform to the idea that they have their head's in their asses and let everyone else be.

By the way, it isn't odd at all. I've never uttered the pledge in my life and pround of it. I was lucky to have parents with a vision and opened my eyes early. It didn't take me long to understand how right they were. I am happy and free today in more ways than America could ever promise.

I'm not saying fuck America, I just saying what's so special about it that you should PLEDGE YOUR VERY LIFE TO IT!?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Wow. This post says so much. I agree with everything there, but I see it completely differently.

Did it ever occur to you to ask why so many children fit the mold you describe above?

Did it occur to you that I have asked myself that question many times? Or do you think you have the market cornered on such thoughts? As I have already stated, children are taught to obey and follow not think for themselves and question. The parents were raised this way and they pass it on to their children and the schools enforce it. I would hope schools would be a place for children to escape the stagnant ways of poorer parenting...but no. Children are taught early on they will be punished for stepping out of line and speaking out of turn.

farfromglorified wrote:

The answer to the my above question lies in the ideology of your above statement.

I suppose we should take babies from bad parents at birth so we can break this cycle. I know my mother told me to always obey my teachers and for that matter, she beat my ass and constantly yelled at me when I disobeyed. And I know it wasn't just me who had this problem.

farfromglorified wrote:

They do. They still teach children American history and nationalism in school, don't they?

not early on, in kindergarten and in elementary school, we were taught certain dates and events but not too much on concepts and processing information and thoughts. Children are taught to memorize not think and are hardly ever encouraged to question.

Pearl Jam and toast

that i don't feel like quoting..

Patriotism (more specifically nationalism) is one of the most harmful things man has ever conjured up. I think the relation to religion is fair. People kill and die for both, many times without so much as questioning why. Also, both of those things make people do crazy things (or at least support crazy things.. like wars.. whether or not nationalism/relgion is the actual cause of these wars is up for debate depending on what exactly you're talking about).

Edit: I think we can say that when patriotism goes into that 'religious' state it becomes nationalism


You said "Odd it worked for you and me" about just simply refusing to say the pledge. I've been the only person in my classes (except my AP history class with its share of skeptical bright kids) to refuse to say the pledge. Most people say it the entire time they're in school... Maybe it's not going to school anymore and saying it every morning that breaks the habit. People grow up you know?

WickedJeremy

Originally Posted by farfromglorified wrote:

They do. They still teach children American history and nationalism in school, don't they?

Yeah, at an early age I was taught that a murderous bastard named Christopher Columbus was a hero.

farfromglorified

WickedJeremy wrote:

I'm not asking for the same thing at all. If you mean conformity, yeah, I want everyone to conform to the idea that they have their head's in their asses and let everyone else be.

You're asking everyone else to conform to your idea of right and wrong. If conformity is your enemy, demand the right of every individual to choose their actions and accept the consequences accordingly.

By the way, it isn't odd at all. I've never uttered the pledge in my life and pround of it. I was lucky to have parents with a vision and opened my eyes early. It didn't take me long to understand how right they were. I am happy and free today in more ways than America could ever promise.

Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?

I'm not saying fuck America, I just saying what's so special about it that you should PLEDGE YOUR VERY LIFE TO IT!?

You can say fuck America as much as you'd like. And the freedom to do so is the same freedom that allows someone to say God Bless America as much as they'd like.


The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

moeaholic wrote:

is there any god damn thing people will not whine and moan about here? anything at all?

NOPE!!!!!

welcome to the moving train....

farfromglorified

WickedJeremy wrote:

Yeah, at an early age I was taught that a murderous bastard named Christopher Columbus was a hero.

Ok. And did you believe that?

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

You can say fuck America as much as you'd like. And the freedom to do so is the same freedom that allows someone to say God Bless America as much as they'd like.


The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself.

That's not really where I tried to take this thread (though I don't think anyone can disagree with what you said there - nor do I think that's what wickedjeremy was trying to disprove really).

The topic is that we're programming our kids to say this pledge before they know they can just not say it. I wouldn't say it's nessecarily a bad thing (although the under god thing can come into question - AND PLEASE DONT ARGUE ABOUT THIS, THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE), but it's definetly brainwashing and very very creepy.

Pearl Jam and toast

Of course we believed Chris Columbus was a hero back then. We believed and did what we were told - you did too.

farfromglorified

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Patriotism (more specifically nationalism) is one of the most harmful things man has ever conjured up. I think the relation to religion is fair. People kill and die for both, many times without so much as questioning why. Also, both of those things make people do crazy things (or at least support crazy things.. like wars.. whether or not nationalism/relgion is the actual cause of these wars is up for debate depending on what exactly you're talking about).

Ok. I don't disagree that patriotism or nationalism can't be related to religion. But to pretend that the relation is an absolute is silly.

Religion requires faith. Patriotism and nationalism, while often defined by faith, do not require it.

You said "Odd it worked for you and me" about just simply refusing to say the pledge. I've been the only person in my classes (except my AP history class with its share of skeptical bright kids) to refuse to say the pledge. Most people say it the entire time they're in school...

So? Should they not have that choice?

Maybe it's not going to school anymore and saying it every morning that breaks the habit. People grow up you know?

They sure do. Reciting a pledge isn't necessarily awful. You speak of it as if it's an infectious evil. Most kids don't give it a second thought, perhaps for good reason, sometimes without. Some wholeheartedly believe it, perhaps without reason, sometimes with. Others completely reject it, sometimes without reason, sometimes with.

It's a bunch of words. Can it be misused and can it contribute to stupidity? Sure! But that doesn't make it any different than anything done within the halls of school rooms.

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok. I don't disagree that patriotism or nationalism can't be related to religion. But to pretend that the relation is an absolute is silly.

Religion requires faith. Patriotism and nationalism, while often defined by faith, do not require it.

i agree with that and edited my post (before you posted this actually) to make it more clear.

the pit is moving a bit slow tonight isn't it?

farfromglorified

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

That's not really where I tried to take this thread (though I don't think anyone can disagree with what you said there - nor do I think that's what wickedjeremy was trying to disprove really).

The topic is that we're programming our kids to say this pledge before they know they can just not say it. I wouldn't say it's nessecarily a bad thing (although the under god thing can come into question - AND PLEASE DONT ARGUE ABOUT THIS, THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE), but it's definetly brainwashing and very very creepy.

Then don't respond with opposite brainwashing. Provide the freedom for choice and respect the choices people make.

The world can't provide an asterisk for every nugget of stupidity out there, nor does anyone have the obligation to change a behavior that is not forced upon you.

farfromglorified

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

Of course we believed Chris Columbus was a hero back then. We believed and did what we were told - you did too.

Don't tell me what I believed, particularly since you can't tell me what I was told.

No one ever told me that Chris Columbus was a hero, nor did I ever believe it.

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

Don't tell me what I believed, particularly since you can't tell me what I was told.

No one ever told me that Chris Columbus was a hero, nor did I ever believe it.

oh cmonnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

That's the first thing you've said here that I just can't believe a bit of.

When you were in first grade decorating for Thanksgiving and the teacher said "Columbus sailed the ocean blue, the pilgrims made friends with the indians and everyone had a feast" Columbus was in your 'good guy' category.

Every single person taught in America went through that.

WickedJeremy

"""You're asking everyone else to conform to your idea of right and wrong. If conformity is your enemy, demand the right of every individual to choose their actions and accept the consequences accordingly."""

You are speaking paradoxically. How can I respond?



"""Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?"""

What?!



"""You can say fuck America as much as you'd like."""

You aren't even listening.


"""The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself."""

I see many paths my friend. I don't fall in many holes. You are trying to dig holes in front of me. Maybe you don't believe yourself and are just trying to have a good time, but your philosophy falls into itself almost childlike.

G'night

moeaholic

reading through the rest of this thread there's a commonality. "the teachers never told us we didn't have to say it, the teachers never told us what it was we were reciting." where the fuck were your parents? i can't remember what grade i was in (way too long ago), but i do remember asking my mom what the pledge of allegiance meant and she told me. through my 12 years of schooling, i never witnessed a teacher reprimand someone for not standing and reciting the pledge. not that there were constantly people not participating, but there were some sprinkled in through junior high and high school. i'm sick and tired of some of the posts around here. "oh, it's brainwashing, they're controlling you." oh, fuck off. it's not a cult, it's not brainwashing, it's a fucking poem. get a grip. if you don't like it, don't say it. if you have kids and don't want them to say it, tell them not to (which, incidentally, is the same damn thing some are complaining about...telling children to do something when they should be making up their own mind.)

what's wrong with a little pride in your country?

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

Then don't respond with opposite brainwashing. Provide the freedom for choice and respect the choices people make.

The world can't provide an asterisk for every nugget of stupidity out there, nor does anyone have the obligation to change a behavior that is not forced upon you.

Opposite brainwashing?

Stopping a brainwashing process is not "opposite brainwashing" it's stopping the process. Kids that age don't question it when their teachers tell them to recite the pledge, they just do it. True freedom would be to keep it out of our schools (that doesn't mean ban it, that means stop saying it every morning like we've been talking about - don't put words in my mouth here )