Yes, I know exactly what you mean. But it's not the case.
but it indeed is...
Did you try this?
actually, yes. even many former atheists who come on these posts as well... we've had a few.
Is this in the bible? I never read that. I guess it's an assumption.
it's all in the bible. i mean, not the matrix thing... but everything else, yes.
Funny, that you say I have a closed mind because I don't agree with you and don't believe in the bible.
ummm... yeah, sure. i guess.
God creates the rules. You say he loves us and wants us in his paradise. If he's all-powerful I'm sure he can find away to let us in and forgive us from our sins like Jesus does but without Jesus. If he can't do that, that he isn't all powerful.
If he can, than he cares more about people worshipping him than about the people themselves.
he already found a way to let us in... but it can't be done without jesus. not because he's "all-powerful", i mean he could change it all altogether, but that would mean he'd have to change you too... you wouldn't be "collin" anymore (or whatever your real name is) you'd be a whole other being. yeah, sure he can do all this but it would mean he'd interfere with our will. i've said this before.
Yes.
okay, good. i like to hear that.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I you say so... I guess you would know, right. :rolleyes:
hahaha
Ok, I've read the bible... I guess I missed the parts where it said "sin" isn't real, that it's an illusion. Sorry about that.
you've got to fit the pieces together.... look through parrallel scriptures... read romans, ephesians, colossians, hebrews, i corinthians, ii corinthians.... and look through the parralel scriptures. it's all there.... i can show you if you'd like
also in job he says, "surely you'll keep count of my steps, but will not keep watch for my sins." because sin is a mixed up product of our own minds.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
you've got to fit the pieces together.... look through parrallel scriptures... read romans, ephesians, colossians, hebrews, i corinthians, ii corinthians.... and look through the parralel scriptures. it's all there.... i can show you if you'd like
also in job he says, "surely you'll keep count of my steps, but will not keep watch for my sins." because sin is a mixed up product of our own minds.
See, I've read the bible and I didn't get the message you got. And so many others have read the bible and didn't come to the same conclusions as you did, plenty of christians don't even agree with everything you say.
So it's all subjective, you have your interpretation and they have theirs. And I have mine. And when I read the bible, I didn't find what you are talking about, and guess what, I believed in god, I believed in the bible and in Jesus... but I didn't find that sin was an illusion and I didn't find lots of other things you claim...
See, I've read the bible and I didn't get the message you got. And so many others have read the bible and didn't come to the same conclusions as you did, plenty of christians don't even agree with everything you say.
So it's all subjective, you have your interpretation and they have theirs. And I have mine. And when I read the bible, I didn't find what you are talking about, and guess what, I believed in god, I believed in the bible and in Jesus... but I didn't find that sin was an illusion and I didn't find lots of other things you claim...
i understand.... it's just one of those things, you know. everybody's got answers, explanations or opinions.... it's all fine with me.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i am an atheist. i don't believe in a God cause it makes absolutely no sense to me. this has been the case since i was 11 years old. religion does not give me the answers i require.
Depends what you mean by 'God'. The word itself is meaningless.
that's the way he made them, that's the way it's gonna be.
exactly. things are the way they are becos god MADE them that way. jesus is the ONLY way to salvation becos that is the way god wanted it. and i happen to think it's shitty to offer one way out that you know 80% of the people of this world will miss, most despite the best intentions of developing a relationship with god. god COULD have made them a different way. he didn't. our choices decide whether or not we get into heaven. his choices decide what we have to do to get into heaven.
yes, only jesus my friend. because jesus as a single human being like you and i achieved a perfect life for us. what much more do you want him to do? jesus! he gave you a perfect life!
i thought our lives were all corrupt and decaying?
i can't answer it?????? what the hell do you think i've been doing staying up at 3 or 4 am answering your questions. GEEZ at least give me that much...
but you answered it yourself.... buddha never died on a cross and resurrected from the dead!
God didn't decide and make how we as humans and individuals operate or respond to certain things in life! that happens entirely by our own choice... and i've agreed God has no power over this. tell me, from your understanding and your logic, if God is all-powerful does he decide when i scratch my balls? or when i fart? geez... man, just cause he's all-powerful and all-knowing doesn't mean he's planned every single event in the face of human history.
becos you answer the wrong question every time. every single time.
Q: "why does jesus have to be the only way? why did god decide jesus was the only path to heaven?"
A: "cos humans are evil and they chose to be sinful and it's their choice."
that does NOT answer the question. you're telling me how to get to heaven, im asking why it has to be that way. you don't know. you say even the bible is vague on that point. i think it's cos god, if he is as you describe him, is a dick.
he already found a way to let us in... but it can't be done without jesus. not because he's "all-powerful", i mean he could change it all altogether, but that would mean he'd have to change you too... you wouldn't be "collin" anymore (or whatever your real name is) you'd be a whole other being. yeah, sure he can do all this but it would mean he'd interfere with our will. i've said this before.
okay, good. i like to hear that.
bullshit. no he doesn't. you just say "ok, instead of accepting jesus, i'll start accepting buddha, allah, vishnu, and the mother spirit as well. line forms to the left."
Q: "why does jesus have to be the only way? why did god decide jesus was the only path to heaven?"
A: "cos humans are evil and they chose to be sinful and it's their choice."
that does NOT answer the question. you're telling me how to get to heaven, im asking why it has to be that way. you don't know. you say even the bible is vague on that point. i think it's cos god, if he is as you describe him, is a dick.
Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out. Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...
Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.
Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
The more I read about the christian god here, the more I think he's a jerk.
1) He creates us and loved us, supposedly, unconditionally.
2) He creates evil (because he is the creator of everything)
3) He gives us free will and knows we'll choose evil, that's how he made us.
4) Then because we choose evil (which he created and which he knew we would choose) we messed up. Messed up according to his rules, which he could change.
5) He sends Jesus to save us yet he knows only about 25% of the people will get into heaven.
6) The other 75% of his children, whom he loves so much, will have to go to hell, because they chose that road (tell that to the people who dedicated their life to god except their god was named Allah and Jesus was just a prophet)
For an all-powerful god whose love is infinite, that's pretty weak.
I'm thinking about a mother here with 6 children, she puts some freshly baked cookies on the table, tells the kids they cannot eat them. And she goes away or hides in the closet whatever. Then when all her kids eat the cookies, she kicks them out of her house.
Then she sends a dude to tell the kids to follow him and obey all these rules and then they will be let inside the house again, but at the same time about 5 other guys are telling a very similar story. Only two of the children pick the right guy. Then at the front door, she sees one of them has been naughty and kicks him out, but she lets the other one back into the house.
Not exactly what I'd call "love" but that's god simplified. This is child neglect and abuse, I think.
That isn't really it at all, IMO.
God, as i see it, didn't "create evil" in the way that you make it sound. He instilled humanity, brilliantly, with free-will, the ability to make decisions. With free-will, not necessarily evil, but, the POSSIBILITY of evil, is inevitable. Furthermore, the POSSIBILITY of evil is not only inevitable, but ESSENTIAL for the opposite, righteousness, to exist and have any meaning and value whatsoever. Without the possibility of evil, there can be no rightiousness! Without hate, there can be no love! Without bad, there can be no good and without wrong, there can be no right! Seen? If hatred is not an option, then love means absolutely dick. It means nothing, for example, for my wife, children, and friends to love me, if it were impossible to feel and treat me otherwise. The way it stands, when my four year old hugs me and says "i love you daddy", it feels good. It has meaning and value because, its possible he COULD hate me instead. My friends don't have to appreciate me and desire to hang out with me and watch my back, so, when they do, it actually MEANS something. What good would it do me if my wife loved me because it was the only possibilty? What joy would i get from that? What would it mean if i loved, because i had no other options? Wrap your head around that for a second or two.
Your analogy suggests that God mean spiritedly places desireable bad things in our path (represented in your analogy by none other than a harmless plate of cookies) and then beats us, or punishes us in some cruel and unusual manner for taking what amounts to nothing more than "bait". No. That isn't it.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
That isn't really it at all, IMO.
God, as i see it, didn't "create evil" in the way that you make it sound. He instilled humanity, brilliantly, with free-will, the ability to make decisions. With free-will, not necessarily evil, but, the POSSIBILITY of evil, is inevitable. Furthermore, the POSSIBILITY of evil is not only inevitable, but ESSENTIAL for the opposite, righteousness, to exist and have any meaning and value whatsoever. Without the possibility of evil, there can be no rightiousness! Without hate, there can be no love! Without bad, there can be no good and without wrong, there can be no right! Seen? If hatred is not an option, then love means absolutely dick. It means nothing, for example, for my wife, children, and friends to love me, if it were impossible to feel and treat me otherwise. The way it stands, when my four year old hugs me and says "i love you daddy", it feels good. It has meaning and value because, its possible he COULD hate me instead. My friends don't have to appreciate me and desire to hang out with me and watch my back, so, when they do, it actually MEANS something. What good would it do me if my wife loved me because it was the only possibilty? What joy would i get from that? What would it mean if i loved, because i had no other options? Wrap your head around that for a second or two.
Your analogy suggests that God mean spiritedly places desireable bad things in our path (represented in your analogy by none other than a harmless plate of cookies) and then beats us, or punishes us in some cruel and unusual manner for taking what amounts to nothing more than "bait". No. That isn't it.
I totally see what you mean. About the love-hate thing. So god had to create the possibility of evil, or else there would or could not be 'good'.
But maybe that also means there have to be people who don't believe in god, or even hate god... or else what would your belief and your devotion mean? So god must have thought about that, must have forseen heathens and godless folks like me in his plan, because if he didn't, the devotion and faith of believers would be void of meaning, right? Or am I missing something?
I totally see what you mean. About the love-hate thing. So god had to create the possibility of evil, or else there would or could not be 'good'.
But maybe that also means there have to be people who don't believe in god, or even hate god... or else what would your belief and your devotion mean? So god must have thought about that, must have forseen heathens and godless folks like me in his plan, because if he didn't, the devotion and faith of believers would be void of meaning, right? Or am I missing something?
There doesn't HAVE to be individuals who do not acknowledge, or even hate, God, but, yes, in order for faith, love, and devotion to have meaning, it needs to be an unfortunate option or possibility. Forceful coercion of love is not truly love and has no real value.
If everyone in the universe admired, respected and loved me, i would have no problem with that. It would be great. As long as they had other options. It wouldn't lose meaning and value until their love and admiraton was the only option and possibility. Seen?
God doesn't need some to doubt him to give value to those who believe, but, it needs to be an option. Its an option we have.
The POSSIBILITY OF hatred, anger, cruelty, etc., are simply natural, in fact, necessary byproducts of free-will.
Nobody, certainly not me, enjoys feeling sad, but if i never did, how would i truly appreciate, enjoy, or even recognize the wonderful feeling of happiness?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
exactly. things are the way they are becos god MADE them that way. jesus is the ONLY way to salvation becos that is the way god wanted it. and i happen to think it's shitty to offer one way out that you know 80% of the people of this world will miss, most despite the best intentions of developing a relationship with god. god COULD have made them a different way. he didn't. our choices decide whether or not we get into heaven. his choices decide what we have to do to get into heaven.
yeah, sure, god could've decided another way to get to heaven. just like in the old testament.... in hebrews it says, "god who in times past spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders..." meaning, God tried in a whole lotta billion different ways to change men's hearts.... but it didn't work. God can't force somebody to believe in him. plain and simple. you have a hard time understanding that. because you say that he's all-knowing and all-powerful. beats me.
i thought our lives were all corrupt and decaying?
they are.... what i was trying to say was that jesus gave you a perfect life.... meaning, he achieved the good life for you.
becos you answer the wrong question every time. every single time.
because i answer the wrong question??? or because i give the wrong answer???
Q: "why does jesus have to be the only way? why did god decide jesus was the only path to heaven?"
A: "cos humans are evil and they chose to be sinful and it's their choice."
that does NOT answer the question. you're telling me how to get to heaven, im asking why it has to be that way. you don't know. you say even the bible is vague on that point. i think it's cos god, if he is as you describe him, is a dick.
you've got it all wrong. i've answered that question a bazillion-katrillion times.
God decided that jesus would be the only path so he could make our salvation legitimate.... because in this life that you and i are in today, we are being held like hostages through the powers of "sin and death". all because of that one dude adam who had sinned... we received by nature his penalty, which is death.
kinda like the africans.... they had children who were born into slavery.... it wasn't the children's fault that they were slaves. so are we born into this slavery.
God through his goodness tells the devil, "ok, i'm going to play your little game. you think that righteousness cannot be accomplished? i will show you that a single human being can achieve righteousness. and then i will take back humanity from you."
Hebrews 2:9,14-15 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.... Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same [flesh and blood]; that through death he might destroy him that had the power, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
bullshit. no he doesn't. you just say "ok, instead of accepting jesus, i'll start accepting buddha, allah, vishnu, and the mother spirit as well. line forms to the left."
changes no one.
i'm not following you clearly.
but what i can gather, i guess you're saying that buddha, allah (which actually means god, it's all the same god, same god of abraham, same god of isaac, just so you know) vishnu, or krishna, or john lennon, or mother theresa, or ghandi are fellas that can lead me to salvation. or that maybe god can forgive us for thinking that they lead to salvation.
well, like i said before, biblically speaking it doesn't work that way because these fellas didn't rescue us from death.... that is to say they didn't resurrect from the dead so that we too could participate in that gift. in other words, our salvation wouldn't be legitimate... we'd still have the inheritance of adam.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out..
which is what i've been saying and deadnothing has been denying for page upon page. nice to see a christian willing to be honest and forthright instead of dodging the question and playing semantics.
Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...
Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.
Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.
this looks like a real, legit answer to the questions i've been asking. ill look forward to reading it when i get home later.
but what i can gather, i guess you're saying that buddha, allah (which actually means god, it's all the same god, same god of abraham, same god of isaac, just so you know) vishnu, or krishna, or john lennon, or mother theresa, or ghandi are fellas that can lead me to salvation. or that maybe god can forgive us for thinking that they lead to salvation.
well, like i said before, biblically speaking it doesn't work that way because these fellas didn't rescue us from death.... that is to say they didn't resurrect from the dead so that we too could participate in that gift. in other words, our salvation wouldn't be legitimate... we'd still have the inheritance of adam.
im saying that if god wanted to, he could allow faith in them to cleanse us of sin and rescue us from death and bring us to salvation. but god decided only jesus could do so.
this is the closest i've seen you come to a real answer. i see some logic in the "breaking the chains of death thing" for why jesus is different. but i'm not entirely convinced that should be a necessary condition for an all-powerful god. it's my chief problem with christianity... god is too human and even if you can extract a coherent logic from the bible, it is as full of technicalities as human legal systems. that doesn't jive with my concept of god. i think i'm beginning to see your logic, and maybe (accepting what you say as true) god isn't an asshole, but he still seems overly fond of bewildering and random rule-making.
yeah, sure, god could've decided another way to get to heaven. just like in the old testament.... in hebrews it says, "god who in times past spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders..." meaning, God tried in a whole lotta billion different ways to change men's hearts.... but it didn't work. God can't force somebody to believe in him. plain and simple. you have a hard time understanding that. because you say that he's all-knowing and all-powerful. beats me.
im not at all having a hard time with that. how many times have i said the issue is not god forcing someone to believe? my point was billions of people DO believe without force, but will still go to hell. becos, as you acknowledge, god decided there was only one way to heaven... jesus.
now, im no god, but it seems to me that if you're having a tough time getting through to people, your best bet to reach them is to be open to who they are and how they express their belief, rather than restricting their options to only one. seems to me if god loved us, he would accept us for who we are and allow our devotion to take whatever form comes most naturally to us as long as it is directed to him (whatever name you call him by). he could arrange it to allow us to break the bonds of death and satan through our worship of buddha just as easily as jesus if he wanted... becos he is god. but he chose jesus and only jesus. maybe it's not outright vain and cruel, but it's a far cry from loving acceptance and forgiveness.
Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out. Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...
Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.
Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.
i can see this in terms of consistency with old testament law and christian theology. but that almost reinforces my case becos it backs up the god of the old testament... a very vain and petty good who loves to play favorites (with his chosen people) and whatnot. it offers a sensible explanation of god honoring his past covenant with the jews, but what about non-jews? does god not love them? it seems rather cruel to bind the entire world to promises he made only to a select few of his favorites. he might offer salvation to anyone through jesus, but it's still on the jews' terms.
i can see this in terms of consistency with old testament law and christian theology. but that almost reinforces my case becos it backs up the god of the old testament... a very vain and petty good who loves to play favorites (with his chosen people) and whatnot. it offers a sensible explanation of god honoring his past covenant with the jews, but what about non-jews? does god not love them? it seems rather cruel to bind the entire world to promises he made only to a select few of his favorites. he might offer salvation to anyone through jesus, but it's still on the jews' terms.
I think the symbolism of the cross and jesus is that after Jesus died the opportunity is available to jew and gentile. He does have his so called chosen people, but he extended the opportunity for salvation to all. It would somewhat agree with your def of a vain and petty god (God is admittedly a jealous God (per OT)) but as soon as the salvation opportunity was made open to everyone he becomes all inviting. The bible says God wishes that none would perish, and since we haven't chatted face to face, I'll have to take him at his word. There are those that b/c of that verse feel that there is universal salvation; and there are others who don't feel that way chiefly b/c of "I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but through me". I found a book, as i posted somewhere in here earlier, called the difficult doctrine of love...your university may have it (i'm sure as a law student you have all sorts of time to read extra books ) I hope this helps somewhat.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
which is what i've been saying and deadnothing has been denying for page upon page. nice to see a christian willing to be honest and forthright instead of dodging the question and playing semantics.
i never denied that. i never denied that jesus had to be the only way.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
im saying that if god wanted to, he could allow faith in them to cleanse us of sin and rescue us from death and bring us to salvation. but god decided only jesus could do so.
this is the closest i've seen you come to a real answer. i see some logic in the "breaking the chains of death thing" for why jesus is different. but i'm not entirely convinced that should be a necessary condition for an all-powerful god. it's my chief problem with christianity... god is too human and even if you can extract a coherent logic from the bible, it is as full of technicalities as human legal systems. that doesn't jive with my concept of god. i think i'm beginning to see your logic, and maybe (accepting what you say as true) god isn't an asshole, but he still seems overly fond of bewildering and random rule-making.
maybe you just have a hard time believing that jesus actually achieved a pure life. if you believe that, you wouldn't have a hard time believing that God's justice is fair.
however, i thought i did mention that jesus achieved a perfect life and died on the cross and rose from the grave somewhere on there... all well. sorry if i didn't.
i know you'll probably live out the rest of your life believing that the biblical God is vain, petty and arbitrary and i'll never try to restrict you from believing it. the bible itself says that there are people who curse God's judgements and Paul speaks on numerous occasions that God's justice is like foolishness to men. so i won't deny it from you.
the main reason why God did it this way through Jesus was because he wanted to show and prove that humans are capable of living a perfect life, because that's what he created them for. his bewildering and random rule-making came with the whole mix up with the israelites and all... but now it's all basically it's all just about faith, hope and love... and all those things point to jesus. well, at least it does in the bible.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
im not at all having a hard time with that. how many times have i said the issue is not god forcing someone to believe? my point was billions of people DO believe without force, but will still go to hell. becos, as you acknowledge, god decided there was only one way to heaven... jesus.
now, im no god, but it seems to me that if you're having a tough time getting through to people, your best bet to reach them is to be open to who they are and how they express their belief, rather than restricting their options to only one. seems to me if god loved us, he would accept us for who we are and allow our devotion to take whatever form comes most naturally to us as long as it is directed to him (whatever name you call him by). he could arrange it to allow us to break the bonds of death and satan through our worship of buddha just as easily as jesus if he wanted... becos he is god. but he chose jesus and only jesus. maybe it's not outright vain and cruel, but it's a far cry from loving acceptance and forgiveness.
well, how cool that would be if God didn't just have only one begotten son. it would be cool if buddha too was god's begotten son that was raised from the dead just as well. yeah, i would agree. but unfortunately the bible doesn't give us that option. is God cruel for setting it up that way? i don't think so. i have my personal beliefs, but it would mean for me to go much deeper into this particular discussion and i don't want to get into the theology of it.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Comments
actually, yes. even many former atheists who come on these posts as well... we've had a few.
it's all in the bible. i mean, not the matrix thing... but everything else, yes.
ummm... yeah, sure. i guess.
he already found a way to let us in... but it can't be done without jesus. not because he's "all-powerful", i mean he could change it all altogether, but that would mean he'd have to change you too... you wouldn't be "collin" anymore (or whatever your real name is) you'd be a whole other being. yeah, sure he can do all this but it would mean he'd interfere with our will. i've said this before.
okay, good. i like to hear that.
I you say so... I guess you would know, right. :rolleyes:
Ok, I've read the bible... I guess I missed the parts where it said "sin" isn't real, that it's an illusion. Sorry about that.
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you've got to fit the pieces together.... look through parrallel scriptures... read romans, ephesians, colossians, hebrews, i corinthians, ii corinthians.... and look through the parralel scriptures. it's all there.... i can show you if you'd like
also in job he says, "surely you'll keep count of my steps, but will not keep watch for my sins." because sin is a mixed up product of our own minds.
See, I've read the bible and I didn't get the message you got. And so many others have read the bible and didn't come to the same conclusions as you did, plenty of christians don't even agree with everything you say.
So it's all subjective, you have your interpretation and they have theirs. And I have mine. And when I read the bible, I didn't find what you are talking about, and guess what, I believed in god, I believed in the bible and in Jesus... but I didn't find that sin was an illusion and I didn't find lots of other things you claim...
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Depends what you mean by 'God'. The word itself is meaningless.
in all ways, it's meaningless to me.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
exactly. things are the way they are becos god MADE them that way. jesus is the ONLY way to salvation becos that is the way god wanted it. and i happen to think it's shitty to offer one way out that you know 80% of the people of this world will miss, most despite the best intentions of developing a relationship with god. god COULD have made them a different way. he didn't. our choices decide whether or not we get into heaven. his choices decide what we have to do to get into heaven.
i thought our lives were all corrupt and decaying?
becos you answer the wrong question every time. every single time.
Q: "why does jesus have to be the only way? why did god decide jesus was the only path to heaven?"
A: "cos humans are evil and they chose to be sinful and it's their choice."
that does NOT answer the question. you're telling me how to get to heaven, im asking why it has to be that way. you don't know. you say even the bible is vague on that point. i think it's cos god, if he is as you describe him, is a dick.
bullshit. no he doesn't. you just say "ok, instead of accepting jesus, i'll start accepting buddha, allah, vishnu, and the mother spirit as well. line forms to the left."
changes no one.
Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out. Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...
Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.
Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.
That isn't really it at all, IMO.
God, as i see it, didn't "create evil" in the way that you make it sound. He instilled humanity, brilliantly, with free-will, the ability to make decisions. With free-will, not necessarily evil, but, the POSSIBILITY of evil, is inevitable. Furthermore, the POSSIBILITY of evil is not only inevitable, but ESSENTIAL for the opposite, righteousness, to exist and have any meaning and value whatsoever. Without the possibility of evil, there can be no rightiousness! Without hate, there can be no love! Without bad, there can be no good and without wrong, there can be no right! Seen? If hatred is not an option, then love means absolutely dick. It means nothing, for example, for my wife, children, and friends to love me, if it were impossible to feel and treat me otherwise. The way it stands, when my four year old hugs me and says "i love you daddy", it feels good. It has meaning and value because, its possible he COULD hate me instead. My friends don't have to appreciate me and desire to hang out with me and watch my back, so, when they do, it actually MEANS something. What good would it do me if my wife loved me because it was the only possibilty? What joy would i get from that? What would it mean if i loved, because i had no other options? Wrap your head around that for a second or two.
Your analogy suggests that God mean spiritedly places desireable bad things in our path (represented in your analogy by none other than a harmless plate of cookies) and then beats us, or punishes us in some cruel and unusual manner for taking what amounts to nothing more than "bait". No. That isn't it.
I totally see what you mean. About the love-hate thing. So god had to create the possibility of evil, or else there would or could not be 'good'.
But maybe that also means there have to be people who don't believe in god, or even hate god... or else what would your belief and your devotion mean? So god must have thought about that, must have forseen heathens and godless folks like me in his plan, because if he didn't, the devotion and faith of believers would be void of meaning, right? Or am I missing something?
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There doesn't HAVE to be individuals who do not acknowledge, or even hate, God, but, yes, in order for faith, love, and devotion to have meaning, it needs to be an unfortunate option or possibility. Forceful coercion of love is not truly love and has no real value.
If everyone in the universe admired, respected and loved me, i would have no problem with that. It would be great. As long as they had other options. It wouldn't lose meaning and value until their love and admiraton was the only option and possibility. Seen?
God doesn't need some to doubt him to give value to those who believe, but, it needs to be an option. Its an option we have.
The POSSIBILITY OF hatred, anger, cruelty, etc., are simply natural, in fact, necessary byproducts of free-will.
Nobody, certainly not me, enjoys feeling sad, but if i never did, how would i truly appreciate, enjoy, or even recognize the wonderful feeling of happiness?
they are.... what i was trying to say was that jesus gave you a perfect life.... meaning, he achieved the good life for you.
because i answer the wrong question??? or because i give the wrong answer???
you've got it all wrong. i've answered that question a bazillion-katrillion times.
God decided that jesus would be the only path so he could make our salvation legitimate.... because in this life that you and i are in today, we are being held like hostages through the powers of "sin and death". all because of that one dude adam who had sinned... we received by nature his penalty, which is death.
kinda like the africans.... they had children who were born into slavery.... it wasn't the children's fault that they were slaves. so are we born into this slavery.
God through his goodness tells the devil, "ok, i'm going to play your little game. you think that righteousness cannot be accomplished? i will show you that a single human being can achieve righteousness. and then i will take back humanity from you."
Hebrews 2:9,14-15 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.... Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same [flesh and blood]; that through death he might destroy him that had the power, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
but what i can gather, i guess you're saying that buddha, allah (which actually means god, it's all the same god, same god of abraham, same god of isaac, just so you know) vishnu, or krishna, or john lennon, or mother theresa, or ghandi are fellas that can lead me to salvation. or that maybe god can forgive us for thinking that they lead to salvation.
well, like i said before, biblically speaking it doesn't work that way because these fellas didn't rescue us from death.... that is to say they didn't resurrect from the dead so that we too could participate in that gift. in other words, our salvation wouldn't be legitimate... we'd still have the inheritance of adam.
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Its as simple as not reading it.
It's here. I surf. I comment. I'm a farm-friendly guy.
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Now three times.
I like threes.
Trinity.
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Now I know why Jesus wept.
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which is what i've been saying and deadnothing has been denying for page upon page. nice to see a christian willing to be honest and forthright instead of dodging the question and playing semantics.
this looks like a real, legit answer to the questions i've been asking. ill look forward to reading it when i get home later.
im saying that if god wanted to, he could allow faith in them to cleanse us of sin and rescue us from death and bring us to salvation. but god decided only jesus could do so.
this is the closest i've seen you come to a real answer. i see some logic in the "breaking the chains of death thing" for why jesus is different. but i'm not entirely convinced that should be a necessary condition for an all-powerful god. it's my chief problem with christianity... god is too human and even if you can extract a coherent logic from the bible, it is as full of technicalities as human legal systems. that doesn't jive with my concept of god. i think i'm beginning to see your logic, and maybe (accepting what you say as true) god isn't an asshole, but he still seems overly fond of bewildering and random rule-making.
im not at all having a hard time with that. how many times have i said the issue is not god forcing someone to believe? my point was billions of people DO believe without force, but will still go to hell. becos, as you acknowledge, god decided there was only one way to heaven... jesus.
now, im no god, but it seems to me that if you're having a tough time getting through to people, your best bet to reach them is to be open to who they are and how they express their belief, rather than restricting their options to only one. seems to me if god loved us, he would accept us for who we are and allow our devotion to take whatever form comes most naturally to us as long as it is directed to him (whatever name you call him by). he could arrange it to allow us to break the bonds of death and satan through our worship of buddha just as easily as jesus if he wanted... becos he is god. but he chose jesus and only jesus. maybe it's not outright vain and cruel, but it's a far cry from loving acceptance and forgiveness.
i can see this in terms of consistency with old testament law and christian theology. but that almost reinforces my case becos it backs up the god of the old testament... a very vain and petty good who loves to play favorites (with his chosen people) and whatnot. it offers a sensible explanation of god honoring his past covenant with the jews, but what about non-jews? does god not love them? it seems rather cruel to bind the entire world to promises he made only to a select few of his favorites. he might offer salvation to anyone through jesus, but it's still on the jews' terms.
I think the symbolism of the cross and jesus is that after Jesus died the opportunity is available to jew and gentile. He does have his so called chosen people, but he extended the opportunity for salvation to all. It would somewhat agree with your def of a vain and petty god (God is admittedly a jealous God (per OT)) but as soon as the salvation opportunity was made open to everyone he becomes all inviting. The bible says God wishes that none would perish, and since we haven't chatted face to face, I'll have to take him at his word. There are those that b/c of that verse feel that there is universal salvation; and there are others who don't feel that way chiefly b/c of "I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but through me". I found a book, as i posted somewhere in here earlier, called the difficult doctrine of love...your university may have it (i'm sure as a law student you have all sorts of time to read extra books
however, i thought i did mention that jesus achieved a perfect life and died on the cross and rose from the grave somewhere on there... all well. sorry if i didn't.
i know you'll probably live out the rest of your life believing that the biblical God is vain, petty and arbitrary and i'll never try to restrict you from believing it. the bible itself says that there are people who curse God's judgements and Paul speaks on numerous occasions that God's justice is like foolishness to men. so i won't deny it from you.
the main reason why God did it this way through Jesus was because he wanted to show and prove that humans are capable of living a perfect life, because that's what he created them for. his bewildering and random rule-making came with the whole mix up with the israelites and all... but now it's all basically it's all just about faith, hope and love... and all those things point to jesus. well, at least it does in the bible.