why do you believe in God or...

catefrances

Nothingman54 wrote:

The answers you require you may never get. We all have questions and want answers but I beileve we will find those answers when we die. When I walk outside and smell the air and think how everything is set up so perfect, sunrise, sunset, trees, water, birth, life, people, I know there is a God. I dont need answers right now cause I know one day I will get them.

yes, that is a distinct possibility. i think mainly that what i seek is peace. how i attain that i do not know. i am looking and it may take the rest of life. it may not even happen at all. i need to find peace within myself. that's my goal. and my journey.

see where you walk outside and attribute the perfect world to God, i do not.

Nothingman54

catefrances wrote:

yes, that is a distinct possibility. i think mainly that what i seek is peace. how i attain that i do not know. i am looking and it may take the rest of life. it may not even happen at all. i need to find peace within myself. that's my goal. and my journey.

see where you walk outside and attribute the perfect world to God, i do not.

When you say "see where you walk outside and attribute the perfect world to God, i do not" what do you mean? I dont think the world is perfect in a sense that life is perfect. When I walk outside and look beyound the houses,cars,all the crayness in the world and I see life that was created for a reason and what that reason is I dont know, but I know we are all apart of something so much more bigger than us, a plan, I dont know what, but I can feel it. Bad things happen to people all the time and many question God or whatever and wonder why he would let something bad happen, but things happen for a reason and in the end we are all alot more stronger. Im not preaching. Im not perfect, if God came right now I would burn in hell for sure. Its just what I believe. I try to live day to day being a nice person and doing the best I can but I sin all the time and we all do. I found peace with myself a long time ago and I hope you do the same. I think before you can move on thats what you need to do.

deadnothingbetter

brokendave wrote:

What are we even talking about? Let me clarify so everyone doesn't waste their time here...

1. I believe in freedom of religion, so believe in a flying spaghetti monster if you want to, I don't care.

2. I have a problem with people imposing their beliefs on me via social and political constructs. If I have to discourage religion to do so, then I will. It seems there is no other way, since you middle of the road Christians won't instill any sense into the "red letter Christians" and then "moral majority"...

3. When I do discourage religion, it will be on the basis of how ridiculous and obvious of a farce it really is. Christianity teaches poor morals when compared to the evolution of societies morals. There is no reason to follow it at all... unless you are afraid to burn forever in a lake of fire, or if you need a big comfy cushion to catch you when you fuck up.

that is my 2 cents for the day... i'm done with all this god talk.

i think you're confused more than anyone else on here....

1. believing in a spaghetti monster... ok, sure will... but i'm not talking about different religions here...

2. i'm not imposing my beliefs on you in any way

3. ok, sounds good to me...

you're avoiding the whole topic altogether... i'm only talking about the one scripture you mentioned... it's all. i'm only saying that the scripture isn't even in reference to actually slaying "unbelievers" you took it completely out of context. allbeit, everything else you said is irrelevant to the conversation

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

now you're changing your argument.... and even still, you got it wrong.

not in the least. my point has always been that a god who is going to damn the vast majority of the world's good people for picking the wrong church is an asshole god.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the whole idea is so easy... you said, "ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway..." well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus? c'mon dude... it's like you're trying to argue with me by using my own weapon...

i have the bible. some people don't. some people have never and will never see a bible and don't know it exists. what about them? i also have the koran and the bahavad gita. what is there to convince me the former is so superior to both of the latter and why is god so utterly merciless and vain that he is completely incapable of ever forgiving that mistake?

deadnothingbetter wrote:

you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same.

no, it's not a fact. it's a subjective viewpoint based on your previously established worldview. i see nothing sad or imperfect about this world. im quite happy to be here and think this is a beautiful miracle i've been blessed to receive. im sorry to hear you find it such a miserable state of being.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is. today you have topics about global warming and all... the bible said, "subdue the earth and multiply". sounds to me like God gave us a job to take care of this earth but we're not doing a good job of it. it's not God's fault... it's ours. God has given us the ability to live a good and perfect life but we don't do it because of our own unbelief. if only we believe like Christ lived then we can make this better. at least, that's what the bible promises. i'm not guaranteeing that but that's the message of the bible.

again and again and again and again i tell you... it wasn't God who said, "ughhh you little shitty beings of you.... here eat shit and die... don't worry that's how i show my love to you."

no, but it was god who decided, in your religion, that nobody could ever be forgiven for worshipping the wrong way or failing to worship a guy (jesus) they might never have even heard of.

deadnothingbetter wrote:

that's basically all i'm saying... you could agree with me and say, "yes miguel you're absolutely right. that's the message of the bible, but i just don't believe it." and if that's the case then i'm okay with it.

the bible has answers to all these questions, even yours, only if you take the time and read it. my only point is, you're not gonna win this argument... no matter how hard you try

i'm well aware of what the bible's message is. and im saying that a god that operates by that message is a douchebag. and that is my belief. there is nothing loving about it.

ive read the bible.

and i've already won.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.

and if your kids as teens told you they hated you and all you stood for and were going to go join a cult, and then died in that cult, would you forgive them for it, or hold it against them for all of eternity?

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

and if your kids as teens told you they hated you and all you stood for and were going to go join a cult, and then died in that cult, would you forgive them for it, or hold it against them for all of eternity?

i would be absolutely grief stricken. Heartbroken. i would still love them. They would still be dead by their own course of action.
Not sure what point your trying to make here. Actually, i think i see the point your TRYING to make, it just doesn't work.

catefrances

Nothingman54 wrote:

When you say "see where you walk outside and attribute the perfect world to God, i do not" what do you mean? I dont think the world is perfect in a sense that life is perfect. When I walk outside and look beyound the houses,cars,all the crayness in the world and I see life that was created for a reason and what that reason is I dont know, but I know we are all apart of something so much more bigger than us, a plan, I dont know what, but I can feel it. Bad things happen to people all the time and many question God or whatever and wonder why he would let something bad happen, but things happen for a reason and in the end we are all alot more stronger. Im not preaching. Im not perfect, if God came right now I would burn in hell for sure. Its just what I believe. I try to live day to day being a nice person and doing the best I can but I sin all the time and we all do. I found peace with myself a long time ago and I hope you do the same. I think before you can move on thats what you need to do.

Nothingman54 wrote:

The answers you require you may never get. We all have questions and want answers but I beileve we will find those answers when we die. When I walk outside and smell the air and think how everything is set up so perfect, sunrise, sunset, trees, water, birth, life, people, I know there is a God. I dont need answers right now cause I know one day I will get them.

this is what my issue was. i do not attribute this world to a God. yes this world is perfect. man is not.

and as i said it may take my entire life to find peace. i may die without ever finding it. but i will continue to seek it. i will stumble, i know that. i am in the middle of a stumble right now. but that is my journey.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

not in the least. my point has always been that a god who is going to damn the vast majority of the world's good people for picking the wrong church is an asshole god.

well, okay, that's your opinion... if he's an asshole god to you then so he is... i'm not going to try and change that for you. but the least you can say is that your interpretations of this biblical god are completely off the mark. you said that he condemns you because you don't accept jesus. i'm telling you we condemned ourselves prior to even denying jesus... in biblical context, yes indeed my friend... no matter how you twist it, that's how the story goes.

i have the bible. some people don't. some people have never and will never see a bible and don't know it exists. what about them? i also have the koran and the bahavad gita. what is there to convince me the former is so superior to both of the latter and why is god so utterly merciless and vain that he is completely incapable of ever forgiving that mistake?

i get your point, but you're missing mine completely. edit: (i forgot to address this completely) the bible also says, "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:19,20 if you have issues with that scripture, their your own completely... i'm going to stress the importance that i got no business on that matter... that's all i know.

no, it's not a fact. it's a subjective viewpoint based on your previously established worldview. i see nothing sad or imperfect about this world. im quite happy to be here and think this is a beautiful miracle i've been blessed to receive. im sorry to hear you find it such a miserable state of being.

wow, so you'll never get sick and die? you don't have problems? financial? emotional?

although, i find this world to be a beatiful place to... aside that fact, there's a lot of sad things... c'mon you know it's true too...

no, but it was god who decided, in your religion, that nobody could ever be forgiven for worshipping the wrong way or failing to worship a guy (jesus) they might never have even heard of.

again, no, it wasn't god who decided it this way, "in my religion", at least. you got it wrong. god used jesus as another alternative to save humanity... god never intruded in humanity's will so he tried many ways by giving humans a choice a way to salvation. christ was the ultimate and last alternative. do you see what i'm saying? it's very different from what you say... true, salvation is only found in jesus christ... i'm not denying that... what i'm saying is that god didn't plan it to be this way... based on our choices we made, it led god to find a way to regain humanity. if you think god is still an "asshole" for being taht way... well, i guess... you must know a better way to save humanity, dontcha?

i'm well aware of what the bible's message is.

you might wanna rethink that.

and im saying that a god that operates by that message is a douchebag. and that is my belief. there is nothing loving about it.

what message? you're not even portraying the biblical message the right way.

ive read the bible.

and i've already won.

you're far from winning... i won it a long time ago.

kenny olav

Ahnimus wrote:

Is there a God? Like Spinoza's God, a Grand Architect?

Spinoza's God is the only god that makes sense to me, from what I've read. I'm agnostic. I see no reason to believe in any of the gods of religion, but there may be some kind of driving force behind life and behind the laws of physics. It's very puzzling to think that the universe exists for no reason.

deadnothingbetter

Kenny Olav wrote:

Spinoza's God is the only god that makes sense to me, from what I've read. I'm agnostic. I see no reason to believe in any of the gods of religion, but there may be some kind of driving force behind life and behind the laws of physics. It's very puzzling to think that the universe exists for no reason.

who's spinoza?

Collin

chopitdown wrote:

cool. The thing that bothers me is the context issue. People take a lot of things out of context in an effort to show some problem they have with the Bible. I can handle it if people just dont' want to believe, but when they try to use something out of context to make their point and show how simple minded Christians are it really bothers me.

See, I have the same problem with Christians (and other religious people). They too rip verses out of the bible without context to prove their points, to tell people what's right and what's wrong. It goes both ways.

I went to two funerals in the last two weeks. Both the priests told how the deceased were now with god, in a better place. And he read verses of the bible to support this claim.
I am supposed to believe all these people are getting into heaven, god told the priest or something? I think in most religions god is the judge of that and I'm pretty sure that the bible and most holy books have verses saying exactly that.

Sure, it wouldn't have been very nice and respectful to say they might as well be sent to hell to rot in eternity but that's part of the religion as well. Why omit that part? These priests are lying! They have no way of knowing if god will accept them in heaven.

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

What's up with that?

It also surprises me that you use the term "want to believe". Did you just say one day "hey, this religion and faith stuff is pretty neat, I want that too, I want to believe."

I often hear people say their path to "enlightenment" was a long and hard struggle with lots of doubts and what not. That upon studying this or that religion or faith closer and more thoroughly, they found that it was the truth (for them) and the right path.

Do you think atheists just one day say "I don't want to believe." ?

catefrances

Collin wrote:

Do you think atheists just one day say "I don't want to believe." ?

when i was 11 and i asked my catholic priest for some answers, he booted me out of class. here was his opportunity to bring a child into God's good grace and he blew it big time. i'm not saying brother john would have convinced me of God's existence but he could have at least taken the time to sell the big man better, rather than dismissing my child curiosity.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

who's spinoza?

Read Spinoza: A Life by Steven Nadler.

Or look him up on wikipedia, that should cover the basics, I hope.

glasshouse

i believe in Jesus.

glasshouse

i don't necessarily believe in organized religion - cause that's streamlined by people, not by God

catefrances

glasshouse wrote:

i believe in Jesus.

i believe there was a man called jesus.

Collin

catefrances wrote:

i believe there was a man called jesus.

"You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus."

chopitdown

Collin wrote:

See, I have the same problem with Christians (and other religious people). They too rip verses out of the bible without context to prove their points, to tell people what's right and what's wrong. It goes both ways.

I went to two funerals in the last two weeks. Both the priests told how the deceased were now with god, in a better place. And he read verses of the bible to support this claim.
I am supposed to believe all these people are getting into heaven, god told the priest or something? I think in most religions god is the judge of that and I'm pretty sure that the bible and most holy books have verses saying exactly that.

Sure, it wouldn't have been very nice and respectful to say they might as well be sent to hell to rot in eternity but that's part of the religion as well. Why omit that part? These priests are lying! They have no way of knowing if god will accept them in heaven.

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

What's up with that?

I agree with some of what you say, the Bible is used wrong by both atheists and Christians alike sometimes intentionally and sometimes out of ignorance.

Not knowing the situations around the funerals, but could it be possible that the people who died had outward appearances (actions etc....) that are consistent with being Christian? (praying, being involved, talked with the priests at one time about their salvation?) Now, you are right when ultimately it is God who decides and my guess is IF they did all of those things the priest had a burden of proof that they felt comfortable that they could say the people were going to heaven, but only God really knows; but it should be able to see that there's a least something different. As for the false witness part, if the priests knew the person wasn't a Christian and they said that they were going to heaven then there prob would be an issue; however, if there is evidence of their salvation, in my mind it is not bearing false witness...it's saying what is likely.

Collin wrote:

It also surprises me that you use the term "want to believe". Did you just say one day "hey, this religion and faith stuff is pretty neat, I want that too, I want to believe."

I often hear people say their path to "enlightenment" was a long and hard struggle with lots of doubts and what not. That upon studying this or that religion or faith closer and more thoroughly, they found that it was the truth (for them) and the right path.

Do you think atheists just one day say "I don't want to believe." ?

Don't read too much into want to believe. It was a struggle, and is a struggle but want is still appropriate. Want doesn't just apply to a child who's walking through the candy shop and wants something it can apply to the parent who wants their child to recover from cancer, it can apply to the person who's working on their degree and wants to finish it.

No, I think a lot of people are atheists b/c of experiences they have had in organized religion or they are atheists b/c they think God should fit their idea of him and when something happens that is bad (suffering, death) they question their faith and ultimately reject it. Others are atheists in the same way that some practice a religion....they are exposed to that growing up and since environment plays a big role and their influences are atheist they become atheist. I'm sure there's other reasons too, just like there are many reasons why people become religious.

Collin

chopitdown wrote:

I agree with some of what you say, the Bible is used wrong by both atheists and Christians alike sometimes intentionally and sometimes out of ignorance.

Cool.

Not knowing the situations around the funerals, but could it be possible that the people who died had outward appearances (actions etc....) that are consistent with being Christian? (praying, being involved, talked with the priests at one time about their salvation?) Now, you are right when ultimately it is God who decides and my guess is IF they did all of those things the priest had a burden of proof that they felt comfortable that they could say the people were going to heaven, but only God really knows; but it should be able to see that there's a least something different. As for the false witness part, if the priests knew the person wasn't a Christian and they said that they were going to heaven then there prob would be an issue; however, if there is evidence of their salvation, in my mind it is not bearing false witness...it's saying what is likely.

Actually, those same things were said at every funeral I've ever been to.

Appearances can be deceiving. Either way, I don't think it has anything to do with that. I think it's more about comforting people and making religion more attractive and that to me is also a misuse of the bible.

69charger

Collin wrote:

"You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus."

"8 year olds, Dude."