so i'll be leaving the thread for tonight and probably for good depending on how much has gone on when I look it up again.
I'll just say the main point I wanted to make was that it creeps me out, hence the word 'strange' in the title, not that it's nessecarily detrimental to our kids or our nation. If I wanted to go there outright I would've replaced 'strange' with 'fucked up'.
I don't think it belongs in a place of learning, but I don't see a reason to take it into law or something to stop it.. that would be a waste of time, plus it would be shot down anyway.
It's managed to stay relatively well mannered so far, try to keep it that way
are you kidding? the first thing i want my child to say every morning is that she will pledge her allegiance to an inanimate object (the flag) and if, as a secondary thought, she can pledge her allegiance to a republic for which it stands, that's great too.
what im saying is most people dont say it for 12 years.....
all thru grammar school.....maybe.....
but for some reason i dont think a majority of the kids in high school are saying the pledge every day......
i may be wrong.....
You're wrong. Being the only one in any of my classes (except for that history class where there were 3 of us) to ever not say the pledge, i'll tell you that at LEAST 29/30 kids in a class are saying it, probably a much much higher number than that.
In all seriousness though, I find it humorously ironic that the pledge, so revered by American conservatives, was written by a socialist (Francis Bellamy).
You're wrong. Being the only one in any of my classes (except for that history class where there were 3 of us) to ever not say the pledge, i'll tell you that at LEAST 29/30 kids in a class are saying it, probably a much much higher number than that.
ok...you got me wrong again....hehehehehehe
what i am saying is......
i didnt even think the pledge was said in highschool......PERIOD!!!!!
at least when i went to school it wasnt......not in highschool....
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
are you kidding? the first thing i want my child to say every morning is that she will pledge her allegiance to an inanimate object (the flag) and if, as a secondary thought, she can pledge her allegiance to a republic for which it stands, that's great too.
An idol. This is surely a form of worship. How can we worship an inanimate object (regardless of what is represents to you) when it was made by your own hands? It is something inferior. A material thing can wrap you up. What is and what should never be. Everything is not enough, nothing is too much to bear. These are undiscovered points of reference. When is the strobe I am to slope from? Mountains dispell lies better left in dirty telephone booths. Find love in ways you never thought before.
I've done lit up a cigar, so ya, still not in bed.
Hangnails...seriously, I laughed outloud.
You made a great point at the end when you said to consider [the fact that I, born here in this country, didn't fall for it]. But, sadly, I'm just a face in the crowd at this point.
So? We're all faces in the crowd. Too bad we as a society now believe that the crowd is worth more than the face.
God forbid 29 people do something differently than you do. The only way they'll do otherwise is to show them the value in what you're doing, rather than trying to demonstrate the lack of value in what they're doing. No one trades a zero for a zero. Give them something of value and let them decide what it's worth.
I do ask that you read my last post again, and just consider how this practice which is occuring globally, leads to very, very bad things. Yes, it does contribute to war, greatly. Please see this and talk about it so our faces can shine out in the crowd. Ha, a human light. It's an inside job.
I see your point, you're just taking it way too far. Go ahead, eliminate the pledge. Just don't be surprised when war continues.
War extends from the belief that you have the right to force a vision of this world on someone else. That's exactly what people seem to be advocating here. As long as the pledgers of this world aren't forcing you to preach along, I'll have much more sympathy for them than I will for someone who is willing to force them to stop.
War extends from the belief that you have the right to force a vision of this world on someone else.
This is very true and there are many extensions of war. There are many reasons to fight. Sure, I know there will still be war. They'll not be a look of surprise bouncing from mine face. It's just another brick in the wall. But I did see Bart Simpson pull out the Master Log unleashing a flood of change. Boy howdy, I swear to God I did!
That's exactly what people seem to be advocating here. As long as the pledgers of this world aren't forcing you to preach along, I'll have much more sympathy for them than I will for someone who is willing to force them to stop.
I may be getting tired, but I can't compute this one. I can interpret that more than a couple of ways. I'd like to hear it restated if you care. I'm getting something out of all this myself.
That's exactly what people seem to be advocating here. As long as the pledgers of this world aren't forcing you to preach along, I'll have much more sympathy for them than I will for someone who is willing to force them to stop.
No, we haven't. I wish for the choice to do so or not do to be stressed. And if you are going to do this thing in school, at least teach the children the meaning behind it. Who said it has to be abolished?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
No, we haven't. I wish for the choice to do so or not do to be stressed. And if you are going to do this thing in school, at least teach the children the meaning behind it. Who said it has to be abolished?
I'm not saying you want it abolished. I'm saying that you want those who say the pledge to be forced to give their reasons while those who choose not to say the pledge (or choose any other alternative) need not explain themselves.
All sides must be free to choose. And all sides must suffer the consequences of their choice both positive and negative. No side owes the other anything more than the recognition and respect of that which enables the choice of all sides in the first place: individual will and freedom.
I'm not saying you want it abolished. I'm saying that you want those who say the pledge to be forced to give their reasons while those who choose not to say the pledge (or choose any other alternative) need not explain themselves.
All sides must be free to choose. And all sides must suffer the consequences of their choice both positive and negative. No side owes the other anything more than the recognition and respect of that which enables the choice of all sides in the first place: individual will and freedom.
Who said they should be forced to give the reason they choose to stand? I said they should stress that the pledge is optional, though open discourse about the pledge wouldn't be a harmful thing either.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Did anyone tell you that you had the choice to respond to my post or not? No, you figured that out on your own and chose accordingly.
Even as a young child, I didn't need anyone to tell me that I can control my voice and my body. And the very fact that we feel we need to tell people that it's ok to speak or not to speak says much about the pathetic state of our freedoms and our society.
I have no problem with them saying the pledge of allegiance in a school funded by the government as long as no child can be punished by the institution for refusing to participate. I do have a problem with those who want to absolve the child of the accountability for that choice (both positive and negative).
David Holcberg of the Ayn Rand Institute disagrees with you:
Children Should Not Recite the Pledge of Allegiance
Wednesday, March 24, 2004
By: David Holcberg
Dear Editor:
As the U.S. Supreme Court considers the constitutionality of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance recited in public schools, a deeper, more fundamental question has not even been raised: Why are young children being pressured to make a pledge they lack the knowledge to understand and the maturity to commit themselves to?
Children do not give the Pledge careful consideration and decide, daily, to pledge allegiance to their country under God with liberty and justice for all. The Pledge is a political statement and--since 1954, when "God" was added--a religious statement. The only reason children recite the Pledge is that their educators expect them to.
The purpose of education should be to teach children the knowledge and thinking skills they need to succeed in life, not to train them in parroting political and religious ideas they can't possibly grasp.
I think its fine to say. I really don't think its brainwashing anyone, expecially 5 year olds. I don't think they saw any problems with having a flag as their ally. .. My school ended it sometime during middle school and I was kind of disappointed to see it go.. Whatever. I don't think its a huge deal.
Personally, I had no idea what it really meant, so it never had an effect on me. It was always just a good way to get the blood flowing in the morning.
I'm not saying you want it abolished. I'm saying that you want those who say the pledge to be forced to give their reasons while those who choose not to say the pledge (or choose any other alternative) need not explain themselves.
All sides must be free to choose. And all sides must suffer the consequences of their choice both positive and negative. No side owes the other anything more than the recognition and respect of that which enables the choice of all sides in the first place: individual will and freedom.
This is why freedom is a myth. If we all do things our own way, this tramples on others rights. On others freedoms. Having a flag salute in school tamples freedoms. It is ironic really.
I say it tramples freedom because of my earlier point. It creates an unneeded aura of devotion to something not deserving to be set aside for reverence. It is closed minded to affiliate yourself to a single country, that's all.
FFG I think you ignored the actual argument the entire 8 pages through this debate :eek:
The argument was that they way the school operates, it takes the choice out of saying the pledge. I agree with Abook but since she's said the same thing dozens of times in the thread I don't feel the need to quote her.
FFG I think you ignored the actual argument the entire 8 pages through this debate :eek:
The argument was that they way the school operates, it takes the choice out of saying the pledge. I agree with Abook but since she's said the same thing dozens of times in the thread I don't feel the need to quote her.
Great article Kenny
I've never been in a public school that forced kids to say the pledge. One girl in my class all the way up to 5th grade would never say it, and she never got in trouble. In high school I started not standing up for it, and I was never sent to detention. A couple of my homeroom teachers were offended and sent me to the office the first times I did it, but I was always sent right back to class by our vice principal.
If you're in a public school, I really don't think they can force you to say it. They can give you that impression, but if you're afraid to do what you want, then that's your fault, not the school's.
FFG I think you ignored the actual argument the entire 8 pages through this debate :eek:
The argument was that they way the school operates, it takes the choice out of saying the pledge. I agree with Abook but since she's said the same thing dozens of times in the thread I don't feel the need to quote her.
Great article Kenny
But it doesn't take the choice out of saying the pledge. Being too afraid to be different is not the school's problem, it's the child's problem.
People have to learn to stand up to the institutions they come into contact with. The answer is not to subjegate an institution that is not doing anything fundamentally wrong but rather to simply expect people to stand up for what they believe in.
Regardless of how you slice the arguments here, you're still proposing that one party must explain itself while another must not. That's putting an obligation on one side's free speech, and that's wrong.
I'm all for "open discourse" on the pledge or anything else for that matter. But if that's code speak for some kind of forced asterisk, that defeats the "open" in open discourse.
Look, parents are responsible for shaping a child's education, be it at home or through social constructs like public education. If you put this to an "open discourse", the vast majority of people in this country would still support their child saying the pledge every morning. And as long as those people aren't forcing the ones who disagree to do the same I see absolutely no problem other than perhaps the blind patriotism that is behind the wishes of some which is no more harmful than the blind dissent that is behind the wishes of others.
I'll say it again: if children are being punished by the institution for standing up to it, then I'll agree with you guys here. Otherwise, I'll completely support the right of an institution to start it's day by reading the pledge or reciting the phone book while also supporting the right of any member of that institution to abstain.
Who said they should be forced to give the reason they choose to stand? I said they should stress that the pledge is optional, though open discourse about the pledge wouldn't be a harmful thing either.
You say "they should stress that the pledge is optional". Why? Should teachers stress to children that thinking or breathing is optional? Are children so pathetic that they must be instructed by an institution on their basic functions as human beings?
You say "they should stress that the pledge is optional". Why? Should teachers stress to children that thinking or breathing is optional? Are children so pathetic that they must be instructed by an institution on their basic functions as human beings?
I remember saying the pledge when I was in kindergarden. after that I went to a private school. I really had no idea what the words meant, maybe a little bit. I did understand that I was asked to stand, put my hand on my heart, and face the flag which was a symbol of america. I never had a problem with that. I am proud to be an American.
I really dont understand why people think its disgusting or strange or too conservative, whatever. When I have kids, I can easily explain to them what the pledge is and tell them they dont have to say it if they dont want to. If their teacher has a problem with that, they can speak to me.
I remember saying the pledge when I was in kindergarden. after that I went to a private school. I really had no idea what the words meant, maybe a little bit. I did understand that I was asked to stand, put my hand on my heart, and face the flag which was a symbol of america. I never had a problem with that. I am proud to be an American.
I really dont understand why people think its disgusting or strange or too conservative, whatever. When I have kids, I can easily explain to them what the pledge is and tell them they dont have to say it if they dont want to. If their teacher has a problem with that, they can speak to me.
What you felt or had a problem with really isn't the issue though. And certainly many children do not have parents who are going to explain the pledge to them or take responsibility for their children's education.
As a people, we must ensure that our traditions and beliefs are not forced on people. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a child who says the pledge, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a child who refuses to do so. As long as the option is there for both.....that's what matters.
While the left here makes a huge deal out of the pledge while ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people pay absolutely no heed to to the words or meanings, the right defends the pledge as if it's some kind of hallowed American tradition while ignoring the fact that it's a pretty recent development and doesn't do much to tie American's together as a people.
I would like to think it does. if not, I wish something did.
Something does tie America together (or at least can). But it ain't the pledge. It's what the pledge can stand for, particularly liberty and justice. This country has been predominantly defined throughout it's history not by its wars or its customs or its governments. As a country we have been defined by the fact that we have traditionally held liberty paramount in our society. It is that liberty that can bring the patriots and the dissenters together on the common ground of their freedoms to make their own choices.
But we're saying goodbye to those days. The time where my freedoms depended on your freedoms are coming to a close. We're approaching a new day where my freedoms depend on your subjegation. And I guess at that point it's time to toss the pledge out the window all together because it becomes a hypocrisy for all, regardless of whether they speak it or not.
We say the same pledge, every day, at the same time (in school) for at least 12 years.. everyone (well.. ideally everyone) goes to school and is trained to do this...
Ever think how bizzare and cult-like this practice is?
I wonder how well it goes over in the inner cities of America?
Comments
How many people do you remember refusing to say the pledge in school, even up to the senior year?
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
what im saying is most people dont say it for 12 years.....
all thru grammar school.....maybe.....
but for some reason i dont think a majority of the kids in high school are saying the pledge every day......
i may be wrong.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
so i'll be leaving the thread for tonight and probably for good depending on how much has gone on when I look it up again.
I'll just say the main point I wanted to make was that it creeps me out, hence the word 'strange' in the title, not that it's nessecarily detrimental to our kids or our nation. If I wanted to go there outright I would've replaced 'strange' with 'fucked up'.
I don't think it belongs in a place of learning, but I don't see a reason to take it into law or something to stop it.. that would be a waste of time, plus it would be shot down anyway.
It's managed to stay relatively well mannered so far, try to keep it that way
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
what i am saying is......
i didnt even think the pledge was said in highschool......PERIOD!!!!!
at least when i went to school it wasnt......not in highschool....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Mine, too.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
An idol. This is surely a form of worship. How can we worship an inanimate object (regardless of what is represents to you) when it was made by your own hands? It is something inferior. A material thing can wrap you up. What is and what should never be. Everything is not enough, nothing is too much to bear. These are undiscovered points of reference. When is the strobe I am to slope from? Mountains dispell lies better left in dirty telephone booths. Find love in ways you never thought before.
So? We're all faces in the crowd. Too bad we as a society now believe that the crowd is worth more than the face.
God forbid 29 people do something differently than you do. The only way they'll do otherwise is to show them the value in what you're doing, rather than trying to demonstrate the lack of value in what they're doing. No one trades a zero for a zero. Give them something of value and let them decide what it's worth.
I see your point, you're just taking it way too far. Go ahead, eliminate the pledge. Just don't be surprised when war continues.
War extends from the belief that you have the right to force a vision of this world on someone else. That's exactly what people seem to be advocating here. As long as the pledgers of this world aren't forcing you to preach along, I'll have much more sympathy for them than I will for someone who is willing to force them to stop.
This is very true and there are many extensions of war. There are many reasons to fight. Sure, I know there will still be war. They'll not be a look of surprise bouncing from mine face. It's just another brick in the wall. But I did see Bart Simpson pull out the Master Log unleashing a flood of change. Boy howdy, I swear to God I did!
I may be getting tired, but I can't compute this one. I can interpret that more than a couple of ways. I'd like to hear it restated if you care. I'm getting something out of all this myself.
TGFPJ
Anyone wanna play with that one?
No, we haven't. I wish for the choice to do so or not do to be stressed. And if you are going to do this thing in school, at least teach the children the meaning behind it. Who said it has to be abolished?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not saying you want it abolished. I'm saying that you want those who say the pledge to be forced to give their reasons while those who choose not to say the pledge (or choose any other alternative) need not explain themselves.
All sides must be free to choose. And all sides must suffer the consequences of their choice both positive and negative. No side owes the other anything more than the recognition and respect of that which enables the choice of all sides in the first place: individual will and freedom.
Who said they should be forced to give the reason they choose to stand? I said they should stress that the pledge is optional, though open discourse about the pledge wouldn't be a harmful thing either.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
David Holcberg of the Ayn Rand Institute disagrees with you:
http://ari.convio.net/site/News2?JServSessionIdr005=7s89wyw681.app1a&page=NewsArticle&id=8137&news_iv_ctrl=1551
Children Should Not Recite the Pledge of Allegiance
Wednesday, March 24, 2004
By: David Holcberg
Dear Editor:
As the U.S. Supreme Court considers the constitutionality of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance recited in public schools, a deeper, more fundamental question has not even been raised: Why are young children being pressured to make a pledge they lack the knowledge to understand and the maturity to commit themselves to?
Children do not give the Pledge careful consideration and decide, daily, to pledge allegiance to their country under God with liberty and justice for all. The Pledge is a political statement and--since 1954, when "God" was added--a religious statement. The only reason children recite the Pledge is that their educators expect them to.
The purpose of education should be to teach children the knowledge and thinking skills they need to succeed in life, not to train them in parroting political and religious ideas they can't possibly grasp.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Personally, I had no idea what it really meant, so it never had an effect on me. It was always just a good way to get the blood flowing in the morning.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
This is why freedom is a myth. If we all do things our own way, this tramples on others rights. On others freedoms. Having a flag salute in school tamples freedoms. It is ironic really.
I say it tramples freedom because of my earlier point. It creates an unneeded aura of devotion to something not deserving to be set aside for reverence. It is closed minded to affiliate yourself to a single country, that's all.
And yes, I did finally go to bed.
The argument was that they way the school operates, it takes the choice out of saying the pledge. I agree with Abook but since she's said the same thing dozens of times in the thread I don't feel the need to quote her.
Great article Kenny
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
I've never been in a public school that forced kids to say the pledge. One girl in my class all the way up to 5th grade would never say it, and she never got in trouble. In high school I started not standing up for it, and I was never sent to detention. A couple of my homeroom teachers were offended and sent me to the office the first times I did it, but I was always sent right back to class by our vice principal.
If you're in a public school, I really don't think they can force you to say it. They can give you that impression, but if you're afraid to do what you want, then that's your fault, not the school's.
But it doesn't take the choice out of saying the pledge. Being too afraid to be different is not the school's problem, it's the child's problem.
People have to learn to stand up to the institutions they come into contact with. The answer is not to subjegate an institution that is not doing anything fundamentally wrong but rather to simply expect people to stand up for what they believe in.
Regardless of how you slice the arguments here, you're still proposing that one party must explain itself while another must not. That's putting an obligation on one side's free speech, and that's wrong.
I'm all for "open discourse" on the pledge or anything else for that matter. But if that's code speak for some kind of forced asterisk, that defeats the "open" in open discourse.
Look, parents are responsible for shaping a child's education, be it at home or through social constructs like public education. If you put this to an "open discourse", the vast majority of people in this country would still support their child saying the pledge every morning. And as long as those people aren't forcing the ones who disagree to do the same I see absolutely no problem other than perhaps the blind patriotism that is behind the wishes of some which is no more harmful than the blind dissent that is behind the wishes of others.
I'll say it again: if children are being punished by the institution for standing up to it, then I'll agree with you guys here. Otherwise, I'll completely support the right of an institution to start it's day by reading the pledge or reciting the phone book while also supporting the right of any member of that institution to abstain.
You say "they should stress that the pledge is optional". Why? Should teachers stress to children that thinking or breathing is optional? Are children so pathetic that they must be instructed by an institution on their basic functions as human beings?
I remember saying the pledge when I was in kindergarden. after that I went to a private school. I really had no idea what the words meant, maybe a little bit. I did understand that I was asked to stand, put my hand on my heart, and face the flag which was a symbol of america. I never had a problem with that. I am proud to be an American.
I really dont understand why people think its disgusting or strange or too conservative, whatever. When I have kids, I can easily explain to them what the pledge is and tell them they dont have to say it if they dont want to. If their teacher has a problem with that, they can speak to me.
What you felt or had a problem with really isn't the issue though. And certainly many children do not have parents who are going to explain the pledge to them or take responsibility for their children's education.
As a people, we must ensure that our traditions and beliefs are not forced on people. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a child who says the pledge, and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a child who refuses to do so. As long as the option is there for both.....that's what matters.
While the left here makes a huge deal out of the pledge while ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people pay absolutely no heed to to the words or meanings, the right defends the pledge as if it's some kind of hallowed American tradition while ignoring the fact that it's a pretty recent development and doesn't do much to tie American's together as a people.
I would like to think it does. if not, I wish something did.
Something does tie America together (or at least can). But it ain't the pledge. It's what the pledge can stand for, particularly liberty and justice. This country has been predominantly defined throughout it's history not by its wars or its customs or its governments. As a country we have been defined by the fact that we have traditionally held liberty paramount in our society. It is that liberty that can bring the patriots and the dissenters together on the common ground of their freedoms to make their own choices.
But we're saying goodbye to those days. The time where my freedoms depended on your freedoms are coming to a close. We're approaching a new day where my freedoms depend on your subjegation. And I guess at that point it's time to toss the pledge out the window all together because it becomes a hypocrisy for all, regardless of whether they speak it or not.
I wonder how well it goes over in the inner cities of America?