It is attitudes like yours that fucks everything up. Aren't you listening? Like you'd pledge allegience to another country! Miller didn't say a word either way on how great Italy is.
If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.
If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.
Subjugating yourself to someone else's customs is called respect? It's certianly not self-respect.
If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.
I'll be sure to meet you in Chinatown to reek some havoc, then we can take it to Italian town, Jewish town, Arab town, Irish town. How dare they speak in their native tongues and want to keep their customs while living in the States. They should all conform.
You say "they should stress that the pledge is optional". Why? Should teachers stress to children that thinking or breathing is optional? Are children so pathetic that they must be instructed by an institution on their basic functions as human beings?
Children feel they will get in trouble for not saying it. They are taught to do what the teacher says. Go ahead and ignore this all you want. Children don't automatically pop out knowing to question these things and if they do, they are often raised not to question authority like I was. Too bad they weren't all born as wonderfully gifted and bright as you. But the reality is hardly any children don't say it and it's ridiculous to think they all want to. There is no reason why stressing the option of saying it or not would be bad or cause any problems. What would it hurt? How could it be a bad thing to say 'Stand for the pledge class, if you wish to.' And why should children recite something that hasn't been explained to them? It's like programing robots...here say this, it doens't matter if you know what you're saying, just do it because....Of course children don't need to be told to breathe or other basic functions, that's not the point. That's your way of avoiding the point.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Children feel they will get in trouble for not saying it. They are taught to do what the teacher says. Go ahead and ignore this all you want. Children don't automatically pop out knowing to question these things and if they do, they are often raised not to question authority like I was. Too bad they weren't all born as wonderfully gifted and bright as you. But the reality is hardly any children don't say it and it's ridiculous to think they all want to. There is no reason why stressing the option of saying it or not would be bad or cause any problems. What would it hurt? How could it be a bad thing to say 'Stand for the pledge class, if you wish to.' And why should children recite something that hasn't been explained to them? It's like programing robots...here say this, it doens't matter if you know what you're saying, just do it because....Of course children don't need to be told to breathe or other basic functions, that's not the point. That's your way of avoiding the point.
I didn't say it was easy. It isn't easy. It shouldn't be easy. How do we expect a child to learn to question things when his or her whole life is dictated by a string of permissions and equivocations?
It would not be a bad thing to say "stand for the pledge class, if you wish to". If that's all you want, I have no problem with it as long as it isn't forced upon school administrators.
It's not "avoiding the point" to suggest that a child need not be told that he or she may dissent. That is the point. In situations where no one is being forced, everything comes down to an individual choice. Leaving issues like speech up to individual choice is the primary principle this nation was founded upon. And children need to learn the power of their choice, rather than leaving that choice up to others.
EDIT: I'll readdress your first point here since you seem to not understand that my responses are aimed directly at that. I don't care if a child feels that they'll get in trouble for saying or not saying the pledge. I care if a child does get in trouble for such acts. A child's feelings belong to that child. If you are afraid to dissent when there is no institutional reprecussions for such dessent, that is your problem, not the institution's. I will not support any system, particularly an education system, that builds itself around failures as opposed to successes.
I didn't say it was easy. It isn't easy. It shouldn't be easy. How do we expect a child to learn to question things when his or her whole life is dictated by a string of permissions and equivocations?
It would not be a bad thing to say "stand for the pledge class, if you wish to". If that's all you want, I have no problem with it as long as it isn't forced upon school administrators.
It's not "avoiding the point" to suggest that a child need not be told that he or she may dissent. That is the point. In situations where no one is being forced, everything comes down to an individual choice. Leaving issues like speech up to individual choice is the primary principle this nation was founded upon. And children need to learn the power of their choice, rather than leaving that choice up to others.
For the last time, they don't know it's a choice. And they don't want to be punished for it. Kids get punished in school all the time for doing what they wanted or thought was right.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I see no evidence that that's the case. I never spoke the pledge. Many others here have said the same. Were we told that it was a choice? Not in my case, at least. I've known that my voice is entirely dependent on my choices and have been willing to answer for that voice. I learned that by recognizing my ownership of those choices and by seeing their reprecussions, both good and bad.
My experience is just mine. Is it everyone's? No. But again I don't see any evidence that suggests children are being forced to say this on a broad scale. The instances were children are punished should certainly stop immediately.
And they don't want to be punished for it.
Nor should they be.
Kids get punished in school all the time for doing what they wanted or thought was right.
Yes they do (and rewarded as well). Goes to show that they do have some understanding that they have choices in life. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to not do their homework. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to get in fights. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to be studious and excel.
Children are not mindless fools that need us to tell them what they can or can't do. Children have young minds that need us to advise them on what they should or shouldn't do in order to achieve their chosen goals. Children need us to cultivate environments of choice and provide the tools necessary to make good choices.
Again, if all you want is for teachers to tell kids "it's pledge time, you may participate if you'd like" I'm fine with that. I'm just not sure a) how big a deal such a thing is or b) how necessary such a thing is. Most kids would have a very good laugh over the fuss.
I see no evidence that that's the case. I never spoke the pledge. Many others here have said the same. Were we told that it was a choice? Not in my case, at least. I've known that my voice is entirely dependent on my choices and have been willing to answer for that voice. I learned that by recognizing my ownership of those choices and by seeing their reprecussions, both good and bad.
My experience is just mine. Is it everyone's? No. But again I don't see any evidence that suggests children are being forced to say this on a broad scale. The instances were children are punished should certainly stop immediately.
Nor should they be.
Yes they do (and rewarded as well). Goes to show that they do have some understanding that they have choices in life. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to not do their homework. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to get in fights. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to be studious and excel.
Children are not mindless fools that need us to tell them what they can or can't do. Children have young minds that need us to advise them on what they should or shouldn't do in order to achieve their chosen goals. Children need us to cultivate environments of choice and provide the tools necessary to make good choices.
Again, if all you want is for teachers to tell kids "it's pledge time, you may participate if you'd like" I'm fine with that. I'm just not sure a) how big a deal such a thing is or b) how necessary such a thing is. Most kids would have a very good laugh over the fuss.
Children often choose not to do things or follow their own urges due to punishment. That doesn't make them fools. They are taught early on to obey, especially children brought up in religious households... you weren't and that's great but you are not the norm.
I don't think they would laugh about it. Most would probably be glad to know that people out there care enough to stand up for the child's own choices. There is nothing wrong with promoting awareness. It's completely illogical to want children to recite something when they don't understand it. Why would a person say something if they don't mean it? How can they mean it if they don't fully understand it? It teaches them that things don't have to make sense, just be followed. How is that encouraging independent, intelligent youth? That breeds followers not leaders. They are taught to except things without reason. And yeah, it's a big deal to me
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Children often choose not to do things or follow their own urges due to punishment. That doesn't make them fools. They are taught early on to obey, especially children brought up in religious households... you weren't and that's great but you are not the norm.
Umm...I was brought up in a very religious household. Again, your statements above pretend that children are only products of the rigidity of their environments. Children can think for themselves and do it everyday.
I don't think they would laugh about it. Most would probably be glad to know that people out there care enough to stand up for the child's own choices.
I think most children, in this case, would tell you that they don't need you for their choice. They can make it on their own.
There is nothing wrong with promoting awareness. It's completely illogical to want children to recite something when they don't understand it. Why would a person say something if they don't mean it? How can they mean it if they don't fully understand it? It teaches them that things don't have to make sense, just be followed. How is that encouraging independent, intelligent youth? That breeds followers not leaders. They are taught to except things without reason. And yeah, it's a big deal to me
There are two issues in your questions. The first is the pledge itself and its content and use. On that issue I'd largely agree with you. However, the second issue is the response to the pledge. That's where we differ. You're not going to breed independent thinkers by couching everything in this world within equivocations. You're not going to breed leaders by eliminating reprecussions (both good and bad) from their choices.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Is all you want for teachers to be more open when they say "please stand and say the pledge, if you wish"? Or, in fact, are you looking for something more?
Umm...I was brought up in a very religious household. Again, your statements above pretend that children are only products of the rigidity of their environments. Children can think for themselves and do it everyday.
I think most children, in this case, would tell you that they don't need you for their choice. They can make it on their own.
There are two issues in your questions. The first is the pledge itself and its content and use. On that issue I'd largely agree with you. However, the second issue is the response to the pledge. That's where we differ. You're not going to breed independent thinkers by couching everything in this world within equivocations. You're not going to breed leaders by eliminating reprecussions (both good and bad) from their choices.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Is all you want for teachers to be more open when they say "please stand and say the pledge, if you wish"? Or, in fact, are you looking for something more?
I would like for the option to be made clear to the kids. Apparently, the dumb ones just don't know about it.
Do you think children should recite things they don't understand in a learning environment? Does that promote logical thinking?
I would like to for the option to be stressed. It isn't clear to children that they have these options. That doesn't mean they are dumb
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I would like for the option to be made clear to the kids. Apparently, the dumb ones just don't know about it.
I don't think it's an issue of smart/dumb. I think it's an issue of brave/scared.
Do you think children should recite things they don't understand in a learning environment? Does that promote logical thinking?
Depends. Children typically learn to recite the alphabet before they learn to read. They learn to count before they learn to add. But the pledge isn't about learning. The pledge is about nationalism. And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with nationalism. But just like any -ism it can be misused. If we're going to remove nationalism from schools, you best be prepared to disband the schools -- the very foundation of public education is built upon nationalism.
Reciting things can promote logical thinking. Logic is based on rules. To learn rules you have to remember them before you hope to understand them. But again, the pledge doesn't really fall into logic. At many points in US history the pledge is certainly anti-logic!
I would like to for the option to be stressed. It isn't clear to children that they have these options. That doesn't mean they are dumb
I'm not saying they're dumb. I'm saying they're smart. Kids are far smarter than you're giving them credit for here.
I don't think it's an issue of smart/dumb. I think it's an issue of brave/scared.
Depends. Children typically learn to recite the alphabet before they learn to read. They learn to count before they learn to add. But the pledge isn't about learning. The pledge is about nationalism. And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with nationalism. But just like any -ism it can be misused. If we're going to remove nationalism from schools, you best be prepared to disband the schools -- the very foundation of public education is built upon nationalism.
Reciting things can promote logical thinking. Logic is based on rules. To learn rules you have to remember them before you hope to understand them. But again, the pledge doesn't really fall into logic. At many points in US history the pledge is certainly anti-logic!
I'm not saying they're dumb. I'm saying they're smart. Kids are far smarter than you're giving them credit for here.
The fact that some children are more timid than other doesn't mean I think they aren't smart. Shyness is hereditery. And even the smartest children obey when they would rather not. I never said I didn't think the entire public education system shouldn't be reformed. It completely sucks and when things aren't working, it's time for change. And it is in some areas. Our local schools here offer montessori along with traditional programs. The parents choose and it's still free.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The fact that some children are more timid than other doesn't mean I think they aren't smart.
I'm not accusing you of that. I'm saying that children already understand that they have choices to go against the group.
Shyness is hereditery.
So?
And even the smartest children obey when they would rather not.
Of course.
I never said I didn't think the entire public education system shouldn't be reformed. It completely sucks and when things aren't working, it's time for change. And it is in some areas. Our local schools here offer montessori along with traditional programs. The parents choose and it's still free.
I doubt it's "free". They're paying for it or someone else is. But I'm glad to hear that there are more choices in your area.
In regards to the pledge, I don't see it as "not working". I see it as working. If you want teachers to be a bit more specific about the options, so be it. I can get on board with that. If you want schools to never punish kids for a choice either way on the matter, I can get on board with that too.
However, if you or others here want teachers forced to describe every mundane option a child has or if you want the pledge banned, I'm a little too attached to my free speech to get on board with that.
Fostering a sense of community and that you are a part of a greater thing that has both obligations and responsibilities should not be a "if you wish to" thing in school or life.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Fostering a sense of community and that you are a part of a greater thing that has both obligations and responsibilities should not be a "if you wish to" thing in school or life.
so you don't think they should have the choice?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not accusing you of that. I'm saying that children already understand that they have choices to go against the group.
So?
Of course.
I doubt it's "free". They're paying for it or someone else is. But I'm glad to hear that there are more choices in your area.
In regards to the pledge, I don't see it as "not working". I see it as working. If you want teachers to be a bit more specific about the options, so be it. I can get on board with that. If you want schools to never punish kids for a choice either way on the matter, I can get on board with that too.
However, if you or others here want teachers forced to describe every mundane option a child has or if you want the pledge banned, I'm a little too attached to my free speech to get on board with that.
They tell them they have options of what to eat for lunch everyday. Telling them about the option of the pledge doesn't seem like too much to me.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Fostering a sense of community and that you are a part of a greater thing that has both obligations and responsibilities should not be a "if you wish to" thing in school or life.
I'll take concomittant freedoms as a fosterer of community before the forced recitation of the pledge of allegiance anyday.
I'll be sure to meet you in Chinatown to reek some havoc, then we can take it to Italian town, Jewish town, Arab town, Irish town. How dare they speak in their native tongues and want to keep their customs while living in the States. They should all conform.
they can keep their customs..but americas customs come first.
There are enough people here who make points with which I agree, so for me to defend my statements would be redundant.
Let me say this:
We were taught about freedom of choice, yet we didn't know we had a choice in the classroom, for example, to recite the pledge or not.
When you hear during assembly or morning announcements, "Let's all stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance," noone added, "But those of you who don't agree with or who don't understand the pledge are welcome to remain seated or stand silent."
The day I stopped reciting it, noone gave me trouble about it as long as I respected the others' right to recite.
Nonetheless, I still think it is wrong and absurd to indoctrinate kids, because that's what they're doing, with the pledge, the patriotic songs, and the history lessons that leave out certain details (like where Christopher Columbus really landed).
And I won't go into the questions of national identity that might be raised because of all this.
When you hear during assembly or morning announcements, "Let's all stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance," noone added, "But those of you who don't agree with or who don't understand the pledge are welcome to remain seated or stand silent."
So you not only want freedom of choice ,you want to force people to point out to you places where you can use your freedoms. You can't see it but I'm left shaking my head at this.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
So you not only want freedom of choice ,you want to force people to point out to you places where you can use your freedoms. You can't see it but I'm left shaking my head at this.
At school there are rules to follow what the teacher says. Ask for permission to speak and such. How can you use freedoms you aren't educated on?
It's like saying 'It was always there.Iit was posted in the cellar fifty years ago.' To that I'm shaking my head. Why tell children about anything at school then?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And freedom works the same way. Just like breath, you can beat it out of a person. But until that point, they'll do it by default.
if only we were born with all the knowledge we would ever need.
The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.
The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.
Principles such as respect are instilled by parents. Only after many years of reeducating oneself does one realize respect is earned and it shouldn't override one's own personal freedom. So feeling as if it is against the teacher's rules to not stand and fear of punishment where there shouldn't be any are big factors in the decision to stand.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And freedom works the same way. Just like breath, you can beat it out of a person. But until that point, they'll do it by default.
Oh, but you can! It's even easier if you start early.
A human body will breathe when able. Barring monks with decades of practice behind them, people can only control their breathing within a very slim margin. If there is air available, your body is going to get it. The same cannot be said for liberty. It's quite possible to beat freedom out of most small children. I've certainly seen it happen more than a few times.
The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.
At the age of 6 or 7, it doesn't extend from "an individual's principles." Some kids are more outgoing than others. Some are bolder than others. Some kids will be punished if the teacher calls home to complain about their behavior, others will not.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that early elementary-aged children have well thought out principles? I'm not saying that there aren't kids who will question what they are told. I, like you, was one of those children. But I also remember the wide-eyed stares from my classmates. It had never occurred to them that NOT doing what the teacher said was an option. We are the exceptions, not the rule, and how we treat small children should certainly not be based on our experience.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
If i went and LIVED in another country then sure id say their pledge..hell im living there i should abide by their customs. Its called respect..if i didnt like it i should be made to leave.
Subjugating yourself to someone else's customs is called respect? It's certianly not self-respect.
I'll be sure to meet you in Chinatown to reek some havoc, then we can take it to Italian town, Jewish town, Arab town, Irish town. How dare they speak in their native tongues and want to keep their customs while living in the States. They should all conform.
Children feel they will get in trouble for not saying it. They are taught to do what the teacher says. Go ahead and ignore this all you want. Children don't automatically pop out knowing to question these things and if they do, they are often raised not to question authority like I was. Too bad they weren't all born as wonderfully gifted and bright as you. But the reality is hardly any children don't say it and it's ridiculous to think they all want to. There is no reason why stressing the option of saying it or not would be bad or cause any problems. What would it hurt? How could it be a bad thing to say 'Stand for the pledge class, if you wish to.' And why should children recite something that hasn't been explained to them? It's like programing robots...here say this, it doens't matter if you know what you're saying, just do it because....Of course children don't need to be told to breathe or other basic functions, that's not the point. That's your way of avoiding the point.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I didn't say it was easy. It isn't easy. It shouldn't be easy. How do we expect a child to learn to question things when his or her whole life is dictated by a string of permissions and equivocations?
It would not be a bad thing to say "stand for the pledge class, if you wish to". If that's all you want, I have no problem with it as long as it isn't forced upon school administrators.
It's not "avoiding the point" to suggest that a child need not be told that he or she may dissent. That is the point. In situations where no one is being forced, everything comes down to an individual choice. Leaving issues like speech up to individual choice is the primary principle this nation was founded upon. And children need to learn the power of their choice, rather than leaving that choice up to others.
EDIT: I'll readdress your first point here since you seem to not understand that my responses are aimed directly at that. I don't care if a child feels that they'll get in trouble for saying or not saying the pledge. I care if a child does get in trouble for such acts. A child's feelings belong to that child. If you are afraid to dissent when there is no institutional reprecussions for such dessent, that is your problem, not the institution's. I will not support any system, particularly an education system, that builds itself around failures as opposed to successes.
For the last time, they don't know it's a choice. And they don't want to be punished for it. Kids get punished in school all the time for doing what they wanted or thought was right.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I see no evidence that that's the case. I never spoke the pledge. Many others here have said the same. Were we told that it was a choice? Not in my case, at least. I've known that my voice is entirely dependent on my choices and have been willing to answer for that voice. I learned that by recognizing my ownership of those choices and by seeing their reprecussions, both good and bad.
My experience is just mine. Is it everyone's? No. But again I don't see any evidence that suggests children are being forced to say this on a broad scale. The instances were children are punished should certainly stop immediately.
Nor should they be.
Yes they do (and rewarded as well). Goes to show that they do have some understanding that they have choices in life. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to not do their homework. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to get in fights. No one had to inform a child that he or she has the option to be studious and excel.
Children are not mindless fools that need us to tell them what they can or can't do. Children have young minds that need us to advise them on what they should or shouldn't do in order to achieve their chosen goals. Children need us to cultivate environments of choice and provide the tools necessary to make good choices.
Again, if all you want is for teachers to tell kids "it's pledge time, you may participate if you'd like" I'm fine with that. I'm just not sure a) how big a deal such a thing is or b) how necessary such a thing is. Most kids would have a very good laugh over the fuss.
Children often choose not to do things or follow their own urges due to punishment. That doesn't make them fools. They are taught early on to obey, especially children brought up in religious households... you weren't and that's great but you are not the norm.
I don't think they would laugh about it. Most would probably be glad to know that people out there care enough to stand up for the child's own choices. There is nothing wrong with promoting awareness. It's completely illogical to want children to recite something when they don't understand it. Why would a person say something if they don't mean it? How can they mean it if they don't fully understand it? It teaches them that things don't have to make sense, just be followed. How is that encouraging independent, intelligent youth? That breeds followers not leaders. They are taught to except things without reason. And yeah, it's a big deal to me
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Umm...I was brought up in a very religious household. Again, your statements above pretend that children are only products of the rigidity of their environments. Children can think for themselves and do it everyday.
I think most children, in this case, would tell you that they don't need you for their choice. They can make it on their own.
There are two issues in your questions. The first is the pledge itself and its content and use. On that issue I'd largely agree with you. However, the second issue is the response to the pledge. That's where we differ. You're not going to breed independent thinkers by couching everything in this world within equivocations. You're not going to breed leaders by eliminating reprecussions (both good and bad) from their choices.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Is all you want for teachers to be more open when they say "please stand and say the pledge, if you wish"? Or, in fact, are you looking for something more?
I would like for the option to be made clear to the kids. Apparently, the dumb ones just don't know about it.
Do you think children should recite things they don't understand in a learning environment? Does that promote logical thinking?
I would like to for the option to be stressed. It isn't clear to children that they have these options. That doesn't mean they are dumb
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't think it's an issue of smart/dumb. I think it's an issue of brave/scared.
Depends. Children typically learn to recite the alphabet before they learn to read. They learn to count before they learn to add. But the pledge isn't about learning. The pledge is about nationalism. And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with nationalism. But just like any -ism it can be misused. If we're going to remove nationalism from schools, you best be prepared to disband the schools -- the very foundation of public education is built upon nationalism.
Reciting things can promote logical thinking. Logic is based on rules. To learn rules you have to remember them before you hope to understand them. But again, the pledge doesn't really fall into logic. At many points in US history the pledge is certainly anti-logic!
I'm not saying they're dumb. I'm saying they're smart. Kids are far smarter than you're giving them credit for here.
The fact that some children are more timid than other doesn't mean I think they aren't smart. Shyness is hereditery. And even the smartest children obey when they would rather not. I never said I didn't think the entire public education system shouldn't be reformed. It completely sucks and when things aren't working, it's time for change. And it is in some areas. Our local schools here offer montessori along with traditional programs. The parents choose and it's still free.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not accusing you of that. I'm saying that children already understand that they have choices to go against the group.
So?
Of course.
I doubt it's "free". They're paying for it or someone else is. But I'm glad to hear that there are more choices in your area.
In regards to the pledge, I don't see it as "not working". I see it as working. If you want teachers to be a bit more specific about the options, so be it. I can get on board with that. If you want schools to never punish kids for a choice either way on the matter, I can get on board with that too.
However, if you or others here want teachers forced to describe every mundane option a child has or if you want the pledge banned, I'm a little too attached to my free speech to get on board with that.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
so you don't think they should have the choice?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
They tell them they have options of what to eat for lunch everyday. Telling them about the option of the pledge doesn't seem like too much to me.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Yeah, but they don't tell them "you don't have to eat if you're not hungry".
It isn't too much. I've agreed with you there. What is too much is when anyone is being forced. That's the line for me.
I'll take concomittant freedoms as a fosterer of community before the forced recitation of the pledge of allegiance anyday.
they can keep their customs..but americas customs come first.
1. the pledge
2. Speak english
Is there a competition I'm unaware of?
As opposed to what?
For what reason?
Let me say this:
We were taught about freedom of choice, yet we didn't know we had a choice in the classroom, for example, to recite the pledge or not.
When you hear during assembly or morning announcements, "Let's all stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance," noone added, "But those of you who don't agree with or who don't understand the pledge are welcome to remain seated or stand silent."
The day I stopped reciting it, noone gave me trouble about it as long as I respected the others' right to recite.
Nonetheless, I still think it is wrong and absurd to indoctrinate kids, because that's what they're doing, with the pledge, the patriotic songs, and the history lessons that leave out certain details (like where Christopher Columbus really landed).
And I won't go into the questions of national identity that might be raised because of all this.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
At school there are rules to follow what the teacher says. Ask for permission to speak and such. How can you use freedoms you aren't educated on?
It's like saying 'It was always there.Iit was posted in the cellar fifty years ago.' To that I'm shaking my head. Why tell children about anything at school then?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How can you breathe if you weren't taught to breathe?
bc you do it automatically. if only we were born with all the knowledge we would ever need.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
American customs? what, should they also be stuffing their faces with burgers?
btw, most americans should return to english class themselves before they cry about other people needing to speak the language.
And freedom works the same way. Just like breath, you can beat it out of a person. But until that point, they'll do it by default.
The ability to speak or to stay silent is not knowledge. Knowing when to speak or stay silent is knowledge. And in the context of this issue, that knowledge can only extend from an individual's principles, not from the equivocation of an administrator.
because children at school....in america.....say the pledge....
un-fucking-real...............
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Principles such as respect are instilled by parents. Only after many years of reeducating oneself does one realize respect is earned and it shouldn't override one's own personal freedom. So feeling as if it is against the teacher's rules to not stand and fear of punishment where there shouldn't be any are big factors in the decision to stand.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
A human body will breathe when able. Barring monks with decades of practice behind them, people can only control their breathing within a very slim margin. If there is air available, your body is going to get it. The same cannot be said for liberty. It's quite possible to beat freedom out of most small children. I've certainly seen it happen more than a few times.
At the age of 6 or 7, it doesn't extend from "an individual's principles." Some kids are more outgoing than others. Some are bolder than others. Some kids will be punished if the teacher calls home to complain about their behavior, others will not.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that early elementary-aged children have well thought out principles? I'm not saying that there aren't kids who will question what they are told. I, like you, was one of those children. But I also remember the wide-eyed stares from my classmates. It had never occurred to them that NOT doing what the teacher said was an option. We are the exceptions, not the rule, and how we treat small children should certainly not be based on our experience.