But you haven't said anything to back-up your so-called knowledge of write and wrong!
All I'm saying is, you can't judge a (wo)man until you've walked a mile in her shoes - and some people have walked much farther than others.
When have I judge the woman? I believe that abortion is wrong. I never said that the woman that gets an abortion is terrible. There are many factors at play that cause woman to get abortions. If I was told all my life that something was my "right", I could likely act on that "right". However, you don't have to be a woman or be a social worker to have an opinion.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
And as a single mom that hasn't worked (because I don't "have to") in almost three years... I am not jealous of other's wealth. I have my own. And I share it. And I donate it. Frequently to NARAL in fact.
Seriously.... Do you know what green disease is about?
And as a single mom that hasn't worked (because I don't "have to") in almost three years... I am not jealous of other's wealth. I have my own. And I share it. And I donate it. Frequently to NARAL in fact.
Seriously.... Do you know what green disease is about?
May I ask why you "don't have to work"?
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
And as a single mom that hasn't worked (because I don't "have to") in almost three years... I am not jealous of other's wealth. I have my own. And I share it. And I donate it. Frequently to NARAL in fact.
Seriously.... Do you know what green disease is about?
OMG!!!
That is so funny!!
OBVIOUSLY he doesn't know what green disease is about. There has not been one thing said by GTFLYGIRL that would imply she was suffering from:
"G-R-E-E-D"
Man. There are some incredibly judgmental people in this world.
OBVIOUSLY he doesn't know what green disease is about. There has not been one thing said by GTFLYGIRL that would imply she was suffering from:
"G-R-E-E-D"
Man. There are some incredibly judgmental people in this world.
She is the one judging by job title. I hope that she is a generous soul, like I hope everyone else is. I just wanna know why she cares about my occupation.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
She is the one judging by job title. I hope that she is a generous soul, like I hope everyone else is. I just wanna know why she cares about my occupation.
Seems you have said PLENTY to have people judge you on your words and opinions.
I looked at some profiles and it is rather interesting that a FEW of you pro lifers are male accountants....
Seems you have said PLENTY to have people judge you on your words and opinions.
I looked at some profiles and it is rather interesting that a FEW of you pro lifers are male accountants....
Somebody needs to bring practicality to this board.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
When have I judge the woman? I believe that abortion is wrong. I never said that the woman that gets an abortion is terrible. There are many factors at play that cause woman to get abortions. If I was told all my life that something was my "right", I could likely act on that "right". However, you don't have to be a woman or be a social worker to have an opinion.
For one thing, you are judging that she is wrong as if you know better or are better than her! Your answer is right in your question. You are judging whether or not she should get an abortion, as if she can't make that decision for herself. You have likened abortion to genocide, which implies that the women (and doctors) are Nazis. You have used the term "feminazi," implying that women who want the choice to have an abortion (and most women who have had abortions fall into this group) are Nazis. You have asserted that sexual assault statistics are blown out of proportion, which judges/minimizes at least the experience of those who have been sexually assaulted. And, most blatantly, you've said that abortion is because of "irresponsible people that resist to take responsibility for their own actions."
And, while it's true that you don't have to be a woman or a social worker to have an opinion, it's also true that some opinions are better-informed than others.
Now this is more like what I’m used to hearing. It’s interesting to me because it seems to take a different tone (judgment-wise) than the previous section of your post, and the issue of multiple abortions seems to be the turning point. I guess everyone has opinions and there’s a fine line between having an opinion and being judgmental, so I’m not saying you’ve crossed that line.
I apologize if my comments seemed preachy, judgmental, or holier than thou. One's concept of personal responsibility varies, but I think that people should be using contraception/protection if they aren't planning to have children (and also to avoid diseases etc) but also rethinking their lifestyle or birth control methods if they need to have repeated abortions. I know it sounds lame, but the ability to have children for some women is a gift and I feel it belittles those women who are unable to have children (at the moment, this includes a good friend of mine) when some women have multiple abortions due to the lives they lead. By lifestyle, I don't mean a lifestyle that is in keeping with Church doctrine. Personally, I just hold the view that excessively promiscuous behaviour is really problematic for everyone involved. I mean really I don't care if you're a guy or a girl who wants to sleep around until your partner tally is in triple figures, but I think in the long run it'll just hurt you. That's the lifestyle I mean. And the people I have known who had several abortions (and by this I mean 3 or more within a two year period) tend to prefer meaningless sex and excessive drinking and drug binges. Don't get me wrong, I am not some conformist puritan, I just think people need to grow up and stop fucking around. Being a potential young teenage mother is one thing, but I am talking about friends of mine who are pushing 30 and spent their lives living quite affluently. As a teacher, I see the effects of people who don't want to grow up and that's the type of lifestyle I'm refering to. In my humble opinion, some people tend to use abortions as a form of contraception and this is my issue because they are hurting themselves in the long run. Moreover, I want to point out that I feel that the majority of women who choose abortions do agonize over these decisions and certainly do live responsible lives. However, I am very bothered by a moral relativist approach that says that morality is up to the individual. It certainly is to a degree and I disagree with the legislation of morality but the decadence and Me-attitude of the West is disturbing.
Eh-I'm kinda going on a rant. To finish, I would just like to say that the whole pro-choice, anti-choice thing is simply a matter of semantics. And my problem with it is that when we label other movements as this or that, we are essentially just name-calling. It's bad enough that we have these arguments, but it's even worse when we attempt to tell our opponents what they actually believe (i.e. "It seems to me that pro-lifers believe that..."). One of the hallmarks of conflict resolution is to better understand the position of our opponent rather than to dictate what that position is in our own biased point of view.
Man. I lurk on this damn board for years and when I decide to finally chime in, I get into a debate that I'm usually on the other side of. I feel like a fifth columnist.
p.s. I want it to be clear that it may seem like I am singling out women when I speak of responsibility, I assure you this is only due to the fact it is their bodies we are talking about. I think that men by far are much worse when it comes to risky behaviour and poor lifestyle choices. Moreover, my views on what I deem to be a pathological lifestyle do not change the fact that I also believe any woman should be able to have an abortion if so she chooses even if she's already had fifty for that matter.
Somebody needs to bring practicality to this board.
Exactly! And how can someone with little/no practical experience in this subject do that?
You can feel free to give me practical advice on how to spend my money, but your opinion about my personal life or reproductive decisions has much less validity.
For one thing, you are judging that she is wrong as if you know better or are better than her! Your answer is right in your question. You are judging whether or not she should get an abortion, as if she can't make that decision for herself. You have likened abortion to genocide, which implies that the women (and doctors) are Nazis. You have used the term "feminazi," implying that women who want the choice to have an abortion (and most women who have had abortions fall into this group) are Nazis. You have asserted that sexual assault statistics are blown out of proportion, which judges/minimizes at least the experience of those who have been sexually assaulted. And, most blatantly, you've said that abortion is because of "irresponsible people that resist to take responsibility for their own actions."
And, while it's true that you don't have to be a woman or a social worker to have an opinion, it's also true that some opinions are better-informed than others.
I have really always wondered why men (who aren't specifically the other half of a woman who is considering an abortion) even comment on abortion in the general public? I understand having a passionate view on something, but isn't it a woman that makes the "choice" and has to live with it (no matter if she feels guilt or relief)?
Don't rant and rave at me, lovely board men. It is just a question and nothing more...
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
For one thing, you are judging that she is wrong as if you know better or are better than her! Your answer is right in your question. You are judging whether or not she should get an abortion, as if she can't make that decision for herself. You have likened abortion to genocide, which implies that the women (and doctors) are Nazis. You have used the term "feminazi," implying that women who want the choice to have an abortion (and most women who have had abortions fall into this group) are Nazis. You have asserted that sexual assault statistics are blown out of proportion, which judges/minimizes at least the experience of those who have been sexually assaulted. And, most blatantly, you've said that abortion is because of "irresponsible people that resist to take responsibility for their own actions."
And, while it's true that you don't have to be a woman or a social worker to have an opinion, it's also true that some opinions are better-informed than others.
Point 1: It's a debate, we both think that the other is wrong.
Point 2: Life> Choice
Point 3: Look up the definition of genocide. If you believe the fetus is a life, then abortion is genocide.
Point 4: The term feminazis is a pet name given to feminists by consevatives. We don't actually believe that feminists are nazis.
Point 5: The sexual assualt statistics given were bloated. They were numbers used to provide backing to an agenda. My recognizing that those numbers were inaccurate doesn'y minimize or trivialize the experiences of those girls and woman. I feel sympathy for anyone that experiences such a horrible experience and wish harsh punishments on those who commit such crimes.
Point 6: I used the term irresponsible for people who weren't raped. I believe if you endulge yourself in irresponsible behaivor, you don't deserve an easy way out. Pregnancy is a possible consequence of sex. If you get pregnant there is a responsible way of dealing with that.
Point 7: Your assumption my of opinion of not being well informed is insulting.
With that, I wish you all a great evening. God bless you all. I will leave this board with respect for all thoughts conveyed tonight. I thought this was a fun debate. Hopefully, nobody's feelings were too hurt. With all seriousness, I will give a special prayer for victims of assualt tommorow at mass. And no I don't think I am a better person for that.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Point 1: It's a debate, we both think that the other is wrong.
Point 2: Life> Choice
Point 3: Look up the definition of genocide. If you believe the fetus is a life, then abortion is genocide.
Point 4: The term feminazis is a pet name given to feminists by consevatives. We don't actually believe that feminists are nazis.
Point 5: The sexual assualt statistics given were bloated. They were numbers used to provide backing to an agenda. My recognizing that those numbers were inaccurate doesn'y minimize or trivialize the experiences of those girls and woman. I feel sympathy for anyone that experiences such a horrible experience and wish harsh punishments on those who commit such crimes.
Point 6: I used the term irresponsible for people who weren't raped. I believe if you endulge yourself in irresponsible behaivor, you don't deserve a easy way out. Pregnancy is a possible consequence of sex. If you get pregnant their is a responsible way of dealing with that.
Point 7: Your assumption of opinion of not being well informed is insulting.
With that, I wish you all a great evening. God bless you all. I will leave this board with respect for all thoughts conveyed tonight. I thought this was a fun debate. Hopefully, nobody's feelings were too hurt. With all seriousness, I will give a special prayer for victims of assualt tommorow at mass.
Instead of just saying you recognize bloated numbers, why don't you provide your own? Ones that are as equally credible as RAINN. Instead of claiming they're used to "support agendas" why the hell don't you show us some numbers? Ones that don't come out of your head? Because there's plenty of information, not tied in anyway to prolife or prochoice movements, that back up what I've already told you.
I have really always wondered why men (who aren't specifically the other half of a woman who is considering an abortion) even comment on abortion in the general public? I understand having a passionate view on something, but isn't it a woman that makes the "choice" and has to live with it (no matter if she feels guilt or relief)?
Don't rant and rave at me, lovely board men. It is just a question and nothing more...
Take care,
You are definitely 17.
"I don't believe in PJ fans but I believe there is something, not too sure what." - Thoughts_Arrive
I have really always wondered why men (who aren't specifically the other half of a woman who is considering an abortion) even comment on abortion in the general public? I understand having a passionate view on something, but isn't it a woman that makes the "choice" and has to live with it (no matter if she feels guilt or relief)?
Don't rant and rave at me, lovely board men. It is just a question and nothing more...
Do you mean as in age? If so, I happen to be 36 years old.
My question comes from being a woman for 36 of those years, loosing two babies (beyond my control), doing IVF to finally have one, and running a pregnancy loss website for the last 10 years. Beyond that--I am pro-choice in the sense that I feel that it isn't my obligation or right to tell anyone else what to do. My "choice" might not be what others would choose, but it's not my "right" to inflict my opinions on others.
It was just a question, and while I can't tell if you are being a smart-ass, don't reply if you can't answer it!
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
You mean...that if someone feel strongly about something that they take it into themselves, even if they will never have to make that "choice"? I can understand that.
Thanks for giving a straight answer without assuming I had an agenda.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
You mean...that if someone feel strongly about something that they take it into themselves, even if they will never have to make that "choice"? I can understand that.
Thanks for giving a straight answer without assuming I had an agenda.
Take care,
Well, I think it comes with everyone having an opinion and wanting the opinion to matter and be heard. I do think it's sometimes ridiculous that guys sometimes yell more loudly than the women when it comes to these, especially the ones where their wants has major impact on women and hardly, if any, on them.
Well, I think it comes with everyone having an opinion and wanting the opinion to matter and be heard. I do think it's sometimes ridiculous that guys sometimes yell more loudly than the women when it comes to these, especially the ones where their wants has major impact on women and hardly, if any, on them.
Thanks so much. The first line really hit a chord with me, and I do think that is true in many aspects.
The second part is exactly why I was asking in the first place, but you said it better than I could have. I just find it strange that so many who protest the loudest do it with hate ("murderers!", "whores!!", etc.)--although those aren't the norm. For the most part, I think that people are more calm about it. I do remember when the doctor in Pensacola was killed and there were actually pro-lifers who thought that was okay. WTF?
It's like the middle east--the debate shall (and does) go on.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
wow we can sure spin off in these threads, can't we? (and I mean "we" including myslef not at all condescending; truly)...........
I am both pro life and pro choice. Is that possible do you think? I mean, abortion is not contraception I do not believe. We should be responsible before the act not after, you know?
But that said, we also can't put ourselves in others' shoes as to what they should do. If someone is having a lot of procedures, then they need to really get some professional help because that is fucked up for sure. But most women will get one or two in their lifetimes if at all, and that is usually because maybe they are young, or in more severe cases, they choose to abort because the fetus/baby is clearly not well.
I sat in church many times when the pro life people would come and I saw the people in my church filling up baby bottles with money or donating baby items, etc for the unwed mothers who chose to have the baby as opposed to aborting it, and I always thought, "gee, that's great, but does anyone actually follow up with these girls to support them after the baby is born?"
and by support, I mean emotionally not financially.
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
"I am both pro life and pro choice. Is that possible do you think?"
This issue, like many is not totally black and white. Like I said, I would not choose to have an abortion, but if my friend felt that she needed to, I would support her and not judge her.
I think we all have to go with what our hearts tell us, and that should be okay.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
I apologize if my comments seemed preachy, judgmental, or holier than thou. One's concept of personal responsibility varies, but I think that people should be using contraception/protection if they aren't planning to have children (and also to avoid diseases etc) but also rethinking their lifestyle or birth control methods if they need to have repeated abortions. I know it sounds lame, but the ability to have children for some women is a gift and I feel it belittles those women who are unable to have children (at the moment, this includes a good friend of mine) when some women have multiple abortions due to the lives they lead. By lifestyle, I don't mean a lifestyle that is in keeping with Church doctrine. Personally, I just hold the view that excessively promiscuous behaviour is really problematic for everyone involved. I mean really I don't care if you're a guy or a girl who wants to sleep around until your partner tally is in triple figures, but I think in the long run it'll just hurt you. That's the lifestyle I mean. And the people I have known who had several abortions (and by this I mean 3 or more within a two year period) tend to prefer meaningless sex and excessive drinking and drug binges. Don't get me wrong, I am not some conformist puritan, I just think people need to grow up and stop fucking around. Being a potential young teenage mother is one thing, but I am talking about friends of mine who are pushing 30 and spent their lives living quite affluently. As a teacher, I see the effects of people who don't want to grow up and that's the type of lifestyle I'm refering to. In my humble opinion, some people tend to use abortions as a form of contraception and this is my issue because they are hurting themselves in the long run. Moreover, I want to point out that I feel that the majority of women who choose abortions do agonize over these decisions and certainly do live responsible lives. However, I am very bothered by a moral relativist approach that says that morality is up to the individual. It certainly is to a degree and I disagree with the legislation of morality but the decadence and Me-attitude of the West is disturbing.
Eh-I'm kinda going on a rant. To finish, I would just like to say that the whole pro-choice, anti-choice thing is simply a matter of semantics. And my problem with it is that when we label other movements as this or that, we are essentially just name-calling. It's bad enough that we have these arguments, but it's even worse when we attempt to tell our opponents what they actually believe (i.e. "It seems to me that pro-lifers believe that..."). One of the hallmarks of conflict resolution is to better understand the position of our opponent rather than to dictate what that position is in our own biased point of view.
Man. I lurk on this damn board for years and when I decide to finally chime in, I get into a debate that I'm usually on the other side of. I feel like a fifth columnist.
p.s. I want it to be clear that it may seem like I am singling out women when I speak of responsibility, I assure you this is only due to the fact it is their bodies we are talking about. I think that men by far are much worse when it comes to risky behaviour and poor lifestyle choices. Moreover, my views on what I deem to be a pathological lifestyle do not change the fact that I also believe any woman should be able to have an abortion if so she chooses even if she's already had fifty for that matter.
moses-i! It's so good to see you back and with another thoughtful post!
First off, which side of the debate are you saying you're usually and currently on? Just checking.
I agree that excessively promiscuous behavior can be quite problematic and I certainly don’t promote it. I just hear so many people, even pro-choice people, characterize women who have abortions (especially multiple abortions) as irresponsible and that bothers me. I have known hundreds of women who have had abortions (over 1/3 of U.S. women will have one at some point) and I don’t believe any of them deserve to be judged. I think it’s critical to not only put oneself in the shoes of these women, but also to do an internal clarification of one’s own values and how they are formed. I’m not saying you are judging, just that I’m particularly sensitive to any hint of that attitude, so I apologize if I got defensive at all.
The majority of women having abortions were using birth control. Women try to be responsible, but birth control fails and many women just don’t have reliable access to it. I hear so many people say that women use abortion as birth control. In fact, a sexually active woman using abortion as birth control who wanted two children would have about 30 abortions by the age of 45. I’ve never seen a woman in the U.S. who has had that many abortions. But the U.S. has one of the highest unintended pregnancy rates in the developed world, and that is a problem for promiscuous and non-promiscuous, married and unmarried, and contracepting and non-contracepting women alike.
I feel very strongly that we could significantly reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and therefore the number of abortions if we had better access to birth control and better sex education. (We could also reduce the number of later-term abortions if we had better access to earlier abortions.) Unfortunately, I feel that the Catholic Church gets in the way of this progress.
Haha – now I guess I’m on a rant! Sorry.
Regarding your last point, though, it is not my intention to mischaracterize other people’s beliefs, but to clarify them (and I don’t find clarification in the term “pro-life”). So I’ll just ask you straight-up: are you pro-choice?
wow we can sure spin off in these threads, can't we? (and I mean "we" including myslef not at all condescending; truly)...........
I am both pro life and pro choice. Is that possible do you think? I mean, abortion is not contraception I do not believe. We should be responsible before the act not after, you know?
But that said, we also can't put ourselves in others' shoes as to what they should do. If someone is having a lot of procedures, then they need to really get some professional help because that is fucked up for sure. But most women will get one or two in their lifetimes if at all, and that is usually because maybe they are young, or in more severe cases, they choose to abort because the fetus/baby is clearly not well.
I sat in church many times when the pro life people would come and I saw the people in my church filling up baby bottles with money or donating baby items, etc for the unwed mothers who chose to have the baby as opposed to aborting it, and I always thought, "gee, that's great, but does anyone actually follow up with these girls to support them after the baby is born?"
and by support, I mean emotionally not financially.
I think everyone who is prochoice is prolife also. I've never met anyone who thought abortion was a good thing. Everyone wishes that abortions didn't have to happen, that every child that was conceived was given a life worth living. And it's always easier to throw some money at a problem to heal your conscience than to heal the problem itself.
I think everyone who is prochoice is prolife also. I've never met anyone who thought abortion was a good thing. Everyone wishes that abortions didn't have to happen, that every child that was conceived was given a life worth living. And it's always easier to throw some money at a problem to heal your conscience than to heal the problem itself.
God...you are so eloquent in this thread, I am going to go back and read your older posts.
Take care,
I still want you all to "take care"--I am just damn tired of typing it.
Point 1: It's a debate, we both think that the other is wrong.
No shit. But I'm not talking about your judgement of me. I'm talking about your judgement of women who have abortions, because you said you don't judge them.
gen·o·cide
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Hmm... doesn't quite seem to fit to me since we abort fetuses of all nations, races, political affiliations, and cultures and we don't try to abort all fetuses.
(Plus, I never actually conceded that a fetus is a person.)
This argument kind of reminds me of that Tool song that goes:
Point 5: The sexual assualt statistics given were bloated. They were numbers used to provide backing to an agenda. My recognizing that those numbers were inaccurate doesn'y minimize or trivialize the experiences of those girls and woman. I feel sympathy for anyone that experiences such a horrible experience and wish harsh punishments on those who commit such crimes.
Once again, you have yet to back this up in any way.
Point 6: I used the term irresponsible for people who weren't raped. I believe if you endulge yourself in irresponsible behaivor, you don't deserve an easy way out. Pregnancy is a possible consequence of sex. If you get pregnant there is a responsible way of dealing with that.
We could have just skipped to this one, I guess. Because it sounds like you're acknowledging your judgement of women who have abortions who weren't raped.
Point 7: Your assumption my of opinion of not being well informed is insulting.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If you'll note, I didn't say you're not well-informed - just that some other people are quite likely to be even better-informed than you are.
With that, I wish you all a great evening. God bless you all. I will leave this board with respect for all thoughts conveyed tonight. I thought this was a fun debate. Hopefully, nobody's feelings were too hurt. With all seriousness, I will give a special prayer for victims of assualt tommorow at mass. And no I don't think I am a better person for that.
Comments
When have I judge the woman? I believe that abortion is wrong. I never said that the woman that gets an abortion is terrible. There are many factors at play that cause woman to get abortions. If I was told all my life that something was my "right", I could likely act on that "right". However, you don't have to be a woman or be a social worker to have an opinion.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Wow. That's funny!!!
Do you know what the song is about?
Are you implying that I'm greedy?
Jealous? Huh???
I'm not even SLIGHTLY greedy...
And as a single mom that hasn't worked (because I don't "have to") in almost three years... I am not jealous of other's wealth. I have my own. And I share it. And I donate it. Frequently to NARAL in fact.
Seriously.... Do you know what green disease is about?
May I ask why you "don't have to work"?
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
OMG!!!
That is so funny!!
OBVIOUSLY he doesn't know what green disease is about. There has not been one thing said by GTFLYGIRL that would imply she was suffering from:
"G-R-E-E-D"
Man. There are some incredibly judgmental people in this world.
She is the one judging by job title. I hope that she is a generous soul, like I hope everyone else is. I just wanna know why she cares about my occupation.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
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Seems you have said PLENTY to have people judge you on your words and opinions.
I looked at some profiles and it is rather interesting that a FEW of you pro lifers are male accountants....
Somebody needs to bring practicality to this board.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
For one thing, you are judging that she is wrong as if you know better or are better than her! Your answer is right in your question. You are judging whether or not she should get an abortion, as if she can't make that decision for herself. You have likened abortion to genocide, which implies that the women (and doctors) are Nazis. You have used the term "feminazi," implying that women who want the choice to have an abortion (and most women who have had abortions fall into this group) are Nazis. You have asserted that sexual assault statistics are blown out of proportion, which judges/minimizes at least the experience of those who have been sexually assaulted. And, most blatantly, you've said that abortion is because of "irresponsible people that resist to take responsibility for their own actions."
And, while it's true that you don't have to be a woman or a social worker to have an opinion, it's also true that some opinions are better-informed than others.
I apologize if my comments seemed preachy, judgmental, or holier than thou. One's concept of personal responsibility varies, but I think that people should be using contraception/protection if they aren't planning to have children (and also to avoid diseases etc) but also rethinking their lifestyle or birth control methods if they need to have repeated abortions. I know it sounds lame, but the ability to have children for some women is a gift and I feel it belittles those women who are unable to have children (at the moment, this includes a good friend of mine) when some women have multiple abortions due to the lives they lead. By lifestyle, I don't mean a lifestyle that is in keeping with Church doctrine. Personally, I just hold the view that excessively promiscuous behaviour is really problematic for everyone involved. I mean really I don't care if you're a guy or a girl who wants to sleep around until your partner tally is in triple figures, but I think in the long run it'll just hurt you. That's the lifestyle I mean. And the people I have known who had several abortions (and by this I mean 3 or more within a two year period) tend to prefer meaningless sex and excessive drinking and drug binges. Don't get me wrong, I am not some conformist puritan, I just think people need to grow up and stop fucking around. Being a potential young teenage mother is one thing, but I am talking about friends of mine who are pushing 30 and spent their lives living quite affluently. As a teacher, I see the effects of people who don't want to grow up and that's the type of lifestyle I'm refering to. In my humble opinion, some people tend to use abortions as a form of contraception and this is my issue because they are hurting themselves in the long run. Moreover, I want to point out that I feel that the majority of women who choose abortions do agonize over these decisions and certainly do live responsible lives. However, I am very bothered by a moral relativist approach that says that morality is up to the individual. It certainly is to a degree and I disagree with the legislation of morality but the decadence and Me-attitude of the West is disturbing.
Eh-I'm kinda going on a rant. To finish, I would just like to say that the whole pro-choice, anti-choice thing is simply a matter of semantics. And my problem with it is that when we label other movements as this or that, we are essentially just name-calling. It's bad enough that we have these arguments, but it's even worse when we attempt to tell our opponents what they actually believe (i.e. "It seems to me that pro-lifers believe that..."). One of the hallmarks of conflict resolution is to better understand the position of our opponent rather than to dictate what that position is in our own biased point of view.
Man. I lurk on this damn board for years and when I decide to finally chime in, I get into a debate that I'm usually on the other side of. I feel like a fifth columnist.
p.s. I want it to be clear that it may seem like I am singling out women when I speak of responsibility, I assure you this is only due to the fact it is their bodies we are talking about. I think that men by far are much worse when it comes to risky behaviour and poor lifestyle choices. Moreover, my views on what I deem to be a pathological lifestyle do not change the fact that I also believe any woman should be able to have an abortion if so she chooses even if she's already had fifty for that matter.
Exactly! And how can someone with little/no practical experience in this subject do that?
You can feel free to give me practical advice on how to spend my money, but your opinion about my personal life or reproductive decisions has much less validity.
I have really always wondered why men (who aren't specifically the other half of a woman who is considering an abortion) even comment on abortion in the general public? I understand having a passionate view on something, but isn't it a woman that makes the "choice" and has to live with it (no matter if she feels guilt or relief)?
Don't rant and rave at me, lovely board men. It is just a question and nothing more...
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
Point 1: It's a debate, we both think that the other is wrong.
Point 2: Life> Choice
Point 3: Look up the definition of genocide. If you believe the fetus is a life, then abortion is genocide.
Point 4: The term feminazis is a pet name given to feminists by consevatives. We don't actually believe that feminists are nazis.
Point 5: The sexual assualt statistics given were bloated. They were numbers used to provide backing to an agenda. My recognizing that those numbers were inaccurate doesn'y minimize or trivialize the experiences of those girls and woman. I feel sympathy for anyone that experiences such a horrible experience and wish harsh punishments on those who commit such crimes.
Point 6: I used the term irresponsible for people who weren't raped. I believe if you endulge yourself in irresponsible behaivor, you don't deserve an easy way out. Pregnancy is a possible consequence of sex. If you get pregnant there is a responsible way of dealing with that.
Point 7: Your assumption my of opinion of not being well informed is insulting.
With that, I wish you all a great evening. God bless you all. I will leave this board with respect for all thoughts conveyed tonight. I thought this was a fun debate. Hopefully, nobody's feelings were too hurt. With all seriousness, I will give a special prayer for victims of assualt tommorow at mass. And no I don't think I am a better person for that.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Instead of just saying you recognize bloated numbers, why don't you provide your own? Ones that are as equally credible as RAINN. Instead of claiming they're used to "support agendas" why the hell don't you show us some numbers? Ones that don't come out of your head? Because there's plenty of information, not tied in anyway to prolife or prochoice movements, that back up what I've already told you.
You are definitely 17.
Explain please.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
Read your reply.
I think it's more of a human thing.
My question comes from being a woman for 36 of those years, loosing two babies (beyond my control), doing IVF to finally have one, and running a pregnancy loss website for the last 10 years. Beyond that--I am pro-choice in the sense that I feel that it isn't my obligation or right to tell anyone else what to do. My "choice" might not be what others would choose, but it's not my "right" to inflict my opinions on others.
It was just a question, and while I can't tell if you are being a smart-ass, don't reply if you can't answer it!
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
You mean...that if someone feel strongly about something that they take it into themselves, even if they will never have to make that "choice"? I can understand that.
Thanks for giving a straight answer without assuming I had an agenda.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
Well, I think it comes with everyone having an opinion and wanting the opinion to matter and be heard. I do think it's sometimes ridiculous that guys sometimes yell more loudly than the women when it comes to these, especially the ones where their wants has major impact on women and hardly, if any, on them.
Thanks so much. The first line really hit a chord with me, and I do think that is true in many aspects.
The second part is exactly why I was asking in the first place, but you said it better than I could have. I just find it strange that so many who protest the loudest do it with hate ("murderers!", "whores!!", etc.)--although those aren't the norm. For the most part, I think that people are more calm about it. I do remember when the doctor in Pensacola was killed and there were actually pro-lifers who thought that was okay. WTF?
It's like the middle east--the debate shall (and does) go on.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
I am both pro life and pro choice. Is that possible do you think? I mean, abortion is not contraception I do not believe. We should be responsible before the act not after, you know?
But that said, we also can't put ourselves in others' shoes as to what they should do. If someone is having a lot of procedures, then they need to really get some professional help because that is fucked up for sure. But most women will get one or two in their lifetimes if at all, and that is usually because maybe they are young, or in more severe cases, they choose to abort because the fetus/baby is clearly not well.
I sat in church many times when the pro life people would come and I saw the people in my church filling up baby bottles with money or donating baby items, etc for the unwed mothers who chose to have the baby as opposed to aborting it, and I always thought, "gee, that's great, but does anyone actually follow up with these girls to support them after the baby is born?"
and by support, I mean emotionally not financially.
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
This issue, like many is not totally black and white. Like I said, I would not choose to have an abortion, but if my friend felt that she needed to, I would support her and not judge her.
I think we all have to go with what our hearts tell us, and that should be okay.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
moses-i! It's so good to see you back and with another thoughtful post!
First off, which side of the debate are you saying you're usually and currently on? Just checking.
I agree that excessively promiscuous behavior can be quite problematic and I certainly don’t promote it. I just hear so many people, even pro-choice people, characterize women who have abortions (especially multiple abortions) as irresponsible and that bothers me. I have known hundreds of women who have had abortions (over 1/3 of U.S. women will have one at some point) and I don’t believe any of them deserve to be judged. I think it’s critical to not only put oneself in the shoes of these women, but also to do an internal clarification of one’s own values and how they are formed. I’m not saying you are judging, just that I’m particularly sensitive to any hint of that attitude, so I apologize if I got defensive at all.
The majority of women having abortions were using birth control. Women try to be responsible, but birth control fails and many women just don’t have reliable access to it. I hear so many people say that women use abortion as birth control. In fact, a sexually active woman using abortion as birth control who wanted two children would have about 30 abortions by the age of 45. I’ve never seen a woman in the U.S. who has had that many abortions. But the U.S. has one of the highest unintended pregnancy rates in the developed world, and that is a problem for promiscuous and non-promiscuous, married and unmarried, and contracepting and non-contracepting women alike.
I feel very strongly that we could significantly reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and therefore the number of abortions if we had better access to birth control and better sex education. (We could also reduce the number of later-term abortions if we had better access to earlier abortions.) Unfortunately, I feel that the Catholic Church gets in the way of this progress.
Haha – now I guess I’m on a rant! Sorry.
Regarding your last point, though, it is not my intention to mischaracterize other people’s beliefs, but to clarify them (and I don’t find clarification in the term “pro-life”). So I’ll just ask you straight-up: are you pro-choice?
Thanks again for the thoughtful conversation.
I think everyone who is prochoice is prolife also. I've never met anyone who thought abortion was a good thing. Everyone wishes that abortions didn't have to happen, that every child that was conceived was given a life worth living. And it's always easier to throw some money at a problem to heal your conscience than to heal the problem itself.
God...you are so eloquent in this thread, I am going to go back and read your older posts.
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
It's only because at this point I'm tired. Don't get your hopes up!
How the hell did you know he was an accountant?
(Plus, I never actually conceded that a fetus is a person.)
This argument kind of reminds me of that Tool song that goes: Of course you don't believe they are actually Nazis, but that doesn't absolve you from likening them to Nazis. Once again, you have yet to back this up in any way. We could have just skipped to this one, I guess.
Night night.