Ever think how strange saying the Pledge of Allegiance is..?

farfromglorified

miller8966 wrote:

Its an american tradition...why is it wrong for america to have traditions yet when any other country has a tradition and the people of that country bring it to america we must respectt it as "unique" when deep down we know it sucks.

Minus the "we know it sucks" part, you definitely have a point here.

That said, I'm not a big fan of the pledge. But rock on if that's your thing.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

We are just saying it should be explained and offered as a choice. The teachers don't do either of those.

Really? I never had a teacher complain when I refused to say the pledge.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Really? I never had a teacher complain when I refused to say the pledge.

Yeah, but they don't tell the children they have the choice to not stand...or at least none of my teachers did.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Yeah, but they don't tell the children they have the choice to not stand...or at least none of my teachers did.

Did anyone tell you that you had the choice to respond to my post or not? No, you figured that out on your own and chose accordingly.

Even as a young child, I didn't need anyone to tell me that I can control my voice and my body. And the very fact that we feel we need to tell people that it's ok to speak or not to speak says much about the pathetic state of our freedoms and our society.

I have no problem with them saying the pledge of allegiance in a school funded by the government as long as no child can be punished by the institution for refusing to participate. I do have a problem with those who want to absolve the child of the accountability for that choice (both positive and negative).

Blanche

miller8966 wrote:

Its an american tradition...why is it wrong for america to have traditions yet when any other country has a tradition and the people of that country bring it to america we must respectt it as "unique" when deep down we know it sucks.

Like Abook said.
There are reasons behind traditions, but we don't always learn about them.

There's nothing wrong with having traditions. However, there's something wrong when little kids are expected to follow those traditions blindly.
That kids learn the history of the nation, that's normal.
That kids learn that the country where they live is The Most Powerful, The Most Enterprising, The Most Free and not really learning why, that's not normal.

Does respecting someone else's traditions suck?
I never lived in an atmosphere where people imposed their traditions in the US. They certainly respected their own holidays and rituals, but among themselves.
What does suck is imposing traditions and allowing little room for questioning these traditions.

know1

I wouldn't say the pledge of allegianc anymore, although I didn't think about it much when I was a kid. I think blind Nationalism is for idiots.

It really doesn't mean that much for kids to say it. They don't know what they are saying and will consider it later when they are ready.

farfromglorified

Blanche wrote:

However, there's something wrong when little kids are expected to follow those traditions blindly.

They're not. Why do you assume that schools asking children to say the pledge of allegiance equates with "expecting them to follow those traditions blindly"?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Did anyone tell you that you had the choice to respond to my post or not? No, you figured that out on your own and chose accordingly.

Even as a young child, I didn't need anyone to tell me that I can control my voice and my body. And the very fact that we feel we need to tell people that it's ok to speak or not to speak says much about the pathetic state of our freedoms and our society.

I have no problem with them saying the pledge of allegiance in a school funded by the government as long as no child can be punished by the institution for refusing to participate. I do have a problem with those who want to absolve the child of the accountability for that choice (both positive and negative).

Well, I have always been very shy until recently. I didn't like to talk in class at all. I didn't like standing for it but I didn't feel it was worth the unwanted attention at the time to say how I felt...I should have. But other than me, the other children didn't question it either. They are taught to obey and not cause trouble. I agree it is pathetic to let children be controlled like this but I didn't see any children opting not to stand. I think they don't feel they have an option. They don't have the option of walking to the bathroom if they choose, they must ask. They don't have the option of not taking a test if they choose not to. They are not allowed to sit where ever they choose. So I feel they think of the pledge as another command. I think they should have the choice to say it but it should be made clear that it is their choice. And they should teach the children about the meaning behind what they are reciting, also.

jlew24asu

I was always proud to say it. and i still am. most people here disagree. so be it

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Well, I have always been very shy until recently. I didn't like to talk in class at all. I didn't like standing for it but I didn't feel it was worth the unwanted attention at the time to say how I felt...I should have. But other than me, the other children didn't question it either. They are taught to obey and not cause trouble. I agree it is pathetic to let children be controlled like this but I didn't see any children opting not to stand. I think they don't feel they have an option. They don't have the option of walking to the bathroom if they choose, they must ask. They don't have the option of not taking a test if they choose not to. They are not allowed to sit where ever they choose. So I feel they think of the pledge as another command. I think they should have the choice to say it

Wow. This post says so much. I agree with everything there, but I see it completely differently.

Did it ever occur to you to ask why so many children fit the mold you describe above?

but it should be made clear that it is their choice.

The answer to the my above question lies in the ideology of your above statement.

And they should teach the children about the meaning behind what they are reciting, also.

They do. They still teach children American history and nationalism in school, don't they?

WickedJeremy

miller8966 wrote:

Well its pretty easy- If you want to pledge allegiance to only italy why dont you just live in italy? Honestly if Italy is so great than stay there.

It is attitudes like yours that fucks everything up. Aren't you listening? Like you'd pledge allegience to another country! Miller didn't say a word either way on how great Italy is.

chrisg72

jlew24asu wrote:

I was always proud to say it. and i still am. most people here disagree. so be it

I agree.

WickedJeremy

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Well, I don't know the circumstances of his situation but just because he feels that Italy is the best country, his parents obviously didn't. Obviously, he can't make the sort of decision that would enable him to stay in Italy. But I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to fight you, just showing both sides.

Why can't BOTH places be great?

What is wrong with a person when they swear off reason and blindly follow the religion of patriotism? Patriotism is the cancer of the human race. That and stupidity.

Oh and sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person ealier or something.

Pearl Jam and toast

miller8966 wrote:

He said the only flag he would pledge to would be italy. All i said was that if Italy was so great why didnt his parents stay there?

Probaly cause AMerica has given them a different and better opportunity than italy could

That has nothing to do with the issue.

It's brainwashing whether or not you're an immigrant.

WickedJeremy

Blanche wrote:

I was taught the pledge of allegiance in kindergarten and recited it diligently until the 6th grade when I realised I never really listened to the words and it was absurd to pledge allegiance to a country of which I wasn't a citizen.

Until then, I had never questioned the words. And that's the problem. As little kids, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner, but not their meaning. We are conditioned to think of the US as the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, the Land of Opportunity and purple waves of grain.

(By the way, when I went to Catholic school, we didn't recite the pledge of allegiance at all, but we did have to say an occasional prayer.
The nuns handed me a few dittos and said, "Here are the prayers we recite."
And I thought, "Here we go again...")

Catholics. AH, yes, the other human cancer. Doesn't the Bible say not to be saying the same prayers over and over? Doesn't it also say specifically NOT to call a leader "Father". Catholics make a sick mockery of the Bible. Makes me laugh really. Pisses me off, but makes me laugh.

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

Really? I never had a teacher complain when I refused to say the pledge.

I've been not-saying it in my last 4 home room classes and 2 out of the 4 complained. My teacher this year I have a feeling would try threaten to knock my grade down if I wasn't a senior and too old to pull that crap on

farfromglorified

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I've been not-saying it in my last 4 home room classes and 2 out of the 4 complained.

Then I think the most natural response is to learn to speak the pledge backwards and join in

WickedJeremy

farfromglorified wrote:

They're not. Why do you assume that schools asking children to say the pledge of allegiance equates with "expecting them to follow those traditions blindly"?

Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.

It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means. And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd. You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning. Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.

Pearl Jam and toast

I wasn't trying to argue any kind of political jarble about making them stop saying the pledge or anything (argue that if you wish, it's not like it's off topic in this thread)..

I was just saying that kind of practice is the sort of thing we use to help define a "cult".

Funny someone mentioned prayer, i was going to compare this to prayer but didn't want to be the one to bring religion into the thread cuz we know where all of those lead...

It has nothing to do with not loving the country and not believing what the pledge says even. The issue is that I think it's a twisted way to mindfuck this nationalist sense into kids. Walk into a classroom anywhere in America early in the morning.. When the announcements say "Stand and join me for the pledge of allegiance" everyone in the class simulatneously stands and chants the same words they've said every school day their entire lives. They're programmed to do it. You may see it as inspiring, but it creeps me the fuck out.

Pearl Jam and toast

farfromglorified wrote:

Then I think the most natural response is to learn to speak the pledge backwards and join in

I was thinking about trying it in spanish but your idea sounds like more fun