How can god not know what will happen if he knows all? He created us perfect but he knew we'd choose the wrong path and that would make us imperfect.
That doesn't make sense, if you know everything, past, present and future you know your creation is imperfect. He knew the choice we would make, would make us imperfect, which means he knew he made us imperfect.
He might have designed us perfectly with free will, but he perfectly designed imperfect beings.
i'm not following. if i know past, present and future i will know if my creation will fail but i have designed a plan to get them out of their mistake. explain how that makes them imperfect.
he perfectly designed perfect beings who later made a wrong choice thus putting them in an imperfect state. god didn't do this to his creation, we did it to ourselves. i've been saying that going on 500 posts. convince me that a God who knows everything and who is all-powerful defaults him as being responsible for our choices.
He designed a plan, which he knew only a few would follow, regardless of free will. It's the crappiest plan ever, if you ask me.
i'm not taking that away from you. you can think it's crappy if you'd like. all i know is it's the only resolution in this case. and besides even the "few" don't know it as a fact, they only profess to believe and have faith in it even though it might not be true afterall. that's faith.
Ah, the crappy plan.
"you can't enter this paradise without jesus because of your corrupted nature."
Yes, you can. He can allow you in, that is if he is indeed all-powerful. If he really can't, he isn't all-powerful, which would be a contradiction. And if he can but doesn't want to, it's also a contradiction because you said:
basically, that's what the biblical God wants, to give you back the glorious life that you once had in the garden of eden...
That's what I don't get...
again, God can't let you enter because of your unbelief. how is he going to force you to accept it? you have to accept that you are under sin... God will not allow sin to enter the kingdom. unfortunately, because you are an unbeliever, you don't want to believe in jesus. Jesus is the only guy who can justify your sins.
sure, he is all-powerful and he could force you against your will anytime he wanted to... but he's not gonna do that, cause he'd rather you do it in your own will. and again you'd still need to be cleansed from your sins. so i'm assuming that he would have to wash your sins away even against your will. it only depends if your attitude would then be willing to accept him by then.... cos bottom line is, he's not gonna have someone in heaven who doesn't wanna be there.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i'm not following. if i know past, present and future i will know if my creation will fail but i have designed a plan to get them out of their mistake. explain how that makes them imperfect.
he perfectly designed perfect beings who later made a wrong choice thus putting them in an imperfect state. god didn't do this to his creation, we did it to ourselves. i've been saying that going on 500 posts. convince me that a God who knows everything and who is all-powerful defaults him as being responsible for our choices.
Say you create a human. You design it perfectly and part of that perfect design is free will. Now, this perfect being chooses with its own free will, something you hadn't counted on, it chooses sin, it chooses to go against you...
But if you already know you creation will do this before you even make it, how can you say it's perfect?
I'm not saying he's responsible, per se. I'm saying he created imperfect beings.
again, God can't let you enter because of your unbelief.
Yes, he can. He's all-powerful.
how is he going to force you to accept it?
There are plenty of people who believe in god and won't get into heaven, all muslims for example, the jews as well and people who are not in a religion, like our friend soulsinging who has yet another relationship with god.
He doesn't have to force these people to believe, they already believe. So why can't he let them into heaven, he created the place, he makes the rules and he wants them there!
God can cleanse their sins like Jesus would (and it wouldn't be against their will).
you have to accept that you are under sin... God will not allow sin to enter the kingdom. unfortunately, because you are an unbeliever, you don't want to believe in jesus. Jesus is the only guy who can justify your sins.
Ah, I see. God isn't all-powerful. If he was he could justify your sins like Jesus can. I guess he can't, that's why he sends good, honest muslims, jews, people with personal relationships with god to hell so they can rot, even though he wants them in his kingdom.
cos bottom line is, he's not gonna have someone in heaven who doesn't wanna be there.
We're back at the conditional love, but I need to read that book chopitdown suggested before I make more comments about god's love.
Say you create a human. You design it perfectly and part of that perfect design is free will. Now, this perfect being chooses with its own free will, something you hadn't counted on, it chooses sin, it chooses to go against you...
But if you already know you creation will do this before you even make it, how can you say it's perfect?
I'm not saying he's responsible, per se. I'm saying he created imperfect beings.
i don't know. i don't know why you would end up creating it in the first place but just because he knew everyting it doesn't mean that he created imperfect beings. what i do know is that the bible says that, "we were created for the honor and glory of his praise."
Yes, he can. He's all-powerful.
no he can't. he doesn't impose his powers on your own mind. one thing i'll admit though, he is kinda greedy cause it also mentions, "I do not share my glory with anyone."
There are plenty of people who believe in god and won't get into heaven, all muslims for example, the jews as well and people who are not in a religion, like our friend soulsinging who has yet another relationship with god.
He doesn't have to force these people to believe, they already believe. So why can't he let them into heaven, he created the place, he makes the rules and he wants them there!
it's kinda like, "my god is bigger than your god." ok, that's fine. but my god doesn't force anybody to believe either. he gives them a choice.... and i'm sure taht even soulsinging's god would require you to believe in order to participate in whatever type of blessings it requires.... or i don't know. maybe not.
God can cleanse their sins like Jesus would (and it wouldn't be against their will).
see, that's the thing. jesus already forgave us of our sins... but you would still have to believe in jesus. technically, it's our unbelief that ultimately condemns us.
Ah, I see. God isn't all-powerful. If he was he could justify your sins like Jesus can. I guess he can't, that's why he sends good, honest muslims, jews, people with personal relationships with god to hell so they can rot, even though he wants them in his kingdom.
well, basically, again, their unbelief in Jesus, or for what he has already accomplished is what will ultimately condemn them. Like I already said, God has already forgiven our sins but it's only up to you to believe or not. and this is acquired when we come to jesus, cause he's the only one who'll make us understand it.
We're back at the conditional love, but I need to read that book chopitdown suggested before I make more comments about god's love.
well, go ahead. i bet he'll probably say the same thing and i wouldn't be surprised. cause we're not back to conditional love. we're still in the same spot. God has defeated sin through his son Jesus Christ when he was nailed on the cross despite our transgessions and failures so that he may redeem us. nothing's been challenged yet.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Alright, I read some of the posts in this thread(not all because that would take too long), and some people have interesting points. I would just like to share my thoughts on God, religion, etc.
I do believe in God. I don't have a religion, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God(though possible, I somehow don't think so), and I don't believe any religion is wrong in their beliefs.
I think that all religions, whether they know it or not, all have the same God. The native americans worshiped the sun, earth, animals, etc, which is all nature. Which according to christians God created and should be respected and marveled at. To me, that's the same God. They just chose to honor him differently.
I don't think there is a hell. Because my God, who loves everyone no matter what, wouldn't do that to someone. He doesn't care what I do really. As long as I don't cause harm to people, and always have the best intentions.
He doesn't meddle in peoples business either. He doesn't cause natural disasters, or save someones house, or whatever. He's got better things to do, and bigger problems. Like wars, corruption in power, etc.
I don't think that doing the right thing should have to do with God or religion. People shouldn't even put much thought into God, or Jesus, or religion. My God just wants me to live and do the right thing because it's natural for me to do it. Not because I was thinking "what would god want me to do", or "according to the bible it's the right thing to do". To me when you think about God when doing good things it almost makes the good deed wrong(?), if that makes any sense.
Anyways, there's more I would like to say, but I've already said too much. I hope this makes sense to some
and the only way to get out of sin was through death. I don't know why it was like that.... I don't claim to hold all the answers, I only know that biblically speaking this is the correct interpretation of the bible.
ill tell you why it is like that. becos god, the alpha and the omega, the creator, etc,... he MADE it that way.
there is no other answer. the only other possibility is that there is a power GREATER than your god that made rules your god has to obey. im guessing that is not a contention you are comfortable making, is it?
ill tell you why it is like that. becos god, the alpha and the omega, the creator, etc,... he MADE it that way.
yeah, i know, because god made it that way, but the question to WHY he made it that way is something that we'll probably never know. the only answer the bible gives us is "for the honor and glory to his praise". which probably doesn't explain much anyway...
there is no other answer. the only other possibility is that there is a power GREATER than your god that made rules your god has to obey. im guessing that is not a contention you are comfortable making, is it?
no, not at all.... i'm not claiming anything. i respect others beliefs and opinions. i don't feel the need to "defend" my god. like my father said once, "dios no necesita abejas pa nadar" or "god doesn't need a lifesaver to swim." it kinda sounds more clever in english, actually, now that i think about it. all i know, is that this god i'm claiming to believe is kinda a surrealistic god. a god who transcends time and all. someone who doesn't make sense with our human minds and probably will take more than a single lifetime to ever understand.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well about the last boy being kicked out because he's been "naughty" that's not how God works... that's just your interpretation simplifying God. and another thing if the mother set out that one dude to bring back the children they wouldn't have to follow all these rules... all they gotta do is believe that dude and follow him and he'll bring them back to the house. they won't have to worry about these "rules" cause the dude will fix it for them. even if they've been naughty, the dude will fix it for them...all they would have to do is believe in that dude, that's it.
and a child is supposed to know which dude to believe... how? you think it's perfectly loving for the mother to say "well my 5 year old child, it was a noble effort, i know you wanted to come home to me, but the guy you came to my house with is the wrong guy. so im sorry, but you just earned a lifetime of being sodomized cos now you're his. sorry" *slam*
it's kinda like, "my god is bigger than your god." ok, that's fine. but my god doesn't force anybody to believe either. he gives them a choice.... and i'm sure taht even soulsinging's god would require you to believe in order to participate in whatever type of blessings it requires.... or i don't know. maybe not.
yeah, i know, because god made it that way, but the question to WHY he made it that way is something that we'll probably never know. the only answer the bible gives us is "for the honor and glory to his praise". which probably doesn't explain much anyway...
no, not at all.... i'm not claiming anything. i respect others beliefs and opinions. i don't feel the need to "defend" my god. like my father said once, "dios no necesita abejas pa nadar" or "god doesn't need a lifesaver to swim." it kinda sounds more clever in english, actually, now that i think about it. all i know, is that this god i'm claiming to believe is kinda a surrealistic god. a god who transcends time and all. someone who doesn't make sense with our human minds and probably will take more than a single lifetime to ever understand.
and im saying the WHY is becos god is as vain and petty as the average human. as i have been saying from the beginning. im offering a theory. your only theory is that you dont know. even the answer the bible gives supports my theory... becos god wants a bunch of honor, glory, and praise. even you have posted in here that he is greedy about lapping up all the worship in the world.
funny you mention that last part. becos the god I believe in transcends all and doesn't make sense to human thought. yet here you are, writing post after post claiming that you can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us, while im the one insisting we have no clue what god wants from us.
and a child is supposed to know which dude to believe... how? you think it's perfectly loving for the mother to say "well my 5 year old child, it was a noble effort, i know you wanted to come home to me, but the guy you came to my house with is the wrong guy. so im sorry, but you just earned a lifetime of being sodomized cos now you're his. sorry" *slam*
yeah, that's love man.
yeah, well, the analogy was a simplified one anyways.
but no one is supposed to know anything. that's not what i've been saying. i'm saying the bible asks that you have faith and besides it wasn't god who sent out all those "dudes" in the first place. the bible even says that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light deceiving people.
you're forgetting that while god put the cookies there and said, "for in the day that you eat of those cookies thereof, you shall surely die." and not to mention that there were some other cookies that offered eternal life. but they chose to eat the cookies that "brought death." because the serpent told them they'd be like gods, knowing right from wrong. or in this case of the mother and her 5 kids, the stinky little rat that runs in and out of the kitchen from the mom's house that told the kids this lie.
god didn't make it hard for us, man. not as you make is sound. in the old days, god sent prophets after prophets, prophesying and doing miracles of all kinds so that they would believe. still nothing. that was back in the old days of moses and abraham and david. it was like the mother sending out those kids for eating the cookies but sent out messengers performing miracles, signs and wonders of all kinds, . not to mention that the only reason why God kicked adam and eve out of the garden of eden was so that they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and would live eternally in that state of corruption.
how would you apply that to the analogy of the mother and her 5 kids? you see how minimize the situation? i'd say the mother might've made some good cookies and some bad one's too, because let's just say those got burned. let's say she put the bad cookies on the counter and said, "don't eat from these, or they'll give you the cooties." but instead of eating the good cookies that were all around the kitchen they ate the bad one's. that's how the biblical story goes.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
yeah, well, the analogy was a simplified one anyways.
but no one is supposed to know anything. that's not what i've been saying. i'm saying the bible asks that you have faith and besides it wasn't god who sent out all those "dudes" in the first place. the bible even says that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light deceiving people.
what if jesus is the devil disguised as god? and the bible is one of his deceptions? i just blew my own mind
and a child is supposed to know which dude to believe... how? you think it's perfectly loving for the mother to say "well my 5 year old child, it was a noble effort, i know you wanted to come home to me, but the guy you came to my house with is the wrong guy. so im sorry, but you just earned a lifetime of being sodomized cos now you're his. sorry" *slam*
yeah, that's love man.
there's a scripture that says, "taste and see that the lord is good."
i'd guess you'd have to see for yourself to know if jesus is the right "dude". but i'm guessing that's not happening. cause it sounds like you want me to PROVE to you that this is the right way in order for you to end up believing... or i don't know. i really don't see the point of your post on this one.
in any event, you're still left with the choice of finding out for yourself if jesus is the right dude. if you want to judge the bible by the weak, "but how the hell will we know who the right guy is?" well then you'd never even know cause of your unbelief. the bible doesn't give you a hard time. all it tells you is, "take it or leave it." if you want to leave it because you think this god is vain and a prick or whatever then it's not wasting it's time with you.
i mean, you've already said yourself in other posts that if it turns out this god is real that's not a god you'd want any part of so you'd rather "spend your lifetime being sodomized." well, good luck with that. the way i see it, you haven't even opened up for a single second.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
what if jesus is the devil disguised as god? and the bible is one of his deceptions? i just blew my own mind
yeah, what if... who knows. it all boils down to what you choose. as for the bible, it's claiming that jesus came to give you life and more abundantly, while the devil came to steal, kill and destroy. i'm assuming that if you believe in the devil, then you automatically believe that jesus is the way.
i don't know your question doesn't make that much sense.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i'd guess you'd have to see for yourself to know if jesus is the right "dude". but i'm guessing that's not happening. cause it sounds like you want me to PROVE to you that this is the right way in order for you to end up believing... or i don't know. i really don't see the point of your post on this one.
not at all. you can't prove it's the right way, no one can. it's a matter of faith. all ive been saying is a god that lets 80% of humanity burn in hell for eternity doesn't seem like such a nice guy to me. i don't care what your excuses for him are, it's weak. either he's limited in his powers and can't save these people, or his love is not as great as you claim and he doesn't care to.
in any event, you're still left with the choice of finding out for yourself if jesus is the right dude. if you want to judge the bible by the weak, "but how the hell will we know who the right guy is?" well then you'd never even know cause of your unbelief. the bible doesn't give you a hard time. all it tells you is, "take it or leave it." if you want to leave it because you think this god is vain and a prick or whatever then it's not wasting it's time with you.
i leave it becos it doesn't make sense to me, for many of the reasons i've discussed. i cannot believe in a religion that claims god loves humans, but is still going to allow the overwhelming majority of them to spend eternity in torment. it is a ridiculous contention and convinces me the religion is a crock.
i mean, you've already said yourself in other posts that if it turns out this god is real that's not a god you'd want any part of so you'd rather "spend your lifetime being sodomized." well, good luck with that. the way i see it, you haven't even opened up for a single second.
neither have you. you've never been willing to even acknowledge that anything in the bible might be remotely confusing, slightly contradictory, or that any of your arguments are circular. i'm well versed in your christian logic dances. you've said nothing i've not heard before. if you had anything fresh, i'd be willing to consider it. but this is the same old batch of illogical excuses i've heard so many times and fail to find convincing or compelling at all.
yeah, what if... who knows. it all boils down to what you choose. as for the bible, it's claiming that jesus came to give you life and more abundantly, while the devil came to steal, kill and destroy. i'm assuming that if you believe in the devil, then you automatically believe that jesus is the way.
i don't know your question doesn't make that much sense.
it's not supposed to make sense. it's what we in the secular world call a joke. it's supposed to be fun, cos in my religion, i believe god wants us laughing, smiling, and being happy. not mourning how horribly sinful and awful we are.
and im saying the WHY is becos god is as vain and petty as the average human. as i have been saying from the beginning. im offering a theory. your only theory is that you dont know. even the answer the bible gives supports my theory... becos god wants a bunch of honor, glory, and praise. even you have posted in here that he is greedy about lapping up all the worship in the world.
uhhh, n, n, no, no, no, no, noo, nooo, noooo.... i don't have a theory. and it wasn't that i don't know. the bible answers your own questions. you say that god is vain and a prick based on what you gather from the bible. you've never really made that clear why other than "if god is forgiving why doesn't he forgive us for making a simple mistake about not believing in the right dude?" all well, too bad, if that's the case, it's your fault, not his. it's his heaven anyways, not yours.
it's like a concert.... they provide free tickets but you have to get 'em before a certain time but you procrastinate and say, "nah, it's probably a trick to get you to buy something else or something...." then when the moment comes and you find out it was real you go up to the gates and they say, "sorry dude but no more tickets... can't come to the show."
yeah, you'd be flipping those dudes off or probably trying to convince them to let you in.... yeah, you'd think they were punks.... but think on the other side... what about those other people that believed? you think that's fair for them? especially since you "weren't cleansed" you can't enter with that state of corruption to the show.
funny you mention that last part. becos the god I believe in transcends all and doesn't make sense to human thought. yet here you are, writing post after post claiming that you can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us, while im the one insisting we have no clue what god wants from us.
what's even funnier though is that i believe that through christ these mysteries are made known to us. yeah, i don't know everything... i never claimed i did. but it's awefully good to know that i believe in someone who'll give me those answers.
and btw, i'm only posting what you have been misrepresenting of the bible. i'm not "claiming that i can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us". no, i'm not "claiming", i'm "reading"
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
not at all. you can't prove it's the right way, no one can. it's a matter of faith. all ive been saying is a god that lets 80% of humanity burn in hell for eternity doesn't seem like such a nice guy to me. i don't care what your excuses for him are, it's weak. either he's limited in his powers and can't save these people, or his love is not as great as you claim and he doesn't care to.
and all i've been saying that this god has done all that he could to make the 80% of them to enter heaven. all, well, yeah, it sucks. but it ain't god's fault.... no matter how you put it either. your ideas are weak too. i've told you so many times that in a spiritual sense our mortal bodies can't contain God because of our corrupted state. if God were to let us enter heaven without jesus, we'd burn up. yeah, it sucks. yeah, you probably don't understand it. it doesn't mean he's limited in his powers.... as i've told you many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many and much more times before God cannot interfere in our choices that we make
yes, God wants you to accomplish a good life.... yes, god wants you to live a pure and holy life... cause he doesn't want anything bad corrupting heaven. but he knows that we are incapable of doing such things so he offers jesus. how the hell is that a prick, vain and petty god? explain that to me
i leave it becos it doesn't make sense to me, for many of the reasons i've discussed. i cannot believe in a religion that claims god loves humans, but is still going to allow the overwhelming majority of them to spend eternity in torment. it is a ridiculous contention and convinces me the religion is a crock.
yeah, spend eternity in torment because of their own choices they've taken upon themselves. all well, too bad, that's what they wanted.
neither have you. you've never been willing to even acknowledge that anything in the bible might be remotely confusing, slightly contradictory, or that any of your arguments are circular. i'm well versed in your christian logic dances. you've said nothing i've not heard before. if you had anything fresh, i'd be willing to consider it. but this is the same old batch of illogical excuses i've heard so many times and fail to find convincing or compelling at all.
no, no, i'm definitely willing to acknowledge how many things are remotely confusing, or contradictory... point in case, that's what i'm doing. you're saying that this part of the bible doesn't make sense... the "loving" and "just" god part. and i'm discussing this with you. i've given you answers but you say they aren't enough.... beats me. then you go on and tell me that my arguments are circling.... well, they wouldn't be only if you don't make the same arguments over and over :rolleyes:
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
it's not supposed to make sense. it's what we in the secular world call a joke. it's supposed to be fun, cos in my religion, i believe god wants us laughing, smiling, and being happy. not mourning how horribly sinful and awful we are.
funny... i don't have a religion. but all the while i laugh, smile and i'm probably just as happy as you are and neither am i mourning how sinful we are....
i know though.... i see it everyday the cause and effects of sin. i see it at work. i see the choices they've taken on themselves. i see it on me too... cause i know that this restless body is corrupted. and so is yours. and so is this planet. wars, hurricanes, sickness, famines, earthquakes, tsunamis.... all an imperfect sign of life. but the life that god offers me through christ holds no such sorrows.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
yeah, well, the analogy was a simplified one anyways.
Forget the analogy, then. Here's what I don't get.
you're forgetting that while god put the cookies there and said, "for in the day that you eat of those cookies thereof, you shall surely die." and not to mention that there were some other cookies that offered eternal life. but they chose to eat the cookies that "brought death." because the serpent told them they'd be like gods, knowing right from wrong.
God created everything and knows everything, past, present, future, right?
Ok, then he made Adam and Eve while he already knew they'd eat the forbidden fruit, which he also made. And he made the serpent as well, right.
God is contradicting himself here, there's no other way around it. Forget Jesus and all, he fucked up the moment he made Adam and Eve.
He wants his people to live in a perfect paradise without sin, yet he makes people who will sin, he knew this even before he made them. What's more, he must have made 'evil' as well.
god didn't make it hard for us, man. not as you make is sound.
No? Answer these questions for me please?
Does god know everything?
Is god all-powerful?
Does god want his people to be in paradise?
Did god make man?
Did he already know man would sin?
He must have created sin as well, no?
Doesn't sound like he made it particulary easy.
Then he comes up with an ultimate plan (although, his plan isn't really as succesful, but he knows that).
There can only be one god according to the bible so therefore all the other gods do not exist, like Allah, Brahma...
But what are these people worshipping then? Let's see, this wonderful life, they are thankful to be alive, they all worship the creator but under a different name...
That's what he wanted, more or less. Surely he can't expect that his imperfect beings, which he made this way, get the names, right? So they worship him, they believe in him... yet he cannot forgive them. He cannot say to them, hey fellows ... I really admire your faith, that's awesome! You've been good and showed you are loyal to me, even though you thought my name was Bob or Dirk instead of God, no biggie... here swoosh away with your sins (which was sort of my fault in the first place, you know).
No he says, although you had tremendous faith in me (but you called me Allah, what's in a name, eh?) I have to send you to hell (you get it, right you did this to yourself, somehow). Seriously, what do you want me to do? Cleanse your sins? I cannot do that, what do you think I am? So kind of all-powerful being? I know you lead a good and honest life, that you helped people and were kind, kind of like my son Jesus here... but seriously it's out of my hands.
Forget the analogy, then. Here's what I don't get.
God created everything and knows everything, past, present, future, right?
Ok, then he made Adam and Eve while he already knew they'd eat the forbidden fruit, which he also made. And he made the serpent as well, right.
God is contradicting himself here, there's no other way around it. Forget Jesus and all, he fucked up the moment he made Adam and Eve.
did you read the scripture i provided before? "and it grieved the Lord God that he had made man" Genesis 6:6 so, yeah, you're right.
He wants his people to live in a perfect paradise without sin, yet he makes people who will sin, he knew this even before he made them. What's more, he must have made 'evil' as well.
no, see, i guess that's where you're having a hard time. sin never originated from God. The Bible says that sin originated from the devil, not from God. Sin, I guess, is an "illusion" of some kind. you know, like the analogy i made about the matrix. Paul speaks about it in many many passages. i guess it caused like some kind of chemical reaction of some sort when Eve believed in the serpents lie, or somethin. the point is that once they believed in the serpent that's when their "eyes became naked" and entered a corrupted state.
God didn't originally create us sinful creatures. He created us perfect beings. True, God knew this would happen. That is why in his all-knowing and all-powerful plan he planned Jesus.
No? Answer these questions for me please?
Does god know everything?
yes
Is god all-powerful?
yes
Does god want his people to be in paradise?
yes
Did god make man?
yes
Did he already know man would sin?
yes
He must have created sin as well, no?
no, read above
Doesn't sound like he made it particulary easy.
probably not, i would agree it's not easy. i mean, humanly it's not, but spiritually it is. (that's a whole other thing but i see your point)
Then he comes up with an ultimate plan (although, his plan isn't really as succesful, but he knows that).
ok, what's the plan? the jesus plan? no, the jesus plan is succesful.... the jesus plan already succeeded at the cross. it's only up to you to believe it. but once you believe it's simply given to you.
There can only be one god according to the bible so therefore all the other gods do not exist, like Allah, Brahma...
But what are these people worshipping then? Let's see, this wonderful life, they are thankful to be alive, they all worship the creator but under a different name...
That's what he wanted, more or less. Surely he can't expect that his imperfect beings, which he made this way, get the names, right? So they worship him, they believe in him... yet he cannot forgive them. He cannot say to them, hey fellows ... I really admire your faith, that's awesome! You've been good and showed you are loyal to me, even though you thought my name was Bob or Dirk instead of God, no biggie... here swoosh away with your sins (which was sort of my fault in the first place, you know).
it would be nice, yes. but bob or dirk never achieved a perfect life for us like jesus did. they didn't pay a ransom or rescue us from sin. God can't say "swoosh away with your sins" cause of our own unbelief. See, it was our own belief that destituted us from God and because of our own disbelief and disobedience that sin entered. God cannot quarrel with us as we are one-on-one for about maybe 3 reasons that i can think of.
1. God hates sin
2. We'd dissolve at the moment we'd be before his presence
3. Our unbelief will keep us away from God in the first place
see, God is Spirit. unseeable, unattainable, ungraspable... at least not with our human eyes, or human hands and human understanding. in order for us to have access to God we'd have to enter a spiritual state. unfortunately, because we are already contaminated (mind you, not a literal contamination but figuratively speaking) inside and out (mind and body) we wouldn't be able to see God. read Genesis again right after Adam and Eve sinned God says, "Where art thou?" if someone were to just read it at first glance they'd think, "wait! doesn't god know everything already? why then is he asking for adam?" well, we'd have to understand that it's a spiritual meaning. and the meaning was that Adam's spirit was no longer in contact with God himself. He had already entered into a destitute realm.
No he says, although you had tremendous faith in me (but you called me Allah, what's in a name, eh?) I have to send you to hell (you get it, right you did this to yourself, somehow). Seriously, what do you want me to do? Cleanse your sins? I cannot do that, what do you think I am? So kind of all-powerful being? I know you lead a good and honest life, that you helped people and were kind, kind of like my son Jesus here... but seriously it's out of my hands.
no, this is completely your perspective which i can follow but you'd have to speak within biblical context in order to appreciate its message, or at least understand.
Yes, God forgives your sins. But you have to go to Jesus, since he's the only guy who never even told a single lie. Nothing is out of God's hands except our own will.
in all honesty though, read paul's letters. they explain it better than me. and the bible does hold answers to you and soulsinging's questions... i'm getting tired and i've been as patient as i could. here's a scripture in Romans 3:5,6 read it
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
did you read the scripture i provided before? "and it grieved the Lord God that he had made man" Genesis 6:6 so, yeah, you're right.
Yes, I have read the Bible, god wants to wipe away man because he was sorry he made them, except for Noah who has to build an arc.
But it doesn't make sense to me. Not at all. All this trial and error doesn't sound like the work of a perfect being that knows everything.
He makes man, knows they'll sin and knows he'll have to flood them. How does that make sense? That's what a human would do.
no, see, i guess that's where you're having a hard time. sin never originated from God. The Bible says that sin originated from the devil, not from God. Sin, I guess, is an "illusion" of some kind.
Something can exist that god did not create and that he did not foresee? How is that possible?
God didn't create everything. God create almost everything, then. Ok, fine by me but again this sounds like a contradiction.
God didn't originally create us sinful creatures. He created us perfect beings. True, God knew this would happen. That is why in his all-knowing and all-powerful plan he planned Jesus.
I'm going to make an analogy here a very simple one. Say you pour some chemicals together which you know will explode 5 days from now. Are you saying that you didn't make an explosive, then, even though you know it will explode?
ok, what's the plan? the jesus plan? no, the jesus plan is succesful.... the jesus plan already succeeded at the cross. it's only up to you to believe it. but once you believe it's simply given to you.
I disagree again. It's only up to you to believe it. We talked about this before in a biblical sense it's easy, but in reality it is not. And god knows this and knew this. Perhaps he just doesn't care.
it would be nice, yes. but bob or dirk never achieved a perfect life for us like jesus did. they didn't pay a ransom or rescue us from sin. God can't say "swoosh away with your sins" cause of our own unbelief. See, it was our own belief that destituted us from God and because of our own disbelief and disobedience that sin entered. God cannot quarrel with us as we are one-on-one for about maybe 3 reasons that i can think of.
1. God hates sin
2. We'd dissolve at the moment we'd be before his presence
3. Our unbelief will keep us away from God in the first place
That tells me one thing, god is not all-powerful or he doesn't really want us in his paradise. Perhaps that's two things.
Perhaps he wants us there but his vanity is even stronger than his love.
Yes, God forgives your sins. But you have to go to Jesus, since he's the only guy who never even told a single lie. Nothing is out of God's hands except our own will.
Why does that matter that someone goes through Jesus? Why does it matter to god? He knows what's in our hearts.
But if a person believes in god, loves god and does everything for god, but happens to be a muslim, he goes directly to hell. Even if he devoted his life to helping others, loving others, not telling a single lie... straight to hell like Hitler.
But a vile murderer, who killed and raped, who set fire to churches but in the end found Jesus (sincerely) will be forgiven and enter the kingdom?
edit:
in all honesty though, read paul's letters. they explain it better than me. and the bible does hold answers to you and soulsinging's questions... i'm getting tired and i've been as patient as i could. here's a scripture in Romans 3:5,6 read it
I have read the entire bible. There's not a single answer in it. Romans 3:5,6 how does that answer any questions.
it's like a concert.... they provide free tickets but you have to get 'em before a certain time but you procrastinate and say, "nah, it's probably a trick to get you to buy something else or something...." then when the moment comes and you find out it was real you go up to the gates and they say, "sorry dude but no more tickets... can't come to the show."
yeah, you'd be flipping those dudes off or probably trying to convince them to let you in.... yeah, you'd think they were punks.... but think on the other side... what about those other people that believed? you think that's fair for them? especially since you "weren't cleansed" you can't enter with that state of corruption to the show.
that doesn't even make sense.
here's one... you're in college. you've got a guy, one of your best friends your whole life. you grew up with him. he throws a party at his house. you knock at the door and he says "sorry dude, im only allowed to hang out with my brothers from the phi si fraternity from now on, so we can never be seen together again. we're still best friends though." you gonna believe he really cares about you and you are important to him? or are you gonna think he's a dick? if not, you have a pretty twisted idea of love and friendship.
uhhh, n, n, no, no, no, no, noo, nooo, noooo.... i don't have a theory. and it wasn't that i don't know. the bible answers your own questions. you say that god is vain and a prick based on what you gather from the bible. you've never really made that clear why other than "if god is forgiving why doesn't he forgive us for making a simple mistake about not believing in the right dude?" all well, too bad, if that's the case, it's your fault, not his. it's his heaven anyways, not yours..
you need to rest before you sleep apparently. this makes no sense. "i have answers, i dont have answers. i have no theories, the bible gives me all the theories." i explained exactly why i thought your god is a prick, quite clearly too. even those who disagree with me can figure out what i'm saying.
then you go on and tell me that my arguments are circling.... well, they wouldn't be only if you don't make the same arguments over and over :rolleyes:
ill make a new one as soon as you actually respond with a sensible answer to any of my arguments. ycos they are circular, becos we keep coming back to the same premise. here, i'll show you:
and all i've been saying that this god has done all that he could to make the 80% of them to enter heaven. all, well, yeah, it sucks. but it ain't god's fault.... no matter how you put it either. your ideas are weak too. i've told you so many times that in a spiritual sense our mortal bodies can't contain God because of our corrupted state. if God were to let us enter heaven without jesus, we'd burn up. yeah, it sucks. yeah, you probably don't understand it. it doesn't mean he's limited in his powers.... as i've told you many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many and much more times before God cannot interfere in our choices that we make
yes, God wants you to accomplish a good life.... yes, god wants you to live a pure and holy life... cause he doesn't want anything bad corrupting heaven. but he knows that we are incapable of doing such things so he offers jesus. how the hell is that a prick, vain and petty god? explain that to me
1) we'd burn up if we entered heaven eh? god created heaven and the rules it operates by. maybe he could change those rules.
2) "god gave us jesus." god gave us a way out of sin. HE decided it would be jesus. he could have picked any way he liked to redeem humanity. he opted for jesus, a tiny minority religion that he knew would have no effect on the vast majority of the world's population and demand that billions of people who were already worshipping him would have to abandon their loved traditions and values to worship him in a different way. god decided on how we are cleansed. you refuse to confront this point and consistently dodge it by saying crap like "it's our choice." yes, it's our choice to take it. but GOD decided what the choices are... jesus and heaven, or no jesus and hell. he could have allowed for our redemption any way he wanted (magic water, buddah, smoking weed, whatever, he's god). he decided on jesus. he gave us one option for life in heaven, and one option only. i admit, it is our choice to take it. but he still made it that way. in his unlimited power, he could have made dozens of ways into heave, he chose to only offer one.
premise:
god is the creator and decided how things are and operate. every time i bring this up, you duck the question and talk about our choices. sure, we can choose to accept jesus and go to heaven. but we cannot choose to accept buddha and go to heaven. becos god decided he didnt want it that way and would only accept jesus. anytime i bring this up, you can't answer it. you make up nonsense about blood and so on and then 2 sentences later claim some bullshit humility about not understanding god's mysterious ways.
funny... i don't have a religion. but all the while i laugh, smile and i'm probably just as happy as you are and neither am i mourning how sinful we are....
i know though.... i see it everyday the cause and effects of sin. i see it at work. i see the choices they've taken on themselves. i see it on me too... cause i know that this restless body is corrupted. and so is yours. and so is this planet. wars, hurricanes, sickness, famines, earthquakes, tsunamis.... all an imperfect sign of life. but the life that god offers me through christ holds no such sorrows.
i don't see the sorrow in that business. it is just life. and my body is perfectly fine... it was briefly corrupted that one time, but i got a cream for that.
Yes, I have read the Bible, god wants to wipe away man because he was sorry he made them, except for Noah who has to build an arc.
But it doesn't make sense to me. Not at all. All this trial and error doesn't sound like the work of a perfect being that knows everything.
He makes man, knows they'll sin and knows he'll have to flood them. How does that make sense? That's what a human would do.
I don't see what's so hard to understand. I myself as a human who makes sense of things the same way you do don't have a hard time understanding it.
Yes, God knows everything and knew he'd have to flood them, but bear in mind that from what we gather in the bible the people of that time were evil. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." I don't know but from that scripture it's telling me that it was some pretty serious stuff. Like the last scripture I provided (I don't know if you read it) Paul asks, "how then will God judge the world?" I mean at this point if we're looking into the bible and trying to understand its perspective we'd have to assume that this God is just and rightly judging the world.
I guess that's where you have a hard time. You already come with a fixed mind trying to disprove the bible, so therefore you'll have a hard time believing that God will judge the world the right way. Ultimately it's like a fixed outcome which makes you end up not believing it whatsoever. Know what i mean? That's why I'm telling you that you need to open your mind and leave out all your preconceptions about it for just a moment. that's only if you really want to understand it.
Something can exist that god did not create and that he did not foresee? How is that possible?
God didn't create everything. God create almost everything, then. Ok, fine by me but again this sounds like a contradiction.
well, nobody ever said God created sin. I guess for the most part we're assuming that everybody understands that little biblical concept.
but it's like the matrix analogy i made. in essence, sin is not real. a teacher once said to me, "sin is a false identity." sin is only in our thoughts and minds. can i show you where sin is? no. can i prove to you sin is real? no. that's because it's really not real. it's a spiritual thing, my friend. and i understand you'll have a hard time understanding it.
that is why when christ came john writes in I John, "but we know that the son of God is come and has given us an understanding to know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ..." meaning that Jesus is the one who will lead us to the reality, rather than this illusion that we're in.
I'm going to make an analogy here a very simple one. Say you pour some chemicals together which you know will explode 5 days from now. Are you saying that you didn't make an explosive, then, even though you know it will explode?
well, God's not the one who put the chemical "sin" in the mix. so it's more like this....
i'm mixing some chemicals to create something all on my own. then i knowingly know that someone is going to mix another chemical, which will screw up everything and cause this explosion. it's not gonna matter to me entirely, sure i'll be disappointed but ultimately i'll be the brains in the situation and will fix it up anyhow.
but why did i allow this to happen? haven't you ever seen a mother and a child when the mother repeatedly tells the boy not to jump on the but he does it anyway? the mother knows that if he keeps doing it he'll fall and bump his head that's why she keeps telling the boy not to do it. but then finally she allows him to fall and bump his head. so then when he does he'll understand what his mother was saying all along.
that's really how God's perspective is only unlike the mother God himself tells the boy, "don't jump on the bed for in the day that you do you will surely fall and bump your head."
I disagree again. It's only up to you to believe it. We talked about this before in a biblical sense it's easy, but in reality it is not. And god knows this and knew this. Perhaps he just doesn't care.
maybe the biblical sense is the reality sense? maybe your reality is not a reality at all? who knows? i can't answer that for you... that's why i leave it entirely up to you to open your mind or not.
yes, God knew this and he does care.
That tells me one thing, god is not all-powerful or he doesn't really want us in his paradise. Perhaps that's two things.
Perhaps he wants us there but his vanity is even stronger than his love.
before anything, i'd really love for you to answer this question. how does it make god not all-powerful, greedy, and vain?
Why does that matter that someone goes through Jesus?
because this human being jesus achieved a perfect life.
Why does it matter to god? He knows what's in our hearts.
yes, he knows what's in our hearts... apparently what is in our hearts is vile and corrupted. that's why it matters to God, because he sees sin eating away inside you... so that's why he puts jesus there to rescue you from it.
But if a person believes in god, loves god and does everything for god, but happens to be a muslim, he goes directly to hell. Even if he devoted his life to helping others, loving others, not telling a single lie... straight to hell like Hitler.
yes... because he was still under the law of sin and death.
But a vile murderer, who killed and raped, who set fire to churches but in the end found Jesus (sincerely) will be forgiven and enter the kingdom?
would you forgive a person who stole from you? would you forgive a person who burned your house down? that's just to show you that God's love is not limited.
I have read the entire bible. There's not a single answer in it. Romans 3:5,6 how does that answer any questions.
paul asked a rhetorical question to yours. you asked "how is god merciful and loving but yet sends people to hell if they don't agree with him?" he responds, "how then will God judge the world?"
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i don't see the sorrow in that business. it is just life. and my body is perfectly fine... it was briefly corrupted that one time, but i got a cream for that.
sure, you got a cream for it... but ultimately your body is going down the drain.... just make sure your soul doesn't go with it either.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
here's one... you're in college. you've got a guy, one of your best friends your whole life. you grew up with him. he throws a party at his house. you knock at the door and he says "sorry dude, im only allowed to hang out with my brothers from the phi si fraternity from now on, so we can never be seen together again. we're still best friends though." you gonna believe he really cares about you and you are important to him? or are you gonna think he's a dick? if not, you have a pretty twisted idea of love and friendship.
actually, my analogy made more sense than this one.
you need to rest before you sleep apparently. this makes no sense. "i have answers, i dont have answers. i have no theories, the bible gives me all the theories." i explained exactly why i thought your god is a prick, quite clearly too. even those who disagree with me can figure out what i'm saying.
no, figured i knew what you were saying since the first time i read your post referring to this concept of yours and i explained why is not quite clearly it's not so...
true though.... i don't have all the answers, but i got this one answer
also, i have no theories... cause they're all in the bible, they're not mine...
how does that not make any sense?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
ill make a new one as soon as you actually respond with a sensible answer to any of my arguments. ycos they are circular, becos we keep coming back to the same premise.
i already have, man.... i think in 600 posts
1) we'd burn up if we entered heaven eh? god created heaven and the rules it operates by. maybe he could change those rules.
you should really listen to yourself coming from my side... no offense though.
that's the way he made them, that's the way it's gonna be. i bet he'd be doing us more damage by trying to change his rules rather than helping us.
2) "god gave us jesus." god gave us a way out of sin. HE decided it would be jesus. he could have picked any way he liked to redeem humanity. he opted for jesus, a tiny minority religion that he knew would have no effect on the vast majority of the world's population and demand that billions of people who were already worshipping him would have to abandon their loved traditions and values to worship him in a different way. god decided on how we are cleansed. you refuse to confront this point and consistently dodge it by saying crap like "it's our choice." yes, it's our choice to take it. but GOD decided what the choices are... jesus and heaven, or no jesus and hell. he could have allowed for our redemption any way he wanted (magic water, buddah, smoking weed, whatever, he's god). he decided on jesus. he gave us one option for life in heaven, and one option only. i admit, it is our choice to take it. but he still made it that way. in his unlimited power, he could have made dozens of ways into heave, he chose to only offer one.
yes, only jesus my friend. because jesus as a single human being like you and i achieved a perfect life for us. what much more do you want him to do? jesus! he gave you a perfect life!
premise:
god is the creator and decided how things are and operate. every time i bring this up, you duck the question and talk about our choices. sure, we can choose to accept jesus and go to heaven. but we cannot choose to accept buddha and go to heaven. becos god decided he didnt want it that way and would only accept jesus. anytime i bring this up, you can't answer it. you make up nonsense about blood and so on and then 2 sentences later claim some bullshit humility about not understanding god's mysterious ways.
i can't answer it?????? what the hell do you think i've been doing staying up at 3 or 4 am answering your questions. GEEZ at least give me that much...
but you answered it yourself.... buddha never died on a cross and resurrected from the dead!
God didn't decide and make how we as humans and individuals operate or respond to certain things in life! that happens entirely by our own choice... and i've agreed God has no power over this. tell me, from your understanding and your logic, if God is all-powerful does he decide when i scratch my balls? or when i fart? geez... man, just cause he's all-powerful and all-knowing doesn't mean he's planned every single event in the face of human history.
or point in case, an atheist. did god decide that he/she would be an atheist?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
You already come with a fixed mind trying to disprove the bible, so therefore you'll have a hard time believing that God will judge the world the right way. Ultimately it's like a fixed outcome which makes you end up not believing it whatsoever. Know what i mean?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. But it's not the case.
That's why I'm telling you that you need to open your mind and leave out all your preconceptions about it for just a moment. that's only if you really want to understand it.
Did you try this?
it's a spiritual thing, my friend. and i understand you'll have a hard time understanding it.
Is this in the bible? I never read that. I guess it's an assumption.
that's why i leave it entirely up to you to open your mind or not.
Funny, that you say I have a closed mind because I don't agree with you and don't believe in the bible.
before anything, i'd really love for you to answer this question. how does it make god not all-powerful, greedy, and vain?
God creates the rules. You say he loves us and wants us in his paradise. If he's all-powerful I'm sure he can find away to let us in and forgive us from our sins like Jesus does but without Jesus. If he can't do that, that he isn't all powerful.
If he can, than he cares more about people worshipping him than about the people themselves.
would you forgive a person who stole from you? would you forgive a person who burned your house down? that's just to show you that God's love is not limited.
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he perfectly designed perfect beings who later made a wrong choice thus putting them in an imperfect state. god didn't do this to his creation, we did it to ourselves. i've been saying that going on 500 posts. convince me that a God who knows everything and who is all-powerful defaults him as being responsible for our choices.
i'm not taking that away from you. you can think it's crappy if you'd like. all i know is it's the only resolution in this case. and besides even the "few" don't know it as a fact, they only profess to believe and have faith in it even though it might not be true afterall. that's faith.
again, God can't let you enter because of your unbelief. how is he going to force you to accept it? you have to accept that you are under sin... God will not allow sin to enter the kingdom. unfortunately, because you are an unbeliever, you don't want to believe in jesus. Jesus is the only guy who can justify your sins.
sure, he is all-powerful and he could force you against your will anytime he wanted to... but he's not gonna do that, cause he'd rather you do it in your own will. and again you'd still need to be cleansed from your sins. so i'm assuming that he would have to wash your sins away even against your will. it only depends if your attitude would then be willing to accept him by then.... cos bottom line is, he's not gonna have someone in heaven who doesn't wanna be there.
Say you create a human. You design it perfectly and part of that perfect design is free will. Now, this perfect being chooses with its own free will, something you hadn't counted on, it chooses sin, it chooses to go against you...
But if you already know you creation will do this before you even make it, how can you say it's perfect?
I'm not saying he's responsible, per se. I'm saying he created imperfect beings.
Yes, he can. He's all-powerful.
There are plenty of people who believe in god and won't get into heaven, all muslims for example, the jews as well and people who are not in a religion, like our friend soulsinging who has yet another relationship with god.
He doesn't have to force these people to believe, they already believe. So why can't he let them into heaven, he created the place, he makes the rules and he wants them there!
God can cleanse their sins like Jesus would (and it wouldn't be against their will).
Ah, I see. God isn't all-powerful. If he was he could justify your sins like Jesus can. I guess he can't, that's why he sends good, honest muslims, jews, people with personal relationships with god to hell so they can rot, even though he wants them in his kingdom.
We're back at the conditional love, but I need to read that book chopitdown suggested before I make more comments about god's love.
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no he can't. he doesn't impose his powers on your own mind. one thing i'll admit though, he is kinda greedy cause it also mentions, "I do not share my glory with anyone."
it's kinda like, "my god is bigger than your god." ok, that's fine. but my god doesn't force anybody to believe either. he gives them a choice.... and i'm sure taht even soulsinging's god would require you to believe in order to participate in whatever type of blessings it requires.... or i don't know. maybe not.
see, that's the thing. jesus already forgave us of our sins... but you would still have to believe in jesus. technically, it's our unbelief that ultimately condemns us.
well, basically, again, their unbelief in Jesus, or for what he has already accomplished is what will ultimately condemn them. Like I already said, God has already forgiven our sins but it's only up to you to believe or not. and this is acquired when we come to jesus, cause he's the only one who'll make us understand it.
well, go ahead. i bet he'll probably say the same thing and i wouldn't be surprised. cause we're not back to conditional love. we're still in the same spot. God has defeated sin through his son Jesus Christ when he was nailed on the cross despite our transgessions and failures so that he may redeem us. nothing's been challenged yet.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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I do believe in God. I don't have a religion, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God(though possible, I somehow don't think so), and I don't believe any religion is wrong in their beliefs.
I think that all religions, whether they know it or not, all have the same God. The native americans worshiped the sun, earth, animals, etc, which is all nature. Which according to christians God created and should be respected and marveled at. To me, that's the same God. They just chose to honor him differently.
I don't think there is a hell. Because my God, who loves everyone no matter what, wouldn't do that to someone. He doesn't care what I do really. As long as I don't cause harm to people, and always have the best intentions.
He doesn't meddle in peoples business either. He doesn't cause natural disasters, or save someones house, or whatever. He's got better things to do, and bigger problems. Like wars, corruption in power, etc.
I don't think that doing the right thing should have to do with God or religion. People shouldn't even put much thought into God, or Jesus, or religion. My God just wants me to live and do the right thing because it's natural for me to do it. Not because I was thinking "what would god want me to do", or "according to the bible it's the right thing to do". To me when you think about God when doing good things it almost makes the good deed wrong(?), if that makes any sense.
Anyways, there's more I would like to say, but I've already said too much. I hope this makes sense to some
ill tell you why it is like that. becos god, the alpha and the omega, the creator, etc,... he MADE it that way.
there is no other answer. the only other possibility is that there is a power GREATER than your god that made rules your god has to obey. im guessing that is not a contention you are comfortable making, is it?
no, not at all.... i'm not claiming anything. i respect others beliefs and opinions. i don't feel the need to "defend" my god. like my father said once, "dios no necesita abejas pa nadar" or "god doesn't need a lifesaver to swim." it kinda sounds more clever in english, actually, now that i think about it. all i know, is that this god i'm claiming to believe is kinda a surrealistic god. a god who transcends time and all. someone who doesn't make sense with our human minds and probably will take more than a single lifetime to ever understand.
and a child is supposed to know which dude to believe... how? you think it's perfectly loving for the mother to say "well my 5 year old child, it was a noble effort, i know you wanted to come home to me, but the guy you came to my house with is the wrong guy. so im sorry, but you just earned a lifetime of being sodomized cos now you're his. sorry" *slam*
yeah, that's love man.
definitely not.
and im saying the WHY is becos god is as vain and petty as the average human. as i have been saying from the beginning. im offering a theory. your only theory is that you dont know. even the answer the bible gives supports my theory... becos god wants a bunch of honor, glory, and praise. even you have posted in here that he is greedy about lapping up all the worship in the world.
funny you mention that last part. becos the god I believe in transcends all and doesn't make sense to human thought. yet here you are, writing post after post claiming that you can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us, while im the one insisting we have no clue what god wants from us.
but no one is supposed to know anything. that's not what i've been saying. i'm saying the bible asks that you have faith and besides it wasn't god who sent out all those "dudes" in the first place. the bible even says that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light deceiving people.
you're forgetting that while god put the cookies there and said, "for in the day that you eat of those cookies thereof, you shall surely die." and not to mention that there were some other cookies that offered eternal life. but they chose to eat the cookies that "brought death." because the serpent told them they'd be like gods, knowing right from wrong. or in this case of the mother and her 5 kids, the stinky little rat that runs in and out of the kitchen from the mom's house that told the kids this lie.
god didn't make it hard for us, man. not as you make is sound. in the old days, god sent prophets after prophets, prophesying and doing miracles of all kinds so that they would believe. still nothing. that was back in the old days of moses and abraham and david. it was like the mother sending out those kids for eating the cookies but sent out messengers performing miracles, signs and wonders of all kinds, . not to mention that the only reason why God kicked adam and eve out of the garden of eden was so that they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and would live eternally in that state of corruption.
how would you apply that to the analogy of the mother and her 5 kids? you see how minimize the situation? i'd say the mother might've made some good cookies and some bad one's too, because let's just say those got burned. let's say she put the bad cookies on the counter and said, "don't eat from these, or they'll give you the cooties." but instead of eating the good cookies that were all around the kitchen they ate the bad one's. that's how the biblical story goes.
what if jesus is the devil disguised as god? and the bible is one of his deceptions? i just blew my own mind
i'd guess you'd have to see for yourself to know if jesus is the right "dude". but i'm guessing that's not happening. cause it sounds like you want me to PROVE to you that this is the right way in order for you to end up believing... or i don't know. i really don't see the point of your post on this one.
in any event, you're still left with the choice of finding out for yourself if jesus is the right dude. if you want to judge the bible by the weak, "but how the hell will we know who the right guy is?" well then you'd never even know cause of your unbelief. the bible doesn't give you a hard time. all it tells you is, "take it or leave it." if you want to leave it because you think this god is vain and a prick or whatever then it's not wasting it's time with you.
i mean, you've already said yourself in other posts that if it turns out this god is real that's not a god you'd want any part of so you'd rather "spend your lifetime being sodomized." well, good luck with that. the way i see it, you haven't even opened up for a single second.
i don't know your question doesn't make that much sense.
not at all. you can't prove it's the right way, no one can. it's a matter of faith. all ive been saying is a god that lets 80% of humanity burn in hell for eternity doesn't seem like such a nice guy to me. i don't care what your excuses for him are, it's weak. either he's limited in his powers and can't save these people, or his love is not as great as you claim and he doesn't care to.
i leave it becos it doesn't make sense to me, for many of the reasons i've discussed. i cannot believe in a religion that claims god loves humans, but is still going to allow the overwhelming majority of them to spend eternity in torment. it is a ridiculous contention and convinces me the religion is a crock.
neither have you. you've never been willing to even acknowledge that anything in the bible might be remotely confusing, slightly contradictory, or that any of your arguments are circular. i'm well versed in your christian logic dances. you've said nothing i've not heard before. if you had anything fresh, i'd be willing to consider it. but this is the same old batch of illogical excuses i've heard so many times and fail to find convincing or compelling at all.
it's not supposed to make sense. it's what we in the secular world call a joke. it's supposed to be fun, cos in my religion, i believe god wants us laughing, smiling, and being happy. not mourning how horribly sinful and awful we are.
it's like a concert.... they provide free tickets but you have to get 'em before a certain time but you procrastinate and say, "nah, it's probably a trick to get you to buy something else or something...." then when the moment comes and you find out it was real you go up to the gates and they say, "sorry dude but no more tickets... can't come to the show."
yeah, you'd be flipping those dudes off or probably trying to convince them to let you in.... yeah, you'd think they were punks.... but think on the other side... what about those other people that believed? you think that's fair for them? especially since you "weren't cleansed" you can't enter with that state of corruption to the show.
what's even funnier though is that i believe that through christ these mysteries are made known to us. yeah, i don't know everything... i never claimed i did. but it's awefully good to know that i believe in someone who'll give me those answers.
and btw, i'm only posting what you have been misrepresenting of the bible. i'm not "claiming that i can make sense of god and understand exactly what he wants from us". no, i'm not "claiming", i'm "reading"
yes, God wants you to accomplish a good life.... yes, god wants you to live a pure and holy life... cause he doesn't want anything bad corrupting heaven. but he knows that we are incapable of doing such things so he offers jesus. how the hell is that a prick, vain and petty god? explain that to me
yeah, spend eternity in torment because of their own choices they've taken upon themselves. all well, too bad, that's what they wanted.
no, no, i'm definitely willing to acknowledge how many things are remotely confusing, or contradictory... point in case, that's what i'm doing. you're saying that this part of the bible doesn't make sense... the "loving" and "just" god part. and i'm discussing this with you. i've given you answers but you say they aren't enough.... beats me. then you go on and tell me that my arguments are circling.... well, they wouldn't be only if you don't make the same arguments over and over :rolleyes:
i know though.... i see it everyday the cause and effects of sin. i see it at work. i see the choices they've taken on themselves. i see it on me too... cause i know that this restless body is corrupted. and so is yours. and so is this planet. wars, hurricanes, sickness, famines, earthquakes, tsunamis.... all an imperfect sign of life. but the life that god offers me through christ holds no such sorrows.
Forget the analogy, then. Here's what I don't get.
God created everything and knows everything, past, present, future, right?
Ok, then he made Adam and Eve while he already knew they'd eat the forbidden fruit, which he also made. And he made the serpent as well, right.
God is contradicting himself here, there's no other way around it. Forget Jesus and all, he fucked up the moment he made Adam and Eve.
He wants his people to live in a perfect paradise without sin, yet he makes people who will sin, he knew this even before he made them. What's more, he must have made 'evil' as well.
No? Answer these questions for me please?
Does god know everything?
Is god all-powerful?
Does god want his people to be in paradise?
Did god make man?
Did he already know man would sin?
He must have created sin as well, no?
Doesn't sound like he made it particulary easy.
Then he comes up with an ultimate plan (although, his plan isn't really as succesful, but he knows that).
There can only be one god according to the bible so therefore all the other gods do not exist, like Allah, Brahma...
But what are these people worshipping then? Let's see, this wonderful life, they are thankful to be alive, they all worship the creator but under a different name...
That's what he wanted, more or less. Surely he can't expect that his imperfect beings, which he made this way, get the names, right? So they worship him, they believe in him... yet he cannot forgive them. He cannot say to them, hey fellows ... I really admire your faith, that's awesome! You've been good and showed you are loyal to me, even though you thought my name was Bob or Dirk instead of God, no biggie... here swoosh away with your sins (which was sort of my fault in the first place, you know).
No he says, although you had tremendous faith in me (but you called me Allah, what's in a name, eh?) I have to send you to hell (you get it, right you did this to yourself, somehow). Seriously, what do you want me to do? Cleanse your sins? I cannot do that, what do you think I am? So kind of all-powerful being? I know you lead a good and honest life, that you helped people and were kind, kind of like my son Jesus here... but seriously it's out of my hands.
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no, see, i guess that's where you're having a hard time. sin never originated from God. The Bible says that sin originated from the devil, not from God. Sin, I guess, is an "illusion" of some kind. you know, like the analogy i made about the matrix. Paul speaks about it in many many passages. i guess it caused like some kind of chemical reaction of some sort when Eve believed in the serpents lie, or somethin. the point is that once they believed in the serpent that's when their "eyes became naked" and entered a corrupted state.
God didn't originally create us sinful creatures. He created us perfect beings. True, God knew this would happen. That is why in his all-knowing and all-powerful plan he planned Jesus.
yes yes yes yes yes no, read above
probably not, i would agree it's not easy. i mean, humanly it's not, but spiritually it is. (that's a whole other thing but i see your point)
ok, what's the plan? the jesus plan? no, the jesus plan is succesful.... the jesus plan already succeeded at the cross. it's only up to you to believe it. but once you believe it's simply given to you.
it would be nice, yes. but bob or dirk never achieved a perfect life for us like jesus did. they didn't pay a ransom or rescue us from sin. God can't say "swoosh away with your sins" cause of our own unbelief. See, it was our own belief that destituted us from God and because of our own disbelief and disobedience that sin entered. God cannot quarrel with us as we are one-on-one for about maybe 3 reasons that i can think of.
1. God hates sin
2. We'd dissolve at the moment we'd be before his presence
3. Our unbelief will keep us away from God in the first place
see, God is Spirit. unseeable, unattainable, ungraspable... at least not with our human eyes, or human hands and human understanding. in order for us to have access to God we'd have to enter a spiritual state. unfortunately, because we are already contaminated (mind you, not a literal contamination but figuratively speaking) inside and out (mind and body) we wouldn't be able to see God. read Genesis again right after Adam and Eve sinned God says, "Where art thou?" if someone were to just read it at first glance they'd think, "wait! doesn't god know everything already? why then is he asking for adam?" well, we'd have to understand that it's a spiritual meaning. and the meaning was that Adam's spirit was no longer in contact with God himself. He had already entered into a destitute realm.
no, this is completely your perspective which i can follow but you'd have to speak within biblical context in order to appreciate its message, or at least understand.
Yes, God forgives your sins. But you have to go to Jesus, since he's the only guy who never even told a single lie. Nothing is out of God's hands except our own will.
in all honesty though, read paul's letters. they explain it better than me. and the bible does hold answers to you and soulsinging's questions... i'm getting tired and i've been as patient as i could. here's a scripture in Romans 3:5,6 read it
Yes, I have read the Bible, god wants to wipe away man because he was sorry he made them, except for Noah who has to build an arc.
But it doesn't make sense to me. Not at all. All this trial and error doesn't sound like the work of a perfect being that knows everything.
He makes man, knows they'll sin and knows he'll have to flood them. How does that make sense? That's what a human would do.
Something can exist that god did not create and that he did not foresee? How is that possible?
God didn't create everything. God create almost everything, then. Ok, fine by me but again this sounds like a contradiction.
I'm going to make an analogy here a very simple one. Say you pour some chemicals together which you know will explode 5 days from now. Are you saying that you didn't make an explosive, then, even though you know it will explode?
I disagree again. It's only up to you to believe it. We talked about this before in a biblical sense it's easy, but in reality it is not. And god knows this and knew this. Perhaps he just doesn't care.
That tells me one thing, god is not all-powerful or he doesn't really want us in his paradise. Perhaps that's two things.
Perhaps he wants us there but his vanity is even stronger than his love.
Why does that matter that someone goes through Jesus? Why does it matter to god? He knows what's in our hearts.
But if a person believes in god, loves god and does everything for god, but happens to be a muslim, he goes directly to hell. Even if he devoted his life to helping others, loving others, not telling a single lie... straight to hell like Hitler.
But a vile murderer, who killed and raped, who set fire to churches but in the end found Jesus (sincerely) will be forgiven and enter the kingdom?
edit:
I have read the entire bible. There's not a single answer in it. Romans 3:5,6 how does that answer any questions.
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that doesn't even make sense.
here's one... you're in college. you've got a guy, one of your best friends your whole life. you grew up with him. he throws a party at his house. you knock at the door and he says "sorry dude, im only allowed to hang out with my brothers from the phi si fraternity from now on, so we can never be seen together again. we're still best friends though." you gonna believe he really cares about you and you are important to him? or are you gonna think he's a dick? if not, you have a pretty twisted idea of love and friendship.
you need to rest before you sleep apparently. this makes no sense. "i have answers, i dont have answers. i have no theories, the bible gives me all the theories." i explained exactly why i thought your god is a prick, quite clearly too. even those who disagree with me can figure out what i'm saying.
ill make a new one as soon as you actually respond with a sensible answer to any of my arguments. ycos they are circular, becos we keep coming back to the same premise. here, i'll show you:
1) we'd burn up if we entered heaven eh? god created heaven and the rules it operates by. maybe he could change those rules.
2) "god gave us jesus." god gave us a way out of sin. HE decided it would be jesus. he could have picked any way he liked to redeem humanity. he opted for jesus, a tiny minority religion that he knew would have no effect on the vast majority of the world's population and demand that billions of people who were already worshipping him would have to abandon their loved traditions and values to worship him in a different way. god decided on how we are cleansed. you refuse to confront this point and consistently dodge it by saying crap like "it's our choice." yes, it's our choice to take it. but GOD decided what the choices are... jesus and heaven, or no jesus and hell. he could have allowed for our redemption any way he wanted (magic water, buddah, smoking weed, whatever, he's god). he decided on jesus. he gave us one option for life in heaven, and one option only. i admit, it is our choice to take it. but he still made it that way. in his unlimited power, he could have made dozens of ways into heave, he chose to only offer one.
premise:
god is the creator and decided how things are and operate. every time i bring this up, you duck the question and talk about our choices. sure, we can choose to accept jesus and go to heaven. but we cannot choose to accept buddha and go to heaven. becos god decided he didnt want it that way and would only accept jesus. anytime i bring this up, you can't answer it. you make up nonsense about blood and so on and then 2 sentences later claim some bullshit humility about not understanding god's mysterious ways.
i don't see the sorrow in that business. it is just life. and my body is perfectly fine... it was briefly corrupted that one time, but i got a cream for that.
Yes, God knows everything and knew he'd have to flood them, but bear in mind that from what we gather in the bible the people of that time were evil. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." I don't know but from that scripture it's telling me that it was some pretty serious stuff. Like the last scripture I provided (I don't know if you read it) Paul asks, "how then will God judge the world?" I mean at this point if we're looking into the bible and trying to understand its perspective we'd have to assume that this God is just and rightly judging the world.
I guess that's where you have a hard time. You already come with a fixed mind trying to disprove the bible, so therefore you'll have a hard time believing that God will judge the world the right way. Ultimately it's like a fixed outcome which makes you end up not believing it whatsoever. Know what i mean? That's why I'm telling you that you need to open your mind and leave out all your preconceptions about it for just a moment. that's only if you really want to understand it.
well, nobody ever said God created sin. I guess for the most part we're assuming that everybody understands that little biblical concept.
but it's like the matrix analogy i made. in essence, sin is not real. a teacher once said to me, "sin is a false identity." sin is only in our thoughts and minds. can i show you where sin is? no. can i prove to you sin is real? no. that's because it's really not real. it's a spiritual thing, my friend. and i understand you'll have a hard time understanding it.
that is why when christ came john writes in I John, "but we know that the son of God is come and has given us an understanding to know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ..." meaning that Jesus is the one who will lead us to the reality, rather than this illusion that we're in.
well, God's not the one who put the chemical "sin" in the mix. so it's more like this....
i'm mixing some chemicals to create something all on my own. then i knowingly know that someone is going to mix another chemical, which will screw up everything and cause this explosion. it's not gonna matter to me entirely, sure i'll be disappointed but ultimately i'll be the brains in the situation and will fix it up anyhow.
but why did i allow this to happen? haven't you ever seen a mother and a child when the mother repeatedly tells the boy not to jump on the but he does it anyway? the mother knows that if he keeps doing it he'll fall and bump his head that's why she keeps telling the boy not to do it. but then finally she allows him to fall and bump his head. so then when he does he'll understand what his mother was saying all along.
that's really how God's perspective is only unlike the mother God himself tells the boy, "don't jump on the bed for in the day that you do you will surely fall and bump your head."
maybe the biblical sense is the reality sense? maybe your reality is not a reality at all? who knows? i can't answer that for you... that's why i leave it entirely up to you to open your mind or not.
yes, God knew this and he does care.
before anything, i'd really love for you to answer this question. how does it make god not all-powerful, greedy, and vain?
because this human being jesus achieved a perfect life. yes, he knows what's in our hearts... apparently what is in our hearts is vile and corrupted. that's why it matters to God, because he sees sin eating away inside you... so that's why he puts jesus there to rescue you from it.
yes... because he was still under the law of sin and death.
would you forgive a person who stole from you? would you forgive a person who burned your house down? that's just to show you that God's love is not limited.
paul asked a rhetorical question to yours. you asked "how is god merciful and loving but yet sends people to hell if they don't agree with him?" he responds, "how then will God judge the world?"
no, figured i knew what you were saying since the first time i read your post referring to this concept of yours and i explained why is not quite clearly it's not so...
true though.... i don't have all the answers, but i got this one answer
also, i have no theories... cause they're all in the bible, they're not mine...
how does that not make any sense?
you should really listen to yourself coming from my side... no offense though.
that's the way he made them, that's the way it's gonna be. i bet he'd be doing us more damage by trying to change his rules rather than helping us.
yes, only jesus my friend. because jesus as a single human being like you and i achieved a perfect life for us. what much more do you want him to do? jesus! he gave you a perfect life!
i can't answer it?????? what the hell do you think i've been doing staying up at 3 or 4 am answering your questions. GEEZ at least give me that much...
but you answered it yourself.... buddha never died on a cross and resurrected from the dead!
God didn't decide and make how we as humans and individuals operate or respond to certain things in life! that happens entirely by our own choice... and i've agreed God has no power over this. tell me, from your understanding and your logic, if God is all-powerful does he decide when i scratch my balls? or when i fart? geez... man, just cause he's all-powerful and all-knowing doesn't mean he's planned every single event in the face of human history.
or point in case, an atheist. did god decide that he/she would be an atheist?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. But it's not the case.
Did you try this?
Is this in the bible? I never read that. I guess it's an assumption.
Funny, that you say I have a closed mind because I don't agree with you and don't believe in the bible.
God creates the rules. You say he loves us and wants us in his paradise. If he's all-powerful I'm sure he can find away to let us in and forgive us from our sins like Jesus does but without Jesus. If he can't do that, that he isn't all powerful.
If he can, than he cares more about people worshipping him than about the people themselves.
Yes.
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