i disagree. God does teach me things. Just like my children don't understand all my lessons, or even that i'm attempting to teach them, we as humans just don't realise.
Furthermore, for billions of people worldwide who hold a theistic worldview, it isn't hard at all to believe. i understand for you, many others, it may not be so easy, but for, literally billons, it is fairly simple. Besides, i wonder, is faith supposed to be easy? If it were, what would it really mean? i would argue that it is those who have struggled with faith, and then find it, that have the strongest, most sincere faith! if God were to hand me a blu ray dvd disc containing footage of him creating the universe, wouldn't my faith have less meaning?
As far as geography, sure it has some impact on the direction one's faith takes, but, i think you generalize and over simplify it a bit. You must remember, that there are plenty of CHristians in the "Muslim world". There are plenty of Christians in the "Buddhist and Hindu worlds" just as there are plenty of Muslims right here in this part of the world. As a matter of fact, i would argue that the Christians in Afghanistan, or China are probably some of the best Christians. There faith is probably stronger than my own.
i was not born and raised a Christian. There was a time in my life when i was "searching". Looking for direction in my theistic worldview. i studied the koran a bit. i studied buddhism a bit. in college, i had a good buddy from Afghanistan, a nice Muslim lad, who invited me to mosque on several occasions. i often entertained the thought. Christianity is not something i picked from a hat or simply adopted because it was the predominant faith in my homeland.
I think your faith is in the tradition of storytelling.
Humans have been telling stories to each other since human's could tell stories. You are among many that have a deep appreciation for the art and tradition of storytelling.
Humans have been telling stories to each other since human's could tell stories. You are among many that have a deep appreciation for the art and tradition of storytelling.
Whereas i do enjoy a good yarn, i'm afraid i'm still not getting your point. i love Tolkien, but don't spend my life searching for the "one ring to rule them all". i sense sarcasm in your comment. Sarcasm coupled with an unbridled desire to poke fun at and make snide comments about my sincere faith. Oh, well. Have a go.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Furthermore, for billions of people worldwide who hold a theistic worldview, it isn't hard at all to believe. i understand for you, many others, it may not be so easy, but for, literally billons, it is fairly simple. Besides, i wonder, is faith supposed to be easy?
How easy would it be for you to stop believing Jesus is our savior and stop believing in god, and start believing that Brahma created the world or that Allah did.
That's how easy it is for those non-christians to believe in God and accept Jesus as their savior.
As far as geography, sure it has some impact on the direction one's faith takes, but, i think you generalize and over simplify it a bit. You must remember, that there are plenty of CHristians in the "Muslim world". There are plenty of Christians in the "Buddhist and Hindu worlds" just as there are plenty of Muslims right here in this part of the world. As a matter of fact, i would argue that the Christians in Afghanistan, or China are probably some of the best Christians. There faith is probably stronger than my own.
Plenty?
Anyway, I don't disagree with what you are saying here. But deadnothingbetter said the right path is easy, that god loves us and gave us a way out, the right path through Jesus.
I said it wasn't simple at all. Again, how easy would it be for you to abandon your beliefs?
And I certainly don't think I'm oversimplifying anything. Do you think it's a coincidence that - what 95% - of the people born into christian family stay christian and that the same percentage of people who were born into muslim families stay muslim?
Do you honestly think they all considered all the possibilities, unbiased and coincidentally all found out the religion they were raised with, that's all around them, that has been part of their traditions for years is the right one?
I find that very hard to believe.
i was not born and raised a Christian. There was a time in my life when i was "searching". Looking for direction in my theistic worldview. i studied the koran a bit. i studied buddhism a bit. in college, i had a good buddy from Afghanistan, a nice Muslim lad, who invited me to mosque on several occasions. i often entertained the thought. Christianity is not something i picked from a hat or simply adopted because it was the predominant faith in my homeland.
You were already influenced by Christianity because it was the predominant faith in your homeland, whether you admit it or not. You were probably more familiar with Christianity than with any other religion - correct me if I'm wrong here, this isn't just about you of course, but about people who grew up in similar situations. Could it be that because of the ubiquity of Christianity in your country, you were more open to it?
It's a question.
And also, how can you know you picked the right one, you said you studied the other ones a bit. That doesn't really sound fair. Why not study them as thoroughly as you studied Christianity.
Whereas i do enjoy a good yarn, i'm afraid i'm still not getting your point. i love Tolkien, but don't spend my life searching for the "one ring to rule them all". i sense sarcasm in your comment. Sarcasm coupled with an unbridled desire to poke fun at and make snide comments about my sincere faith. Oh, well. Have a go.
Not at all.
I'll try a different approach.
You are probably at least a little bit educated on some things Native American, no? Then you would know that their culture is rife with all kinds of fantastic tales as a way to explain the environment around them.
I mean, there is a giant bear to explain the "claw" marks on Devils Tower, there is a coyote running across the sky chasing a rabbit that is the sun and the moon...and on and on, you get my drift.
I don't believe the native american actually believed these stories...they were told to the children and each other as a way of ...storytelling, for the sake of storytelling.
I don't think the Christian culture is any different.
How easy would it be for you to stop believing Jesus is our savior and stop believing in god, and start believing that Brahma created the world or that Allah did.
That's how easy it is for those non-christians to believe in God and accept Jesus as their savior.
Plenty?
Anyway, I don't disagree with what you are saying here. But deadnothingbetter said the right path is easy, that god loves us and gave us a way out, the right path through Jesus.
I said it wasn't simple at all. Again, how easy would it be for you to abandon your beliefs?
And I certainly don't think I'm oversimplifying anything. Do you think it's a coincidence that - what 95% - of the people born into christian family stay christian and that the same percentage of people who were born into muslim families stay muslim?
Do you honestly think they all considered all the possibilities, unbiased and coincidentally all found out the religion they were raised with, that's all around them, that has been part of their traditions for years is the right one?
I find that very hard to believe.
You were already influenced by Christianity because it was the predominant faith in your homeland, whether you admit it or not. You were probably more familiar with Christianity than with any other religion - correct me if I'm wrong here, this isn't just about you of course, but about people who grew up in similar situations. Could it be that because of the ubiquity of Christianity in your country, you were more open to it?
It's a question.
And also, how can you know you picked the right one, you said you studied the other ones a bit. That doesn't really sound fair. Why not study them as thoroughly as you studied Christianity.
i wish i knew how to do that break up a post and respond piece by piece thing, but i don't. i'll start by saying that you are misundrstood about me. in fact, i rejected Christianity throughout most of my formative years. i was more verbally critical of it than you are now. If i was in fact influenced, it was in the opposite direction.
As far as the other stuff, it all starts with faith. Muslims believe God created the universe. They call him Allah. Christians believe God created the Universe, the call him, amomgst other things, God. God, Allah, Jehovah, etc. all different names for the same being. That is not where beliefs differ.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i wish i knew how to do that break up a post and respond piece by piece thing, but i don't.
: That's the code, without the spaces. Put the text you want to quote between those things
i'll start by saying that you are misundrstood about me. in fact, i rejected Christianity throughout most of my formative years. i was more verbally critical of it than you are now. If i was in fact influenced, it was in the opposite direction.
That's cool, read my pm, this confirms what I said even more.
See, I'm speaking in the context of reality. The bible does make it sound easy to get into heaven, but it's not easy.
i understand you... and i'm not taking away that right from you or condemning it. true... the bible makes it sound easy, and it's not easy.
i know that you speak in the context of reality... my only intentions were to point out where soulsinging was reading into the bible wrong. kinda twisting it a bit...
So my point is, no it's not easy and I'm saying this because you said it was. Sure it's easy when you are born into a Christian family or grew up with Christian values, it's not easy when you were born into a muslim family.
what i meant by easy... was in context of the bible. meaning that God's only favor that he asks of you is to believe and that's all it's required to get into heaven. of course, we can go on for hours on this dispute... but in the end, all it's asking is to believe... then you go to heaven. there's no labor... no nothing. that's what i meant by easy.
That is a fact, the rest is not.
I never said the rest is. i was referring to the problems we face in our daily life... those things are what the bible calls an effect of sin.... of course, i can't prove it to you... but at least we can both agree that we struggle in our daily living.
So he's only responsible for a few things, conveniently, the good things?
He's responsible for everythign created. but let's get back into the context... he's not responsible for the choices that we make... ultimately the choices we make lead to perishable things.
You said he didn't mean things to be this way. Obviously he did.
you ask, how can God be all knowing and all powerful and yet not be responsible?
my question to you is how does it default God as being responsible simply because he's all knowing and all powerful? he's given me choices in life and nothing good or nothing bad is debted to him... simply the opportunity that he's allowed for me to make those choices.
That's all fine and dandy when you're a Christian.
of course.
I can't agree with the statement that all beliefs make perfect sense.
you can't agree that all religions make sense in the context of the religion? i dunno... i mean, to me it really doesn't matter. it's not like i question the dali lama and his beliefs... and i'm sure it all makes sense in the context of the faith. it doesn't mean i believe it.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
So what is it about this story of Adam and Eve that appeals to you?
To me it would be the naked man and woman thing. Eden, two alone as one, Rock hard and dripping wet, Eden. That sounds healthy to me in any way imaginable.
Apparently, what you're saying is that, in your opinion, sex wasn't intended to take place between these two. Life was perfect, humans were perfect, then when they disobeyed, they had to go and have that awful sex, like it was a bad thing.
I don't understand that.
haha... totally wasn't expecting that. but i feel you...
i personally have no reason to argue that maybe sex was involved long before procreating... i dunno... it's only me though
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
this may have been asked before but i'm not reading back through this whole thread. to those that believe in god: if god gave us the brains to use reason and logic why would he/she/it want us to suspend that reason and logic in order to have faith in it's existance? and who would want to go to a heaven full of unresonable, illogical people?
this may have been asked before but i'm not reading back through this whole thread. to those that believe in god: if god gave us the brains to use reason and logic why would he/she/it want us to suspend that reason and logic in order to have faith in it's existance? and who would want to go to a heaven full of unresonable, illogical people?
i haven't suspended my logic...
i use it everyday... in my living... even to understand the concepts of God.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i think abel was killed before he was able to procreate.
and while i'm at it, why did God if he was so benevolent, accept abel's offering, but turned his back to cain's?
in biblical terms, cain's offering wasn't something that came from the heart. his heart was already corrupt and vile.... that's why he ended up killing his brother.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
in biblical terms, cain's offering wasn't something that came from the heart. his heart was already corrupt and vile.... that's why he ended up killing his brother.
but perhaps if God had shown compassion towards cain, things might have turned out different.
and how was cain's heart already corrupted? up until the point where he killed his brother, he'd done nothing wrong. nor was it even suggested that he had.
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Anyway, I don't disagree with what you are saying here. But deadnothingbetter said the right path is easy, that god loves us and gave us a way out, the right path through Jesus.
I said it wasn't simple at all. Again, how easy would it be for you to abandon your beliefs?
easy to get to heaven... as in just believing. there's nothing hard in that.
i dunno... but a professor once asked a question in regards to my faith. "just believe? that's it? all I have to do is believe in Jesus and I'm saved? Sounds too easy to even believe."
so i agreed with him...
but i know what you mean... out of all religions how is this one right? so yeah, it's hard to conclude that this one is the truth out of all of 'em claiming to be true... but that's not what i was saying... i was saying, that it's easy to achieve salvation in a biblical sense.
You were already influenced by Christianity because it was the predominant faith in your homeland, whether you admit it or not. You were probably more familiar with Christianity than with any other religion - correct me if I'm wrong here, this isn't just about you of course, but about people who grew up in similar situations. Could it be that because of the ubiquity of Christianity in your country, you were more open to it?
It's a question.
And also, how can you know you picked the right one, you said you studied the other ones a bit. That doesn't really sound fair. Why not study them as thoroughly as you studied Christianity.
or.... perhaps a personal experience he encountered might serve as the solution to the equation. perhaps?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
but perhaps if God had shown compassion towards cain, things might have turned out different.
and how was cain's heart already corrupted? up until the point where he killed his brother, he'd done nothing wrong. nor was it even suggested that he had.
compassion? what do you mean? all he did was deny his offering... maybe cain should've gone and take a breath of fresh air and cooled off a bit, then make another one that came from the heart.
it's like if someone were to call you a pal only because it benefits them... you'd probably deny their friendship and think that it's fake. then find a real friend who is a genuine person. it wouldn't be your fault if the other person gets jealous and does something psychotic like kill your friend, would it?
the fact that he was feeling insecure cause his offering wasn't accepted is evidence enough that suggests he wasn't already there in the head...
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
compassion? what do you mean? all he did was deny his offering... maybe cain should've gone and take a breath of fresh air and cooled off a bit, then make another one that came from the heart.
it's like if someone were to call you a pal only because it benefits them... you'd probably deny their friendship and think that it's fake. then find a real friend who is a genuine person. it wouldn't be your fault if the other person gets jealous and does something psychotic like kill your friend, would it?
the fact that he was feeling insecure cause his offering wasn't accepted is evidence enough that suggests he wasn't already there in the head...
i was thinking that perhaps this was a test for cain. which obviuosly he failed. i just didn't get why God rejected cain's offering and then went and accepted abel's. and then had the hide to ask cain what was wrong, when clearly he already knew what the problem was. i guess i'm not getting the whole lack of respect to cain thing. as far as i can see cain made his offering in good faith. but then as i said before, perhaps it was a test, cause surely God knew of cain's nature.
hear my name
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i was thinking that perhaps this was a test for cain. which obviuosly he failed. i just didn't get why God rejected cain's offering and then went and accepted abel's. and then had the hide to ask cain what was wrong, when clearly he already knew what the problem was. i guess i'm not getting the whole lack of respect to cain thing. as far as i can see cain made his offering in good faith. but then as i said before, perhaps it was a test, cause surely God knew of cain's nature.
God asked cain what was wrong before he murdered his brother... so in that case, he was simply asking cain, "what are you getting mad for? and what's with the long face? if you do things the right way then wouldn't you be accepted? and if you don't do well, then sin is in your heart." Genesis 4:6,7 (paraphrased in my version )
i mean, it's basically it... that's why his offering wasn't accepted because his heart was already in sin... he probably had other bad things pending... he must've been jealous of his brother his entire life. that jealousy grew into bitterness, then rage, then murder. God knew what was already in his heart. how would god accept his sacrifice if he can't settle his disputes with his brother? obviously he had issues with his brother. that doesn't sound like an offering made in good faith when you hate your own brother.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
God asked cain what was wrong before he murdered his brother... so in that case, he was simply asking cain, "what are you getting mad for? and what's with the long face? if you do things the right way then wouldn't you be accepted? and if you don't do well, then sin is in your heart." Genesis 4:6,7 (paraphrased in my version )
i mean, it's basically it... that's why his offering wasn't accepted because his heart was already in sin... he probably had other bad things pending... he must've been jealous of his brother his entire life. that jealousy grew into bitterness, then rage, then murder. God knew what was already in his heart. how would god accept his sacrifice if he can't settle his disputes with his brother? obviously he had issues with his brother. that doesn't sound like an offering made in good faith when you hate your own brother.
that's exactly what i'm talking about. he rejected cain's offering and then asked him what was wrong. he had to have known cain was down cause He rejected him whilst accepting abel's offering.
and we can't know what God knew or didn't know cause it doesn't say a thing about it in genesis. so what we have is a case of having to have faith in God that He knew that cain's heart was black. i mean in all honesty, cain's offering looked and sounded legit to me every single time i've read it. i can't project what ifs and he must've knowns into God's intentions cause hey i'm human. one minute eve has cain, then she has abel, then the boys are older and then abel's dead. so there's not a lot of scope there to work with, you know?
hear my name
take a good look
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hold my hand
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that's exactly what i'm talking about. he rejected cain's offering and then asked him what was wrong. he had to have known cain was down cause He rejected him whilst accepting abel's offering.
and we can't know what God knew or didn't know cause it doesn't say a thing about it in genesis. so what we have is a case of having to have faith in God that He knew that cain's heart was black. i mean in all honesty, cain's offering looked and sounded legit to me every single time i've read it. i can't project what ifs and he must've knowns into God's intentions cause hey i'm human. one minute eve has cain, then she has abel, then the boys are older and then abel's dead. so there's not a lot of scope there to work with, you know?
of cours God knew... so he asked him a rhetorical question. "what are you all upset about dude? how do you expect me to accept an ungenuine offering like yours?"
it's common sense. it's not this big theological debate.
edit: the bible does say God knew what was in his heart... it says so when it says, "and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." door, meaning heart.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
of cours God knew... so he asked him a rhetorical question. "what are you all upset about dude? how do you expect me to accept an ungenuine offering like yours?"
it's common sense. it's not this big theological debate.
edit: the bible does say God knew what was in his heart... it says so when it says, "and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." door, meaning heart.
well its hardly common sense otherwise i'd have gotten it right off the bat. i was thinking that he rejected cain's offering cause he was a tiller of the soil and with adam being made from dirt, and that whole being booted out of eden episode, that somehow the sins of the father were being visited upon cain, with God's rebuff of his offering. and abel was a shepherd so..... i'm perhaps taking big leaps here, but thats just the way my brain works. i'm trying to be logical in a oftentimes illogical realm.
i'm having a little trouble with genesis 4:7. this stuff is worse(meaning my comprehension of it) than shakepeare. i'm almost there but i need to think about it more.
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I feel sorry for you, and I will pray long and hard for all of you who have said you don't believe in your lord. I suppose I understand why so many of you are such liberal elitists now, as you are blinded by Satan's trickery. He has blinded you with the half truths of science, and has all of these "good" people telling you that we should accept homosexuality... what is next, multiple partners... beastiality... sex with children??? You see? Where do you limit your sins??? Without God, you have no moral basis to live your life... you can go and do whatever you want because you have nobody to hold you accountable.
Well, I am sorry to say that I won't see many of you when I receive my crowns in heaven. I just hope that God will forgive you eventually, by limiting his definition of eternity... and that you won't have to burn in hell with Satan and all of those killers, rapists, and terrorists who deserve to burn forever.
Jesus once said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me."
I feel sorry for you, and I will pray long and hard for all of you who have said you don't believe in your lord. I suppose I understand why so many of you are such liberal elitists now, as you are blinded by Satan's trickery. He has blinded you with the half truths of science, and has all of these "good" people telling you that we should accept homosexuality... what is next, multiple partners... beastiality... sex with children??? You see? Where do you limit your sins??? Without God, you have no moral basis to live your life... you can go and do whatever you want because you have nobody to hold you accountable.
Well, I am sorry to say that I won't see many of you when I receive my crowns in heaven. I just hope that God will forgive you eventually, by limiting his definition of eternity... and that you won't have to burn in hell with Satan and all of those killers, rapists, and terrorists who deserve to burn forever.
Jesus once said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me."
In Love,
brokendave
Yeah, good luck with that dave. I'm happy for you. But I can sleep at night being an "unbeliever" just fine thanks. I guess none of us will know till we're dead anyway and even then probably won't know anything so whatever floats your boat. But I live a happy life not worrying too much about what's gonna happen when I die. I'll be dead. End of story. You seem to have all this fire and brimstone shit to worry about. Must make for difficult sleep.
I feel sorry for you, and I will pray long and hard for all of you who have said you don't believe in your lord. I suppose I understand why so many of you are such liberal elitists now, as you are blinded by Satan's trickery. He has blinded you with the half truths of science, and has all of these "good" people telling you that we should accept homosexuality... what is next, multiple partners... beastiality... sex with children??? You see? Where do you limit your sins??? Without God, you have no moral basis to live your life... you can go and do whatever you want because you have nobody to hold you accountable.
Well, I am sorry to say that I won't see many of you when I receive my crowns in heaven. I just hope that God will forgive you eventually, by limiting his definition of eternity... and that you won't have to burn in hell with Satan and all of those killers, rapists, and terrorists who deserve to burn forever.
Jesus once said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me."
In Love,
brokendave
i'm certain that what you deem a sin is different to what i deem a sin. of course being an atheist the concept of sins is lost on me. but the only person i am accountable to for my actions is myself. and i have a very high standard to uphold.
but you know what amuses me is that you already assume you are going to heaven. sounds like the sin of pride to me. good luck with that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I feel sorry for you, and I will pray long and hard for all of you who have said you don't believe in your lord. I suppose I understand why so many of you are such liberal elitists now, as you are blinded by Satan's trickery. He has blinded you with the half truths of science, and has all of these "good" people telling you that we should accept homosexuality... what is next, multiple partners... beastiality... sex with children??? You see? Where do you limit your sins??? Without God, you have no moral basis to live your life... you can go and do whatever you want because you have nobody to hold you accountable.
Yeah, good luck with that dave. I'm happy for you. But I can sleep at night being an "unbeliever" just fine thanks. I guess none of us will know till we're dead anyway and even then probably won't know anything so whatever floats your boat. But I live a happy life not worrying too much about what's gonna happen when I die. I'll be dead. End of story. You seem to have all this fire and brimstone shit to worry about. Must make for difficult sleep.
I find it very unfortunate that I gave a great deal of bait to all of the atheists to dig into the farce of Christianity here, and nobody took it. I denounce the existence of ANY god of ANY kind. Although I can't say with certainty that a deity exists, I will not spend any time trying to guess on such manners.
We as atheists derive our morals from the same places that Christians do, which is not the Bible, but more of an evolution of a social conscience. For example, if you were to follow the bible as a Christian, you would kill people who deny the word of God. However, you chose not to because you pick and chose what to follow in the bible. You pick and chose these things based on the moral conscience of society.
For those of you who responded, you gave nothing of intellectual value as a response. You might as well have said nothing at all. Brush up on your social skills people, or this society will never become truly rational.
I find it very unfortunate that I gave a great deal of bait to all of the atheists to dig into the farce of Christianity here, and nobody took it. I denounce the existence of ANY god of ANY kind. Although I can't say with certainty that a deity exists, I will not spend any time trying to guess on such manners.
We as atheists derive our morals from the same places that Christians do, which is not the Bible, but more of an evolution of a social conscience. For example, if you were to follow the bible as a Christian, you would kill people who deny the word of God. However, you chose not to because you pick and chose what to follow in the bible. You pick and chose these things based on the moral conscience of society.
For those of you who responded, you gave nothing of intellectual value as a response. You might as well have said nothing at all. Brush up on your social skills people, or this society will never become truly rational.
ah yes i see it now. the big grinning smiley face. a definite giveaway.
and may i say, my zero intellectual input matched yours word for word.
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take a good look
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Comments
I think your faith is in the tradition of storytelling.
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? ? ? ? ? ?
Don't really get this.
Humans have been telling stories to each other since human's could tell stories. You are among many that have a deep appreciation for the art and tradition of storytelling.
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Whereas i do enjoy a good yarn, i'm afraid i'm still not getting your point. i love Tolkien, but don't spend my life searching for the "one ring to rule them all". i sense sarcasm in your comment. Sarcasm coupled with an unbridled desire to poke fun at and make snide comments about my sincere faith. Oh, well. Have a go.
How easy would it be for you to stop believing Jesus is our savior and stop believing in god, and start believing that Brahma created the world or that Allah did.
That's how easy it is for those non-christians to believe in God and accept Jesus as their savior.
Plenty?
Anyway, I don't disagree with what you are saying here. But deadnothingbetter said the right path is easy, that god loves us and gave us a way out, the right path through Jesus.
I said it wasn't simple at all. Again, how easy would it be for you to abandon your beliefs?
And I certainly don't think I'm oversimplifying anything. Do you think it's a coincidence that - what 95% - of the people born into christian family stay christian and that the same percentage of people who were born into muslim families stay muslim?
Do you honestly think they all considered all the possibilities, unbiased and coincidentally all found out the religion they were raised with, that's all around them, that has been part of their traditions for years is the right one?
I find that very hard to believe.
You were already influenced by Christianity because it was the predominant faith in your homeland, whether you admit it or not. You were probably more familiar with Christianity than with any other religion - correct me if I'm wrong here, this isn't just about you of course, but about people who grew up in similar situations. Could it be that because of the ubiquity of Christianity in your country, you were more open to it?
It's a question.
And also, how can you know you picked the right one, you said you studied the other ones a bit. That doesn't really sound fair. Why not study them as thoroughly as you studied Christianity.
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Not at all.
I'll try a different approach.
You are probably at least a little bit educated on some things Native American, no? Then you would know that their culture is rife with all kinds of fantastic tales as a way to explain the environment around them.
I mean, there is a giant bear to explain the "claw" marks on Devils Tower, there is a coyote running across the sky chasing a rabbit that is the sun and the moon...and on and on, you get my drift.
I don't believe the native american actually believed these stories...they were told to the children and each other as a way of ...storytelling, for the sake of storytelling.
I don't think the Christian culture is any different.
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i wish i knew how to do that break up a post and respond piece by piece thing, but i don't. i'll start by saying that you are misundrstood about me. in fact, i rejected Christianity throughout most of my formative years. i was more verbally critical of it than you are now. If i was in fact influenced, it was in the opposite direction.
As far as the other stuff, it all starts with faith. Muslims believe God created the universe. They call him Allah. Christians believe God created the Universe, the call him, amomgst other things, God. God, Allah, Jehovah, etc. all different names for the same being. That is not where beliefs differ.
That's cool, read my pm, this confirms what I said even more.
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i know that you speak in the context of reality... my only intentions were to point out where soulsinging was reading into the bible wrong. kinda twisting it a bit...
what i meant by easy... was in context of the bible. meaning that God's only favor that he asks of you is to believe and that's all it's required to get into heaven. of course, we can go on for hours on this dispute... but in the end, all it's asking is to believe... then you go to heaven. there's no labor... no nothing. that's what i meant by easy.
I never said the rest is. i was referring to the problems we face in our daily life... those things are what the bible calls an effect of sin.... of course, i can't prove it to you... but at least we can both agree that we struggle in our daily living.
He's responsible for everythign created. but let's get back into the context... he's not responsible for the choices that we make... ultimately the choices we make lead to perishable things.
you ask, how can God be all knowing and all powerful and yet not be responsible?
my question to you is how does it default God as being responsible simply because he's all knowing and all powerful? he's given me choices in life and nothing good or nothing bad is debted to him... simply the opportunity that he's allowed for me to make those choices.
of course.
you can't agree that all religions make sense in the context of the religion? i dunno... i mean, to me it really doesn't matter. it's not like i question the dali lama and his beliefs... and i'm sure it all makes sense in the context of the faith. it doesn't mean i believe it.
i personally have no reason to argue that maybe sex was involved long before procreating... i dunno... it's only me though
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i think abel was killed before he was able to procreate.
and while i'm at it, why did God if he was so benevolent, accept abel's offering, but turned his back to cain's?
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i use it everyday... in my living... even to understand the concepts of God.
but perhaps if God had shown compassion towards cain, things might have turned out different.
and how was cain's heart already corrupted? up until the point where he killed his brother, he'd done nothing wrong. nor was it even suggested that he had.
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i dunno... but a professor once asked a question in regards to my faith. "just believe? that's it? all I have to do is believe in Jesus and I'm saved? Sounds too easy to even believe."
so i agreed with him...
but i know what you mean... out of all religions how is this one right? so yeah, it's hard to conclude that this one is the truth out of all of 'em claiming to be true... but that's not what i was saying... i was saying, that it's easy to achieve salvation in a biblical sense.
or.... perhaps a personal experience he encountered might serve as the solution to the equation. perhaps?
it's like if someone were to call you a pal only because it benefits them... you'd probably deny their friendship and think that it's fake. then find a real friend who is a genuine person. it wouldn't be your fault if the other person gets jealous and does something psychotic like kill your friend, would it?
the fact that he was feeling insecure cause his offering wasn't accepted is evidence enough that suggests he wasn't already there in the head...
i was thinking that perhaps this was a test for cain. which obviuosly he failed. i just didn't get why God rejected cain's offering and then went and accepted abel's. and then had the hide to ask cain what was wrong, when clearly he already knew what the problem was. i guess i'm not getting the whole lack of respect to cain thing. as far as i can see cain made his offering in good faith. but then as i said before, perhaps it was a test, cause surely God knew of cain's nature.
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i mean, it's basically it... that's why his offering wasn't accepted because his heart was already in sin... he probably had other bad things pending... he must've been jealous of his brother his entire life. that jealousy grew into bitterness, then rage, then murder. God knew what was already in his heart. how would god accept his sacrifice if he can't settle his disputes with his brother? obviously he had issues with his brother. that doesn't sound like an offering made in good faith when you hate your own brother.
that's exactly what i'm talking about. he rejected cain's offering and then asked him what was wrong. he had to have known cain was down cause He rejected him whilst accepting abel's offering.
and we can't know what God knew or didn't know cause it doesn't say a thing about it in genesis. so what we have is a case of having to have faith in God that He knew that cain's heart was black. i mean in all honesty, cain's offering looked and sounded legit to me every single time i've read it. i can't project what ifs and he must've knowns into God's intentions cause hey i'm human. one minute eve has cain, then she has abel, then the boys are older and then abel's dead. so there's not a lot of scope there to work with, you know?
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it's common sense. it's not this big theological debate.
edit: the bible does say God knew what was in his heart... it says so when it says, "and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." door, meaning heart.
well its hardly common sense otherwise i'd have gotten it right off the bat. i was thinking that he rejected cain's offering cause he was a tiller of the soil and with adam being made from dirt, and that whole being booted out of eden episode, that somehow the sins of the father were being visited upon cain, with God's rebuff of his offering. and abel was a shepherd so..... i'm perhaps taking big leaps here, but thats just the way my brain works. i'm trying to be logical in a oftentimes illogical realm.
i'm having a little trouble with genesis 4:7. this stuff is worse(meaning my comprehension of it) than shakepeare. i'm almost there but i need to think about it more.
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Well, I am sorry to say that I won't see many of you when I receive my crowns in heaven. I just hope that God will forgive you eventually, by limiting his definition of eternity... and that you won't have to burn in hell with Satan and all of those killers, rapists, and terrorists who deserve to burn forever.
Jesus once said, "No man cometh unto the father but by me."
In Love,
brokendave
Yeah, good luck with that dave. I'm happy for you. But I can sleep at night being an "unbeliever" just fine thanks. I guess none of us will know till we're dead anyway and even then probably won't know anything so whatever floats your boat. But I live a happy life not worrying too much about what's gonna happen when I die. I'll be dead. End of story. You seem to have all this fire and brimstone shit to worry about. Must make for difficult sleep.
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i'm certain that what you deem a sin is different to what i deem a sin. of course being an atheist the concept of sins is lost on me. but the only person i am accountable to for my actions is myself. and i have a very high standard to uphold.
but you know what amuses me is that you already assume you are going to heaven. sounds like the sin of pride to me. good luck with that.
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"Compassion is the basis of morality."
A. Schopenhauer
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I find it very unfortunate that I gave a great deal of bait to all of the atheists to dig into the farce of Christianity here, and nobody took it. I denounce the existence of ANY god of ANY kind. Although I can't say with certainty that a deity exists, I will not spend any time trying to guess on such manners.
We as atheists derive our morals from the same places that Christians do, which is not the Bible, but more of an evolution of a social conscience. For example, if you were to follow the bible as a Christian, you would kill people who deny the word of God. However, you chose not to because you pick and chose what to follow in the bible. You pick and chose these things based on the moral conscience of society.
For those of you who responded, you gave nothing of intellectual value as a response. You might as well have said nothing at all. Brush up on your social skills people, or this society will never become truly rational.
ah yes i see it now. the big grinning smiley face. a definite giveaway.
and may i say, my zero intellectual input matched yours word for word.
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Ah, point taken. I suppose I didn't see your comment before I posted? Point well taken. I apologize for my pretense dear catefrances...
not a problem. see you in atheist hell dave. which i guess may be sunday mass.
i'm kidding christians, i'm kidding.
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