maybe you just have a hard time believing that jesus actually achieved a pure life. if you believe that, you wouldn't have a hard time believing that God's justice is fair.
however, i thought i did mention that jesus achieved a perfect life and died on the cross and rose from the grave somewhere on there... all well. sorry if i didn't.
i know you'll probably live out the rest of your life believing that the biblical God is vain, petty and arbitrary and i'll never try to restrict you from believing it. the bible itself says that there are people who curse God's judgements and Paul speaks on numerous occasions that God's justice is like foolishness to men. so i won't deny it from you.
the main reason why God did it this way through Jesus was because he wanted to show and prove that humans are capable of living a perfect life, because that's what he created them for. his bewildering and random rule-making came with the whole mix up with the israelites and all... but now it's all basically it's all just about faith, hope and love... and all those things point to jesus. well, at least it does in the bible.
i have no trouble believing that jesus led a pure life. that he practised all that he preached. but i do have a major problem, as you know, with the existence of God.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i have no trouble believing that jesus led a pure life. that he practised all that he preached. but i do have a major problem, as you know, with the existence of God.
well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Wow. There is absolutely no way I could ever believe in a supposedly divine being calling for the deaths of his own innocent creations for any reason. I'm not saying I'd dislike him, or turn against him ... but that there's no possible way I could ever believe that such a being even exists in the first place. That's something only humans could come up with, there's nothing remotely "divine" about it. It's disgusting.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
is God cruel for setting it up that way? i don't think so.
I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.
Oh yes, tricks, illusions, this is what makes the earth rotate.
well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.
i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.
well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.
Hey Dead, tell me what's wrong about believing in yourself.
i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.
actually, i'm not sure where you're going with the righteous part.... i'll be the first to admit i'm not righteous. i think excluding yourself as righteous is a first step to self-discovery, whatever that means. just sounded kinda nice.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.
i had a muslim friend.... a very close friend of mine, actually. we were open about our faiths to each other. we'd always discuss about our faiths.... neither one of us thought God was "unfair". we just understood we had different beliefs that all originated from a same source.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i am an atheist. i don't believe in a God cause it makes absolutely no sense to me. this has been the case since i was 11 years old. religion does not give me the answers i require.
...
I believe in God (I use the term, 'God', for lack of a better term) because I do not believe we are here without a reason for being. We cannot be the highest form in this Universe... the Universe is just too great of a place for us to be its highest form.
I don't believe God created us to worship Him... or fear Him. He or It created the circumstances for us to live. But, possession of life is not the only thing. My cat... my hamster... my lawn all possess life. And we (humans) learn, at a very early age, that we are all destined to die. I believe there HAS to be a reason why we are here. We just haven't figured it out, yet.
We created God in order to place something greater over us. I reject religion because religion tends to project onto our God... all of our human imperfections. I don't believe God is judgemental or vengeful... those are human traits we granted Him to keep us in line with a common order here on Earth. I believe that God loves us all... people, cats, dogs, hamsters, grass. And love is a human trait we all possess, but do not always call on. We also grant God love as we know it.
As for this grand 'design'... it is really chaos in which we exist. This planet just happens to orbit the right sized star... at a right distance from it... at the right time in its (the Sun's) life to allow the vast diversity of life to exist. But, it will all cease to exist. The Sun will eventually die and when it does... this planet will no longer exist in the correct situation to sustain life. There will eventually be no Sun... no Earth... no you or me... no cats or dogs or hamsters or grass. But, someplace else in the Universe, the right situation will exist for life to flourish. And it has probably already happened someplace else in the Universe... life is a cycle that exists not only here on Earth, but all throughout the Universe.
We create Heaven and Hell because we want something else beyond this existance. We want ultimate justice for the murderers and their victims, so we create Heaven and Hell. The one thing I am hoping for is truth. I believe we create our own Heaven and Hell and we all see ourselves as good and going to Heaven. I believe that God just wants us to be happy. To treat others as we would like others to treat us. And maybe someday, we'll figure it out... but, I have my doubts. As long as Man continues to place his negative traits... jealousy, envy, intolerance, hate... he will never find God.
That is why I am not counting on being rewarded by God with some sort of gift of Heaven. To me, that is giving with strings attached. I try to be good, not so God will judge me kindly... but, because it is simply the right thing to do. I do good deeds simply because... I do not expect anything in return. I try not to do bad things... but, I fail simply because I am human and that's what humans do... we fail. I accept my failures and don't blame them on anyone or anything else... it's all on me.
But... that's just me. That is my lot. If someone else finds hope and comfort in religion... that's fine. Whatever makes them happy. I'm just saying that religion is just not my cup of tea. To me, religion is a filter between me and my God... to the next guy, religion has a completely different meaning. I am not going to try to convince anyone to follow my lead... I'm alone on this road... a road we all share. Many roads lead to God... I believe we all just need to find our own way. I just wish we would all be a little nicer to each other along our journey.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i had a muslim friend.... a very close friend of mine, actually. we were open about our faiths to each other. we'd always discuss about our faiths.... neither one of us thought God was "unfair". we just understood we had different beliefs that all originated from a same source.
Yes, understanding you have different beliefs is one thing. But that was not what hippiemom said. Read her post again, carefully. And address the point.
actually, i'm not sure where you're going with the righteous part.... i'll be the first to admit i'm not righteous. i think excluding yourself as righteous is a first step to self-discovery, whatever that means. just sounded kinda nice.
by righteous i mean not only living my life so as not to intentionally do wrong or harm to others, but also by doing good for others.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
"There are around a hundred Prophecies in the Old Testament that are commonly referred to as being fulfilled by Jesus. Each of them has been subjected to extensive examination by countless scholars and other authors, with intent to either prove or disprove the validity. Since many hundreds of books have been written on those various issues, and much of the argument in either direction seems to be reliant on the opinions of the various authors, BELIEVE has chosen not to get into those matters, but just to list the most commonly accepted ones."
I remember reading somewhere that the first stories about Jesus were the stories about his death and resurrection, which if you think about it makes perfect sense. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you will;)) that the NT was written some time after Jesus's death and resurrection.
It would be more logical to write about his death and resurrection first because it was fresh in the memory, how many people even knew about Jesus's birth? So gradually they started writing other stories as well (based on memories, stories...), they would know less about his young years and about his birth. So, the theory said, perhaps they were so impressed and convinced that Jesus was indeed the son of god (perhaps they saw his resurrection, perhaps he didn't rise from the dead at all maybe he was just a very remarkable revolutionary man, that besides the point now) that they wanted everyone to see that he was so great, that they wanted his message to be spread and accepted? It was indeed so. So what better way than to make Jesus fulfil these prophecies in those stories, they didn't have much to begin with anyway, who would even know? They knew if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies people would accept Jesus as their savior much easier.
i had a muslim friend.... a very close friend of mine, actually. we were open about our faiths to each other. we'd always discuss about our faiths.... neither one of us thought God was "unfair". we just understood we had different beliefs that all originated from a same source.
That's because neither of you knows yet whether either of you are right. If it turns out that one of you is, the other is in for a nasty surprise, one I doubt you'd take well.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Wow. There is absolutely no way I could ever believe in a supposedly divine being calling for the deaths of his own innocent creations for any reason. I'm not saying I'd dislike him, or turn against him ... but that there's no possible way I could ever believe that such a being even exists in the first place. That's something only humans could come up with, there's nothing remotely "divine" about it. It's disgusting.
It is disgusting, just like sin (from a christian persepective). There are many parallels b/t the sacrifice in the OT and Jesus death and resurrection in the NT. You need to approach it from such a way that humans are definitely more important to God than animals and the salvation of humans is what is most important to him. I'm sure you can see the symbolism of a perfect lamb being offered and having the blood shed in repentance of sin...it is quite gruesome, no doubt about it...so was Jesus death on the cross.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
because he brings me breakfast in bed every morning. no jokes. you may not dispute that. by the way i believe. find it troublesome to give a declaration of "why" i believe in God on a pearl jam message board with hoards of atheists dying to prove their point of view to be the right one.
son i won't go there. i mean, it's just not worth all the gibberish.
Athens, Greece: 2006/09/30
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
I remember reading somewhere that the first stories about Jesus were the stories about his death and resurrection, which if you think about it makes perfect sense. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you will;)) that the NT was written some time after Jesus's death and resurrection.
It would be more logical to write about his death and resurrection first because it was fresh in the memory, how many people even knew about Jesus's birth? So gradually they started writing other stories as well (based on memories, stories...), they would know less about his young years and about his birth. So, the theory said, perhaps they were so impressed and convinced that Jesus was indeed the son of god (perhaps they saw his resurrection, perhaps he didn't rise from the dead at all maybe he was just a very remarkable revolutionary man, that besides the point now) that they wanted everyone to see that he was so great, that they wanted his message to be spread and accepted? It was indeed so. So what better way than to make Jesus fulfil these prophecies in those stories, they didn't have much to begin with anyway, who would even know? They knew if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies people would accept Jesus as their savior much easier.
you're correct in that the NT was written after his death and resurrection, so I'll let you off the hook on that one
You're also correct in that they could have written it with the entire OT in mind and made Jesus someone he wasn't; orthodox Jews don't believe that he was the Messiah...I don't believe they challenge his existence, just his divinity.
It comes down to belief in the Bible and what it says. The Bible claims to be the inspired word of God written by men, but guided by God. Which again, is a nice claim to put in it if it's true or if you want people to follow a hoax; have the "holy book" claim to be "holy" from within. So you can again believe it to be true or you can say the authors were once again brilliant at "conning" people to believe in Christ. One of the major reasons I don't believe it's a con job is b/c of the internal validity of the Bible and b/c the authors of the NT gave up their lives for it and were killed for it. Why would they all die for a cause they would have almost certainly known was a lie? but that's a different discussion altogether.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.
It is a different discussion, indeed, but I could think of quite a few reason, which aren't so far fetched, imo.
i really don't want to open yet another can of Christianty worms in a thread that was originially not intended to be a discussion on the validity of Christian faith, but, i'd be interested in hearing some of these.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
by righteous i mean not only living my life so as not to intentionally do wrong or harm to others, but also by doing good for others.
well, i guess you've just put on a whole new meaning to righteousness all on your own. righteousness literally means perfection. upright, a just man/woman, a perfect person.
that i'd doubt anyone has ever lived by
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Yes, understanding you have different beliefs is one thing. But that was not what hippiemom said. Read her post again, carefully. And address the point.
you're right i read it wrong. i was getting real sleepy when i read it. but like i said earlier.... i have my beliefs about those things and i really don't want to get into the theology of it.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
That's because neither of you knows yet whether either of you are right. If it turns out that one of you is, the other is in for a nasty surprise, one I doubt you'd take well.
well, isn't that what faith is???? he had his faith, i have my faith.... ok, sure, yeah, we'd both might be in for a nasty surprise. but it's not going to affect either me or him, because afterall we're both convicted of what we believe. it's kinda like a two-way street... i'm not going to spend my life proving that mine is the truth. if someone wants to believe it, fine. if they don't, fine as well. it's not going to change a single thing.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well, isn't that what faith is???? he had his faith, i have my faith.... ok, sure, yeah, we'd both might be in for a nasty surprise. but it's not going to affect either me or him, because afterall we're both convicted of what we believe. it's kinda like a two-way street... i'm not going to spend my life proving that mine is the truth. if someone wants to believe it, fine. if they don't, fine as well. it's not going to change a single thing.
I'd say it's going to affect at least one of you quite dramatically somewhere down the line. I'm not suggesting that you try to change one another's beliefs, just sayin'. I sure wish I'd be around to hear the very surprised thoughts of one or both of you when the time comes, regarding the fairness of it all.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
i have no trouble believing that jesus led a pure life. that he practised all that he preached. but i do have a major problem, as you know, with the existence of God.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
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Oh yes, tricks, illusions, this is what makes the earth rotate.
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Discuss.
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i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Amen
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Hey Dead, tell me what's wrong about believing in yourself.
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I believe in God (I use the term, 'God', for lack of a better term) because I do not believe we are here without a reason for being. We cannot be the highest form in this Universe... the Universe is just too great of a place for us to be its highest form.
I don't believe God created us to worship Him... or fear Him. He or It created the circumstances for us to live. But, possession of life is not the only thing. My cat... my hamster... my lawn all possess life. And we (humans) learn, at a very early age, that we are all destined to die. I believe there HAS to be a reason why we are here. We just haven't figured it out, yet.
We created God in order to place something greater over us. I reject religion because religion tends to project onto our God... all of our human imperfections. I don't believe God is judgemental or vengeful... those are human traits we granted Him to keep us in line with a common order here on Earth. I believe that God loves us all... people, cats, dogs, hamsters, grass. And love is a human trait we all possess, but do not always call on. We also grant God love as we know it.
As for this grand 'design'... it is really chaos in which we exist. This planet just happens to orbit the right sized star... at a right distance from it... at the right time in its (the Sun's) life to allow the vast diversity of life to exist. But, it will all cease to exist. The Sun will eventually die and when it does... this planet will no longer exist in the correct situation to sustain life. There will eventually be no Sun... no Earth... no you or me... no cats or dogs or hamsters or grass. But, someplace else in the Universe, the right situation will exist for life to flourish. And it has probably already happened someplace else in the Universe... life is a cycle that exists not only here on Earth, but all throughout the Universe.
We create Heaven and Hell because we want something else beyond this existance. We want ultimate justice for the murderers and their victims, so we create Heaven and Hell. The one thing I am hoping for is truth. I believe we create our own Heaven and Hell and we all see ourselves as good and going to Heaven. I believe that God just wants us to be happy. To treat others as we would like others to treat us. And maybe someday, we'll figure it out... but, I have my doubts. As long as Man continues to place his negative traits... jealousy, envy, intolerance, hate... he will never find God.
That is why I am not counting on being rewarded by God with some sort of gift of Heaven. To me, that is giving with strings attached. I try to be good, not so God will judge me kindly... but, because it is simply the right thing to do. I do good deeds simply because... I do not expect anything in return. I try not to do bad things... but, I fail simply because I am human and that's what humans do... we fail. I accept my failures and don't blame them on anyone or anything else... it's all on me.
But... that's just me. That is my lot. If someone else finds hope and comfort in religion... that's fine. Whatever makes them happy. I'm just saying that religion is just not my cup of tea. To me, religion is a filter between me and my God... to the next guy, religion has a completely different meaning. I am not going to try to convince anyone to follow my lead... I'm alone on this road... a road we all share. Many roads lead to God... I believe we all just need to find our own way. I just wish we would all be a little nicer to each other along our journey.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes, understanding you have different beliefs is one thing. But that was not what hippiemom said. Read her post again, carefully. And address the point.
naděje umírá poslední
by righteous i mean not only living my life so as not to intentionally do wrong or harm to others, but also by doing good for others.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"There are around a hundred Prophecies in the Old Testament that are commonly referred to as being fulfilled by Jesus. Each of them has been subjected to extensive examination by countless scholars and other authors, with intent to either prove or disprove the validity. Since many hundreds of books have been written on those various issues, and much of the argument in either direction seems to be reliant on the opinions of the various authors, BELIEVE has chosen not to get into those matters, but just to list the most commonly accepted ones."
I remember reading somewhere that the first stories about Jesus were the stories about his death and resurrection, which if you think about it makes perfect sense. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you will;)) that the NT was written some time after Jesus's death and resurrection.
It would be more logical to write about his death and resurrection first because it was fresh in the memory, how many people even knew about Jesus's birth? So gradually they started writing other stories as well (based on memories, stories...), they would know less about his young years and about his birth. So, the theory said, perhaps they were so impressed and convinced that Jesus was indeed the son of god (perhaps they saw his resurrection, perhaps he didn't rise from the dead at all maybe he was just a very remarkable revolutionary man, that besides the point now) that they wanted everyone to see that he was so great, that they wanted his message to be spread and accepted? It was indeed so. So what better way than to make Jesus fulfil these prophecies in those stories, they didn't have much to begin with anyway, who would even know? They knew if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies people would accept Jesus as their savior much easier.
naděje umírá poslední
It is disgusting, just like sin (from a christian persepective). There are many parallels b/t the sacrifice in the OT and Jesus death and resurrection in the NT. You need to approach it from such a way that humans are definitely more important to God than animals and the salvation of humans is what is most important to him. I'm sure you can see the symbolism of a perfect lamb being offered and having the blood shed in repentance of sin...it is quite gruesome, no doubt about it...so was Jesus death on the cross.
son i won't go there. i mean, it's just not worth all the gibberish.
"Call me Ishmael. Some years ago- never mind how long precisely- having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world." Herman Melville : Moby Dick
You're also correct in that they could have written it with the entire OT in mind and made Jesus someone he wasn't; orthodox Jews don't believe that he was the Messiah...I don't believe they challenge his existence, just his divinity.
It comes down to belief in the Bible and what it says. The Bible claims to be the inspired word of God written by men, but guided by God. Which again, is a nice claim to put in it if it's true or if you want people to follow a hoax; have the "holy book" claim to be "holy" from within. So you can again believe it to be true or you can say the authors were once again brilliant at "conning" people to believe in Christ. One of the major reasons I don't believe it's a con job is b/c of the internal validity of the Bible and b/c the authors of the NT gave up their lives for it and were killed for it. Why would they all die for a cause they would have almost certainly known was a lie? but that's a different discussion altogether.
http://www.c4israel.org/articles/english/e-i-02-2-sook-christiansinm.htm
The first paragraph here breaks it down a little bit. More than 40 million Christians living in the muslim world!
It is a different discussion, indeed, but I could think of quite a few reason, which aren't so far fetched, imo.
Phew!
naděje umírá poslední
i really don't want to open yet another can of Christianty worms in a thread that was originially not intended to be a discussion on the validity of Christian faith, but, i'd be interested in hearing some of these.
Correctamundo. And that's what we're gonna be. We're gonna be cool.
that i'd doubt anyone has ever lived by