We had a similar thing come to my college campus last year. They had huge billboards set up in the courtyard and the kids were "diguised" as college kids with backpacks, ect... They would just start talking to us to see how we felt then start in on their robot bullshit. It was really offensive and I think it was the wrong way to stand up for their cause.
Are you referring to the Justice for All exhibit? Sounds like it. The worst part about them are the dishonest tactics they use to try to convert people to their side. Not only do they propagate blatently false information on college campuses, but they do things like pose as students to give the impression that your classmates agree with them and to waste the time of those disseminating accurate info so others can't get their hands on it. If they actually had a good argument, they should feel good about presenting it in a straightforward manner.
No matter what you spin, abortion is a dispicable, degrading, deadly act. If you want to have sex, suffer the consequences and give the baby up for adoption. I love the fake argument that women will die by illegal abortions. Why do women need such a disgusting choice? Is that all they can fight for? Most of the the feminazis hate men so bad they don't have sex anyways, so why are they fighting it? This is not about choice; it's about death.
Wow. Women who have sex should be made to suffer? Illegal abortions don't kill women? Feminists are akin to Nazis, badly hate men, and don't have sex?
You're a teacher, right? Is this the kind of misinformation, hatred, and close-mindednenss you bring to your classroom? Just the thought of someone with this attitude teaching my future children makes me want to abort them for their own protection.
How can you rock out and not be political? Why is not OK to comment on issues on a rock band's forum? And if you don't like the message on your band leader's arm, well, don't like it, whatever. Rock music is about being free, about expressing yourself, whether it is shaking your ass at the show or bobbing your head in your car stuck in traffic on the way out of the parking lot. Say what you think, whenever you want, but be who you are all the time.
We had a similar thing come to my college campus last year. They had huge billboards set up in the courtyard and the kids were "diguised" as college kids with backpacks, ect... They would just start talking to us to see how we felt then start in on their robot bullshit. It was really offensive and I think it was the wrong way to stand up for their cause.
I've been seeing people like this all over. They are completely brainwashed talking about the new messiah and when you ask them why they are saying what they say they can't really think of anything to back it up. It's so weird.
Oh, its not religious people - its Obama supporters.
I've been seeing people like this all over. They are completely brainwashed talking about the new messiah and when you ask them why they are saying what they say they can't really think of anything to back it up. It's so weird.
Oh, its not religious people - its Obama supporters.
Ok, Ok, wait a minute, you're saying non-religious "Obama supporters" are walking around like zombies talking about a new messiah and repeating an anti-choice message? Sorry I have a hard time buying that.
Ok, Ok, wait a minute, you're saying non-religious "Obama supporters" are walking around like zombies talking about a new messiah and repeating an anti-choice message? Sorry I have a hard time buying that.
I never said they were spouting an anti-abortion message, I was just saying they walk around town spouting how we all need to convert to the new messiah. When I ask them what this new messiah has done no one can answer it except to say its change I can believe in.
I'm an Obama-atheist, I suppose...
i just thought it mirrored what you guys were saying about the zombie campus christians quite a bit... that's all.
Wow. Women who have sex should be made to suffer? Illegal abortions don't kill women? Feminists are akin to Nazis, badly hate men, and don't have sex?
You're a teacher, right? Is this the kind of misinformation, hatred, and close-mindednenss you bring to your classroom? Just the thought of someone with this attitude teaching my future children makes me want to abort them for their own protection.
you are so right. Thank you for pointing it out so well.
if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. If you are concerned about children, adopt one. In particular a child over 5 in the foster care system who has been abused by parents who can't or won't parent him or her. Then wait til that kid is 18. And pay for college. Then talk to me.
Just a FYI
Last Oct. I'm walking through Philly past the liberty bell and there are these a-holes all over the place with giant color posters of dead babies! Mangled, bodiless.
These were all brain washed "Christian" kids under 21!
I went up to one girl -I won't repeat what I said-she wouldn't look at me. She kept saying the same thing over and over to whatever I said. Like a programmed robot on a mission.
hmmmmm...
If abortion had been legalized when I was conceived, I wouldn't be here now.
Having stated that fact, I am very very pro-choice. Being raised by a parent who never wanted you and only provided for you out of obligation and not love is no way to spend a childhood. You are an inconvenience. The emotional abuse and guilt heaped upon children in this position is traumatizing.
Maybe my soul would have gotten another chance to come into the world with a family that wanted me. Or if not, maybe I would have spent the last 4 decades in heaven and never have known the pain of this life. I don't know - just speculating.
you are so right. Thank you for pointing it out so well.
if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. If you are concerned about children, adopt one. In particular a child over 5 in the foster care system who has been abused by parents who can't or won't parent him or her. Then wait til that kid is 18. And pay for college. Then talk to me.[ill take you up on that bet! give me your phone number and ill give you a call in 12 years!!! do u know of any 5 year olds that need adopted. im a gun toting red neck so if i think the kid is to bad ill just shoot his or her little punk ass. or send them to war! i love them too!!
Pro life is a misnomer. It should be called the "Control Women's Bodies (and women) Movement". Next they will require burkas. Then we will have to worship at their churches.
Pro life is a misnomer. It should be called the "Control Women's Bodies (and women) Movement". Next they will require burkas. Then we will have to worship at their churches.
I think Pro-life is not a misnomer if you believe a baby is a human being while it is in the womb.
Mary Jane
Mary Jane
~~~~~~
09/04/2000 Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, MD
07/01/2003 Nissan Pavilion Stone Ridge, Bristow, VA
06/22/2008 Verizon Center, Washington, D.C.
10/27/2013 Baltimore Arena (1st Mariner), Baltimore, MD
I think Pro-life is not a misnomer if you believe a baby is a human being while it is in the womb.
Mary Jane
But what if you believe a baby is a human being while in the womb but still believe abortion should not be illegal - that women should have a choice (even if you feel strongly that they should "choose life")?
That makes you pro-choice, does it not?
I would say that "pro-life" is a misnomer because it doesn't address the real issue of the debate, which is whether a woman should have a choice regardless of someone else's opinion. I think "anti-choice" is a more appropriate name for a movement that is trying to set itself up in opposition to the pro-choice movement.
I tried to avoid being pulled into this highly contentious debate, but it just couldn't be helped.
Before getting onto the topic of abortion, I want to address the comment that the Catholic Church is the "biggest scam". Let me preface my opinion by stating that I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, and am now a Catholic high school teacher in Canada. Throughout this entire time I have struggled a great deal with faith and my relationship with God. I have looked into other faiths and religions and turned away from Catholicism. I say this so that you don't assume I am brain-washed and blindly follow the Pope's every word.
So, I will be the first to point out the flaws of the Catholic Church (in fact most of the time I am in fact the very liberal, socialist proponent of change within the Church that argues with colleagues and my super conservative father). The Church has been either directly involved in or complicit in the Crusades/ Spanish Inquisition, the slavery trade, colonialism, the destruction of various indigeonous cultures. And who could forget the recent scandal of child abuse (albeit please remember that this represents a small minority of Catholic priests). However, the Catholc Church seems to always be painted with broad strokes by most atheists. The biggest scam was also the first institution to offer social security, health care and education and for the most part continues to do so. Priests have always been fierce opponents of oppressive regimes throughout history and especially in the 20th Century. Catholic priests sacrificed their lives during the Second World War. Liberation theologists in South America have fought tooth an nail against regimes that exploit the poor. And the Catholic Church was instrumental in the dismantling of communism in Eastern Europe. In our time, we have been blessed with Mother Teresa, Oscar Romero, Jean Vanier and Desmond Tutu (who is not a Catholic, but an Anglican cleric). This is not to downplay the efforts of other religious organizations and groups such as Buddhists and Hindus. I am not saying that the Catholic Church is innocent but many North American critics of the church seem to think that the Catholic Church is this giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule.
Quite frankly I am sick and tired of the Catholic Church being constantly maligned. Moreover, it is often lumped together with the American Christian Right, which has its roots largle in Christian Fundamentalism. Let's face it, it's not cool to be Christian (or to be of any monotheistic faith for that matter) but I'd imagine that most of the people on this board who are criticizing Catholicism/Christianity probably think that Buddhism is a very noble faith and that the Dalai Lama is a very forward thinking individual. Well, my response to this is provided by a video from a great series by Jon Safron:
Safron is a very humourous and insightful individual. I highly recommend the entire series (it even points out the many flaws and foibles of Christianity as well). Finally on the subject of the Catholic Church, I am going to say something that I am sure will piss off a lot of people. I find it very strange that the very same people who criticize the Catholic Church (and religion in general) will blindly follow the Church of Eddie Vedder. Pretty much everything Eddie Vedder does is just beyond repute for many fans. The Catholic Church is a big scam but when Pearl Jam does a few benefit concerts, they are suddenly heroes. I hate to break it to you but Eddie Vedder is a rock star. He doesn't make music to save the world or help people (at least this is not his primary motive). Although he may not be as extravagant as his peers, he still lives a much more luxurious life than anyone on this message board. Sure he cares about this and that, but guess what, so do pretty much every faith organization and no matter your politics, you cannot deny that they do some good. At the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being. So just cut it some slack.
Now abortion. My opinion on abortion is that I was not put on this earth to judge anyone, we are given free will and if women want to exercise their right and free will, so be it. Only God and that woman knows what is in her heart and so if what she has done is "wrong", she may have to answer for it. But that does not make abortion wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I have never been in the position of having to work through this very torturous decision. However, I have known women who have had several abortions and seem to see it as no different than a simple check up at the doctor's office. This type of callous lack of responsibility, in my humble opinion, is fully unjustified. Being raped, or just making a mistake at an early age are one thing, but living a lifestyle that results in countless unwanted pregnancies is definitely an issue, especially when so many women agonize over the inability to have children of their own.
I'm sorry for the length of this reply. I do want you to know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm sure that some people will have problems with my statements, but please do not assume I am just an apologist for the Catholic Church, because nothing could be further from the truth.
I think "anti-choice" is a more appropriate name for a movement that is trying to set itself up in opposition to the pro-choice movement.
This is no better than the pro-lifer's use of the label "pro-abortion" for the pro-choicers. No one is an advocate of the death of children. Pro-lifers do consider themselves pro-choice, but they feel that the unborn child has no choice in these matters. Again, just playing devil's advocate.
Are you referring to the Justice for All exhibit? Sounds like it. The worst part about them are the dishonest tactics they use to try to convert people to their side. Not only do they propagate blatently false information on college campuses, but they do things like pose as students to give the impression that your classmates agree with them and to waste the time of those disseminating accurate info so others can't get their hands on it. If they actually had a good argument, they should feel good about presenting it in a straightforward manner.
Yeah thats what it was, Justice for All, and that is exactly what they did. One funny part was how their stupid billboards were absolutely huge and could be seen from across campus but when you walk up to the exhibit they had one little sign that said, "Warning, graphic images ahead."
Back to the original poster. What kind of console are you using?
This a little corporate jobby so we just have a rack-mounted Midas Venice. But we have a pair of Midas Veronas, Yamaha M7CL and LS9, and some old dinosaur Crest VX and LMX.
I tried to avoid being pulled into this highly contentious debate, but it just couldn't be helped.
Welcome to the board! I think it's great that you couldn't help but be pulled into such an (in my opinion) important debate. I certainly appreciate your thoughtful response.
Before getting onto the topic of abortion, I want to address the comment that the Catholic Church is the "biggest scam"….
However, the Catholc Church seems to always be painted with broad strokes by most atheist…
I am not saying that the Catholic Church is innocent but many North American critics of the church seem to think that the Catholic Church is this giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule….
Quite frankly I am sick and tired of the Catholic Church being constantly maligned. Moreover, it is often lumped together with the American Christian Right, which has its roots largle in Christian Fundamentalism….
At the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being. So just cut it some slack.
I agree that the Catholic Church (and Christianity in general) are often painted with broad strokes. As you said, although the Church is flawed, it has been responsible for many good things.
That being said, it seems to me like it kind of sets itself up in a few key ways:
1. People liken it to a “giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule” because of its never-ending attempt to impose its values on others. This is the crux of the whole pro-choice argument. It’s fine if the Church/Pope believes I’m going to hell if I have an abortion, but let that be (as you stated below) between me and God. Don’t try to enact laws that force me to behave according to the Church’s doctrine.
2. The Catholic Church is lumped together with the American Christian Right, at least when it comes to reproductive issues, because they fight for the same ideal: That people (especially women) should have sex only within the context of marriage and for the sole purpose of procreation. And in support of this, they oppose not only abortion, but also contraception, which many find to be short-sighted, impractical, or even hypocritical.
3. While I agree with you that the “Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being” and should be cut some slack, I think people have a problem with this because the Church/Pope a) doesn’t present itself so as to acknowledge its own humanity or flaws, and b) doesn’t seem to afford the same consideration to others. Where is the slack for the women who have abortions? (Maybe this is where the discussion becomes about whether the Church is accurately represented by individuals who choose to judge in its name.)
Now abortion. My opinion on abortion is that I was not put on this earth to judge anyone, we are given free will and if women want to exercise their right and free will, so be it. Only God and that woman knows what is in her heart and so if what she has done is "wrong", she may have to answer for it. But that does not make abortion wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I have never been in the position of having to work through this very torturous decision.
I think this is the right attitude. If everyone had this attitude, the whole debate would go away. Unfortunately, I don’t hear this from many people who identify as “pro-life” (not that you identify yourself that way).
However, I have known women who have had several abortions and seem to see it as no different than a simple check up at the doctor's office. This type of callous lack of responsibility, in my humble opinion, is fully unjustified. Being raped, or just making a mistake at an early age are one thing, but living a lifestyle that results in countless unwanted pregnancies is definitely an issue, especially when so many women agonize over the inability to have children of their own.
Now this is more like what I’m used to hearing. It’s interesting to me because it seems to take a different tone (judgment-wise) than the previous section of your post, and the issue of multiple abortions seems to be the turning point. I guess everyone has opinions and there’s a fine line between having an opinion and being judgmental, so I’m not saying you’ve crossed that line.
But let me ask you this: At what number of abortions does your sentiment turn? When does it become “callous lack of responsibility”? Is it the “callous” attitude of these women that bothers you or the “lack of responsibility” in their actions? How do you really know how they feel about it? In what way should they present themselves to you to make their attitudes/actions less unjustified? How do you know they have been so irresponsible? Are you intimately familiar with the circumstances under which they became pregnant? What if they used birth control? Would that make their decisions less unjustified? What about making a mistake at an early age? Why is that more justified than making a mistake at a later age? At what age is the turning point? Exactly which kind of lifestyle is it that “results in countless unwanted pregnancies”? Is that the lifestyle where you follow the Catholic doctrine to not use birth control? (Does that count as a “lack of responsibility”?) Is it the lifestyle where you want to use birth control but can’t afford it? Is it the lifestyle where you have not been educated about how to prevent pregnancy? Is it the lifestyle where you are within a culture or marriage that does not afford you the choice of whether or not to have sex or use birth control? Is it the lifestyle where the birth control you use fails? And would this lifestyle be more acceptable if fewer women were to “agonize over the inability to have children of their own”? Why? And is it all the unwanted pregnancies with which you take issue, or just the decision to terminate them? I’m not suggesting I know your answers; just thought it was something to think about.
Why start a thread about such a divisive political issue then? Are you that starved for attention?
Actually I am that starved for attention. That's EXACTLY why I posted on this board. So that everyone can worship my username and be really impressed that someone could post something THIS controversial while stating out of the discussion completely! My original post made no mention of my opinion because who really cares anyway?
Wow. This is the first time on this board that I've ever gotten flustered from a post and the first time I've ever responded with hostilit! It's comments like that, that give the Synergy Board a bad name. Why even stir shit up? I hope using that bandwidth was worth it!
Phew! Anyway, if someone tells me how to move the thread... I will.
it figures that this would be my first post in here...i have been - what do you call it - lurking(?) for some time but needed to reply...
i am a labor and delivery nurse in center city philadelphia and after working here i understand why some people deserve a choice on whether or not to carry their child to term...like people who are addicted to drugs and never want their child to have to experience withdrawal like they do, and people who are told that their child will never survive 1 hour outside of the womb due to a genetic condition, and the 14 year old girl that comes in because she was raped but her mother wouldn't let her get an abortion so she needs to live with that experience for the rest of her life.
it is not a clear-cut issue...and people often think that abortions are for irresponsible women who "can't keep their legs shut"...that makes me so infuriated. half of the babies i deliver every day are coming into a shitty world that has no place for them....a world where needles sit next to their makeshift crib, or where a high school textbook is on their mom's lap instead of them. or worse, where IVs and catheters invade their entire bodies because they were never meant to survive. that's the world i see...not a drunk college student who makes a mistake on thirsty thursday.
8.28.98//10.1.04//10.3.05//5.27.06//6.11.08//6.19.08//6.20.08//6.24.08//6.25.08//6.30.08
what do you call people like me...a lurker? yeah, i never post.
This is no better than the pro-lifer's use of the label "pro-abortion" for the pro-choicers. No one is an advocate of the death of children. Pro-lifers do consider themselves pro-choice, but they feel that the unborn child has no choice in these matters. Again, just playing devil's advocate.
I appreciate your recognization that people aren't really pro-abortion, but that's why I disagree with your point. People really are anti-choice, and the debate isn't about whether or not people should have abortions, it's about whether people should be ALLOWED to have abortions. Only some pro-lifers consider themselves pro-choice; if they all did, we wouldn't need to have this conversation. But the pro-choice movement is in direct response to those who seek to BAN abortion - those who are anti-choice - not those who say, "We don't think you should have an abortion but we're not going to try to stop you." The pro-choice movement doesn't tell people what they should do (which is why they're not pro-abortion); the anti-choice movement does. Those who call themselves pro-life must still decide which camp they align themselves with on the choice issue. As long as someone's not imposing their values on others, it's not all that important (to said others) whether they're pro-life or not.
Also, I would suggest that it's use of the term "pro-life" that opens this debate up to so many arguments about war, the death penalty, vegetarianism, etc.
it figures that this would be my first post in here...i have been - what do you call it - lurking(?) for some time but needed to reply...
i am a labor and delivery nurse in center city philadelphia and after working here i understand why some people deserve a choice on whether or not to carry their child to term...like people who are addicted to drugs and never want their child to have to experience withdrawal like they do, and people who are told that their child will never survive 1 hour outside of the womb due to a genetic condition, and the 14 year old girl that comes in because she was raped but her mother wouldn't let her get an abortion so she needs to live with that experience for the rest of her life.
it is not a clear-cut issue...and people often think that abortions are for irresponsible women who "can't keep their legs shut"...that makes me so infuriated. half of the babies i deliver every day are coming into a shitty world that has no place for them....a world where needles sit next to their makeshift crib, or where a high school textbook is on their mom's lap instead of them. or worse, where IVs and catheters invade their entire bodies because they were never meant to survive. that's the world i see...not a drunk college student who makes a mistake on thirsty thursday.
Thanks for that insight, and for reminding us that people's lives are too difficult and complicated for it to be our place to judge them.
Personally, I place a little more value on the perspectives of those who have first-hand knowledge of this (or any) subject. (Now I'll probably get shit for saying that! :eek: )
I think your user name is quite apropos, by the way.
Comments
Are you referring to the Justice for All exhibit? Sounds like it. The worst part about them are the dishonest tactics they use to try to convert people to their side. Not only do they propagate blatently false information on college campuses, but they do things like pose as students to give the impression that your classmates agree with them and to waste the time of those disseminating accurate info so others can't get their hands on it. If they actually had a good argument, they should feel good about presenting it in a straightforward manner.
Wow. Women who have sex should be made to suffer? Illegal abortions don't kill women? Feminists are akin to Nazis, badly hate men, and don't have sex?
You're a teacher, right? Is this the kind of misinformation, hatred, and close-mindednenss you bring to your classroom? Just the thought of someone with this attitude teaching my future children makes me want to abort them for their own protection.
Thankfully, a bunch of guys on a bench think it's none of your business.
Oh, its not religious people - its Obama supporters.
Ok, Ok, wait a minute, you're saying non-religious "Obama supporters" are walking around like zombies talking about a new messiah and repeating an anti-choice message? Sorry I have a hard time buying that.
But I got this post and laughed out loud!
Take care,
http://www.youtube.com/user/kcherub#p/a/u/0/N-UQprRqSwo
I'm an Obama-atheist, I suppose...
i just thought it mirrored what you guys were saying about the zombie campus christians quite a bit... that's all.
you are so right. Thank you for pointing it out so well.
if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one. If you are concerned about children, adopt one. In particular a child over 5 in the foster care system who has been abused by parents who can't or won't parent him or her. Then wait til that kid is 18. And pay for college. Then talk to me.
Look! I found their manual:
https://secure.rtl.org/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12&products_id=88&zenid=9babbc0bc10d6647cc880b7bf466cf1f
Having stated that fact, I am very very pro-choice. Being raised by a parent who never wanted you and only provided for you out of obligation and not love is no way to spend a childhood. You are an inconvenience. The emotional abuse and guilt heaped upon children in this position is traumatizing.
Maybe my soul would have gotten another chance to come into the world with a family that wanted me. Or if not, maybe I would have spent the last 4 decades in heaven and never have known the pain of this life. I don't know - just speculating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xPkYFH4imw
I think Pro-life is not a misnomer if you believe a baby is a human being while it is in the womb.
Mary Jane
~~~~~~
09/04/2000 Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, MD
07/01/2003 Nissan Pavilion Stone Ridge, Bristow, VA
06/22/2008 Verizon Center, Washington, D.C.
10/27/2013 Baltimore Arena (1st Mariner), Baltimore, MD
But what if you believe a baby is a human being while in the womb but still believe abortion should not be illegal - that women should have a choice (even if you feel strongly that they should "choose life")?
That makes you pro-choice, does it not?
I would say that "pro-life" is a misnomer because it doesn't address the real issue of the debate, which is whether a woman should have a choice regardless of someone else's opinion. I think "anti-choice" is a more appropriate name for a movement that is trying to set itself up in opposition to the pro-choice movement.
Wow.....
Before getting onto the topic of abortion, I want to address the comment that the Catholic Church is the "biggest scam". Let me preface my opinion by stating that I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, and am now a Catholic high school teacher in Canada. Throughout this entire time I have struggled a great deal with faith and my relationship with God. I have looked into other faiths and religions and turned away from Catholicism. I say this so that you don't assume I am brain-washed and blindly follow the Pope's every word.
So, I will be the first to point out the flaws of the Catholic Church (in fact most of the time I am in fact the very liberal, socialist proponent of change within the Church that argues with colleagues and my super conservative father). The Church has been either directly involved in or complicit in the Crusades/ Spanish Inquisition, the slavery trade, colonialism, the destruction of various indigeonous cultures. And who could forget the recent scandal of child abuse (albeit please remember that this represents a small minority of Catholic priests). However, the Catholc Church seems to always be painted with broad strokes by most atheists. The biggest scam was also the first institution to offer social security, health care and education and for the most part continues to do so. Priests have always been fierce opponents of oppressive regimes throughout history and especially in the 20th Century. Catholic priests sacrificed their lives during the Second World War. Liberation theologists in South America have fought tooth an nail against regimes that exploit the poor. And the Catholic Church was instrumental in the dismantling of communism in Eastern Europe. In our time, we have been blessed with Mother Teresa, Oscar Romero, Jean Vanier and Desmond Tutu (who is not a Catholic, but an Anglican cleric). This is not to downplay the efforts of other religious organizations and groups such as Buddhists and Hindus. I am not saying that the Catholic Church is innocent but many North American critics of the church seem to think that the Catholic Church is this giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule.
Quite frankly I am sick and tired of the Catholic Church being constantly maligned. Moreover, it is often lumped together with the American Christian Right, which has its roots largle in Christian Fundamentalism. Let's face it, it's not cool to be Christian (or to be of any monotheistic faith for that matter) but I'd imagine that most of the people on this board who are criticizing Catholicism/Christianity probably think that Buddhism is a very noble faith and that the Dalai Lama is a very forward thinking individual. Well, my response to this is provided by a video from a great series by Jon Safron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igIBSeaJ9YI
Safron is a very humourous and insightful individual. I highly recommend the entire series (it even points out the many flaws and foibles of Christianity as well). Finally on the subject of the Catholic Church, I am going to say something that I am sure will piss off a lot of people. I find it very strange that the very same people who criticize the Catholic Church (and religion in general) will blindly follow the Church of Eddie Vedder. Pretty much everything Eddie Vedder does is just beyond repute for many fans. The Catholic Church is a big scam but when Pearl Jam does a few benefit concerts, they are suddenly heroes. I hate to break it to you but Eddie Vedder is a rock star. He doesn't make music to save the world or help people (at least this is not his primary motive). Although he may not be as extravagant as his peers, he still lives a much more luxurious life than anyone on this message board. Sure he cares about this and that, but guess what, so do pretty much every faith organization and no matter your politics, you cannot deny that they do some good. At the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being. So just cut it some slack.
Now abortion. My opinion on abortion is that I was not put on this earth to judge anyone, we are given free will and if women want to exercise their right and free will, so be it. Only God and that woman knows what is in her heart and so if what she has done is "wrong", she may have to answer for it. But that does not make abortion wrong. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I have never been in the position of having to work through this very torturous decision. However, I have known women who have had several abortions and seem to see it as no different than a simple check up at the doctor's office. This type of callous lack of responsibility, in my humble opinion, is fully unjustified. Being raped, or just making a mistake at an early age are one thing, but living a lifestyle that results in countless unwanted pregnancies is definitely an issue, especially when so many women agonize over the inability to have children of their own.
I'm sorry for the length of this reply. I do want you to know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm sure that some people will have problems with my statements, but please do not assume I am just an apologist for the Catholic Church, because nothing could be further from the truth.
"It's a male myth about feminists that we hate sex. It can be a natural, zesty enterprise."
Maude Lebowski
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
This is no better than the pro-lifer's use of the label "pro-abortion" for the pro-choicers. No one is an advocate of the death of children. Pro-lifers do consider themselves pro-choice, but they feel that the unborn child has no choice in these matters. Again, just playing devil's advocate.
Why start a thread about such a divisive political issue then? Are you that starved for attention?
Yeah thats what it was, Justice for All, and that is exactly what they did. One funny part was how their stupid billboards were absolutely huge and could be seen from across campus but when you walk up to the exhibit they had one little sign that said, "Warning, graphic images ahead."
This a little corporate jobby so we just have a rack-mounted Midas Venice. But we have a pair of Midas Veronas, Yamaha M7CL and LS9, and some old dinosaur Crest VX and LMX.
Welcome to the board! I think it's great that you couldn't help but be pulled into such an (in my opinion) important debate.
I agree that the Catholic Church (and Christianity in general) are often painted with broad strokes. As you said, although the Church is flawed, it has been responsible for many good things.
That being said, it seems to me like it kind of sets itself up in a few key ways:
1. People liken it to a “giant evil multinational corporation that wants to take over the world and impose white Christian rule” because of its never-ending attempt to impose its values on others. This is the crux of the whole pro-choice argument. It’s fine if the Church/Pope believes I’m going to hell if I have an abortion, but let that be (as you stated below) between me and God. Don’t try to enact laws that force me to behave according to the Church’s doctrine.
2. The Catholic Church is lumped together with the American Christian Right, at least when it comes to reproductive issues, because they fight for the same ideal: That people (especially women) should have sex only within the context of marriage and for the sole purpose of procreation. And in support of this, they oppose not only abortion, but also contraception, which many find to be short-sighted, impractical, or even hypocritical.
3. While I agree with you that the “Church is just a human institution, just as flawed as any human being” and should be cut some slack, I think people have a problem with this because the Church/Pope a) doesn’t present itself so as to acknowledge its own humanity or flaws, and b) doesn’t seem to afford the same consideration to others. Where is the slack for the women who have abortions? (Maybe this is where the discussion becomes about whether the Church is accurately represented by individuals who choose to judge in its name.)
I think this is the right attitude. If everyone had this attitude, the whole debate would go away. Unfortunately, I don’t hear this from many people who identify as “pro-life” (not that you identify yourself that way).
Now this is more like what I’m used to hearing. It’s interesting to me because it seems to take a different tone (judgment-wise) than the previous section of your post, and the issue of multiple abortions seems to be the turning point. I guess everyone has opinions and there’s a fine line between having an opinion and being judgmental, so I’m not saying you’ve crossed that line.
But let me ask you this: At what number of abortions does your sentiment turn? When does it become “callous lack of responsibility”? Is it the “callous” attitude of these women that bothers you or the “lack of responsibility” in their actions? How do you really know how they feel about it? In what way should they present themselves to you to make their attitudes/actions less unjustified? How do you know they have been so irresponsible? Are you intimately familiar with the circumstances under which they became pregnant? What if they used birth control? Would that make their decisions less unjustified? What about making a mistake at an early age? Why is that more justified than making a mistake at a later age? At what age is the turning point? Exactly which kind of lifestyle is it that “results in countless unwanted pregnancies”? Is that the lifestyle where you follow the Catholic doctrine to not use birth control? (Does that count as a “lack of responsibility”?) Is it the lifestyle where you want to use birth control but can’t afford it? Is it the lifestyle where you have not been educated about how to prevent pregnancy? Is it the lifestyle where you are within a culture or marriage that does not afford you the choice of whether or not to have sex or use birth control? Is it the lifestyle where the birth control you use fails? And would this lifestyle be more acceptable if fewer women were to “agonize over the inability to have children of their own”? Why? And is it all the unwanted pregnancies with which you take issue, or just the decision to terminate them? I’m not suggesting I know your answers; just thought it was something to think about.
Actually I am that starved for attention. That's EXACTLY why I posted on this board. So that everyone can worship my username and be really impressed that someone could post something THIS controversial while stating out of the discussion completely! My original post made no mention of my opinion because who really cares anyway?
Wow. This is the first time on this board that I've ever gotten flustered from a post and the first time I've ever responded with hostilit! It's comments like that, that give the Synergy Board a bad name. Why even stir shit up? I hope using that bandwidth was worth it!
Phew! Anyway, if someone tells me how to move the thread... I will.
i am a labor and delivery nurse in center city philadelphia and after working here i understand why some people deserve a choice on whether or not to carry their child to term...like people who are addicted to drugs and never want their child to have to experience withdrawal like they do, and people who are told that their child will never survive 1 hour outside of the womb due to a genetic condition, and the 14 year old girl that comes in because she was raped but her mother wouldn't let her get an abortion so she needs to live with that experience for the rest of her life.
it is not a clear-cut issue...and people often think that abortions are for irresponsible women who "can't keep their legs shut"...that makes me so infuriated. half of the babies i deliver every day are coming into a shitty world that has no place for them....a world where needles sit next to their makeshift crib, or where a high school textbook is on their mom's lap instead of them. or worse, where IVs and catheters invade their entire bodies because they were never meant to survive. that's the world i see...not a drunk college student who makes a mistake on thirsty thursday.
what do you call people like me...a lurker? yeah, i never post.
I appreciate your recognization that people aren't really pro-abortion, but that's why I disagree with your point. People really are anti-choice, and the debate isn't about whether or not people should have abortions, it's about whether people should be ALLOWED to have abortions. Only some pro-lifers consider themselves pro-choice; if they all did, we wouldn't need to have this conversation. But the pro-choice movement is in direct response to those who seek to BAN abortion - those who are anti-choice - not those who say, "We don't think you should have an abortion but we're not going to try to stop you." The pro-choice movement doesn't tell people what they should do (which is why they're not pro-abortion); the anti-choice movement does. Those who call themselves pro-life must still decide which camp they align themselves with on the choice issue. As long as someone's not imposing their values on others, it's not all that important (to said others) whether they're pro-life or not.
Also, I would suggest that it's use of the term "pro-life" that opens this debate up to so many arguments about war, the death penalty, vegetarianism, etc.
Thanks for that insight, and for reminding us that people's lives are too difficult and complicated for it to be our place to judge them.
Personally, I place a little more value on the perspectives of those who have first-hand knowledge of this (or any) subject. (Now I'll probably get shit for saying that! :eek: )
I think your user name is quite apropos, by the way.
No! Don't do it! Look at all the new people you're bringing out!