I personally simply ignore any thoughts, or perceptions about separation from ANY discipline in order to get to the heart, soul and truth of the matter. Separation is purely about ego and agendas. I also was not fond of Kabbalah advertising, but, hey, that's why they created this video.
I was blown away, though, that they conceptualized reality amazingly. They conceptualized the Truth--and life outside the cave--very clearly and simply.
The mystic Truths all stand, and are eerily similar. What is not true falls away.
well, i had to be cynical about it. but there is truth is everything. i agree that there is more than just the obvious physical reality. i mean, there has to be, right?
I find the idea of God comforting. It is feeling based. When you think of a single person on a journey across a desert, someone who is not unhappy to be in this position, then you'll have an idea of how I feel. Expansion, hidden mysteries revealed, faith. Although I am part of a major religion, ulimately in my case I see it as an individual journey. With this belief I am not lonely.
I believe that something wonderful and miraculous happened that caused this planet to be. That caused all the things on this planet to be.
I thank it daily for giving me a new day. I do this at dinnertime when I thank it for another meal. I thank it daily for all the gifts that seem to have been given to us.
When I'm handed a really painful and difficult situation, I ask it for help. And then I immediately feel guilty, because I shouldn't ask for such personal assistance from something that obviously had much more of a goal than to help one single occupant of this planet in a time of need. Others are being killed while I eat my dinner. Others are being raped while I sleep.
So I accept that there is a balance, and I try to accept my place in it. And I try to keep my own personal acts balanced, in the meantime. As in, yes I sometimes do the wrong thing. But I mostly try to do the right thing.
What's the right thing? That which does not disturb the work of the wonderful and miraculous thing that happened to cause this planet to be. That caused all the things on this planet to be.
That, to me, is the closest I can come to explaining my variation of what others call God.
of course it doesnt make sense. it cant be proven. and I'm normally a very logic, show me the facts kinda guy.. but sometimes I pretend something does exist beyond my realm of thinking. thats why its called a belief. I'd like to think there is something after death.
I really wish people too my approach....... I dont care what other religion you are. as far as I'm concerned, its none of my business. believe what you believe and have a good time. and I promise never to pressure you to share my beliefs.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
well, i had to be cynical about it. but there is truth is everything. i agree that there is more than just the obvious physical reality. i mean, there has to be, right?
Not only is there a truth beyond the phsyical reality, but we can see it's reflection. For example, have you ever read any of those old "The Science of Growing Rich" type of books? They underly the positive-thinking business type principles that are widely taught and utilized in business. Why? If we sell people "better", if we sell them expansion and evolution, we will get tons of business. That's why as unethical as business can be, it does have to provide service, and expansion in order to exist, or it falls away. Granted, the self-serving aspects of business creates the human fallout and ugliness we might also notice. That's one example. It's so exact a science that people literally bank on it. And when they have figured these principles out, they may utilize this "bestowal", as mutated through the "will to recieve" to consistently wield money and power.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
In order for humanity to be redeemed innocent blood had to be shed because that's what we had given over to the devil back in the garden of eden. We gave him the power over us.... so he ruled us by sin through our minds, and the only way to get out of sin was through death. I don't know why it was like that.... I don't claim to hold all the answers, I only know that biblically speaking this is the correct interpretation of the bible.
Biblically speaking, the only possible reason it was like that is because God created it that way.
It was the only way God could rescue humanity, not because God wished for it to be that way, or because of any other reason other than that "the wages of sin is death."
But if God created everything, then God made all the rules, so he did indeed wish for it to be that way. If the creator of the universe wished for it to operate in some other way, it would.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Biblically speaking, the only possible reason it was like that is because God created it that way.
But if God created everything, then God made all the rules, so he did indeed wish for it to be that way. If the creator of the universe wished for it to operate in some other way, it would.
round and round the mulberry bush
the monkey chased the weasel...
That's too easy.
I think it's simply the brain,
but,
it doesn't really jive with your determinism.
or,
this is your deterministic view
of free will...
however myopic.
kind of silly though.
Language.
You are right, it's the brain, and it's easy.
I copied it and considered deleting the last few lines. Because the habits are also the brains. The "man" in the riddle is little more than consciousness, which is also a part of the brain.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Biblically speaking, the only possible reason it was like that is because God created it that way.
no... not biblically speaking at least. i know.... you can tell me that the bible is open to interpretation but from the common knowledge, or our common understand of the scriptures the context itself tells us that there was something that obviously didn't go according to his plan but knew about and couldn't control. point in case, our own will, something that God has always respected throughout the entire bible.
But if God created everything, then God made all the rules, so he did indeed wish for it to be that way. If the creator of the universe wished for it to operate in some other way, it would.
no, he didn't wish to give our control to the devil and then eventually get it back. like i mentioned above, we had our "own" will. when adam and eve believed in the serpent's lie, it was as if metaphorically we had given our own powers away to the devil.... the power of life, or our immortal status. the devil then took control over us through death...
sure, God made the rules, but knowing that the devil himself, being the father of lies... we can't determine that he also created lies. we could only conclude that through scripture lies originated by the devil.... all of this is like the movie matrix... where we think that what we see is reality but it's not, it's a lie. (only except the reality is much more glorious than the reality the matrix portrays.) because of this, we can't by default say that God is completely responsible. no, we have to take responsibility at some point. sure God is all-knowing, and all-powerful but I can't understand how people conclude that by default he is controlling every single aspect of our lives. i know if you're an atheist, you don't believe in God altogether, but i mean that when they read the bible they assume the bible is claiming this when it is not.
we could say, "why did god create the devil in the first place?" "why didn't god just destroy him, plain and simple?" i would ask the same question about us.... why did he create us altogether in the first place?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
no... not biblically speaking at least. i know.... you can tell me that the bible is open to interpretation but from the common knowledge, or our common understand of the scriptures the context itself tells us that there was something that obviously didn't go according to his plan but knew about and couldn't control. point in case, our own will, something that God has always respected throughout the entire bible.
I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just say that's not what I was taught. I was not taught anything about any mistakes/oversights/things that didn't go according to plan. I was taught the he deliberately gave us free will. But it's entirely possible that the Baptists who taught me didn't have any idea what they were talking about I guess I'll have to go re-read Genesis, it's been a while.
no, he didn't wish to give our control to the devil and then eventually get it back. like i mentioned above, we had our "own" will. when adam and eve believed in the serpent's lie, it was as if metaphorically we had given our own powers away to the devil.... the power of life, or our immortal status. the devil then took control over us through death...
sure, God made the rules, but knowing that the devil himself, being the father of lies... we can't determine that he also created lies. we could only conclude that through scripture lies originated by the devil.... all of this is like the movie matrix... where we think that what we see is reality but it's not, it's a lie. (only except the reality is much more glorious than the reality the matrix portrays.) because of this, we can't by default say that God is completely responsible. no, we have to take responsibility at some point. sure God is all-knowing, and all-powerful but I can't understand how people conclude that by default he is controlling every single aspect of our lives. i know if you're an atheist, you don't believe in God altogether, but i mean that when they read the bible they assume the bible is claiming this when it is not.
we could say, "why did god create the devil in the first place?" "why didn't god just destroy him, plain and simple?" i would ask the same question about us.... why did he create us altogether in the first place?
Again, I can only tell you the interpretation I was taught, and within that framework I can't see why an omnipotent god couldn't set things up however he liked them, or change things if he saw it wasn't working well .... then again, as an all-knowing being he should have known they wouldn't work well ... or is he not omnipotent? The Baptists were mighty clear on that point, I can tell you that much, but perhaps you've learned something different, either in your tradition or through your own study.
And thank you for your continued polite replies to what must often seem like ridiculous questions
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
no, we have to take responsibility at some point. sure God is all-knowing, and all-powerful but I can't understand how people conclude that by default he is controlling every single aspect of our lives. i know if you're an atheist, you don't believe in God altogether, but i mean that when they read the bible they assume the bible is claiming this when it is not.
we could say, "why did god create the devil in the first place?" "why didn't god just destroy him, plain and simple?" i would ask the same question about us.... why did he create us altogether in the first place?
Exactly, why did he?
The more I read about the christian god here, the more I think he's a jerk.
1) He creates us and loved us, supposedly, unconditionally.
2) He creates evil (because he is the creator of everything)
3) He gives us free will and knows we'll choose evil, that's how he made us.
4) Then because we choose evil (which he created and which he knew we would choose) we messed up. Messed up according to his rules, which he could change.
5) He sends Jesus to save us yet he knows only about 25% of the people will get into heaven.
6) The other 75% of his children, whom he loves so much, will have to go to hell, because they chose that road (tell that to the people who dedicated their life to god except their god was named Allah and Jesus was just a prophet)
For an all-powerful god whose love is infinite, that's pretty weak.
I'm thinking about a mother here with 6 children, she puts some freshly baked cookies on the table, tells the kids they cannot eat them. And she goes away or hides in the closet whatever. Then when all her kids eat the cookies, she kicks them out of her house.
Then she sends a dude to tell the kids to follow him and obey all these rules and then they will be let inside the house again, but at the same time about 5 other guys are telling a very similar story. Only two of the children pick the right guy. Then at the front door, she sees one of them has been naughty and kicks him out, but she lets the other one back into the house.
Not exactly what I'd call "love" but that's god simplified. This is child neglect and abuse, I think.
So 20% of the worlds population consider themselves Christians.....so that means God will be sending the rest, 80% straight to hell.....he knows they're not converting...he knows they're not "innocents". Now why would god do that?
That's why you shouldn't pretend to know what God's thinking; but as has been mentioned in other posts, God is the one that judges, God knows the heart and since he has that keen insight he'll be able to judge perfectly. But it's odd that you put the onus on God and ignore human accountability. There are plenty of people who convert in other countries to Christianity so it's not an American or European thing. But again, God is the perfect judge not humans
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I have been struck by reading the thread that the biggest problem reconciling is with God's love. ie. if god loves us unconditionally why do people go to hell etc...
I found a book that addresses some of these issues it's called "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" By: D.A. Carson here's description of it
Description: A noted evangelical scholar presents a serious treatment of the doctrine of the love of God and an honest, biblically sound handling of its difficulties and problematic passages. He critiques sentimental ideas such as "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" and provides interesting perspective on how God loves us. This discussion is blended with consideration of God's sovereignty and His wrath, both of which are important elements of His love, and does away with trivialities and cliches to get to the heart of the matter.
At first thought, understanding the doctrine of the love of God seems simple compared to trying to fathom other doctrines like that of the Trinity or predestination. Especially since the overwhelming majority of those who believe in God view Him as a loving being.
That is precisely what makes this doctrine so difficult. The only aspect of God's character the world still believes in is His love. His holiness, His sovereignty, His wrath are often rejected as being incompatible with a "loving" God. Because pop culture has so distorted and secularized God's love, many Christians have lost a biblical understanding of it and, in turn, lost a vital means to knowing who God is.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I have been struck by reading the thread that the biggest problem reconciling is with God's love. ie. if god loves us unconditionally why do people go to hell etc...
I found a book that addresses some of these issues it's called "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" By: D.A. Carson here's description of it
Description: A noted evangelical scholar presents a serious treatment of the doctrine of the love of God and an honest, biblically sound handling of its difficulties and problematic passages. He critiques sentimental ideas such as "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" and provides interesting perspective on how God loves us. This discussion is blended with consideration of God's sovereignty and His wrath, both of which are important elements of His love, and does away with trivialities and cliches to get to the heart of the matter.
At first thought, understanding the doctrine of the love of God seems simple compared to trying to fathom other doctrines like that of the Trinity or predestination. Especially since the overwhelming majority of those who believe in God view Him as a loving being.
That is precisely what makes this doctrine so difficult. The only aspect of God's character the world still believes in is His love. His holiness, His sovereignty, His wrath are often rejected as being incompatible with a "loving" God. Because pop culture has so distorted and secularized God's love, many Christians have lost a biblical understanding of it and, in turn, lost a vital means to knowing who God is.
I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just say that's not what I was taught. I was not taught anything about any mistakes/oversights/things that didn't go according to plan. I was taught the he deliberately gave us free will. But it's entirely possible that the Baptists who taught me didn't have any idea what they were talking about I guess I'll have to go re-read Genesis, it's been a while.
Again, I can only tell you the interpretation I was taught, and within that framework I can't see why an omnipotent god couldn't set things up however he liked them, or change things if he saw it wasn't working well .... then again, as an all-knowing being he should have known they wouldn't work well ... or is he not omnipotent? The Baptists were mighty clear on that point, I can tell you that much, but perhaps you've learned something different, either in your tradition or through your own study.
And thank you for your continued polite replies to what must often seem like ridiculous questions
read Genesis 6:6... right before the flood... it reads "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
I don't know what those baptists were teaching you but the Bible points very clear that God himself was not entirely happy with how things turned out.
I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is. What I am saying is that even though God is powerful and he could interfere in our lives if he wanted to by his own will, he doesn't.
So if he was all-knowing why didn't he set things up in a way that would work well? I don't know... I can't answer that question. I've never created a universe so I don't know what is a better way to create one. All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I have been struck by reading the thread that the biggest problem reconciling is with God's love. ie. if god loves us unconditionally why do people go to hell etc...
I found a book that addresses some of these issues it's called "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" By: D.A. Carson here's description of it
Description: A noted evangelical scholar presents a serious treatment of the doctrine of the love of God and an honest, biblically sound handling of its difficulties and problematic passages. He critiques sentimental ideas such as "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" and provides interesting perspective on how God loves us. This discussion is blended with consideration of God's sovereignty and His wrath, both of which are important elements of His love, and does away with trivialities and cliches to get to the heart of the matter.
At first thought, understanding the doctrine of the love of God seems simple compared to trying to fathom other doctrines like that of the Trinity or predestination. Especially since the overwhelming majority of those who believe in God view Him as a loving being.
That is precisely what makes this doctrine so difficult. The only aspect of God's character the world still believes in is His love. His holiness, His sovereignty, His wrath are often rejected as being incompatible with a "loving" God. Because pop culture has so distorted and secularized God's love, many Christians have lost a biblical understanding of it and, in turn, lost a vital means to knowing who God is.
i wonder what his thoughts are on predestination.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
read Genesis 6:6... right before the flood... it reads "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
I don't know what those baptists were teaching you but the Bible points very clear that God himself was not entirely happy with how things turned out.
I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is. What I am saying is that even though God is powerful and he could interfere in our lives if he wanted to by his own will, he doesn't.
So if he was all-knowing why didn't he set things up in a way that would work well? I don't know... I can't answer that question. I've never created a universe so I don't know what is a better way to create one. All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."
I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is.
...
All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."
The more I read about the christian god here, the more I think he's a jerk.
1) He creates us and loved us, supposedly, unconditionally.
yes.
2) He creates evil (because he is the creator of everything)
yes.
3) He gives us free will and knows we'll choose evil, that's how he made us.
no. he didn't make us that way. he designed us with a will. he didn't create us by default that we would choose evil.
4) Then because we choose evil (which he created and which he knew we would choose) we messed up. Messed up according to his rules, which he could change.
you're simplifying the concept. yes God knew everything. but he didn't purposely create us this way so he could play around with us, like pearl jam's "all god's dice". the bible claims he had a purpose, but his purpose didn't work out so clearly unlike he expected... and it was something that he couldn't do about. point in case, again, our very own will. yes, he changed the rules, but that doesn't come until later when we see Jesus. when we messed up, we didn't mess up according to his rules, but according to the rules of sin and death. the knowledge of good AND evil, the nature that Lucifer had brought upon himself and by which he enstilled in ours when we believed in his lie.
5) He sends Jesus to save us yet he knows only about 25% of the people will get into heaven.
i don't know if you're referring to predestination, or maybe you're not referring to anything in particular.
i was getting into a concept once.. there is a scripture, i couldn't find it. that says when God judges the sinners, he says, "depart from me, for i did not know you." this got me thinking a bit, maybe God doesn't know who is or who isn't going to heaven or hell. maybe he doesn't even see the world as it is now because if he would he'd probably wanna destroy it like he did in the days of noah, but now all he worries about and all he sees is the church, the body of christ and those who believe in his name.
no, i don't believe that God picks and chooses who goes to heaven. that's our choice. that's my argument against predestination... he only predestined those who believe in his name to enter into his glory. other than that, he doesn't chose who enters or who doesn't. so in that sense, no he doesn't know if it will be 25% or 30% or 50%.
6) The other 75% of his children, whom he loves so much, will have to go to hell, because they chose that road (tell that to the people who dedicated their life to god except their god was named Allah and Jesus was just a prophet)
i agree. they're beliefs... everything is about beliefs. you've got your own. me telling them that jesus is the only way, is like them telling me that jesus is a prophet, and them telling me that jesus is a prophet is like you telling me that there is no god. it's the way it goes. as human beings, we have to accept that and live by it.
I'm thinking about a mother here with 6 children, she puts some freshly baked cookies on the table, tells the kids they cannot eat them. And she goes away or hides in the closet whatever. Then when all her kids eat the cookies, she kicks them out of her house.
Then she sends a dude to tell the kids to follow him and obey all these rules and then they will be let inside the house again, but at the same time about 5 other guys are telling a very similar story. Only two of the children pick the right guy. Then at the front door, she sees one of them has been naughty and kicks him out, but she lets the other one back into the house.
Not exactly what I'd call "love" but that's god simplified. This is child neglect and abuse, I think.
well about the last boy being kicked out because he's been "naughty" that's not how God works... that's just your interpretation simplifying God. and another thing if the mother set out that one dude to bring back the children they wouldn't have to follow all these rules... all they gotta do is believe that dude and follow him and he'll bring them back to the house. they won't have to worry about these "rules" cause the dude will fix it for them. even if they've been naughty, the dude will fix it for them...all they would have to do is believe in that dude, that's it.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is.
...
All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."
the bible claims he had a purpose, but his purpose didn't work out so clearly unlike he expected... and it was something that he couldn't do about. point in case, again, our very own will.
since he placed a will in us to make our own decisions it's as if God's glory is perfected in our lives when we choose life, or the life that Christ came to show us. and basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden... or so it goes.
God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land...
I don't see how you can miss the contradictions.
God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise, which actually means his creation wasn't perfect. He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).
Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5). He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).
God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise, which actually means his creation wasn't perfect. He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).
Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5). He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).
i've made it as simple as i could possibly do.
God creates everything. God knows everything. God gave us a will. God knew that we would fail him. God would not interfere in that choice, so he designed a plan to rescue us from the choices that we made. The choice was our belief in the serpent's lie. What is it that you're having a hard time understanding? Cos I really don't want to read into every single detail or i might misinterpret something that you say along the way.
from all that you posted above i really can't follow what it is you're having a hard time understanding. maybe your approach is a bit too complicated for me, i don't know.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise,which actually means his creation wasn't perfect.
the bible says that when he created everything he "saw that it was good." But when we disobeyed God, sin entered and separated us from God. it doesn't mean that we were already created imperfect. the fact that we have a will makes us like these little intricate beings perfectly designed as God planned. What he didn't plan was for us to die, or perish....
He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).
our will wasn't what destroyed us. the choice that we made was what destroyed us.
Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5).
yes, exactly. you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature. "lest any man be born again of the word and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." you have to be "cleansed", spiritually speaking. the only reason why jesus is the only way is because he's the only one who accomplished this "perfect" life and conquered sin and death.
He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).
his gift to us is Jesus Christ... because that's what death was asking for. so it's like a kid who is taken ransom and the killer is asking for "flesh and blood" in order for the child to be set free. God says, take this son instead.... knowingly that his son jesus would not fail him and would come out of it alive.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
the bible says that when he created everything he "saw that it was good." But when we disobeyed God, sin entered and separated us from God. it doesn't mean that we were already created imperfect. the fact that we have a will makes us like these little intricate beings perfectly designed as God planned. What he didn't plan was for us to die, or perish....
How can god not know what will happen if he knows all? He created us perfect but he knew we'd choose the wrong path and that would make us imperfect.
That doesn't make sense, if you know everything, past, present and future you know your creation is imperfect. He knew the choice we would make, would make us imperfect, which means he knew he made us imperfect.
He might have designed us perfectly with free will, but he perfectly designed imperfect beings.
God knew that we would fail him. God would not interfere in that choice, so he designed a plan to rescue us from the choices that we made.
He designed a plan, which he knew only a few would follow, regardless of free will. It's the crappiest plan ever, if you ask me.
yes, exactly. you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature. "lest any man be born again of the word and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." you have to be "cleansed", spiritually speaking. the only reason why jesus is the only way is because he's the only one who accomplished this "perfect" life and conquered sin and death.
Ah, the crappy plan.
"you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature."
Yes, you can. He can allow you in, that is if he is indeed all-powerful. If he really can't, he isn't all-powerful, which would be a contradiction. And if he can but doesn't want to, it's also a contradiction because you said:
basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden...
Comments
well, i had to be cynical about it. but there is truth is everything. i agree that there is more than just the obvious physical reality. i mean, there has to be, right?
why???
because common sense tells me that God and the Bible are the most fucking ridiculous fairy tales ever conceived.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I think I've found my soulmates.
So many great answers in this thread
Such as....?
The age of the planet
The origin of species
Perhaps those revelations are in-fact just wrong.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
But if God created everything, then God made all the rules, so he did indeed wish for it to be that way. If the creator of the universe wished for it to operate in some other way, it would.
round and round the mulberry bush
the monkey chased the weasel...
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That's too easy.
I think it's simply the brain,
but,
it doesn't really jive with your determinism.
or,
this is your deterministic view
of free will...
however myopic.
kind of silly though.
Language.
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You are right, it's the brain, and it's easy.
I copied it and considered deleting the last few lines. Because the habits are also the brains. The "man" in the riddle is little more than consciousness, which is also a part of the brain.
no, he didn't wish to give our control to the devil and then eventually get it back. like i mentioned above, we had our "own" will. when adam and eve believed in the serpent's lie, it was as if metaphorically we had given our own powers away to the devil.... the power of life, or our immortal status. the devil then took control over us through death...
sure, God made the rules, but knowing that the devil himself, being the father of lies... we can't determine that he also created lies. we could only conclude that through scripture lies originated by the devil.... all of this is like the movie matrix... where we think that what we see is reality but it's not, it's a lie. (only except the reality is much more glorious than the reality the matrix portrays.) because of this, we can't by default say that God is completely responsible. no, we have to take responsibility at some point. sure God is all-knowing, and all-powerful but I can't understand how people conclude that by default he is controlling every single aspect of our lives. i know if you're an atheist, you don't believe in God altogether, but i mean that when they read the bible they assume the bible is claiming this when it is not.
we could say, "why did god create the devil in the first place?" "why didn't god just destroy him, plain and simple?" i would ask the same question about us.... why did he create us altogether in the first place?
have i been conditioned?
after going to Mass for over 40 years i find myself not going anymore
i am lost? i guess...........
but i am ok w/that. I feel i am a good person still
Again, I can only tell you the interpretation I was taught, and within that framework I can't see why an omnipotent god couldn't set things up however he liked them, or change things if he saw it wasn't working well .... then again, as an all-knowing being he should have known they wouldn't work well ... or is he not omnipotent? The Baptists were mighty clear on that point, I can tell you that much, but perhaps you've learned something different, either in your tradition or through your own study.
And thank you for your continued polite replies to what must often seem like ridiculous questions
Exactly, why did he?
The more I read about the christian god here, the more I think he's a jerk.
1) He creates us and loved us, supposedly, unconditionally.
2) He creates evil (because he is the creator of everything)
3) He gives us free will and knows we'll choose evil, that's how he made us.
4) Then because we choose evil (which he created and which he knew we would choose) we messed up. Messed up according to his rules, which he could change.
5) He sends Jesus to save us yet he knows only about 25% of the people will get into heaven.
6) The other 75% of his children, whom he loves so much, will have to go to hell, because they chose that road (tell that to the people who dedicated their life to god except their god was named Allah and Jesus was just a prophet)
For an all-powerful god whose love is infinite, that's pretty weak.
I'm thinking about a mother here with 6 children, she puts some freshly baked cookies on the table, tells the kids they cannot eat them. And she goes away or hides in the closet whatever. Then when all her kids eat the cookies, she kicks them out of her house.
Then she sends a dude to tell the kids to follow him and obey all these rules and then they will be let inside the house again, but at the same time about 5 other guys are telling a very similar story. Only two of the children pick the right guy. Then at the front door, she sees one of them has been naughty and kicks him out, but she lets the other one back into the house.
Not exactly what I'd call "love" but that's god simplified. This is child neglect and abuse, I think.
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That's why you shouldn't pretend to know what God's thinking; but as has been mentioned in other posts, God is the one that judges, God knows the heart and since he has that keen insight he'll be able to judge perfectly. But it's odd that you put the onus on God and ignore human accountability. There are plenty of people who convert in other countries to Christianity so it's not an American or European thing. But again, God is the perfect judge not humans
I found a book that addresses some of these issues it's called "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God" By: D.A. Carson here's description of it
Description: A noted evangelical scholar presents a serious treatment of the doctrine of the love of God and an honest, biblically sound handling of its difficulties and problematic passages. He critiques sentimental ideas such as "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" and provides interesting perspective on how God loves us. This discussion is blended with consideration of God's sovereignty and His wrath, both of which are important elements of His love, and does away with trivialities and cliches to get to the heart of the matter.
At first thought, understanding the doctrine of the love of God seems simple compared to trying to fathom other doctrines like that of the Trinity or predestination. Especially since the overwhelming majority of those who believe in God view Him as a loving being.
That is precisely what makes this doctrine so difficult. The only aspect of God's character the world still believes in is His love. His holiness, His sovereignty, His wrath are often rejected as being incompatible with a "loving" God. Because pop culture has so distorted and secularized God's love, many Christians have lost a biblical understanding of it and, in turn, lost a vital means to knowing who God is.
Sounds interesting.
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I don't know what those baptists were teaching you but the Bible points very clear that God himself was not entirely happy with how things turned out.
I'm not saying he isn't omnipotent, he is. I'm not saying he isn't omniscient, he is. What I am saying is that even though God is powerful and he could interfere in our lives if he wanted to by his own will, he doesn't.
So if he was all-knowing why didn't he set things up in a way that would work well? I don't know... I can't answer that question. I've never created a universe so I don't know what is a better way to create one. All I know is that God had originally created things perfectly but because of our disobedience and our belief in a lie we entered into this "state of corruption."
Aww, c'mon. Create a universe.
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To me this sounds like a contradiction.
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i was getting into a concept once.. there is a scripture, i couldn't find it. that says when God judges the sinners, he says, "depart from me, for i did not know you." this got me thinking a bit, maybe God doesn't know who is or who isn't going to heaven or hell. maybe he doesn't even see the world as it is now because if he would he'd probably wanna destroy it like he did in the days of noah, but now all he worries about and all he sees is the church, the body of christ and those who believe in his name.
no, i don't believe that God picks and chooses who goes to heaven. that's our choice. that's my argument against predestination... he only predestined those who believe in his name to enter into his glory. other than that, he doesn't chose who enters or who doesn't. so in that sense, no he doesn't know if it will be 25% or 30% or 50%. i agree. they're beliefs... everything is about beliefs. you've got your own. me telling them that jesus is the only way, is like them telling me that jesus is a prophet, and them telling me that jesus is a prophet is like you telling me that there is no god. it's the way it goes. as human beings, we have to accept that and live by it.
well about the last boy being kicked out because he's been "naughty" that's not how God works... that's just your interpretation simplifying God. and another thing if the mother set out that one dude to bring back the children they wouldn't have to follow all these rules... all they gotta do is believe that dude and follow him and he'll bring them back to the house. they won't have to worry about these "rules" cause the dude will fix it for them. even if they've been naughty, the dude will fix it for them...all they would have to do is believe in that dude, that's it.
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
I don't see how you can miss the contradictions.
God is supposed to be this perfect being (1) that knows everything (5) even what we will do in the future (3), he created something perfect (1) but he gave his own creation something (3) which he knew (3) would destroy his perfect paradise, which actually means his creation wasn't perfect. He gave us this gift (free will) although he knew (3) it would destroy his "perfect" creation, which he never wanted although he knew it would happen, and he also says he'll never interfere with our free will (3).
Now because of our free will, which he gave to us, we're fucked, sort of. But you'd expect that this god, who's perfect (1,5) would be able to forgive us, because what he wants is to give us back the glorious life that we once had in the garden of eden (4). But he cannot do that, although he is perfect and all-powerful. No, instead you have to go through his son first because if you don't he can't (won't) forgive you and let you into his paradise, even though that's what he wants (5). He also knows (1) that there are so many people who will not believe in Jesus because of free will, his gift, so he sends them to hell although he wants to give them paradise (4).
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God creates everything. God knows everything. God gave us a will. God knew that we would fail him. God would not interfere in that choice, so he designed a plan to rescue us from the choices that we made. The choice was our belief in the serpent's lie. What is it that you're having a hard time understanding? Cos I really don't want to read into every single detail or i might misinterpret something that you say along the way.
from all that you posted above i really can't follow what it is you're having a hard time understanding. maybe your approach is a bit too complicated for me, i don't know.
the bible says that when he created everything he "saw that it was good." But when we disobeyed God, sin entered and separated us from God. it doesn't mean that we were already created imperfect. the fact that we have a will makes us like these little intricate beings perfectly designed as God planned. What he didn't plan was for us to die, or perish....
our will wasn't what destroyed us. the choice that we made was what destroyed us.
yes, exactly. you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature. "lest any man be born again of the word and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." you have to be "cleansed", spiritually speaking. the only reason why jesus is the only way is because he's the only one who accomplished this "perfect" life and conquered sin and death.
his gift to us is Jesus Christ... because that's what death was asking for. so it's like a kid who is taken ransom and the killer is asking for "flesh and blood" in order for the child to be set free. God says, take this son instead.... knowingly that his son jesus would not fail him and would come out of it alive.
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How can god not know what will happen if he knows all? He created us perfect but he knew we'd choose the wrong path and that would make us imperfect.
That doesn't make sense, if you know everything, past, present and future you know your creation is imperfect. He knew the choice we would make, would make us imperfect, which means he knew he made us imperfect.
He might have designed us perfectly with free will, but he perfectly designed imperfect beings.
He designed a plan, which he knew only a few would follow, regardless of free will. It's the crappiest plan ever, if you ask me.
Ah, the crappy plan.
"you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature."
Yes, you can. He can allow you in, that is if he is indeed all-powerful. If he really can't, he isn't all-powerful, which would be a contradiction. And if he can but doesn't want to, it's also a contradiction because you said:
basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden...
That's what I don't get...
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