a buddhist would not even care about going to some sort of christian heaven. he is buddhist and he lives his way accordingly. whilst all the other religious sects are busy condemning non believers/comformists, buddhists are going through their thing and showing compassion for us all. they seek only personal enlightenment. which quite frankly is what we should all be striving for in whatever way we can. a christian will go to christian heaven. a muslim will go to muslim heaven and so on and so on. so if i am a hindu you will go to where ever it is hindus go after 'death'. me? i'm going nowhere but to peace and a scattering on the four winds.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and im saying that you can't make that point becos it's utterly ridiculous and illogical. to say "i love you all, but you're all born despicable and ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway... but i really do love you in the way a casino owner loves all his customers."
and why would i agree with that simple fact? sure, i understand it as a theological concept, but it doesn't in the least change the fact that god seems like quite the vain little prat under that doctrine, certainly not very loving or forgiving if he's telling the indiginous natives of australia they're fucked becos no missions have made it there yet. but no, i dont agree with that fact, jesus to me is just another cool dude.
"i love you all, but you're all born despicable and ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway... but i really do love you in the way a casino owner loves all his customers."
now you're changing your argument.... and even still, you got it wrong. the whole idea is so easy... you said, "ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway..." well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus? c'mon dude... it's like you're trying to argue with me by using my own weapon... you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same. it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is. today you have topics about global warming and all... the bible said, "subdue the earth and multiply". sounds to me like God gave us a job to take care of this earth but we're not doing a good job of it. it's not God's fault... it's ours. God has given us the ability to live a good and perfect life but we don't do it because of our own unbelief. if only we believe like Christ lived then we can make this better. at least, that's what the bible promises. i'm not guaranteeing that but that's the message of the bible.
again and again and again and again i tell you... it wasn't God who said, "ughhh you little shitty beings of you.... here eat shit and die... don't worry that's how i show my love to you."
that's basically all i'm saying... you could agree with me and say, "yes miguel you're absolutely right. that's the message of the bible, but i just don't believe it." and if that's the case then i'm okay with it.
the bible has answers to all these questions, even yours, only if you take the time and read it. my only point is, you're not gonna win this argument... no matter how hard you try
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
A little girl is sitting on her grandpa's lap and studying the wrinkles on his old face. She gets up the nerve to rub her fingers over the wrinkles. Then she touches her own face and looks more puzzled.
Finally the little girl asks, "Grandpa, did God make you?"
"He sure did honey, a long time ago," replies her grandpa.
"Well, did God make me?" asks the little girl.
"Yes, He did, and that wasn't too long ago," answers her grandpa.
"Boy," says the little girl, "He's sure doing a lot better job these days, isn't He?"
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus?
Simply believing in Jesus. How easy, especially if you're born a Hindu or a Muslim and your entire environment, your entire world tells you your belief, whatever it is, is right.
Pretty simple, about as simple as it is for you to believe islam or hinduism is the right religion. Their holy books also speak the truth and also say their way is the only way...
you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same.
It's not a fact, it's a religious view.
it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is.
The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.
God created the power of our minds and he should have know what his creation would do, if not, he's not all knowing. If so, he did mean it to be this way.
I wonder where this notion came from that if a creation malfunctions, the creator isn't responsible but the creation itself is? Especially when this creator claims to know all, the past, present en future, and that he's all powerful.
But it's simple, right? Tell it to the people who've had their own traditions and beliefs for years, passed on with every generation. To them it's the truth, no doubt about it, like god and Jesus are the truth for Christians.
It's not a very convincing story, man. Tell those people to forget about their foolish gods and what not. Tell them about the peaceful god who loves all his people, his children but instead of showing his love by letting them all (over even just the good ones) into heaven, he says you have to believe in Jesus first because else he, the ultimate power, the judge of everything, will be forced to throw you in hell. Because you chose so.
But it's so simple, just believe in Jesus. :rolleyes:
i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall
i get it! life is a test and we, as in all judeo-christian humanity, is failing miserably. we're all going to hell. look for me won't you? i'll be the one dancing on the table with the lampshade on her head singing wonderwall
I'll be the one singing 'god is not a dj but a motherfucker from hell'.
The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.
:
i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.
Ok, fair enough.
But god's love is conditional, you need to believe in him and accept Jesus as your savior because if you don't he will throw you in the pits of hell... but he loves you ?
Simply believing in Jesus. How easy, especially if you're born a Hindu or a Muslim and your entire environment, your entire world tells you your belief, whatever it is, is right.
Pretty simple, about as simple as it is for you to believe islam or hinduism is the right religion. Their holy books also speak the truth and also say their way is the only way...
what am i saying? that my belief is the right one and that's the end of it? i'm only speaking in the confines of the bible, nothing else. i don't care what you end up believing. what makes you think that i shove the book in other people's religion? if someone asks about the bible i will respond, just like we're doing here.... but otherwise, i'm not forcing anybody cause i fully understand, probably long before we both got into pearl jam, that there are people who have different faiths and different convictions as strong as mine... and i never for one second even thought of forcing my views onto them.
i only speak in the context of the bible, between "in the beginning" and "amen," the bible makes promises that make it very easy to "get into heaven". i'm not saying it's easy to accept what the bible teaches...
It's not a fact, it's a religious view.
it's not a fact that you die?
The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.
God created the power of our minds and he should have know what his creation would do, if not, he's not all knowing. If so, he did mean it to be this way.
The omniscient and omnipotent God has never quarelled with humanity's will. Sure God knew, but he could never change their will. God knows what you will do tomorrow but he's not going to change that.
God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land... but explain to me how does that, by default, make God responsible for everything?
I wonder where this notion came from that if a creation malfunctions, the creator isn't responsible but the creation itself is? Especially when this creator claims to know all, the past, present en future, and that he's all powerful.
all powerful doesn't mean that he'll always use his powers against you.... sure, he can... but he also has a will.
But it's simple, right? Tell it to the people who've had their own traditions and beliefs for years, passed on with every generation. To them it's the truth, no doubt about it, like god and Jesus are the truth for Christians.
It's not a very convincing story, man. Tell those people to forget about their foolish gods and what not. Tell them about the peaceful god who loves all his people, his children but instead of showing his love by letting them all (over even just the good ones) into heaven, he says you have to believe in Jesus first because else he, the ultimate power, the judge of everything, will be forced to throw you in hell. Because you chose so.
But it's so simple, just believe in Jesus. :rolleyes:
simple, to get into heaven, to achieve salvation... yes... but that's what the bible promises... and i'm sure all the other religions promise other things... and if somebody wants to believe in it... that's perfectly understandable.
i'm not trying to convince you... or anybody... i'm just trying to clear up certain interpretations people have about my beliefs... cause sometimes their interpretations offend me. you can argue with a hindu, a jew, a buddhist about their faith and i'm sure they'll respond in the same way. and i'm sure they'll probably respond in ways that can make sense for themselves just like for you without even trying to make you believe. that's what i'm doing here. and i believe that everybody's entitled to it... even an atheist, or agnostic, would do the same.
but allbeit you're still doing the same thing soulsinging did... using the context of the bible to show how it doesn't make sense.... i'll never get tired of saying, God doesn't throw you into hell just cos you don't accept Jesus... we were born with a fallen nature... death wasn't even part of the picture for humanity... God tried in times past different ways to rescue humanity from their fallen nature...but men refused to believe... so it ultimately narrowed down to the last one... the dude was Jesus. "God who at sundry times spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders. but now in these last days has he spoken to us through his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." Heb 1:1,2
you could be the nicest little fella... you could be the meanest of 'em all... but too bad that we don't get into heaven by our good deeds, it still doesn't take away that you have a fallen state of nature and the only one who could fix it is Jesus Christ... death wasn't even a part of the plan for humanity but Christ came to fix that by giving us eternal life...
the bottom line is this, why can't we all agree that we have beliefs of all kinds and all of them can make perfect sense if you looked into it, but just by doing so doesn't make it as truth? it's still a belief, regardless.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
But god's love is conditional, you need to believe in him and accept Jesus as your savior because if you don't he will throw you in the pits of hell... but he loves you ?
Now you're getting into areas of Christian theology. i try, here to keep my replies centered around theism in general. i don't push my personal faith. Theology becomes a sticky area even amongst Christians themselves. In attempt to adress your question, however, i may extend my analogy to point out that when when my children mess up, i ground them. i take away the gameboy. i send them to bed early. etc. And, at age eight, my son often times lays the "you don't love me" guilt trip on pretty thick. i know, however that i love him. There are consequences to your actions.
Some may argue, (and have, i believe, in this very thread) that God sends no one to hell. They choose their course of action and wind up sending themselves there. Technically, i dont send my son to his room. He knows the consequences of his disobediance and misbehavior, and HE sends HIMSELF there.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
what am i saying? that my belief is the right one and that's the end of it? i'm only speaking in the confines of the bible, nothing else. i don't care what you end up believing. what makes you think that i shove the book in other people's religion? if someone asks about the bible i will respond, just like we're doing here.... but otherwise, i'm not forcing anybody cause i fully understand, probably long before we both got into pearl jam, that there are people who have different faiths and different convictions as strong as mine... and i never for one second even thought of forcing my views onto them.
i only speak in the context of the bible, between "in the beginning" and "amen," the bible makes promises that make it very easy to "get into heaven". i'm not saying it's easy to accept what the bible teaches...
it's not a fact that you die?
The omniscient and omnipotent God has never quarelled with humanity's will. Sure God knew, but he could never change their will. God knows what you will do tomorrow but he's not going to change that.
God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land... but explain to me how does that, by default, make God responsible for everything?
all powerful doesn't mean that he'll always use his powers against you.... sure, he can... but he also has a will.
simple, to get into heaven, to achieve salvation... yes... but that's what the bible promises... and i'm sure all the other religions promise other things... and if somebody wants to believe in it... that's perfectly understandable.
i'm not trying to convince you... or anybody... i'm just trying to clear up certain interpretations people have about my beliefs... cause sometimes their interpretations offend me. you can argue with a hindu, a jew, a buddhist about their faith and i'm sure they'll respond in the same way. and i'm sure they'll probably respond in ways that can make sense for themselves just like for you without even trying to make you believe. that's what i'm doing here. and i believe that everybody's entitled to it... even an atheist, or agnostic, would do the same.
but allbeit you're still doing the same thing soulsinging did... using the context of the bible to show how it doesn't make sense.... i'll never get tired of saying, God doesn't throw you into hell just cos you don't accept Jesus... we were born with a fallen nature... death wasn't even part of the picture for humanity... God tried in times past different ways to rescue humanity from their fallen nature...but men refused to believe... so it ultimately narrowed down to the last one... the dude was Jesus. "God who at sundry times spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders. but now in these last days has he spoken to us through his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." Heb 1:1,2
you could be the nicest little fella... you could be the meanest of 'em all... but too bad that we don't get into heaven by our good deeds, it still doesn't take away that you have a fallen state of nature and the only one who could fix it is Jesus Christ... death wasn't even a part of the plan for humanity but Christ came to fix that by giving us eternal life...
the bottom line is this, why can't we all agree that we have beliefs of all kinds and all of them can make perfect sense if you looked into it, but just by doing so doesn't make it as truth? it's still a belief, regardless.
So, you really aren't ill, this is just a mental construct you have chosen that works for you.
But god's love is conditional, you need to believe in him and accept Jesus as your savior because if you don't he will throw you in the pits of hell... but he loves you ?
he loves you even if you don't accept Jesus....
that's why he put Jesus there in the first place, because he loves you... God couldn't rescue you all in his own cause he never quarells with your choice. so he sent someone that can relate to us, someone that can lead us to the truth, that can live like us and show us what humans are actually capable of accomplishing. God's love is manifested in Jesus.
if he didn't love you he'd of been done away with you a long time ago...
you're twisting the concept...
edit: i think cornnifer said it best... you're getting into the theology of it. that's pretty much what i've been trying to tell you folks.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
are you referring to the comment that you made the other day? but however, yes, a mental construct works just fine for me.
Okay.
The thing is, when you say something along the lines that, I'm ill, everybody is ill, you're ill too, isn't that overstepping a boundary?
For one thing, logically, if everyone was ill from the moment Adam and Eve sinned, then "illness" would have to cancel itself out because no one would have the ability to contrast it to what "healthy" is.
that's why he put Jesus there in the first place, because he loves you... God couldn't rescue you all in his own cause he never quarells with your choice. so he sent someone that can relate to us, someone that can lead us to the truth, that can live like us and show us what humans are actually capable of accomplishing. God's love is manifested in Jesus.
if he didn't love you he'd of been done away with you a long time ago...
you're twisting the concept...
edit: i think cornnifer said it best... you're getting into the theology of it. that's pretty much what i've been trying to tell you folks.
i can invite you my party, but i can't force you to attend.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Okay.
The thing is, when you say something along the lines that, I'm ill, everybody is ill, you're ill too, isn't that overstepping a boundary?
For one thing, logically, if everyone was ill from the moment Adam and Eve sinned, then "illness" would have to cancel itself out because no one would have the ability to contrast it to what "healthy" is.
well, in that sense, let me put it this way. prior to adam and eve eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were perfect beings. they were eternal beings... but once they ate from the tree that is when they received the fallen nature... and that's when they had to work for a living and procreate and then die.
but if i'm overstepping a boundary by calling everybody ill, i only used the word illness as an analogy. i know what you mean though.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
i only speak in the context of the bible, between "in the beginning" and "amen," the bible makes promises that make it very easy to "get into heaven". i'm not saying it's easy to accept what the bible teaches...
See, I'm speaking in the context of reality. The bible does make it sound easy to get into heaven, but it's not easy.
It might be easier for the people in the Western world because Christianity is the dominant religion, but for the people who live in the non-Western world or a country where christianity isn't a major religion, it's not easy at all.
What's the point in talking about the bible from the perspective of the bible? We should be looking at it from the people's perspective., because after all that's for whom it is written. The bible gives an empty promise if you were born in the non-Christian world.
So my point is, no it's not easy and I'm saying this because you said it was. Sure it's easy when you are born into a Christian family or grew up with Christian values, it's not easy when you were born into a muslim family.
well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus?
it's not a fact that you die?
That is a fact, the rest is not.
but explain to me how does that, by default, make God responsible for everything?
So he's only responsible for a few things, conveniently, the good things?
You said he didn't mean things to be this way. Obviously he did.
That's all fine and dandy when you're a Christian.
the bottom line is this, why can't we all agree that we have beliefs of all kinds and all of them can make perfect sense if you looked into it, but just by doing so doesn't make it as truth? it's still a belief, regardless.
I can't agree with the statement that all beliefs make perfect sense.
Now you're getting into areas of Christian theology. i try, here to keep my replies centered around theism in general. i don't push my personal faith. Theology becomes a sticky area even amongst Christians themselves. In attempt to adress your question, however, i may extend my analogy to point out that when when my children mess up, i ground them. i take away the gameboy. i send them to bed early. etc. And, at age eight, my son often times lays the "you don't love me" guilt trip on pretty thick. i know, however that i love him. There are consequences to your actions.
Some may argue, (and have, i believe, in this very thread) that God sends no one to hell. They choose their course of action and wind up sending themselves there. Technically, i dont send my son to his room. He knows the consequences of his disobediance and misbehavior, and HE sends HIMSELF there.
You punish your kids because you want to teach them something. God doesn't do that, he watches you as you fuck up, doesn't get involved and then sends you to hell.
It's easy to try and explain it this way, that we disobey so we send ourselves into hell... but that doesn't hold water when you look at it from a perspective of a muslim or a jew. If christianity were the only religion, this view would be totally acceptable.
But it's not. Every religion claims it the right one, how can a person know if he chose the right one? There's no proof, so you base your decisions on what other people tell you and the environment you grew up in. If you were born in a islamic country, you'd be a muslim.
If god wants his people to believe in him, he should offer them proof. Why does he make it so difficult? He knows he's have to send millions of people to hell, yet he doesn't care?
I'm sorry, I can't quite understand that. I believe your religious beliefs are based on where you were born and are largely depend on your family, friends and social environment, not on proof or anything like it. So it's just a matter of luck?
In my opinion, if you try to fight something as based around faith and belief as religion with science, you are wasting your time. Much in the same way as trying to justify your religion with science is a waste of time. They are opposite ends of the spectrum yet entirely relevant.
If you have to back up your beleif and/or faith in your deity with science I would think you are going about the entire concept of faith the wrong way, and should rethink your so called beleif. Faith isn't about how or why, faith is absurd which is why you must believe, faith by its very nature must transcend logic.
By the way I'm not trying to offend anyone but if I did, sorry.
It's just hard.
God created us and loves us. He created us with free will and knew full well (fully well?) what would happen, he knew there would be other major religions, that he'd have to send more than half of the people on earth to hell.
Oh and he sent Jesus, the savior, god's love personified. He sent him to save us. But he knew he wouldn't actually save everybody just a small portion of the people?
I'm somewhere in the middle. I just feel I can't take a stance because neither side of this argument (whether there's a God or gods or not) can prove anything to me. I do feel that throughout history people have tried to create or interpret Gods in their own image, with those Gods giving advantage to a select group of people. This is an extension of people's clan orientation, and really has nothing to do with any God that may (or may not) exist. For myself, I feel pretty certain that nothing portrayed in a book is any actual God that may exist. I think all religions and philosophies have facets of truth in their court; but none of them has the "diamond." I feel that either "God" has no interest in being found, given the multitude of approaches to It, yet no one any nearer than any other; or, that God is so pervasive and so self-evident that we do not recognize It as such. It appears to me that the universe is a manifestation of compulsive, creative artistic force. Yet, within that, I see nothing that shows me that this creative force has anything approaching human morals--it is amoral. It creates as easily as it destroys, and one with as much compunction as the other. In fact, creation is dependent upon destruction.
When I found out about the Hindu god, Shiva; I was awed by East Indian understanding so long ago about the fundamentals of our existence. Here you have a god that is a destroyer, so that another god (or in my interpretation, facet) is then free to create. Shiva represents that the only constant in our existence is change, while dancing on the back of ignorance. Iconically, there is a lot there that rings true for me--I can look out at my existence and see that all the elements make sense. Which is not to say that I believe that Shiva exists, just to say that this interpretation or metaphor for our existence is pretty dead on in my eyes.
well, in that sense, let me put it this way. prior to adam and eve eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were perfect beings. they were eternal beings... but once they ate from the tree that is when they received the fallen nature... and that's when they had to work for a living and procreate and then die.
but if i'm overstepping a boundary by calling everybody ill, i only used the word illness as an analogy. i know what you mean though.
So what is it about this story of Adam and Eve that appeals to you?
To me it would be the naked man and woman thing. Eden, two alone as one, Rock hard and dripping wet, Eden. That sounds healthy to me in any way imaginable.
Apparently, what you're saying is that, in your opinion, sex wasn't intended to take place between these two. Life was perfect, humans were perfect, then when they disobeyed, they had to go and have that awful sex, like it was a bad thing.
wait until you get to the whole "how did Cain and Abel have kids?" question!!!
their sisters? sheep? angels?
pick the least plausible of the 3 and thats the answer i get when i ask!
personally, i'm descended from a stegausaurus... you know a dinosaur? wait they didnt exist did they? but angels did?
far out
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
wait until you get to the whole "how did Cain and Abel have kids?" question!!!
their sisters? sheep? angels?
pick the least plausible of the 3 and thats the answer i get when i ask!
personally, i'm descended from a stegausaurus... you know a dinosaur? wait they didnt exist did they? but angels did?
far out
I'm not on the trail of pointing out flaws in the bible, or anything like that for anyone...it's been gone over 1000 times here. I'm just trying to figure out how much of this "mental construct" of DNM's is put-on or real. I'm also trying to figure out if I accidentally wrote a haiku.
I'm not on the trail of pointing out flaws in the bible, or anything like that for anyone...it's been gone over 1000 times here. I'm just trying to figure out how much of this "mental construct" of DNM's is put-on or real. I'm also trying to figure out if I accidentally wrote a haiku.
ok, whatever
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
You punish your kids because you want to teach them something. God doesn't do that, he watches you as you fuck up, doesn't get involved and then sends you to hell.
It's easy to try and explain it this way, that we disobey so we send ourselves into hell... but that doesn't hold water when you look at it from a perspective of a muslim or a jew. If christianity were the only religion, this view would be totally acceptable.
But it's not. Every religion claims it the right one, how can a person know if he chose the right one? There's no proof, so you base your decisions on what other people tell you and the environment you grew up in. If you were born in a islamic country, you'd be a muslim.
If god wants his people to believe in him, he should offer them proof. Why does he make it so difficult? He knows he's have to send millions of people to hell, yet he doesn't care?
I'm sorry, I can't quite understand that. I believe your religious beliefs are based on where you were born and are largely depend on your family, friends and social environment, not on proof or anything like it. So it's just a matter of luck?
i disagree. God does teach me things. Just like my children don't understand all my lessons, or even that i'm attempting to teach them, we as humans just don't realise.
Furthermore, for billions of people worldwide who hold a theistic worldview, it isn't hard at all to believe. i understand for you, many others, it may not be so easy, but for, literally billons, it is fairly simple. Besides, i wonder, is faith supposed to be easy? If it were, what would it really mean? i would argue that it is those who have struggled with faith, and then find it, that have the strongest, most sincere faith! if God were to hand me a blu ray dvd disc containing footage of him creating the universe, wouldn't my faith have less meaning?
As far as geography, sure it has some impact on the direction one's faith takes, but, i think you generalize and over simplify it a bit. You must remember, that there are plenty of CHristians in the "Muslim world". There are plenty of Christians in the "Buddhist and Hindu worlds" just as there are plenty of Muslims right here in this part of the world. As a matter of fact, i would argue that the Christians in Afghanistan, or China are probably some of the best Christians. There faith is probably stronger than my own.
i was not born and raised a Christian. There was a time in my life when i was "searching". Looking for direction in my theistic worldview. i studied the koran a bit. i studied buddhism a bit. in college, i had a good buddy from Afghanistan, a nice Muslim lad, who invited me to mosque on several occasions. i often entertained the thought. Christianity is not something i picked from a hat or simply adopted because it was the predominant faith in my homeland.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
My theory is that most Christians understand their beliefs as mental constructs afforded through storytelling. I don't believe they believe the phantasmical aspects of the Bible as literal. They may cling to the story as Truth, as that is their preogative, but they are as attuned to reality as anyone else.
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
now you're changing your argument.... and even still, you got it wrong. the whole idea is so easy... you said, "ill only offer you one way out that you will have to choose from among hundreds of options and might not ever even know about anyway..." well, don't you have the bible telling you already what the way out is? simply to believe in jesus? c'mon dude... it's like you're trying to argue with me by using my own weapon... you also say that we're born dispicable.... well, isn't that a fact? i'm an imperfect being, you're an imperfect being, the world is an imperfect place... we live, we get sick, we die... it's all a sad cycle. sure, we can strive to live a better life but in the end it remains the same. it's not like God meant for it to be that way... again, it was all through the power of our minds taht this world became the way it is. today you have topics about global warming and all... the bible said, "subdue the earth and multiply". sounds to me like God gave us a job to take care of this earth but we're not doing a good job of it. it's not God's fault... it's ours. God has given us the ability to live a good and perfect life but we don't do it because of our own unbelief. if only we believe like Christ lived then we can make this better. at least, that's what the bible promises. i'm not guaranteeing that but that's the message of the bible.
again and again and again and again i tell you... it wasn't God who said, "ughhh you little shitty beings of you.... here eat shit and die... don't worry that's how i show my love to you."
that's basically all i'm saying... you could agree with me and say, "yes miguel you're absolutely right. that's the message of the bible, but i just don't believe it." and if that's the case then i'm okay with it.
the bible has answers to all these questions, even yours, only if you take the time and read it. my only point is, you're not gonna win this argument... no matter how hard you try
A little girl is sitting on her grandpa's lap and studying the wrinkles on his old face. She gets up the nerve to rub her fingers over the wrinkles. Then she touches her own face and looks more puzzled.
Finally the little girl asks, "Grandpa, did God make you?"
"He sure did honey, a long time ago," replies her grandpa.
"Well, did God make me?" asks the little girl.
"Yes, He did, and that wasn't too long ago," answers her grandpa.
"Boy," says the little girl, "He's sure doing a lot better job these days, isn't He?"
Simply believing in Jesus. How easy, especially if you're born a Hindu or a Muslim and your entire environment, your entire world tells you your belief, whatever it is, is right.
Pretty simple, about as simple as it is for you to believe islam or hinduism is the right religion. Their holy books also speak the truth and also say their way is the only way...
It's not a fact, it's a religious view.
The all-powerful, all-knowing god didn't mean it to be that way? I thought god knew everything, yet something happened he didn't count on.
God created the power of our minds and he should have know what his creation would do, if not, he's not all knowing. If so, he did mean it to be this way.
I wonder where this notion came from that if a creation malfunctions, the creator isn't responsible but the creation itself is? Especially when this creator claims to know all, the past, present en future, and that he's all powerful.
But it's simple, right? Tell it to the people who've had their own traditions and beliefs for years, passed on with every generation. To them it's the truth, no doubt about it, like god and Jesus are the truth for Christians.
It's not a very convincing story, man. Tell those people to forget about their foolish gods and what not. Tell them about the peaceful god who loves all his people, his children but instead of showing his love by letting them all (over even just the good ones) into heaven, he says you have to believe in Jesus first because else he, the ultimate power, the judge of everything, will be forced to throw you in hell. Because you chose so.
But it's so simple, just believe in Jesus. :rolleyes:
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Can I play?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'll be the one singing 'god is not a dj but a motherfucker from hell'.
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i'm fairly sure he counted on it. That doesn't mean he likes it. Kinda the same way my wife and i procreated three times knowing damn well our children would, at times, be rather naughty, behave in ways we don't approve of, behave ways contradictory to how we teach them. We knew, before having children, that they would, more often than not, disobey us and get themselves into trouble and cause us an occasional headache. Yet we had them anyway, and we love them unconditionally and whole heartedly. Kinda the same way people buy a puppy knowing damn well it is very likely it will chew up their favorite pair of shoes and shit on the floor.
Ok, fair enough.
But god's love is conditional, you need to believe in him and accept Jesus as your savior because if you don't he will throw you in the pits of hell... but he loves you
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i only speak in the context of the bible, between "in the beginning" and "amen," the bible makes promises that make it very easy to "get into heaven". i'm not saying it's easy to accept what the bible teaches...
it's not a fact that you die?
The omniscient and omnipotent God has never quarelled with humanity's will. Sure God knew, but he could never change their will. God knows what you will do tomorrow but he's not going to change that.
God, the creator of time, space and matter... the one who geometrically ordered the suns, moons and planets... knows the causes and effects of everyday life... the count of hairs on your head... he knows what drives you, what motivates you... he knows exactly where every drop of rain will land... but explain to me how does that, by default, make God responsible for everything?
all powerful doesn't mean that he'll always use his powers against you.... sure, he can... but he also has a will.
simple, to get into heaven, to achieve salvation... yes... but that's what the bible promises... and i'm sure all the other religions promise other things... and if somebody wants to believe in it... that's perfectly understandable.
i'm not trying to convince you... or anybody... i'm just trying to clear up certain interpretations people have about my beliefs... cause sometimes their interpretations offend me. you can argue with a hindu, a jew, a buddhist about their faith and i'm sure they'll respond in the same way. and i'm sure they'll probably respond in ways that can make sense for themselves just like for you without even trying to make you believe. that's what i'm doing here. and i believe that everybody's entitled to it... even an atheist, or agnostic, would do the same.
but allbeit you're still doing the same thing soulsinging did... using the context of the bible to show how it doesn't make sense.... i'll never get tired of saying, God doesn't throw you into hell just cos you don't accept Jesus... we were born with a fallen nature... death wasn't even part of the picture for humanity... God tried in times past different ways to rescue humanity from their fallen nature...but men refused to believe... so it ultimately narrowed down to the last one... the dude was Jesus. "God who at sundry times spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders. but now in these last days has he spoken to us through his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." Heb 1:1,2
you could be the nicest little fella... you could be the meanest of 'em all... but too bad that we don't get into heaven by our good deeds, it still doesn't take away that you have a fallen state of nature and the only one who could fix it is Jesus Christ... death wasn't even a part of the plan for humanity but Christ came to fix that by giving us eternal life...
the bottom line is this, why can't we all agree that we have beliefs of all kinds and all of them can make perfect sense if you looked into it, but just by doing so doesn't make it as truth? it's still a belief, regardless.
Now you're getting into areas of Christian theology. i try, here to keep my replies centered around theism in general. i don't push my personal faith. Theology becomes a sticky area even amongst Christians themselves. In attempt to adress your question, however, i may extend my analogy to point out that when when my children mess up, i ground them. i take away the gameboy. i send them to bed early. etc. And, at age eight, my son often times lays the "you don't love me" guilt trip on pretty thick. i know, however that i love him. There are consequences to your actions.
Some may argue, (and have, i believe, in this very thread) that God sends no one to hell. They choose their course of action and wind up sending themselves there. Technically, i dont send my son to his room. He knows the consequences of his disobediance and misbehavior, and HE sends HIMSELF there.
So, you really aren't ill, this is just a mental construct you have chosen that works for you.
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that's why he put Jesus there in the first place, because he loves you... God couldn't rescue you all in his own cause he never quarells with your choice. so he sent someone that can relate to us, someone that can lead us to the truth, that can live like us and show us what humans are actually capable of accomplishing. God's love is manifested in Jesus.
if he didn't love you he'd of been done away with you a long time ago...
you're twisting the concept...
edit: i think cornnifer said it best... you're getting into the theology of it. that's pretty much what i've been trying to tell you folks.
Okay.
The thing is, when you say something along the lines that, I'm ill, everybody is ill, you're ill too, isn't that overstepping a boundary?
For one thing, logically, if everyone was ill from the moment Adam and Eve sinned, then "illness" would have to cancel itself out because no one would have the ability to contrast it to what "healthy" is.
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i can invite you my party, but i can't force you to attend.
but if i'm overstepping a boundary by calling everybody ill, i only used the word illness as an analogy. i know what you mean though.
See, I'm speaking in the context of reality. The bible does make it sound easy to get into heaven, but it's not easy.
It might be easier for the people in the Western world because Christianity is the dominant religion, but for the people who live in the non-Western world or a country where christianity isn't a major religion, it's not easy at all.
What's the point in talking about the bible from the perspective of the bible? We should be looking at it from the people's perspective., because after all that's for whom it is written. The bible gives an empty promise if you were born in the non-Christian world.
So my point is, no it's not easy and I'm saying this because you said it was. Sure it's easy when you are born into a Christian family or grew up with Christian values, it's not easy when you were born into a muslim family.
That is a fact, the rest is not.
So he's only responsible for a few things, conveniently, the good things?
You said he didn't mean things to be this way. Obviously he did.
I can't agree with the statement that all beliefs make perfect sense.
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You punish your kids because you want to teach them something. God doesn't do that, he watches you as you fuck up, doesn't get involved and then sends you to hell.
It's easy to try and explain it this way, that we disobey so we send ourselves into hell... but that doesn't hold water when you look at it from a perspective of a muslim or a jew. If christianity were the only religion, this view would be totally acceptable.
But it's not. Every religion claims it the right one, how can a person know if he chose the right one? There's no proof, so you base your decisions on what other people tell you and the environment you grew up in. If you were born in a islamic country, you'd be a muslim.
If god wants his people to believe in him, he should offer them proof. Why does he make it so difficult? He knows he's have to send millions of people to hell, yet he doesn't care?
I'm sorry, I can't quite understand that. I believe your religious beliefs are based on where you were born and are largely depend on your family, friends and social environment, not on proof or anything like it. So it's just a matter of luck?
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If you have to back up your beleif and/or faith in your deity with science I would think you are going about the entire concept of faith the wrong way, and should rethink your so called beleif. Faith isn't about how or why, faith is absurd which is why you must believe, faith by its very nature must transcend logic.
there you are.
- brain of c
It's just hard.
God created us and loves us. He created us with free will and knew full well (fully well?) what would happen, he knew there would be other major religions, that he'd have to send more than half of the people on earth to hell.
Oh and he sent Jesus, the savior, god's love personified. He sent him to save us. But he knew he wouldn't actually save everybody just a small portion of the people?
But he loves us?
I'm not really convinced.
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When I found out about the Hindu god, Shiva; I was awed by East Indian understanding so long ago about the fundamentals of our existence. Here you have a god that is a destroyer, so that another god (or in my interpretation, facet) is then free to create. Shiva represents that the only constant in our existence is change, while dancing on the back of ignorance. Iconically, there is a lot there that rings true for me--I can look out at my existence and see that all the elements make sense. Which is not to say that I believe that Shiva exists, just to say that this interpretation or metaphor for our existence is pretty dead on in my eyes.
So what is it about this story of Adam and Eve that appeals to you?
To me it would be the naked man and woman thing. Eden, two alone as one, Rock hard and dripping wet, Eden. That sounds healthy to me in any way imaginable.
Apparently, what you're saying is that, in your opinion, sex wasn't intended to take place between these two. Life was perfect, humans were perfect, then when they disobeyed, they had to go and have that awful sex, like it was a bad thing.
I don't understand that.
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wait until you get to the whole "how did Cain and Abel have kids?" question!!!
their sisters? sheep? angels?
pick the least plausible of the 3 and thats the answer i get when i ask!
personally, i'm descended from a stegausaurus... you know a dinosaur? wait they didnt exist did they? but angels did?
far out
I'm not on the trail of pointing out flaws in the bible, or anything like that for anyone...it's been gone over 1000 times here. I'm just trying to figure out how much of this "mental construct" of DNM's is put-on or real. I'm also trying to figure out if I accidentally wrote a haiku.
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ok, whatever
i disagree. God does teach me things. Just like my children don't understand all my lessons, or even that i'm attempting to teach them, we as humans just don't realise.
Furthermore, for billions of people worldwide who hold a theistic worldview, it isn't hard at all to believe. i understand for you, many others, it may not be so easy, but for, literally billons, it is fairly simple. Besides, i wonder, is faith supposed to be easy? If it were, what would it really mean? i would argue that it is those who have struggled with faith, and then find it, that have the strongest, most sincere faith! if God were to hand me a blu ray dvd disc containing footage of him creating the universe, wouldn't my faith have less meaning?
As far as geography, sure it has some impact on the direction one's faith takes, but, i think you generalize and over simplify it a bit. You must remember, that there are plenty of CHristians in the "Muslim world". There are plenty of Christians in the "Buddhist and Hindu worlds" just as there are plenty of Muslims right here in this part of the world. As a matter of fact, i would argue that the Christians in Afghanistan, or China are probably some of the best Christians. There faith is probably stronger than my own.
i was not born and raised a Christian. There was a time in my life when i was "searching". Looking for direction in my theistic worldview. i studied the koran a bit. i studied buddhism a bit. in college, i had a good buddy from Afghanistan, a nice Muslim lad, who invited me to mosque on several occasions. i often entertained the thought. Christianity is not something i picked from a hat or simply adopted because it was the predominant faith in my homeland.
My theory is that most Christians understand their beliefs as mental constructs afforded through storytelling. I don't believe they believe the phantasmical aspects of the Bible as literal. They may cling to the story as Truth, as that is their preogative, but they are as attuned to reality as anyone else.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Cain also gets a mark, so that everyone can see what he did (and can kill him?).
Too bad there weren't any people.
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