Well its pretty easy- If you want to pledge allegiance to only italy why dont you just live in italy? Honestly if Italy is so great than stay there.
It is attitudes like yours that fucks everything up. Aren't you listening? Like you'd pledge allegience to another country! Miller didn't say a word either way on how great Italy is.
Well, I don't know the circumstances of his situation but just because he feels that Italy is the best country, his parents obviously didn't. Obviously, he can't make the sort of decision that would enable him to stay in Italy. But I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to fight you, just showing both sides.
Why can't BOTH places be great?
What is wrong with a person when they swear off reason and blindly follow the religion of patriotism? Patriotism is the cancer of the human race. That and stupidity.
Oh and sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person ealier or something.
I was taught the pledge of allegiance in kindergarten and recited it diligently until the 6th grade when I realised I never really listened to the words and it was absurd to pledge allegiance to a country of which I wasn't a citizen.
Until then, I had never questioned the words. And that's the problem. As little kids, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner, but not their meaning. We are conditioned to think of the US as the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, the Land of Opportunity and purple waves of grain.
(By the way, when I went to Catholic school, we didn't recite the pledge of allegiance at all, but we did have to say an occasional prayer.
The nuns handed me a few dittos and said, "Here are the prayers we recite."
And I thought, "Here we go again...")
Catholics. AH, yes, the other human cancer. Doesn't the Bible say not to be saying the same prayers over and over? Doesn't it also say specifically NOT to call a leader "Father". Catholics make a sick mockery of the Bible. Makes me laugh really. Pisses me off, but makes me laugh.
Really? I never had a teacher complain when I refused to say the pledge.
I've been not-saying it in my last 4 home room classes and 2 out of the 4 complained. My teacher this year I have a feeling would try threaten to knock my grade down if I wasn't a senior and too old to pull that crap on
They're not. Why do you assume that schools asking children to say the pledge of allegiance equates with "expecting them to follow those traditions blindly"?
Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.
It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means. And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd. You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning. Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.
I wasn't trying to argue any kind of political jarble about making them stop saying the pledge or anything (argue that if you wish, it's not like it's off topic in this thread)..
I was just saying that kind of practice is the sort of thing we use to help define a "cult".
Funny someone mentioned prayer, i was going to compare this to prayer but didn't want to be the one to bring religion into the thread cuz we know where all of those lead...
It has nothing to do with not loving the country and not believing what the pledge says even. The issue is that I think it's a twisted way to mindfuck this nationalist sense into kids. Walk into a classroom anywhere in America early in the morning.. When the announcements say "Stand and join me for the pledge of allegiance" everyone in the class simulatneously stands and chants the same words they've said every school day their entire lives. They're programmed to do it. You may see it as inspiring, but it creeps me the fuck out.
Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.
It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means. And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd. You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning. Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.
Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.
:rolleyes:
Of all the "blind religions", patriotism is the least harmful. Patriotism is the only religion that, by default at least, doesn't ask you to abandon your self interest.
It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means.
Then refuse. Hold as a standard the fact that you don't follow anything blindly. Demand answers, if you feel you must. But until I hear of kids being punished en masse for such behavior, I'm not going to consider it much of an issue.
And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd.
Odd since it worked for you, and for me (before we were even adults, perhaps).
You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning.
Do you not realize you're asking for the same thing, just with a different goal?
Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.
No. Patriotism can be faith-based. It doesn't, however, have to be.
Something becomes "religious" when it requires faith and institution. Systems of false pride in which society bends over backwards to accomodate the individuality of someone too afraid to suffer the consequences of their behavior are as much as a religion as systems of patriotism.
Odd since it worked for you, and for me (before we were even adults, perhaps).
Do you not realize you're asking for the same thing, just with a different goal?
I'm not asking for the same thing at all. If you mean conformity, yeah, I want everyone to conform to the idea that they have their head's in their asses and let everyone else be.
By the way, it isn't odd at all. I've never uttered the pledge in my life and pround of it. I was lucky to have parents with a vision and opened my eyes early. It didn't take me long to understand how right they were. I am happy and free today in more ways than America could ever promise.
I'm not saying fuck America, I just saying what's so special about it that you should PLEDGE YOUR VERY LIFE TO IT!?
Wow. This post says so much. I agree with everything there, but I see it completely differently.
Did it ever occur to you to ask why so many children fit the mold you describe above?
Did it occur to you that I have asked myself that question many times? Or do you think you have the market cornered on such thoughts? As I have already stated, children are taught to obey and follow not think for themselves and question. The parents were raised this way and they pass it on to their children and the schools enforce it. I would hope schools would be a place for children to escape the stagnant ways of poorer parenting...but no. Children are taught early on they will be punished for stepping out of line and speaking out of turn.
The answer to the my above question lies in the ideology of your above statement.
I suppose we should take babies from bad parents at birth so we can break this cycle. I know my mother told me to always obey my teachers and for that matter, she beat my ass and constantly yelled at me when I disobeyed. And I know it wasn't just me who had this problem.
They do. They still teach children American history and nationalism in school, don't they?
not early on, in kindergarten and in elementary school, we were taught certain dates and events but not too much on concepts and processing information and thoughts. Children are taught to memorize not think and are hardly ever encouraged to question.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Patriotism (more specifically nationalism) is one of the most harmful things man has ever conjured up. I think the relation to religion is fair. People kill and die for both, many times without so much as questioning why. Also, both of those things make people do crazy things (or at least support crazy things.. like wars.. whether or not nationalism/relgion is the actual cause of these wars is up for debate depending on what exactly you're talking about).
Edit: I think we can say that when patriotism goes into that 'religious' state it becomes nationalism
You said "Odd it worked for you and me" about just simply refusing to say the pledge. I've been the only person in my classes (except my AP history class with its share of skeptical bright kids) to refuse to say the pledge. Most people say it the entire time they're in school... Maybe it's not going to school anymore and saying it every morning that breaks the habit. People grow up you know?
I'm not asking for the same thing at all. If you mean conformity, yeah, I want everyone to conform to the idea that they have their head's in their asses and let everyone else be.
You're asking everyone else to conform to your idea of right and wrong. If conformity is your enemy, demand the right of every individual to choose their actions and accept the consequences accordingly.
By the way, it isn't odd at all. I've never uttered the pledge in my life and pround of it. I was lucky to have parents with a vision and opened my eyes early. It didn't take me long to understand how right they were. I am happy and free today in more ways than America could ever promise.
Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?
I'm not saying fuck America, I just saying what's so special about it that you should PLEDGE YOUR VERY LIFE TO IT!?
You can say fuck America as much as you'd like. And the freedom to do so is the same freedom that allows someone to say God Bless America as much as they'd like.
The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself.
You can say fuck America as much as you'd like. And the freedom to do so is the same freedom that allows someone to say God Bless America as much as they'd like.
The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself.
That's not really where I tried to take this thread (though I don't think anyone can disagree with what you said there - nor do I think that's what wickedjeremy was trying to disprove really).
The topic is that we're programming our kids to say this pledge before they know they can just not say it. I wouldn't say it's nessecarily a bad thing (although the under god thing can come into question - AND PLEASE DONT ARGUE ABOUT THIS, THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE), but it's definetly brainwashing and very very creepy.
Patriotism (more specifically nationalism) is one of the most harmful things man has ever conjured up. I think the relation to religion is fair. People kill and die for both, many times without so much as questioning why. Also, both of those things make people do crazy things (or at least support crazy things.. like wars.. whether or not nationalism/relgion is the actual cause of these wars is up for debate depending on what exactly you're talking about).
Ok. I don't disagree that patriotism or nationalism can't be related to religion. But to pretend that the relation is an absolute is silly.
Religion requires faith. Patriotism and nationalism, while often defined by faith, do not require it.
You said "Odd it worked for you and me" about just simply refusing to say the pledge. I've been the only person in my classes (except my AP history class with its share of skeptical bright kids) to refuse to say the pledge. Most people say it the entire time they're in school...
So? Should they not have that choice?
Maybe it's not going to school anymore and saying it every morning that breaks the habit. People grow up you know?
They sure do. Reciting a pledge isn't necessarily awful. You speak of it as if it's an infectious evil. Most kids don't give it a second thought, perhaps for good reason, sometimes without. Some wholeheartedly believe it, perhaps without reason, sometimes with. Others completely reject it, sometimes without reason, sometimes with.
It's a bunch of words. Can it be misused and can it contribute to stupidity? Sure! But that doesn't make it any different than anything done within the halls of school rooms.
That's not really where I tried to take this thread (though I don't think anyone can disagree with what you said there - nor do I think that's what wickedjeremy was trying to disprove really).
The topic is that we're programming our kids to say this pledge before they know they can just not say it. I wouldn't say it's nessecarily a bad thing (although the under god thing can come into question - AND PLEASE DONT ARGUE ABOUT THIS, THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE), but it's definetly brainwashing and very very creepy.
Then don't respond with opposite brainwashing. Provide the freedom for choice and respect the choices people make.
The world can't provide an asterisk for every nugget of stupidity out there, nor does anyone have the obligation to change a behavior that is not forced upon you.
Don't tell me what I believed, particularly since you can't tell me what I was told.
No one ever told me that Chris Columbus was a hero, nor did I ever believe it.
oh cmonnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
That's the first thing you've said here that I just can't believe a bit of.
When you were in first grade decorating for Thanksgiving and the teacher said "Columbus sailed the ocean blue, the pilgrims made friends with the indians and everyone had a feast" Columbus was in your 'good guy' category.
Every single person taught in America went through that.
"""You're asking everyone else to conform to your idea of right and wrong. If conformity is your enemy, demand the right of every individual to choose their actions and accept the consequences accordingly."""
You are speaking paradoxically. How can I respond?
"""Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?"""
What?!
"""You can say fuck America as much as you'd like."""
You aren't even listening.
"""The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself."""
I see many paths my friend. I don't fall in many holes. You are trying to dig holes in front of me. Maybe you don't believe yourself and are just trying to have a good time, but your philosophy falls into itself almost childlike.
reading through the rest of this thread there's a commonality. "the teachers never told us we didn't have to say it, the teachers never told us what it was we were reciting." where the fuck were your parents? i can't remember what grade i was in (way too long ago), but i do remember asking my mom what the pledge of allegiance meant and she told me. through my 12 years of schooling, i never witnessed a teacher reprimand someone for not standing and reciting the pledge. not that there were constantly people not participating, but there were some sprinkled in through junior high and high school. i'm sick and tired of some of the posts around here. "oh, it's brainwashing, they're controlling you." oh, fuck off. it's not a cult, it's not brainwashing, it's a fucking poem. get a grip. if you don't like it, don't say it. if you have kids and don't want them to say it, tell them not to (which, incidentally, is the same damn thing some are complaining about...telling children to do something when they should be making up their own mind.)
what's wrong with a little pride in your country?
"PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
~Michael Bolton
Then don't respond with opposite brainwashing. Provide the freedom for choice and respect the choices people make.
The world can't provide an asterisk for every nugget of stupidity out there, nor does anyone have the obligation to change a behavior that is not forced upon you.
Opposite brainwashing?
Stopping a brainwashing process is not "opposite brainwashing" it's stopping the process. Kids that age don't question it when their teachers tell them to recite the pledge, they just do it. True freedom would be to keep it out of our schools (that doesn't mean ban it, that means stop saying it every morning like we've been talking about - don't put words in my mouth here )
Comments
It is attitudes like yours that fucks everything up. Aren't you listening? Like you'd pledge allegience to another country! Miller didn't say a word either way on how great Italy is.
I agree.
Why can't BOTH places be great?
What is wrong with a person when they swear off reason and blindly follow the religion of patriotism? Patriotism is the cancer of the human race. That and stupidity.
Oh and sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person ealier or something.
It's brainwashing whether or not you're an immigrant.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Catholics. AH, yes, the other human cancer. Doesn't the Bible say not to be saying the same prayers over and over? Doesn't it also say specifically NOT to call a leader "Father". Catholics make a sick mockery of the Bible. Makes me laugh really. Pisses me off, but makes me laugh.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Then I think the most natural response is to learn to speak the pledge backwards and join in
Some of you are very naive. Half of these posts fall into logical fallicy, especially those who seem to be following the nation into it's downward spiral of a blind religion such as Patriotism.
It does equate, they are expected to follow it blindly becasue they are never told what it means. And saying that it is okay and they will figure out when they are adults is absurd. You have no concept of how deep nationality sets its roots. Conformity. Conditioning. Patriotism is a religion any which way you paint it.
I was just saying that kind of practice is the sort of thing we use to help define a "cult".
Funny someone mentioned prayer, i was going to compare this to prayer but didn't want to be the one to bring religion into the thread cuz we know where all of those lead...
It has nothing to do with not loving the country and not believing what the pledge says even. The issue is that I think it's a twisted way to mindfuck this nationalist sense into kids. Walk into a classroom anywhere in America early in the morning.. When the announcements say "Stand and join me for the pledge of allegiance" everyone in the class simulatneously stands and chants the same words they've said every school day their entire lives. They're programmed to do it. You may see it as inspiring, but it creeps me the fuck out.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
I'm gonna quote that line for the rest of my life!
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
:rolleyes:
Of all the "blind religions", patriotism is the least harmful. Patriotism is the only religion that, by default at least, doesn't ask you to abandon your self interest.
Then refuse. Hold as a standard the fact that you don't follow anything blindly. Demand answers, if you feel you must. But until I hear of kids being punished en masse for such behavior, I'm not going to consider it much of an issue.
Odd since it worked for you, and for me (before we were even adults, perhaps).
Do you not realize you're asking for the same thing, just with a different goal?
No. Patriotism can be faith-based. It doesn't, however, have to be.
Something becomes "religious" when it requires faith and institution. Systems of false pride in which society bends over backwards to accomodate the individuality of someone too afraid to suffer the consequences of their behavior are as much as a religion as systems of patriotism.
I'm not asking for the same thing at all. If you mean conformity, yeah, I want everyone to conform to the idea that they have their head's in their asses and let everyone else be.
By the way, it isn't odd at all. I've never uttered the pledge in my life and pround of it. I was lucky to have parents with a vision and opened my eyes early. It didn't take me long to understand how right they were. I am happy and free today in more ways than America could ever promise.
I'm not saying fuck America, I just saying what's so special about it that you should PLEDGE YOUR VERY LIFE TO IT!?
Did it occur to you that I have asked myself that question many times? Or do you think you have the market cornered on such thoughts? As I have already stated, children are taught to obey and follow not think for themselves and question. The parents were raised this way and they pass it on to their children and the schools enforce it. I would hope schools would be a place for children to escape the stagnant ways of poorer parenting...but no. Children are taught early on they will be punished for stepping out of line and speaking out of turn.
I suppose we should take babies from bad parents at birth so we can break this cycle. I know my mother told me to always obey my teachers and for that matter, she beat my ass and constantly yelled at me when I disobeyed. And I know it wasn't just me who had this problem.
not early on, in kindergarten and in elementary school, we were taught certain dates and events but not too much on concepts and processing information and thoughts. Children are taught to memorize not think and are hardly ever encouraged to question.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Patriotism (more specifically nationalism) is one of the most harmful things man has ever conjured up. I think the relation to religion is fair. People kill and die for both, many times without so much as questioning why. Also, both of those things make people do crazy things (or at least support crazy things.. like wars.. whether or not nationalism/relgion is the actual cause of these wars is up for debate depending on what exactly you're talking about).
Edit: I think we can say that when patriotism goes into that 'religious' state it becomes nationalism
You said "Odd it worked for you and me" about just simply refusing to say the pledge. I've been the only person in my classes (except my AP history class with its share of skeptical bright kids) to refuse to say the pledge. Most people say it the entire time they're in school... Maybe it's not going to school anymore and saying it every morning that breaks the habit. People grow up you know?
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Yeah, at an early age I was taught that a murderous bastard named Christopher Columbus was a hero.
You're asking everyone else to conform to your idea of right and wrong. If conformity is your enemy, demand the right of every individual to choose their actions and accept the consequences accordingly.
Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?
You can say fuck America as much as you'd like. And the freedom to do so is the same freedom that allows someone to say God Bless America as much as they'd like.
The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself.
welcome to the moving train....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Ok. And did you believe that?
The topic is that we're programming our kids to say this pledge before they know they can just not say it. I wouldn't say it's nessecarily a bad thing (although the under god thing can come into question - AND PLEASE DONT ARGUE ABOUT THIS, THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE), but it's definetly brainwashing and very very creepy.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Ok. I don't disagree that patriotism or nationalism can't be related to religion. But to pretend that the relation is an absolute is silly.
Religion requires faith. Patriotism and nationalism, while often defined by faith, do not require it.
So? Should they not have that choice?
They sure do. Reciting a pledge isn't necessarily awful. You speak of it as if it's an infectious evil. Most kids don't give it a second thought, perhaps for good reason, sometimes without. Some wholeheartedly believe it, perhaps without reason, sometimes with. Others completely reject it, sometimes without reason, sometimes with.
It's a bunch of words. Can it be misused and can it contribute to stupidity? Sure! But that doesn't make it any different than anything done within the halls of school rooms.
the pit is moving a bit slow tonight isn't it?
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Then don't respond with opposite brainwashing. Provide the freedom for choice and respect the choices people make.
The world can't provide an asterisk for every nugget of stupidity out there, nor does anyone have the obligation to change a behavior that is not forced upon you.
Don't tell me what I believed, particularly since you can't tell me what I was told.
No one ever told me that Chris Columbus was a hero, nor did I ever believe it.
That's the first thing you've said here that I just can't believe a bit of.
When you were in first grade decorating for Thanksgiving and the teacher said "Columbus sailed the ocean blue, the pilgrims made friends with the indians and everyone had a feast" Columbus was in your 'good guy' category.
Every single person taught in America went through that.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
You are speaking paradoxically. How can I respond?
"""Good for you. Now why pretend that others can't do the same?"""
What?!
"""You can say fuck America as much as you'd like."""
You aren't even listening.
"""The ideal nation in one that respects the individuals that comprise it as equal entities responsible for their lives and their will. At that point, the nation extends naturally from the individual. At that point ,I'd pledge my life to my country for the same reason I'd pledge my life to myself."""
I see many paths my friend. I don't fall in many holes. You are trying to dig holes in front of me. Maybe you don't believe yourself and are just trying to have a good time, but your philosophy falls into itself almost childlike.
G'night
what's wrong with a little pride in your country?
~Michael Bolton
Stopping a brainwashing process is not "opposite brainwashing" it's stopping the process. Kids that age don't question it when their teachers tell them to recite the pledge, they just do it. True freedom would be to keep it out of our schools (that doesn't mean ban it, that means stop saying it every morning like we've been talking about - don't put words in my mouth here
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"