But then I will admit I'm a tad iffy about them not being grass fed anymore. I realize that it's standard practice and I do understand the problem with us not having much grass with the drought I'm just hesitant on anything that's fed stuff that it wouldn't normally eat.
If you give sheep a choice between fresh green grass or lucerne, or a bucket of oats or triticale, they'll go for the grain every time. Its not uncommon for accidents to happen where sheep find some grain and stuff themselves full of it, and then drop dead. Its usually sneaky lambs that will find a way through any fence. 'Bloody burgulars'll walk through the eye of needle!' as my old man says.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
First "gourmet beef" for the boutique and organic markets is highly specialized, expensive, and not efficient to produce.
You've entirely missed the point. But I'm starting to understand why that doesn't surprise me. Efficiancy does not have to equal cruelty. It didn't in the past and it doesn't need to be in the future either.
Second, I happen to be an amature rocket scientist and feeding the world in a safe inexpensive way is far more difficult than building a rocket! Case in point: Been to the Moon, people still starve all over the world.
That has more to do with the ridiculous allocation of funds than anything else, not to mention politics, but you go play with your rockets. I feel your efforts would be much better served there.
I do pray for the day we all have to fend for ourselves again. No more political correctness!
If you're still praying this would explain a lot. Long before there was political correctness the world of food production was self regulating and corporations and producers wouldn't dream of doing the things they do today in worship of the almighty dollar. I've got no problem with people fending for themselves but the simple fact of the matter is that somebody, somewhere is getting rich at the expense of others on the planet, humans and animals alike and sooner rather than later that is going to have to stop because it simply isn't sustainable. When my family was farming there was never any need to be cruel to the animals that were slaughtered for our food and this was also the case for our neighbors and many other people in this country and around the world. Historically many people lived with and slaughtered animals humanely. It's not a new concept. So I don't see it as political correctness to demand that the bullshit behaviours we see going on today are stopped.
I'd be surprised if beef feed lotting was done much differently in america. They don't produce much lamb over there, and I can't really comment on the pork since I've never had anything to do with it. I expect that the pictures you see in videos like the one posted at the start of this thread just show the worst practices of a small section of a badly regulated industry. As for chicken in Australia, I know that both broilers and layers do live pretty shitty lives. The biggest chicken producing area in Australia is just down the road from me at Tamworth. My girlfriend was involved in an EPA project a year or two ago looking at assessing the industry's readiness for an avian flu outbreak. Her conclusion after touring a few chook sheds down that way was that although the birds do have a pretty shit life, if the industry is to stand a chance of surviving a flu outbreak they can't really do things any differently. If all the chicken consumed in australia was produced free range there would be virtually no chance of containing a disease outbreak, and the entire industry could be wiped out in a matter of weeks. Just look at the havoc this horse flu has caused. By the way, chickens in australia are NOT fed hormones or steroids to promote growth, and haven't been for over forty years.
As for slaughter methods - Sheep are generally stunned with an electric shock to the head before their throat is cut. Cattle are killed with a captive bolt gun and then have their throat cut. Electric prodders are used less and less now. We belong to a lamb marketing co-op that banned their use long ago. Aside from the animal welfare issue, its in the producer's best interest not to use them, because they leave bruises which result in docked carcass prices.
I didn't watch the videos Scott. I won't watch the videos. I'm extremely wary of PETA propaganda, but then I am of Meat Board propaganda also. But then I have my issues with the RSPCA too. I pretty much sit in the middle. See and hear as many sides of a debate and formulate my own opinion. I understand what you are saying about the bird flu, but I cannot believe that the only option is to treat chooks that way in an attempt to save them. I'm not saying they all need to be free range, as in wandering about the paddocks all day either, but that whole small, cramped cage, debeaking, never see the light of day bullshit does nothing for me either. There must be a happy medium in there somewhere. I find it extraordinary that producers know all kinds of things when it comes to what they do but they've not managed a better option for chooks than what we see. And the government is no better. I don't think they need to regulate the bejesus out of everything but clearly something needs to be done.
The horse flu outbreak from what I can gather has been a series of stuff ups and misadventures by humans who should have known better. It's a crying shame that people can be so ignorant when it comes to outbreak prevention.
Yeah, that explanation of the slaughter methods is pretty much what I remembered from the few discussions I've had on it. Sounds perfectly feasible and reasonable to me.
I'm not convinced about the hormones and steroids in the chooks, but you're not the first person to tell me that recently. Something funny is going on with chook. Just not sure what at this point.
If you give sheep a choice between fresh green grass or lucerne, or a bucket of oats or triticale, they'll go for the grain every time. Its not uncommon for accidents to happen where sheep find some grain and stuff themselves full of it, and then drop dead. Its usually sneaky lambs that will find a way through any fence. 'Bloody burgulars'll walk through the eye of needle!' as my old man says.
Yeah, they're interesting critters sheep! Can't say that I'm that big a fan of them. They always seemed to irritate me when I was up the farm. Could never seem to get the buggers to go where I wanted and I spent quite a bit of time chasing up the odd escapee. Bloody nuisances! Not like cows. Well milkers anyway. Those babies just step right up! But then lambs are cute! And I wouldn't be an Aussie if I didn't love my lamb roast!
I'm quite sure that grain is to sheep what toast is to my dog! Don't ever leave your toast unattended with him around or it'll vanish. But he's only allowed to have it as a treat. Rest of the time it's dog food for him.
If you're still praying this would explain a lot. Long before there was political correctness the world of food production was self regulating and corporations and producers wouldn't dream of doing the things they do today in worship of the almighty dollar. I've got no problem with people fending for themselves but the simple fact of the matter is that somebody, somewhere is getting rich at the expense of others on the planet, humans and animals alike and sooner rather than later that is going to have to stop because it simply isn't sustainable. When my family was farming there was never any need to be cruel to the animals that were slaughtered for our food and this was also the case for our neighbors and many other people in this country and around the world. Historically many people lived with and slaughtered animals humanely. It's not a new concept. So I don't see it as political correctness to demand that the bullshit behaviours we see going on today are stopped.
If you wanna kick something I suggest you pick on something your own size. I'm more than willing to let you have a shot at kicking me if you think it'll advance the situation for you.
If you wanna kick something I suggest you pick on something your own size. I'm more than willing to let you have a shot at kicking me if you think it'll advance the situation for you.
What if I already kicked the puppy? Can I still kick you? Maybe the puppy wants a shot at you for getting him kicked? I'll ask him when he wakes up from being knocked out by the huge kick I gave him that I said was from Jeanie.
I guess that would depend. Where would the chicken and I be going? Will he chip in for gas?
Maybe if it looked at me funny.
You say that like it's life is going to be long or something
BINGO! You understand my view.
I guess I already figured that out a while ago, but...
He must be doing something right!
Well, then you are wrong (scientifically speaking I guess).
Do you even understand what the food chain is?
Why? To make ourselves feel better? You can't make the point that we are the same as the animals and then in the same breath claim that we should be better than they are because we are "special".
Dead, alive, whatever. End result = Mmm Mmm Good!
Have you ever killed a fly, mosquito, or spider just because they annoyed you?
Fucking murderer...
Wow. I dont believe people like you actually exist. And you completely disregarded my entire point, but spent a great deal of time breaking down my post and using it out of context.
Its not about killing. Its about suffering. I eat meat all the time. I have cleaned and gutted my own fish. I have never hunted, but I dont suppose I would even have a problem with that.
I have killed flies and mosquitos, but Im not the type of person who picks their wings off, or puts them under magnifying glasses to watch them die.
But whatever, you condone torture, I dont. End of story, I guess.
What if I already kicked the puppy? Can I still kick you? Maybe the puppy wants a shot at you for getting him kicked? I'll ask him when he wakes up from being knocked out by the huge kick I gave him that I said was from Jeanie.
Guess you're not really worth bothering with. Must be some inbred limited mental capacity that's hampering your comprehension. Anyway, knock yourself out with the kicking. I'm more than happy to punch you in the face if you feel the need to kick me or the dog. And I'm quite sure the SPCA in your area has some lovely fines and jail time for people found being cruel to animals. Perhaps I should give them a ring and let them know about you?
Guess you're not really worth bothering with. Must be some inbred limited mental capacity that's hampering your comprehension. Anyway, knock yourself out with the kicking. I'm more than happy to punch you in the face if you feel the need to kick me or the dog. And I'm quite sure the SPCA in your area has some lovely fines and jail time for people found being cruel to animals. Perhaps I should give them a ring and let them know about you?
I just ate the puppy. He didn't ever come out of his kick-induced coma. So the SPCA won't find much. There is a leftover leg in the fridge but I'll have that for breakfast. Better call 'em quick!
I just ate the puppy. He didn't ever come out of his kick-induced coma. So the SPCA won't find much. There is a leftover leg in the fridge but I'll have that for breakfast. Better call 'em quick!
You should go play on the road now. Preferably a 6 lane highway.
Anyway, I'm done with you. If you are being serious, as far as I can see you're a pathetic excuse for a human being at best and gonna be pillow biting in jail soon enough with or without my help.
And seeing as how none of this advances the thread, I'll be sticking to my quest for "cruelty free" meat and animal products. Not to mention continuing to purchase "cruelty free" beauty and bathroom products. And doing everything in my power to lessen my impact on the habitat of animals.
If you are being serious, as far as I can see you're a pathetic excuse for a human being at best and gonna be pillow biting in jail soon enough with or without my help.
Being serious?!? Are YOU serious! Yeah, I kicked and ate a puppy for real :rolleyes:
I'll be sticking to my quest for "cruelty free" meat and animal products. Not to mention continuing to purchase "cruelty free" beauty and bathroom products. And doing everything in my power to lessen my impact on the habitat of animals.
...and I will strive for the opposite, just to make you mad
why would even joke about kicking a puppy? and if you're not joking then you are an asshole. I hope a cow eats YOU.
Heh, you two (you and Jeanie) take the bait way too easily. . .
Jeanie, sheep can be infuriating, but they're really quite easy to deal with once you get the hang of them, and they're very delicious. All you poor pork eating americans don't know what you're missing out on. I don't think I saw lamb once during my three month stint in the US recently.
By the way - just another bit of info for you. I looked at your gay big brother mate's website. All sounds pretty good, and I think they have some good innovative ideas to help both producers and consumers, but his sales pitch about their lamb being hormone free is pretty lame. All lamb in australia is hormone free as far as I am aware. And yes pretty much all lamb producers do use some drugs and chemicals. These are mostly vaccines to prevent diseases like pulpy kidney, dips and drenches to prevent internal and external parasites like worms, lice etc, and insecticides to treat fly strike. In my opinion its producers of so called 'organic' lamb that should be accused of animal cruelty, because they leave their stock vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and parasites. If you'd even seen a badly fly blown sheep I'm sure you would agree.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
don't answer a question with a question ignoring my original question and then expect me to answer your question. any further questions, don't bother, i'm not playing.
don't answer a question with a question ignoring my original question and then expect me to answer your question. any further questions, don't bother, i'm not playing.
Why would I joke about kicking a puppy? Because it offends people like you two fine ladies
Why would I joke about kicking a puppy? Because it offends people like you two fine ladies
One wonders what you have to gain by spending your time offending people on the internet. Boredom relief maybe. But this discussion though does bring out a possible hypocricy in many animal cruelty discussions. Adamant condemnations of Michael Vick while eating a chicken dinner for example.
well i've done a bit of research online - thanks vedd hedd for all the links you've posted - and sad to say, not too many choices. given where i live, rather surprising. however....definitely have a whole foods nearby, so it looks like we may have buy all our meat there in the future. wish it were a BIT closer....but none the less, happy to read all about their program/commitment. good stuff. it's just such a shame how bloody expensive things of this nature are....good ole supply/demand....but hopefully if enough of us start making these choices, they will become more widely available, less expensive....and less and less animals will have miserable lives of suffering. so in that sense, win-win.
Jeanie, sheep can be infuriating, but they're really quite easy to deal with once you get the hang of them, and they're very delicious. All you poor pork eating americans don't know what you're missing out on. I don't think I saw lamb once during my three month stint in the US recently.
I reckon if I was around them all the time, they were familiar with me and knew I was the keeper of the food, we'd get along a whole lot better Scott. Critters seem to be much more pliable when they know you'll feed them! And I agree! I'd take lamb roast over pork any day!
By the way - just another bit of info for you. I looked at your gay big brother mate's website. All sounds pretty good, and I think they have some good innovative ideas to help both producers and consumers, but his sales pitch about their lamb being hormone free is pretty lame. All lamb in australia is hormone free as far as I am aware. And yes pretty much all lamb producers do use some drugs and chemicals. These are mostly vaccines to prevent diseases like pulpy kidney, dips and drenches to prevent internal and external parasites like worms, lice etc, and insecticides to treat fly strike. In my opinion its producers of so called 'organic' lamb that should be accused of animal cruelty, because they leave their stock vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and parasites. If you'd even seen a badly fly blown sheep I'm sure you would agree.
Well can I just say from a lay persons pov, I wouldn't know that about them all being hormone free and the fact that he's making that claim is pretty clever really because it's what I'm looking for. Also he did get back to me via email quite promptly and address the issue of fly strike and muelsing :
Thirdly our lambs are not muelsed or marked with a blade, instead we use genetics to eliminate fly strike and rubber pressure rings for tail docking and castration.
I agree with you regarding the fly blown sheep Scott, and I understand that muelsing is a fairly standard practice, you'll have to forgive me my citified, "greeny" thinking but if there's an alternative to it that is viable, safe and effective then I'm going for it.
I reckon I'll place an order with the guy. His stuff is sounding pretty good so far to me. I tell you though if we get the farm off the ground and we're looking for sheep, I might be back to ask more questions if you don't mind.
Ok, of the two links I posted earlier in the thread, I emailed both to find out about their animal care and slaughter practices.
I've only heard back from Farmer Dave, who was really helpful, so I just thought I'd mention that and if anyone would like the content of his email response let me know. I'm not sure I should post it on the open forum.
Comments
If you give sheep a choice between fresh green grass or lucerne, or a bucket of oats or triticale, they'll go for the grain every time. Its not uncommon for accidents to happen where sheep find some grain and stuff themselves full of it, and then drop dead. Its usually sneaky lambs that will find a way through any fence. 'Bloody burgulars'll walk through the eye of needle!' as my old man says.
-C Addison
You've entirely missed the point. But I'm starting to understand why that doesn't surprise me. Efficiancy does not have to equal cruelty. It didn't in the past and it doesn't need to be in the future either.
That has more to do with the ridiculous allocation of funds than anything else, not to mention politics, but you go play with your rockets. I feel your efforts would be much better served there.
If you're still praying this would explain a lot. Long before there was political correctness the world of food production was self regulating and corporations and producers wouldn't dream of doing the things they do today in worship of the almighty dollar. I've got no problem with people fending for themselves but the simple fact of the matter is that somebody, somewhere is getting rich at the expense of others on the planet, humans and animals alike and sooner rather than later that is going to have to stop because it simply isn't sustainable. When my family was farming there was never any need to be cruel to the animals that were slaughtered for our food and this was also the case for our neighbors and many other people in this country and around the world. Historically many people lived with and slaughtered animals humanely. It's not a new concept. So I don't see it as political correctness to demand that the bullshit behaviours we see going on today are stopped.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I didn't watch the videos Scott. I won't watch the videos. I'm extremely wary of PETA propaganda, but then I am of Meat Board propaganda also. But then I have my issues with the RSPCA too. I pretty much sit in the middle. See and hear as many sides of a debate and formulate my own opinion. I understand what you are saying about the bird flu, but I cannot believe that the only option is to treat chooks that way in an attempt to save them. I'm not saying they all need to be free range, as in wandering about the paddocks all day either, but that whole small, cramped cage, debeaking, never see the light of day bullshit does nothing for me either. There must be a happy medium in there somewhere. I find it extraordinary that producers know all kinds of things when it comes to what they do but they've not managed a better option for chooks than what we see. And the government is no better. I don't think they need to regulate the bejesus out of everything but clearly something needs to be done.
The horse flu outbreak from what I can gather has been a series of stuff ups and misadventures by humans who should have known better. It's a crying shame that people can be so ignorant when it comes to outbreak prevention.
Yeah, that explanation of the slaughter methods is pretty much what I remembered from the few discussions I've had on it. Sounds perfectly feasible and reasonable to me.
I'm not convinced about the hormones and steroids in the chooks, but you're not the first person to tell me that recently. Something funny is going on with chook. Just not sure what at this point.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'm quite sure that grain is to sheep what toast is to my dog! Don't ever leave your toast unattended with him around or it'll vanish. But he's only allowed to have it as a treat. Rest of the time it's dog food for him.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'm gonna go kick a puppy in your name
If you wanna kick something I suggest you pick on something your own size. I'm more than willing to let you have a shot at kicking me if you think it'll advance the situation for you.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
What if I already kicked the puppy? Can I still kick you? Maybe the puppy wants a shot at you for getting him kicked? I'll ask him when he wakes up from being knocked out by the huge kick I gave him that I said was from Jeanie.
Wow. I dont believe people like you actually exist. And you completely disregarded my entire point, but spent a great deal of time breaking down my post and using it out of context.
Its not about killing. Its about suffering. I eat meat all the time. I have cleaned and gutted my own fish. I have never hunted, but I dont suppose I would even have a problem with that.
I have killed flies and mosquitos, but Im not the type of person who picks their wings off, or puts them under magnifying glasses to watch them die.
But whatever, you condone torture, I dont. End of story, I guess.
Nuclear fission
Guess you're not really worth bothering with. Must be some inbred limited mental capacity that's hampering your comprehension. Anyway, knock yourself out with the kicking. I'm more than happy to punch you in the face if you feel the need to kick me or the dog. And I'm quite sure the SPCA in your area has some lovely fines and jail time for people found being cruel to animals. Perhaps I should give them a ring and let them know about you?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I just ate the puppy. He didn't ever come out of his kick-induced coma. So the SPCA won't find much. There is a leftover leg in the fridge but I'll have that for breakfast. Better call 'em quick!
You should go play on the road now. Preferably a 6 lane highway.
Anyway, I'm done with you. If you are being serious, as far as I can see you're a pathetic excuse for a human being at best and gonna be pillow biting in jail soon enough with or without my help.
And seeing as how none of this advances the thread, I'll be sticking to my quest for "cruelty free" meat and animal products. Not to mention continuing to purchase "cruelty free" beauty and bathroom products. And doing everything in my power to lessen my impact on the habitat of animals.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Being serious?!? Are YOU serious! Yeah, I kicked and ate a puppy for real :rolleyes:
...and I will strive for the opposite, just to make you mad
You folks aren't seriously this naive?
Heh, you two (you and Jeanie) take the bait way too easily. . .
Jeanie, sheep can be infuriating, but they're really quite easy to deal with once you get the hang of them, and they're very delicious. All you poor pork eating americans don't know what you're missing out on. I don't think I saw lamb once during my three month stint in the US recently.
By the way - just another bit of info for you. I looked at your gay big brother mate's website. All sounds pretty good, and I think they have some good innovative ideas to help both producers and consumers, but his sales pitch about their lamb being hormone free is pretty lame. All lamb in australia is hormone free as far as I am aware. And yes pretty much all lamb producers do use some drugs and chemicals. These are mostly vaccines to prevent diseases like pulpy kidney, dips and drenches to prevent internal and external parasites like worms, lice etc, and insecticides to treat fly strike. In my opinion its producers of so called 'organic' lamb that should be accused of animal cruelty, because they leave their stock vulnerable to all kinds of diseases and parasites. If you'd even seen a badly fly blown sheep I'm sure you would agree.
-C Addison
Why would I joke about kicking a puppy? Because it offends people like you two fine ladies
One wonders what you have to gain by spending your time offending people on the internet. Boredom relief maybe. But this discussion though does bring out a possible hypocricy in many animal cruelty discussions. Adamant condemnations of Michael Vick while eating a chicken dinner for example.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
meh!
I reckon if I was around them all the time, they were familiar with me and knew I was the keeper of the food, we'd get along a whole lot better Scott. Critters seem to be much more pliable when they know you'll feed them! And I agree! I'd take lamb roast over pork any day!
Well can I just say from a lay persons pov, I wouldn't know that about them all being hormone free and the fact that he's making that claim is pretty clever really because it's what I'm looking for. Also he did get back to me via email quite promptly and address the issue of fly strike and muelsing :
Thirdly our lambs are not muelsed or marked with a blade, instead we use genetics to eliminate fly strike and rubber pressure rings for tail docking and castration.
I agree with you regarding the fly blown sheep Scott, and I understand that muelsing is a fairly standard practice, you'll have to forgive me my citified, "greeny" thinking but if there's an alternative to it that is viable, safe and effective then I'm going for it.
I reckon I'll place an order with the guy. His stuff is sounding pretty good so far to me. I tell you though if we get the farm off the ground and we're looking for sheep, I might be back to ask more questions if you don't mind.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I've only heard back from Farmer Dave, who was really helpful, so I just thought I'd mention that and if anyone would like the content of his email response let me know. I'm not sure I should post it on the open forum.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift