What are some scenarios? I can see where abortion would be the best for the mother, but I'm having trouble seeing it as best for the baby.
First of all, thanks for the direct, thoughtful, insult-free question!
Here are the first scenarios that pop into my head that might be in the best interest of the unborn child. (I say might because, unless it's my child or my patient, I don't think it's my place to judge.)
1. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that will be fatal, but extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that would not be fatal, but would be extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with diseases such as AIDS or Down Syndrome.
3. Babies who, if born, would have to suffer through drug withdrawal.
These are only a few of the ways some babies, if born, suffer physically. Of course there are many other ways in which babies/children/people who are born often suffer emotionally. I was going to list some, but my understaning of your perspective is that we can't ever know that a child will suffer emotionally, so emotional suffering shouldn't factor in. Is that right?
If so, should the risk of emotional suffering factor in? I mean, in this comparison between the benefit of being born versus the benefit of not being born, should we consider whether a child has a 25% chance of emotional suffering versus a 90% chance and weigh that accordingly, or should it always weigh in at 0%?
Also, how do you measure the benefit of being born?
Also, I understand how people believe that babies should not be aborted simply for the benefit of the mother. But should we consider the benefit of abortion to anyone else like, for instance, other babies? If having Baby B would make Baby A suffer, is that still ALWAYS the right choice - period?
First of all, thanks for the direct, thoughtful, insult-free question!
Here are the first scenarios that pop into my head that might be in the best interest of the unborn child. (I say might because, unless it's my child or my patient, I don't think it's my place to judge.)
1. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that will be fatal, but extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that would not be fatal, but would be extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with diseases such as AIDS or Down Syndrome.
3. Babies who, if born, would have to suffer through drug withdrawal.
Also, how do you measure the benefit of being born?
I am with you 100% on this one.....
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
First of all, thanks for the direct, thoughtful, insult-free question!
Here are the first scenarios that pop into my head that might be in the best interest of the unborn child. (I say might because, unless it's my child or my patient, I don't think it's my place to judge.)
1. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that will be fatal, but extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that would not be fatal, but would be extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with diseases such as AIDS or Down Syndrome.
3. Babies who, if born, would have to suffer through drug withdrawal.
I do agree with most [EDIT: maybe not most, but a couple] of these points (which is why I'm neither really pro-life or pro-choice) but not the down syndrome one at all. I volunteer helping kids with down syndrome and they're some of the happiest people I've ever met, loving life for what it is. I can't imagine them not getting to experience life because someone thought they wouldn't want to.
a) I didn't say anything about killing someone to avoid the possibility of future abuse. I think you're thinking of a conversation you're having with someone else.
b) You still haven't tried to answer my question. I'm starting to think you really don't have an answer. I am asking you to defend your statement, not making a statement of my own. So how come you just keep trying to insult my statement when I haven't even made one? Can you answer my question or not?
c) Even in trying to dispute my non-statement, you haven't even backed up your dispute - just been insulting. Don't be offended, but I have to ask: What is your age?
a) What if they do want to be shot? Or what if they've committed a crime and someone else wants them to be shot?
b) What should we do if they're pregnant and don't want to have a baby? Should we force them to have a baby?
c) Most importantly: You make that analogy as if to say that unborn babies want to be born. How do you know this?
Listen, I've answered your question, I don't believe there is any reason to kill a baby...the only time where I believe abortion to be a decision for a mother to make is if the life of the mother is in danger due to the pregnancy/birth...otherwise there is no situation where I believe the life of the child should be taken. I'm not really what you are trying to get me to say, perhaps we have a misunderstanding.
The reason I'm insulting your statement is because everytime I have read it the way I interpret it, it seems to be a really dumb statement. Just telling you what I read and how I see it.
My age? C'mon now don't get silly. I'm plenty old enough...have a child of my own. I wasn't trying to attack you personally, just the 1 statement you made.
How do I know unborn babies want to be born? How the hell do you answer that? It's a natural process that, in the case of an abortion, requires an unatural event to end...so, my assumption is that the baby should be born if it takes an unnatural event to stop it.
Okay, I barely even have an opinion on abortion, I hate talking about it. I didn't want to get involved in this thread...
But seriously? The fact is that you can't undo killing someone. Okay, sure, I see where you're coming from, that maybe unborn babies don't want to be born. But maybe they do? It's a double standard.
And I don't mean to sound morbid here, I think suicide is the worst thing ever, but if they don't want to live, can't they take their own lives? We shouldn't decide for them.
Well, for one thing, it's debatable whether preventing someone from being born is the same as killing them. But, for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:
1. The whole "does the baby want to be born or not?" question assumes that a fetus or embryo has free will to even have a desire one way or the other. Given especially that nearly 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, I think it's really a BIG stretch to say that they do. And yet people frequently imply that abortion kills babies against their will. Mustn't they first prove that a fetus has a free will before they can say it's even possible for us to go againt it?
2. Even if a fetus had a free will, now it must be shown that the will of the fetus is to be born before abortions can be said to violate that will. This hasn't and can't be shown. I understand your point that we also can't show that a fetus wants to not be born, and I agree. But I'm not trying to say a fetus necessarily wants to not be born like others are saying it necessarily wants to be born. My whole point is that you (or whoever) don't know any more than I do, so that argument can't fly.
3. Then you might say, "you can't undo killing someone so you better let them be born just in case that's what they wanted, and then they can decide to kill themselves if you were wrong." But what about the injustice that would be done if you were wrong? Wouldn't it be just as wrong to make someone be born who didn't want to be born as to prevent someone from being born who did want to be born? Why is one more wrong than the other? After all, dying in the womb results in unfathomably less suffering (physical and emotional) than dying in the world.
4. We just don't know if a baby wants to be born or if it doesn't. Until someone shows me otherwise, let's say there's a 50/50 chance either way. If a fetus were able to let us know that it wanted to be born, I would say it should be up to it and we shouldn't defy its wishes. But since it can't make that decision, it falls to someone else to make the decision for it. There is no better person to make this decision on behalf of the fetus than the mother (ideally in counsel with the father, the doctor, and God). Even if the baby were born and a life support decision needed to be made, the mother & father would have to make it. It's a difficult and complicated decision, and it's certainly not the place of you or me or any politicians or churches to judge it as black and white and make it for anyone else's child.
I do agree with most [EDIT: maybe not most, but a couple] of these points (which is why I'm neither really pro-life or pro-choice) but not the down syndrome one at all. I volunteer helping kids with down syndrome and they're some of the happiest people I've ever met, loving life for what it is. I can't imagine them not getting to experience life because someone thought they wouldn't want to.
Oh, I love Downs kids (and adults)! I've often considered adopting some someday. That's why I said "might"...
Have you considered the possibility that maybe you're both pro-choice and pro-life?
Oh, I love Downs kids (and adults)! I've often considered adopting some someday. That's why I said "might"...
Have you considered the possibility that maybe you're both pro-choice and pro-life?
Haha, I am I guess, which is why I hate arguing about abortion :(
And to your post above, I can see where you're coming from, but I just feel like it's so impossible to decide whether or not a baby should be born. Even if it doesn't have free will, I think it still has a right to feel and live and suffer if that's what ends up happening.
I just think we all take living for granted too much sometimes, and I can't imagine taking it away from someone. Except where there are extreme medical complications, where my whole pro-choice thing comes in...
Listen, I've answered your question, I don't believe there is any reason to kill a baby...
I get that. But that's not my question. My question is: What is the reason to NEVER kill a baby?
Yes, I'm aware that this sounds shocking and morbid and "ridiculous" and "stupid". (And I'm not saying that babies should necessarily be killed or that I, personally, don't have a billion reasons to not kill them.) But I think it's a very valid question since your view seems to rest on the assumption that the value of babies being born trumps everything else.
How do I know unborn babies want to be born? How the hell do you answer that? It's a natural process that, in the case of an abortion, requires an unatural event to end...so, my assumption is that the baby should be born if it takes an unnatural event to stop it.
Hey, maybe we're starting to get somewhere! Although I don't think you spoke to the free will of the fetus, I think you're saying something about the will (for lack of a better term) of nature and letting nature take it's course... that we shouldn't interfere with nature. Am I getting warm?
Haha, I am I guess, which is why I hate arguing about abortion :(
And to your post above, I can see where you're coming from, but I just feel like it's so impossible to decide whether or not a baby should be born. Even if it doesn't have free will, I think it still has a right to feel and live and suffer if that's what ends up happening.
I just think we all take living for granted too much sometimes, and I can't imagine taking it away from someone. Except where there are extreme medical complications, where my whole pro-choice thing comes in...
I have such conflicting views
I think, for most women, this is the most difficult decision they'll ever have to make. And they do their best to make it on behalf of their unborn (and born) children, who they love. And they don't make it lightly or selfishly. And, whatever they decide, they have to live with it forever. And they struggle. And they do their best. And each of their circumstances are unique circumstances that no one else can fully understand. And they are good women. And they are our sisters, daughters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, friends, and selves. And they don't deserve to be judged. And they don't deserve to have their very private decisions made by the public. And so, although I may not always agree with every woman's decision to have an abortion, I try to have compassion. And instead of interfering with the most personal moments of someone else's life, I just thank God every day that I'm not having to make this decision for myself.
I think, for most women, this is the most difficult decision they'll ever have to make. And they do their best to make it on behalf of their unborn (and born) children, who they love. And they don't make it lightly or selfishly. And, whatever they decide, they have to live with it forever. And they struggle. And they do their best. And each of their circumstances are unique circumstances that no one else can fully understand. And they are good women. And they are our sisters, daughters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, friends, and selves. And they don't deserve to be judged. And they don't deserve to have their very private decisions made by the public. And so, although I may not always agree with every woman's decision to have an abortion, I try to have compassion. And instead of interfering with the most personal moments of someone else's life, I just thank God every day that I'm not having to make this decision for myself.
Exactly!
I know a couple people who have gotten abortions and see how hard it was for them, and would never even consider judging them. I can't even imagine going through that.
So looks like we agree in the end
How do I know unborn babies want to be born? How the hell do you answer that? It's a natural process that, in the case of an abortion, requires an unatural event to end...so, my assumption is that the baby should be born if it takes an unnatural event to stop it.
This brings up a key reason I'm pro-choice that no one has discussed. Many pregnancies end without producing a child due to natural causes. A large percentage of embryos are miscarried in the early days, because the woman's reproductive system detects the physiologic conditions are not right to nurture a fetus. The clinical term is spontaneous abortion. I do understand how tramatic miscarriage can be, and the loss to the parents is very real and painful. But it does happen frequently that a pregnancy ends early, naturally.
For me, this where spirituality comes in. I don't believe the soul/spirit of a miscarried or aborted baby is denied a chance for life. My concept of spirit is that it is continuous and eternal. At times, a woman's body and the wisdom of nature, prevents a baby from being born and starting life. I believe it is also morally correct for human beings to do the same. The clinical term is theraputic abortion. I believe there are circumstances where the biologic conditions could produce a child, but the social, emotional, psychological conditions of the mother are not right for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth. Ideally people will use contraception to control and plan when they have children. But I strongly believe, as a last resort, having the option for abortion is preferably to forcing women to have unwanted children.
'There was never a time when you or I, did not exist, nor shall there be a time when we shall cease to be'
~ The bhagavad Gita.
“Wind in my hair, I feel part of everywhere...
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
This brings up a key reason I'm pro-choice that no one has discussed. Many pregnancies end without producing a child due to natural causes. A large percentage of embryos are miscarried in the early days, because the woman's reproductive system detects the physiologic conditions are not right to nurture a fetus. The clinical term is spontaneous abortion. I do understand how tramatic miscarriage can be, and the loss to the parents is very real and painful. But it does happen frequently that a pregnancy ends early, naturally.
For me, this where spirituality comes in. I don't believe the soul/spirit of a miscarried or aborted baby is denied a chance for life. My concept of spirit is that it is continuous and eternal. At times, a woman's body and the wisdom of nature, prevents a baby from being born and starting life. I believe it is also morally correct for human beings to do the same. The clinical term is theraputic abortion. I believe there are circumstances where the biologic conditions could produce a child, but the social, emotional, psychological conditions of the mother are not right for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth. Ideally people will use contraception to control and plan when they have children. But I strongly believe, as a last resort, having the option for abortion is preferably to forcing women to have unwanted children.
'There was never a time when you or I, did not exist, nor shall there be a time when we shall cease to be'
~ The bhagavad Gita.
boy... parents are whipped from the moment of conception these days... thats the problem with todays society... parents used to be able to choose if their kid died in year intervals... now its trimesters??... if youve had 5 years with your kid and he/she still isnt doing it for ya shouldnt you have a return policy? hey religious fanatics... check out abe and isaac... thats my kind of abortion... he even played the crazy "god was talking to me" card... we give a mindless fetus more choice than its mother and then wonder why kids dont respect their elders? it all starts in the womb people... not only am i pro-choice... im pro-abortion... and it all starts with realizing that not ALL babies are cute... in fact most are not... their proportion are all wrong and they do nothing of value for me or the economy
This brings up a key reason I'm pro-choice that no one has discussed. Many pregnancies end without producing a child due to natural causes. A large percentage of embryos are miscarried in the early days, because the woman's reproductive system detects the physiologic conditions are not right to nurture a fetus. The clinical term is spontaneous abortion. I do understand how tramatic miscarriage can be, and the loss to the parents is very real and painful. But it does happen frequently that a pregnancy ends early, naturally.
For me, this where spirituality comes in. I don't believe the soul/spirit of a miscarried or aborted baby is denied a chance for life. My concept of spirit is that it is continuous and eternal. At times, a woman's body and the wisdom of nature, prevents a baby from being born and starting life. I believe it is also morally correct for human beings to do the same. The clinical term is theraputic abortion. I believe there are circumstances where the biologic conditions could produce a child, but the social, emotional, psychological conditions of the mother are not right for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth. Ideally people will use contraception to control and plan when they have children. But I strongly believe, as a last resort, having the option for abortion is preferably to forcing women to have unwanted children.
'There was never a time when you or I, did not exist, nor shall there be a time when we shall cease to be'
~ The bhagavad Gita.
Interesting, but I still believe a difference between a natural ending of a pregnancy and a purposeful intervention to end a pregnancy that otherwise would have resulted in a baby being born.
I'm pro-choice too...women and men have the right to choose to have sex...and the right to choose to use contraception...and the right to do so knowing that contraceptives are not 100% effective.
For me, the issue of abortion is very simple and easy...except for women who get raped. There is no choice there and I can not begin to understand the potential damage done by having to give birth to the child of a rapist...but I also have not been convinced that you "punish" onew of th evictim (the baby) by killing it. Man I wish it was simple.
boy... parents are whipped from the moment of conception these days... thats the problem with todays society... parents used to be able to choose if their kid died in year intervals... now its trimesters??... if youve had 5 years with your kid and he/she still isnt doing it for ya shouldnt you have a return policy? hey religious fanatics... check out abe and isaac... thats my kind of abortion... he even played the crazy "god was talking to me" card... we give a mindless fetus more choice than its mother and then wonder why kids dont respect their elders? it all starts in the womb people... not only am i pro-choice... im pro-abortion... and it all starts with realizing that not ALL babies are cute... in fact most are not... their proportion are all wrong and they do nothing of value for me or the economy
Part of that made me laugh...
My stance on abortion has nothing to do with religion.
I was married, with children and using birth control when I fell pregnant. I had a choice. I could carry on with the pregancy, despite the fact that it would cause financial hardship, make life harder for the children I already had, maybe ultimately break up my marriage as we had BOTH decided not to have more children or I could have a termination and carry on as before. Life would not get any easier for me or my family, but it would not get any harder either. It was not just me, or the baby that I had to consider. What about the children that I HAD decided to bring into the world already? What about their right to a good and stable life? A home, food and a secure family?
At that time, my husband and I discussed things and I decided to carry on with the pregnancy. It is not a decision I regret. I was married and I had a home and a family to bring a child into. So I made my decision based on those facts.
I cannot say whether someone in different circumstances would make the same decision as me, or if I would make the same decision at another time or place in my life, but I absolutely respect the right of any woman to make that choice. I did what was right for me, my family, and my baby.
It was not just me, or the baby that I had to consider. What about the children that I HAD decided to bring into the world already? What about their right to a good and stable life? A home, food and a secure family?
I think this is an extremely important point that many people easily forget. The majority of women who have abortions are poor. The majority of women who have abortions are also mothers, so they have other children to consider. One of the primary reasons women give for having abortions is responsibility to others.
People forget that oftentimes continuing a pregnancy puts the well-being of existing kids at risk. How is punishing innocent children who have already been born necessarily any more right than "punishing" "children" who have not yet been born (and aren't even aware of what's going on)?
It's truly the perfect topic for the ultimate debate. Always has been. Lots of emotion on both sides, and plenty of ammunition on either side to use logically (at least most of the time).
I don't see one side winning any time soon.
For the record, I am pro choice. I acknowledge that in an abortion, the doctor is ending a "life" or at least the potential life of a human being. I believe the downside of that (which is significant) is outweighed by the right of a woman to have control over her body, coupled with the proven disastrous consequences of having abortion be illegal. Abortion is a horrible reality, but the choice to have one is, sadly, necessary in a free country. I guess that is the best way I can explain it on my side. I am sure half of you disagree though.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
coupled with the proven disastrous consequences of having abortion be illegal. Abortion is a horrible reality, but the choice to have one is, sadly, necessary in a free country.
VERY very true. To get rid of abortions all together would be so disastrous...woman would just be getting back alley abortions, which would cause way more complications to women, possibly even death.
VERY very true. To get rid of abortions all together would be so disastrous...woman would just be getting back alley abortions, which would cause way more complications to women, possibly even death.
History showed the horror stories. If not "back alleys," at least unlicensed doctors in the US, or doctors in Mexico or other countriess. The rich would go to Canada or Europe. The very poor would try to do it themselves or have someone who doesn't know how do it for them. Not good alternative for most people. These things have already happened within some of our lifetimes, but I think lots of people don't know how bad it was.
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
My stance on abortion has nothing to do with religion.
Mine too. My stance against abortion started before I refound my religion. I always have thought of abortion as a terrible act, while I spent a good amount of my life questioning my faith.
I find it funny how the proaborts will throw the judemental label on the ProLifers when they are just as guilty.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Interesting, but I still believe a difference between a natural ending of a pregnancy and a purposeful intervention to end a pregnancy that otherwise would have resulted in a baby being born.
I'm pro-choice too...women and men have the right to choose to have sex...and the right to choose to use contraception...and the right to do so knowing that contraceptives are not 100% effective.
For me, the issue of abortion is very simple and easy...except for women who get raped. There is no choice there and I can not begin to understand the potential damage done by having to give birth to the child of a rapist...but I also have not been convinced that you "punish" onew of th evictim (the baby) by killing it. Man I wish it was simple.
Well stated. I understand your position and the reasons supporting it with one exception. Do you not agree that an unplanned pregnancy also can devastate people's lives (not just the mother's) in circumstances other than rape?
Maybe you do, but also consider that the life of the baby always takes higher precedence? Carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up for adoption is not very simple and easy. Becoming a mother changes the course of a woman's life, even if she doesn't raise the child. Historically, the lack of control over childbearing has been a huge factor in women's health and poverty.
In my mind, there is a definite distinction between ending the potential life of a fetus in early gestation and killing someone who has been born. I understand that others don't see it that way.
“Wind in my hair, I feel part of everywhere...
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
Well stated. I understand your position and the reasons supporting it with one exception. Do you not agree that an unplanned pregnancy also can devastate people's lives (not just the mother's) in circumstances other than rape?
Maybe you do, but also consider that the life of the baby always takes higher precedence? Carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up for adoption is not very simple and easy. Becoming a mother changes the course of a woman's life, even if she doesn't raise the child. Historically, the lack of control over childbearing has been a huge factor in women's health and poverty.
In my mind, there is a definite distinction between ending the potential life of a fetus in early gestation and killing someone who has been born. I understand that others don't see it that way.
Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.
I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.
I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
I think your point of view is pretty common, and I understand it. But it also unfortunately begs the question of where "life" begins, which is one of the abortion debate's pitfalls. At birth? At viability? At conception? Before conception (one can say that the sperm and egg are themselves "alive")? At what point does the right of the innocent sperm+egg combination trump the rights of the people who are alive?
San Diego 10/25/00, Mountain View 6/1/03, Santa Barbara 10/28/03, Northwest School 3/18/05, San Diego 7/7/06, Los Angeles 7/9/06, 7/10/06, Honolulu (U2) 12/9/06, Santa Barbara (EV) 4/10/08, Los Angeles (EV) 4/12/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield 6/28/08, VH1 Rock Honors The Who 7/12/08, Seattle 9/21/09, Universal City 9/30/09, 10/1/09, 10/6/09, 10/7/09, San Diego 10/9/09, Los Angeles (EV) 7/8/11, Santa Barbara (EV) 7/9/11, Chicago 7/19/13, San Diego 11/21/13, Los Angeles 11/23/13, 11/24/13, Oakland 11/26/13, Chicago 8/22/16, Missoula 8/13/18, Boston 9/2/18, Los Angeles 2/25/22 (EV), San Diego 5/3/22, Los Angeles 5/6/22, 5/7/22, Imola 6/25/22, Los Angeles 5/21/24, [London 6/29/24], [Boston 9/15/24]
Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.
I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
The negative effect may not just be on the mothers/siblings life. It can be on the baby life too.
I had an unplanned pregancy that I chose to carry on with. I had the choice. If that had been taken from me, if I was forced to carry it on with no say, who's to say that I wouldn't have resented the child for that? Blamed a baby for the negative effects on mine and other lives? No mother wants that.
Because the decision was mine, that never happened. I had no regrets about having another child. I was fully aware of what could have happened and accepted it. Because I made the choice.
Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.
Got it. I hear you.
“Wind in my hair, I feel part of everywhere...
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
Comments
First of all, thanks for the direct, thoughtful, insult-free question!
Here are the first scenarios that pop into my head that might be in the best interest of the unborn child. (I say might because, unless it's my child or my patient, I don't think it's my place to judge.)
1. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that will be fatal, but extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with any number of medical conditions that would not be fatal, but would be extremely painful for the duration of the child's life.
2. Babies who would otherwise be born with diseases such as AIDS or Down Syndrome.
3. Babies who, if born, would have to suffer through drug withdrawal.
These are only a few of the ways some babies, if born, suffer physically. Of course there are many other ways in which babies/children/people who are born often suffer emotionally. I was going to list some, but my understaning of your perspective is that we can't ever know that a child will suffer emotionally, so emotional suffering shouldn't factor in. Is that right?
If so, should the risk of emotional suffering factor in? I mean, in this comparison between the benefit of being born versus the benefit of not being born, should we consider whether a child has a 25% chance of emotional suffering versus a 90% chance and weigh that accordingly, or should it always weigh in at 0%?
Also, how do you measure the benefit of being born?
Also, I understand how people believe that babies should not be aborted simply for the benefit of the mother. But should we consider the benefit of abortion to anyone else like, for instance, other babies? If having Baby B would make Baby A suffer, is that still ALWAYS the right choice - period?
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
I do agree with most [EDIT: maybe not most, but a couple] of these points (which is why I'm neither really pro-life or pro-choice) but not the down syndrome one at all. I volunteer helping kids with down syndrome and they're some of the happiest people I've ever met, loving life for what it is. I can't imagine them not getting to experience life because someone thought they wouldn't want to.
Listen, I've answered your question, I don't believe there is any reason to kill a baby...the only time where I believe abortion to be a decision for a mother to make is if the life of the mother is in danger due to the pregnancy/birth...otherwise there is no situation where I believe the life of the child should be taken. I'm not really what you are trying to get me to say, perhaps we have a misunderstanding.
The reason I'm insulting your statement is because everytime I have read it the way I interpret it, it seems to be a really dumb statement. Just telling you what I read and how I see it.
My age? C'mon now don't get silly. I'm plenty old enough...have a child of my own. I wasn't trying to attack you personally, just the 1 statement you made.
How do I know unborn babies want to be born? How the hell do you answer that? It's a natural process that, in the case of an abortion, requires an unatural event to end...so, my assumption is that the baby should be born if it takes an unnatural event to stop it.
finally something reasonable!!!
this statement made me remember a drunk rant i made about how hysterectomies and vasectomies should be free to all those that want one.
Well, for one thing, it's debatable whether preventing someone from being born is the same as killing them. But, for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:
1. The whole "does the baby want to be born or not?" question assumes that a fetus or embryo has free will to even have a desire one way or the other. Given especially that nearly 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester, I think it's really a BIG stretch to say that they do. And yet people frequently imply that abortion kills babies against their will. Mustn't they first prove that a fetus has a free will before they can say it's even possible for us to go againt it?
2. Even if a fetus had a free will, now it must be shown that the will of the fetus is to be born before abortions can be said to violate that will. This hasn't and can't be shown. I understand your point that we also can't show that a fetus wants to not be born, and I agree. But I'm not trying to say a fetus necessarily wants to not be born like others are saying it necessarily wants to be born. My whole point is that you (or whoever) don't know any more than I do, so that argument can't fly.
3. Then you might say, "you can't undo killing someone so you better let them be born just in case that's what they wanted, and then they can decide to kill themselves if you were wrong." But what about the injustice that would be done if you were wrong? Wouldn't it be just as wrong to make someone be born who didn't want to be born as to prevent someone from being born who did want to be born? Why is one more wrong than the other? After all, dying in the womb results in unfathomably less suffering (physical and emotional) than dying in the world.
4. We just don't know if a baby wants to be born or if it doesn't. Until someone shows me otherwise, let's say there's a 50/50 chance either way. If a fetus were able to let us know that it wanted to be born, I would say it should be up to it and we shouldn't defy its wishes. But since it can't make that decision, it falls to someone else to make the decision for it. There is no better person to make this decision on behalf of the fetus than the mother (ideally in counsel with the father, the doctor, and God). Even if the baby were born and a life support decision needed to be made, the mother & father would have to make it. It's a difficult and complicated decision, and it's certainly not the place of you or me or any politicians or churches to judge it as black and white and make it for anyone else's child.
5. See #1.
Oh, I love Downs kids (and adults)! I've often considered adopting some someday. That's why I said "might"...
Have you considered the possibility that maybe you're both pro-choice and pro-life?
Haha, I am I guess, which is why I hate arguing about abortion :(
And to your post above, I can see where you're coming from, but I just feel like it's so impossible to decide whether or not a baby should be born. Even if it doesn't have free will, I think it still has a right to feel and live and suffer if that's what ends up happening.
I just think we all take living for granted too much sometimes, and I can't imagine taking it away from someone. Except where there are extreme medical complications, where my whole pro-choice thing comes in...
I have such conflicting views
I get that. But that's not my question. My question is: What is the reason to NEVER kill a baby?
Yes, I'm aware that this sounds shocking and morbid and "ridiculous" and "stupid". (And I'm not saying that babies should necessarily be killed or that I, personally, don't have a billion reasons to not kill them.) But I think it's a very valid question since your view seems to rest on the assumption that the value of babies being born trumps everything else.
Hey, maybe we're starting to get somewhere!
I think, for most women, this is the most difficult decision they'll ever have to make. And they do their best to make it on behalf of their unborn (and born) children, who they love. And they don't make it lightly or selfishly. And, whatever they decide, they have to live with it forever. And they struggle. And they do their best. And each of their circumstances are unique circumstances that no one else can fully understand. And they are good women. And they are our sisters, daughters, mothers, wives, girlfriends, friends, and selves. And they don't deserve to be judged. And they don't deserve to have their very private decisions made by the public. And so, although I may not always agree with every woman's decision to have an abortion, I try to have compassion. And instead of interfering with the most personal moments of someone else's life, I just thank God every day that I'm not having to make this decision for myself.
Exactly!
I know a couple people who have gotten abortions and see how hard it was for them, and would never even consider judging them. I can't even imagine going through that.
So looks like we agree in the end
This brings up a key reason I'm pro-choice that no one has discussed. Many pregnancies end without producing a child due to natural causes. A large percentage of embryos are miscarried in the early days, because the woman's reproductive system detects the physiologic conditions are not right to nurture a fetus. The clinical term is spontaneous abortion. I do understand how tramatic miscarriage can be, and the loss to the parents is very real and painful. But it does happen frequently that a pregnancy ends early, naturally.
For me, this where spirituality comes in. I don't believe the soul/spirit of a miscarried or aborted baby is denied a chance for life. My concept of spirit is that it is continuous and eternal. At times, a woman's body and the wisdom of nature, prevents a baby from being born and starting life. I believe it is also morally correct for human beings to do the same. The clinical term is theraputic abortion. I believe there are circumstances where the biologic conditions could produce a child, but the social, emotional, psychological conditions of the mother are not right for carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth. Ideally people will use contraception to control and plan when they have children. But I strongly believe, as a last resort, having the option for abortion is preferably to forcing women to have unwanted children.
'There was never a time when you or I, did not exist, nor shall there be a time when we shall cease to be'
~ The bhagavad Gita.
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
Well said. Thank you.
http://seanbriceart.com/
Interesting, but I still believe a difference between a natural ending of a pregnancy and a purposeful intervention to end a pregnancy that otherwise would have resulted in a baby being born.
I'm pro-choice too...women and men have the right to choose to have sex...and the right to choose to use contraception...and the right to do so knowing that contraceptives are not 100% effective.
For me, the issue of abortion is very simple and easy...except for women who get raped. There is no choice there and I can not begin to understand the potential damage done by having to give birth to the child of a rapist...but I also have not been convinced that you "punish" onew of th evictim (the baby) by killing it. Man I wish it was simple.
Part of that made me laugh...
My stance on abortion has nothing to do with religion.
At that time, my husband and I discussed things and I decided to carry on with the pregnancy. It is not a decision I regret. I was married and I had a home and a family to bring a child into. So I made my decision based on those facts.
I cannot say whether someone in different circumstances would make the same decision as me, or if I would make the same decision at another time or place in my life, but I absolutely respect the right of any woman to make that choice. I did what was right for me, my family, and my baby.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I think this is an extremely important point that many people easily forget. The majority of women who have abortions are poor. The majority of women who have abortions are also mothers, so they have other children to consider. One of the primary reasons women give for having abortions is responsibility to others.
People forget that oftentimes continuing a pregnancy puts the well-being of existing kids at risk. How is punishing innocent children who have already been born necessarily any more right than "punishing" "children" who have not yet been born (and aren't even aware of what's going on)?
I don't see one side winning any time soon.
For the record, I am pro choice. I acknowledge that in an abortion, the doctor is ending a "life" or at least the potential life of a human being. I believe the downside of that (which is significant) is outweighed by the right of a woman to have control over her body, coupled with the proven disastrous consequences of having abortion be illegal. Abortion is a horrible reality, but the choice to have one is, sadly, necessary in a free country. I guess that is the best way I can explain it on my side. I am sure half of you disagree though.
VERY very true. To get rid of abortions all together would be so disastrous...woman would just be getting back alley abortions, which would cause way more complications to women, possibly even death.
History showed the horror stories. If not "back alleys," at least unlicensed doctors in the US, or doctors in Mexico or other countriess. The rich would go to Canada or Europe. The very poor would try to do it themselves or have someone who doesn't know how do it for them. Not good alternative for most people. These things have already happened within some of our lifetimes, but I think lots of people don't know how bad it was.
Mine too. My stance against abortion started before I refound my religion. I always have thought of abortion as a terrible act, while I spent a good amount of my life questioning my faith.
I find it funny how the proaborts will throw the judemental label on the ProLifers when they are just as guilty.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Well stated. I understand your position and the reasons supporting it with one exception. Do you not agree that an unplanned pregnancy also can devastate people's lives (not just the mother's) in circumstances other than rape?
Maybe you do, but also consider that the life of the baby always takes higher precedence? Carrying a child, giving birth and giving it up for adoption is not very simple and easy. Becoming a mother changes the course of a woman's life, even if she doesn't raise the child. Historically, the lack of control over childbearing has been a huge factor in women's health and poverty.
In my mind, there is a definite distinction between ending the potential life of a fetus in early gestation and killing someone who has been born. I understand that others don't see it that way.
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
Yes, I agree that any unplanned pregnancy could have a negative effect on someone's life...but I do think that th elife of the child trumps that effect on it;s parents/siblings, etc. Innocent life trumps.
I understand your position well though, and while I disagree, it makes sense to me.
I think your point of view is pretty common, and I understand it. But it also unfortunately begs the question of where "life" begins, which is one of the abortion debate's pitfalls. At birth? At viability? At conception? Before conception (one can say that the sperm and egg are themselves "alive")? At what point does the right of the innocent sperm+egg combination trump the rights of the people who are alive?
I had an unplanned pregancy that I chose to carry on with. I had the choice. If that had been taken from me, if I was forced to carry it on with no say, who's to say that I wouldn't have resented the child for that? Blamed a baby for the negative effects on mine and other lives? No mother wants that.
Because the decision was mine, that never happened. I had no regrets about having another child. I was fully aware of what could have happened and accepted it. Because I made the choice.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
Got it. I hear you.
Late at night I hear the trees, they're singing with the dead...overhead...”
How so?