Meet Your Meat: WARNING - Extremely Graphic Animal Cruelty

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

Sheep and cattle feed lots are common in Australia. I'm not sure what you're thinking of? You could certainly argue that animals grown under feedlot conditions are not leading particularly 'natural' lives, but you'd have a very hard time convincing me that it constitutes cruelty. Animals in a well managed feedlot have constant access to feed, water and shade, which may not always be the case with animals in the paddock, especially during a drought like the one we're going through now. One of our neighbours runs a small cattle feedlot operation, and we have done a lot of business with him supplying feed. He has a deal with the big bakery in town and gets all their reject and stale bread, which he mixes with the cattle feed. The cattle go nuts for it, especially when there happens to be a few finger buns in the mix

It would be interesting to hear if ayone has tried measuring cortisol (stress hormone) levels in feed lotted vs paddock grown animals to see if there is any difference.

Well I'd not argue that the drought has made it a lot less happy out there in them paddocks for the critters. But can you explain feedlots to me then please Scott, coz what I was reading about the ones in America didn't sound very good at all. I have no problem with them being enclosed in smaller areas as long as they have water, shelter, food and the opportunity to move around a bit. I mean it's not like they run around a lot anyway. I guess to me it's how many are packed in to the space. But then I will admit I'm a tad iffy about them not being grass fed anymore. I realize that it's standard practice and I do understand the problem with us not having much grass with the drought I'm just hesitant on anything that's fed stuff that it wouldn't normally eat. I'm sure I saw a story on Landline (?) a while ago about this operation that is feeding its cattle wine in the feed mix, which in turn flavors the beef. Apparently it's big in Japan or something? Not sure that'd be my thing.

Of course I got no problem with finger buns!

Jeanie

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

I feel bad for about 2 seconds for liking baby sheep, but dammit a nice rack of lamb is fucking good.

Shut up! Now I'm craving lamb chops for dinner!

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

I'm sure I saw a story on Landline (?) a while ago about this operation that is feeding its cattle wine in the feed mix, which in turn flavors the beef. Apparently it's big in Japan or something? Not sure that'd be my thing.

I've heard about that place too. Its in WA. They're producing wagyu beef for the japanese market, and they do indeed feed the cattle wine. I think its a bit of a wank really, but hey, if people if Japan are willing to pay top dollar (like $100/kilo) for it, then why not? I doubt the cattle would mind, and ruminants have a very different gut flora to us, so they can metabolise alcohol without suffering the effects that we do (I think that's true anyway, will have to check).

Feedlots in Australia mostly consist of a large yard of animals with feeders or troughs of feed (usually grain, but often also mixes containing hay, silage etc. Feeding animal products to sheep and cattle is illegal in Australia) along the side. There is always water constantly available, usually from a self-filling trough system, which provides cleaner water than they would have access to in the paddock if they were drinking from a dam. The animals can move around to and from the feed as they please. The set up varies from place to place obviously, but generally the aim of the game is to get the animals to sale weight as quickly and cost effectively as possible, so feed, shelter and water are all placed relatively close to each other so that the animals aren't constantly walking huge distances to get what they want.

Since the drought started about five years ago my family has been producing more and more lambs by feed lotting. There simply isn't any feed in the paddocks, so we were feeding them grain and hay anyway. Bringing them all in to a feed lot makes a lot of sense because you cut down enormously on the costs associated with carting feed out to the stock in the paddocks, and feed wastage that inevitably happens when you are pouring grain out onto bare ground. Our setup consists of a small paddock of about 10 acres, with several feeders for grain, and two large troughs with float valves for water. About half the block is covered in cypress scrub, which provides shade and shelter. There might be anywhere up to about 1000 lambs in this space at a time.

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

I've heard about that place too. Its in WA. They're producing wagyu beef for the japanese market, and they do indeed feed the cattle wine. I think its a bit of a wank really, but hey, if people if Japan are willing to pay top dollar (like $100/kilo) for it, then why not? I doubt the cattle would mind, and ruminants have a very different gut flora to us, so they can metabolise alcohol without suffering the effects that we do (I think that's true anyway, will have to check).

Feedlots in Australia mostly consist of a large yard of animals with feeders or troughs of feed (usually grain, but often also mixes containing hay, silage etc. Feeding animal products to sheep and cattle is illegal in Australia) along the side. There is always water constantly available, usually from a self-filling trough system, which provides cleaner water than they would have access to in the paddock if they were drinking from a dam. The animals can move around to and from the feed as they please. The set up varies from place to place obviously, but generally the aim of the game is to get the animals to sale weight as quickly and cost effectively as possible, so feed, shelter and water are all placed relatively close to each other so that the animals aren't constantly walking huge distances to get what they want.

Since the drought started about five years ago my family has been producing more and more lambs by feed lotting. There simply isn't any feed in the paddocks, so we were feeding them grain and hay anyway. Bringing them all in to a feed lot makes a lot of sense because you cut down enormously on the costs associated with carting feed out to the stock in the paddocks, and feed wastage that inevitably happens when you are pouring grain out onto bare ground. Our setup consists of a small paddock of about 10 acres, with several feeders for grain, and two large troughs with float valves for water. About half the block is covered in cypress scrub, which provides shade and shelter. There might be anywhere up to about 1000 lambs in this space at a time.

Yeah, that's different to what I read about in America. And what I figured was going on here. Seems perfectly reasonable practice to me too Scott. I wouldn't consider it cruelty. And particularly given the drought makes a lot of sense. Thanks scott.

Found this transcript from Landline on the wagyu beef, just not seeing anything about them being fed the wine, but I remember it. Maybe it was a different show? But yeah, a bit of a wank, but then the Asian market is huge for abalone and there's no way in hell I'd eat that!! :eek:

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2005/s1370659.htm

Ahnimus

Scubascott wrote:

The problem with using terms like in vivo out of context is that instead of making yourself look clever like you were intending to you actually make yourself look like a pretentious windbag who likes using fancy language to try to impress others.

Take it easy man. It just came out, it wasn't like I put much thought into it. It's not the end of humanity.

Scubascott

Ahnimus wrote:

Take it easy man. It just came out, it wasn't like I put much thought into it. It's not the end of humanity.

Sorry. Like I said, I can get a bit anal about some things.

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

Yeah, that's different to what I read about in America. And what I figured was going on here.

I'd be surprised if beef feed lotting was done much differently in america. They don't produce much lamb over there, and I can't really comment on the pork since I've never had anything to do with it. I expect that the pictures you see in videos like the one posted at the start of this thread just show the worst practices of a small section of a badly regulated industry. As for chicken in Australia, I know that both broilers and layers do live pretty shitty lives. The biggest chicken producing area in Australia is just down the road from me at Tamworth. My girlfriend was involved in an EPA project a year or two ago looking at assessing the industry's readiness for an avian flu outbreak. Her conclusion after touring a few chook sheds down that way was that although the birds do have a pretty shit life, if the industry is to stand a chance of surviving a flu outbreak they can't really do things any differently. If all the chicken consumed in australia was produced free range there would be virtually no chance of containing a disease outbreak, and the entire industry could be wiped out in a matter of weeks. Just look at the havoc this horse flu has caused. By the way, chickens in australia are NOT fed hormones or steroids to promote growth, and haven't been for over forty years.

As for slaughter methods - Sheep are generally stunned with an electric shock to the head before their throat is cut. Cattle are killed with a captive bolt gun and then have their throat cut. Electric prodders are used less and less now. We belong to a lamb marketing co-op that banned their use long ago. Aside from the animal welfare issue, its in the producer's best interest not to use them, because they leave bruises which result in docked carcass prices.

69charger

Jeanie wrote:

If we can feed cattle wine (to enhance the flavors), grain, and whole plethora of other things and go to enormous cost and effort to have "gourmet beef" for the boutique and organic markets, it really shouldn't be that bloody difficult to ensure the health and well being of animals prior to their slaughter. It's not rocket science. It's fine to be efficient, it's not ok to be cruel. And I'm a meat eater. The upshot will be that if I cannot get my meat from reliable, cruelty free, best practice suppliers I'll stop purchasing it. This is a problem that a lot of suppliers are finding here. We are buying less because we aren't happy with the way things are being done.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2006/02/12/1567920.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/23/2013501.htm

First "gourmet beef" for the boutique and organic markets is highly specialized, expensive, and not efficient to produce.

Second, I happen to be an amature rocket scientist and feeding the world in a safe inexpensive way is far more difficult than building a rocket! Case in point: Been to the Moon, people still starve all over the world.

I do pray for the day we all have to fend for ourselves again. No more political correctness!

Pearler

Well, its about that time of the day when I shove my head inside a fresh killed zebra and eat its heart.


actually......might just go a Tbone.

69charger

Vedd Hedd wrote:

There is a big difference between less than perfect and cruel existence. Did you see the video?

Yes.

If you happened to visit a farm for some reason, would you just grab a chicken by its head and toss it into a truck?

I guess that would depend. Where would the chicken and I be going? Will he chip in for gas?

Would you hit a turkey with a crowbar?

Maybe if it looked at me funny.

Would you tie a calf to a post so it couldnt move...for its entire life??

You say that like it's life is going to be long or something

I guess you would, because you dont need to show empathy to something that is just a food source.

BINGO! You understand my view.

I disagree.

I guess I already figured that out a while ago, but...

And Ron White is a idiot.

He must be doing something right!

We are not at the top of the food chain. I dont think there is a "top".

Well, then you are wrong (scientifically speaking I guess).

But if there is a "top", I would imagine E. Coli, Salmonella, influenza, plague.....and any worm or bacteria that eats your dead body would be somewhere at the top.

Do you even understand what the food chain is?

As the "most intelligent" species, I think we can figure out ways to be more humane while still keeping the industry economically viable.

Why? To make ourselves feel better? You can't make the point that we are the same as the animals and then in the same breath claim that we should be better than they are because we are "special".

I dont think......"Eh cows are just food, lets chain them up and castrate them, and we might as well pluck these chickens while they are still alive."

Dead, alive, whatever. End result = Mmm Mmm Good!

Have you ever killed a fly, mosquito, or spider just because they annoyed you?

Fucking murderer...

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

But then I will admit I'm a tad iffy about them not being grass fed anymore. I realize that it's standard practice and I do understand the problem with us not having much grass with the drought I'm just hesitant on anything that's fed stuff that it wouldn't normally eat.

If you give sheep a choice between fresh green grass or lucerne, or a bucket of oats or triticale, they'll go for the grain every time. Its not uncommon for accidents to happen where sheep find some grain and stuff themselves full of it, and then drop dead. Its usually sneaky lambs that will find a way through any fence. 'Bloody burgulars'll walk through the eye of needle!' as my old man says.

Jeanie

69charger wrote:

First "gourmet beef" for the boutique and organic markets is highly specialized, expensive, and not efficient to produce.

You've entirely missed the point. But I'm starting to understand why that doesn't surprise me. Efficiancy does not have to equal cruelty. It didn't in the past and it doesn't need to be in the future either.

69charger wrote:

Second, I happen to be an amature rocket scientist and feeding the world in a safe inexpensive way is far more difficult than building a rocket! Case in point: Been to the Moon, people still starve all over the world.

That has more to do with the ridiculous allocation of funds than anything else, not to mention politics, but you go play with your rockets. I feel your efforts would be much better served there.

69charger wrote:

I do pray for the day we all have to fend for ourselves again. No more political correctness!

If you're still praying this would explain a lot. Long before there was political correctness the world of food production was self regulating and corporations and producers wouldn't dream of doing the things they do today in worship of the almighty dollar. I've got no problem with people fending for themselves but the simple fact of the matter is that somebody, somewhere is getting rich at the expense of others on the planet, humans and animals alike and sooner rather than later that is going to have to stop because it simply isn't sustainable. When my family was farming there was never any need to be cruel to the animals that were slaughtered for our food and this was also the case for our neighbors and many other people in this country and around the world. Historically many people lived with and slaughtered animals humanely. It's not a new concept. So I don't see it as political correctness to demand that the bullshit behaviours we see going on today are stopped.

Pearler

Multiple quote/responce posts are the bollocks !

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

I'd be surprised if beef feed lotting was done much differently in america. They don't produce much lamb over there, and I can't really comment on the pork since I've never had anything to do with it. I expect that the pictures you see in videos like the one posted at the start of this thread just show the worst practices of a small section of a badly regulated industry. As for chicken in Australia, I know that both broilers and layers do live pretty shitty lives. The biggest chicken producing area in Australia is just down the road from me at Tamworth. My girlfriend was involved in an EPA project a year or two ago looking at assessing the industry's readiness for an avian flu outbreak. Her conclusion after touring a few chook sheds down that way was that although the birds do have a pretty shit life, if the industry is to stand a chance of surviving a flu outbreak they can't really do things any differently. If all the chicken consumed in australia was produced free range there would be virtually no chance of containing a disease outbreak, and the entire industry could be wiped out in a matter of weeks. Just look at the havoc this horse flu has caused. By the way, chickens in australia are NOT fed hormones or steroids to promote growth, and haven't been for over forty years.

As for slaughter methods - Sheep are generally stunned with an electric shock to the head before their throat is cut. Cattle are killed with a captive bolt gun and then have their throat cut. Electric prodders are used less and less now. We belong to a lamb marketing co-op that banned their use long ago. Aside from the animal welfare issue, its in the producer's best interest not to use them, because they leave bruises which result in docked carcass prices.

I didn't watch the videos Scott. I won't watch the videos. I'm extremely wary of PETA propaganda, but then I am of Meat Board propaganda also. But then I have my issues with the RSPCA too. I pretty much sit in the middle. See and hear as many sides of a debate and formulate my own opinion. I understand what you are saying about the bird flu, but I cannot believe that the only option is to treat chooks that way in an attempt to save them. I'm not saying they all need to be free range, as in wandering about the paddocks all day either, but that whole small, cramped cage, debeaking, never see the light of day bullshit does nothing for me either. There must be a happy medium in there somewhere. I find it extraordinary that producers know all kinds of things when it comes to what they do but they've not managed a better option for chooks than what we see. And the government is no better. I don't think they need to regulate the bejesus out of everything but clearly something needs to be done.

The horse flu outbreak from what I can gather has been a series of stuff ups and misadventures by humans who should have known better. It's a crying shame that people can be so ignorant when it comes to outbreak prevention.

Yeah, that explanation of the slaughter methods is pretty much what I remembered from the few discussions I've had on it. Sounds perfectly feasible and reasonable to me.

I'm not convinced about the hormones and steroids in the chooks, but you're not the first person to tell me that recently. Something funny is going on with chook. Just not sure what at this point.

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

If you give sheep a choice between fresh green grass or lucerne, or a bucket of oats or triticale, they'll go for the grain every time. Its not uncommon for accidents to happen where sheep find some grain and stuff themselves full of it, and then drop dead. Its usually sneaky lambs that will find a way through any fence. 'Bloody burgulars'll walk through the eye of needle!' as my old man says.

Yeah, they're interesting critters sheep! Can't say that I'm that big a fan of them. They always seemed to irritate me when I was up the farm. Could never seem to get the buggers to go where I wanted and I spent quite a bit of time chasing up the odd escapee. Bloody nuisances! Not like cows. Well milkers anyway. Those babies just step right up! But then lambs are cute! And I wouldn't be an Aussie if I didn't love my lamb roast!
I'm quite sure that grain is to sheep what toast is to my dog! Don't ever leave your toast unattended with him around or it'll vanish. But he's only allowed to have it as a treat. Rest of the time it's dog food for him.

69charger

Jeanie wrote:

If you're still praying this would explain a lot. Long before there was political correctness the world of food production was self regulating and corporations and producers wouldn't dream of doing the things they do today in worship of the almighty dollar. I've got no problem with people fending for themselves but the simple fact of the matter is that somebody, somewhere is getting rich at the expense of others on the planet, humans and animals alike and sooner rather than later that is going to have to stop because it simply isn't sustainable. When my family was farming there was never any need to be cruel to the animals that were slaughtered for our food and this was also the case for our neighbors and many other people in this country and around the world. Historically many people lived with and slaughtered animals humanely. It's not a new concept. So I don't see it as political correctness to demand that the bullshit behaviours we see going on today are stopped.

I'm gonna go kick a puppy in your name

Jeanie

69charger wrote:

I'm gonna go kick a puppy in your name

If you wanna kick something I suggest you pick on something your own size. I'm more than willing to let you have a shot at kicking me if you think it'll advance the situation for you.

69charger

Jeanie wrote:

If you wanna kick something I suggest you pick on something your own size. I'm more than willing to let you have a shot at kicking me if you think it'll advance the situation for you.

What if I already kicked the puppy? Can I still kick you? Maybe the puppy wants a shot at you for getting him kicked? I'll ask him when he wakes up from being knocked out by the huge kick I gave him that I said was from Jeanie.

Vedd Hedd

69charger wrote:

Yes.



I guess that would depend. Where would the chicken and I be going? Will he chip in for gas?



Maybe if it looked at me funny.



You say that like it's life is going to be long or something



BINGO! You understand my view.



I guess I already figured that out a while ago, but...



He must be doing something right!



Well, then you are wrong (scientifically speaking I guess).



Do you even understand what the food chain is?



Why? To make ourselves feel better? You can't make the point that we are the same as the animals and then in the same breath claim that we should be better than they are because we are "special".



Dead, alive, whatever. End result = Mmm Mmm Good!

Have you ever killed a fly, mosquito, or spider just because they annoyed you?

Fucking murderer...

Wow. I dont believe people like you actually exist. And you completely disregarded my entire point, but spent a great deal of time breaking down my post and using it out of context.

Its not about killing. Its about suffering. I eat meat all the time. I have cleaned and gutted my own fish. I have never hunted, but I dont suppose I would even have a problem with that.

I have killed flies and mosquitos, but Im not the type of person who picks their wings off, or puts them under magnifying glasses to watch them die.

But whatever, you condone torture, I dont. End of story, I guess.

Jeanie

69charger wrote:

What if I already kicked the puppy? Can I still kick you? Maybe the puppy wants a shot at you for getting him kicked? I'll ask him when he wakes up from being knocked out by the huge kick I gave him that I said was from Jeanie.

Guess you're not really worth bothering with. Must be some inbred limited mental capacity that's hampering your comprehension. Anyway, knock yourself out with the kicking. I'm more than happy to punch you in the face if you feel the need to kick me or the dog. And I'm quite sure the SPCA in your area has some lovely fines and jail time for people found being cruel to animals. Perhaps I should give them a ring and let them know about you?