why do you believe in God or...

norm

soulsinging wrote:

funny, i feel like im trying to get a reasoned answer out of a 6 year old, or the world's slimiest attorney. it's very simple:

can you be buddhist and go to heaven?

if yes= christ doesn't matter and it's your spiritual relationship with god that is important, whether you find it through jesus or buddha

if no= you go to hell if you pick the wrong religion or are unlucky enough to be born in a country where you never hear of jesus.

which is it?

if you're looking for a straight, coherent answer, you'll be here for a while......:)

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

funny, i feel like im trying to get a reasoned answer out of a 6 year old, or the world's slimiest attorney. it's very simple:

can you be buddhist and go to heaven?

if yes= christ doesn't matter and it's your spiritual relationship with god that is important, whether you find it through jesus or buddha

if no= you go to hell if you pick the wrong religion or are unlucky enough to be born in a country where you never hear of jesus.

which is it?

a 6 year who's about to bitchslap you... j/k

can you be buddhist and go to heaven? no... i told you that already. "i am the way the truth and the life... yadda, yadda"

the point i'm trying to make with you is that you make God sound like a silly widdle cry-baby who gets so angwy when someone doesn't wanna be his widdle fwend. when that's clearly what i'm trying to explain to you. that's not the case when you read the bible. hell, how do you know if i do or don't believe in the bible? for all i care, i probably changed my beliefs yesterday. and even still as an unbeliever i could tell you again... God doesn't send people to hell just because they don't believe in him. it's a little more complicated than that. people are on their way to hell already... that's the biblical message and Christ came to fix that. can't you agree with that simple fact? well, not as in a matter of fact, but merely a fact that it's how God is portrayed in the bible. that's all, dude. no hard feelings man. geesh...

deadnothingbetter

cutback wrote:

if you're looking for a straight, coherent answer, you'll be here for a while......:)

i've been giving straight answers all night long... or day.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

The pharaoh used to worship a Dog and Dog backwards is God. Therefor God is a Dog, which is why everything is shitty and stinks bad.

there's a song called Dog:God by Cafe Tacuba. listen to it.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the point i'm trying to make with you is that you make God sound like a silly widdle cry-baby who gets so angwy when someone doesn't wanna be his widdle fwend. when that's clearly what i'm trying to explain to you. that's not the case when you read the bible. hell, how do you know if i do or don't believe in the bible? for all i care, i probably changed my beliefs yesterday. and even still as an unbeliever i could tell you again... God doesn't send people to hell just because they don't believe in him. it's a little more complicated than that. people are on their way to hell already... that's the biblical message and Christ came to fix that. can't you agree with that simple fact? well, not as in a matter of fact, but merely a fact that it's how God is portrayed in the bible. that's all, dude. no hard feelings man. geesh...

and im saying that you can't make that point becos it's utterly ridiculous and illogical. to say "i love you all, but you're all born despicable and ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway... but i really do love you in the way a casino owner loves all his customers."

and why would i agree with that simple fact? sure, i understand it as a theological concept, but it doesn't in the least change the fact that god seems like quite the vain little prat under that doctrine, certainly not very loving or forgiving if he's telling the indiginous natives of australia they're fucked becos no missions have made it there yet. but no, i dont agree with that fact, jesus to me is just another cool dude.

Ahnimus

Hehe, I liked this joke

A drunk man boards a bus. A Bible thumper tells him, "You're going straight to hell."
The drunk struggles to get up and says, "My God, I'm on the wrong bus."

Ahnimus

In Jerusalem, a female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Wailing Wall to pray, twice a day, everyday, for a long, long time. So she went to check it out. She went to the Wailing Wall and there he was!

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, she approached him for an interview.

"I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. Sir, how long have you been coming to the Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for all the hatred to stop and I pray for all our children to grow up in safety and friendship."

"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

"Like I'm talking to a fuckin' wall."

jlew24asu

^^^^^ funny

Ahnimus

deadnothingbetter wrote:

there's a song called Dog:God by Cafe Tacuba. listen to it.

Sounds interesting, but I don't understand the language.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

In Jerusalem, a female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Wailing Wall to pray, twice a day, everyday, for a long, long time. So she went to check it out. She went to the Wailing Wall and there he was!

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, she approached him for an interview.

"I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. Sir, how long have you been coming to the Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for all the hatred to stop and I pray for all our children to grow up in safety and friendship."

"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

"Like I'm talking to a fuckin' wall."

huh? I don't get it....















baaahahahaa....no really that's funny shit...

catefrances

a buddhist would not even care about going to some sort of christian heaven. he is buddhist and he lives his way accordingly. whilst all the other religious sects are busy condemning non believers/comformists, buddhists are going through their thing and showing compassion for us all. they seek only personal enlightenment. which quite frankly is what we should all be striving for in whatever way we can. a christian will go to christian heaven. a muslim will go to muslim heaven and so on and so on. so if i am a hindu you will go to where ever it is hindus go after 'death'. me? i'm going nowhere but to peace and a scattering on the four winds.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

and im saying that you can't make that point becos it's utterly ridiculous and illogical. to say "i love you all, but you're all born despicable and ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway... but i really do love you in the way a casino owner loves all his customers."

and why would i agree with that simple fact? sure, i understand it as a theological concept, but it doesn't in the least change the fact that god seems like quite the vain little prat under that doctrine, certainly not very loving or forgiving if he's telling the indiginous natives of australia they're fucked becos no missions have made it there yet. but no, i dont agree with that fact, jesus to me is just another cool dude.

"i love you all, but you're all born despicable and ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway... but i really do love you in the way a casino owner loves all his customers."

now you're changing your argument.... and even still, you got it wrong. the whole idea is so easy... you said, "ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway..." well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus? c'mon dude... it's like you're trying to argue with me by using my own weapon... you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same. it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is. today you have topics about global warming and all... the bible said, "subdue the earth and multiply". sounds to me like God gave us a job to take care of this earth but we're not doing a good job of it. it's not God's fault... it's ours. God has given us the ability to live a good and perfect life but we don't do it because of our own unbelief. if only we believe like Christ lived then we can make this better. at least, that's what the bible promises. i'm not guaranteeing that but that's the message of the bible.

again and again and again and again i tell you... it wasn't God who said, "ughhh you little shitty beings of you.... here eat shit and die... don't worry that's how i show my love to you."

that's basically all i'm saying... you could agree with me and say, "yes miguel you're absolutely right. that's the message of the bible, but i just don't believe it." and if that's the case then i'm okay with it.

the bible has answers to all these questions, even yours, only if you take the time and read it. my only point is, you're not gonna win this argument... no matter how hard you try

Ahnimus

Sorry, the religious jokes abound today

A little girl is sitting on her grandpa's lap and studying the wrinkles on his old face. She gets up the nerve to rub her fingers over the wrinkles. Then she touches her own face and looks more puzzled.
Finally the little girl asks, "Grandpa, did God make you?"

"He sure did honey, a long time ago," replies her grandpa.

"Well, did God make me?" asks the little girl.

"Yes, He did, and that wasn't too long ago," answers her grandpa.

"Boy," says the little girl, "He's sure doing a lot better job these days, isn't He?"

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus?

Simply believing in Jesus. How easy, especially if you're born a Hindu or a Muslim and your entire environment, your entire world tells you your belief, whatever it is, is right.

Pretty simple, about as simple as it is for you to believe islam or hinduism is the right religion. Their holy books also speak the truth and also say their way is the only way...

you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same.

It's not a fact, it's a religious view.

it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is.

The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.

God created the power of our minds and he should have know what his creation would do, if not, he's not all knowing. If so, he did mean it to be this way.

I wonder where this notion came from that if a creation malfunctions, the creator isn't responsible but the creation itself is? Especially when this creator claims to know all, the past, present en future, and that he's all powerful.

But it's simple, right? Tell it to the people who've had their own traditions and beliefs for years, passed on with every generation. To them it's the truth, no doubt about it, like god and Jesus are the truth for Christians.

It's not a very convincing story, man. Tell those people to forget about their foolish gods and what not. Tell them about the peaceful god who loves all his people, his children but instead of showing his love by letting them all (over even just the good ones) into heaven, he says you have to believe in Jesus first because else he, the ultimate power, the judge of everything, will be forced to throw you in hell. Because you chose so.

But it's so simple, just believe in Jesus. :rolleyes:

catefrances

i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall

Can I play?

Collin

catefrances wrote:

i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall

I'll be the one singing 'god is not a dj but a motherfucker from hell'.

cornnifer

Collin wrote:

The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.



:

i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.

Collin

cornnifer wrote:

i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.

Ok, fair enough.

But god's love is conditional, you need to believe in him and accept Jesus as your savior because if you don't he will throw you in the pits of hell... but he loves you ?

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

Simply believing in Jesus. How easy, especially if you're born a Hindu or a Muslim and your entire environment, your entire world tells you your belief, whatever it is, is right.

Pretty simple, about as simple as it is for you to believe islam or hinduism is the right religion. Their holy books also speak the truth and also say their way is the only way...

what am i saying? that my belief is the right one and that's the end of it? i'm only speaking in the confines of the bible, nothing else. i don't care what you end up believing. what makes you think that i shove the book in other people's religion? if someone asks about the bible i will respond, just like we're doing here.... but otherwise, i'm not forcing anybody cause i fully understand, probably long before we both got into pearl jam, that there are people who have different faiths and different convictions as strong as mine... and i never for one second even thought of forcing my views onto them.

i only speak in the context of the bible, between "in the beginning" and "amen," the bible makes promises that make it very easy to "get into heaven". i'm not saying it's easy to accept what the bible teaches...

It's not a fact, it's a religious view.

it's not a fact that you die?

The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.

God created the power of our minds and he should have know what his creation would do, if not, he's not all knowing. If so, he did mean it to be this way.

The omniscient and omnipotent God has never quarelled with humanity's will. Sure God knew, but he could never change their will. God knows what you will do tomorrow but he's not going to change that.

God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land... but explain to me how does that, by default, make God responsible for everything?

I wonder where this notion came from that if a creation malfunctions, the creator isn't responsible but the creation itself is? Especially when this creator claims to know all, the past, present en future, and that he's all powerful.

all powerful doesn't mean that he'll always use his powers against you.... sure, he can... but he also has a will.

But it's simple, right? Tell it to the people who've had their own traditions and beliefs for years, passed on with every generation. To them it's the truth, no doubt about it, like god and Jesus are the truth for Christians.

It's not a very convincing story, man. Tell those people to forget about their foolish gods and what not. Tell them about the peaceful god who loves all his people, his children but instead of showing his love by letting them all (over even just the good ones) into heaven, he says you have to believe in Jesus first because else he, the ultimate power, the judge of everything, will be forced to throw you in hell. Because you chose so.

But it's so simple, just believe in Jesus. :rolleyes:

simple, to get into heaven, to achieve salvation... yes... but that's what the bible promises... and i'm sure all the other religions promise other things... and if somebody wants to believe in it... that's perfectly understandable.

i'm not trying to convince you... or anybody... i'm just trying to clear up certain interpretations people have about my beliefs... cause sometimes their interpretations offend me. you can argue with a hindu, a jew, a buddhist about their faith and i'm sure they'll respond in the same way. and i'm sure they'll probably respond in ways that can make sense for themselves just like for you without even trying to make you believe. that's what i'm doing here. and i believe that everybody's entitled to it... even an atheist, or agnostic, would do the same.

but allbeit you're still doing the same thing soulsinging did... using the context of the bible to show how it doesn't make sense.... i'll never get tired of saying, God doesn't throw you into hell just cos you don't accept Jesus... we were born with a fallen nature... death wasn't even part of the picture for humanity... God tried in times past different ways to rescue humanity from their fallen nature...but men refused to believe... so it ultimately narrowed down to the last one... the dude was Jesus. "God who at sundry times spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders. but now in these last days has he spoken to us through his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." Heb 1:1,2

you could be the nicest little fella... you could be the meanest of 'em all... but too bad that we don't get into heaven by our good deeds, it still doesn't take away that you have a fallen state of nature and the only one who could fix it is Jesus Christ... death wasn't even a part of the plan for humanity but Christ came to fix that by giving us eternal life...

---

the bottom line is this, why can't we all agree that we have beliefs of all kinds and all of them can make perfect sense if you looked into it, but just by doing so doesn't make it as truth? it's still a belief, regardless.