2024 Tour Merch Thread-Any Info or Pictures to share

Poncier

demetrios said:

https://instagram.com/p/C8Ky0cjycGx/embed/

I like that shirt.

cincybearcat

Spiritual_Chaos said:

InHiding406 said:

bradklausen said:

on2legs said:

Artists want and need people to flip their posters.  It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.  

i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...

as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.

As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"... 

so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks  here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh 

I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults. 

And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later.  Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.


I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation.... 


the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever. 

Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse).  Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40.  Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem. 

This is the weirdest logic I've seen.

Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.

Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.

Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen?  It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.

Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure.  And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price.  Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.

lastexitlondon

They are not underpriced at all. 
There is a limited amount that's the issue. It's down to timings and speed of purchase. 
People paying more on secondary markets is an act of desperation. 
Making things dearer just makes it dearer each step. It stops nothing. 
People here seem to have endless money for merch . 

ZoSoTim

I saw that post and rolled my eyes. Glad Brad responded. 

Spiritual_Chaos

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

InHiding406 said:

bradklausen said:

on2legs said:

Artists want and need people to flip their posters.  It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.  

i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...

as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.

As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"... 

so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks  here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh 

I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults. 

And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later.  Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.


I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation.... 


the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever. 

Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse).  Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40.  Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem. 

This is the weirdest logic I've seen.

Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.

Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.

Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen?  It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.

Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure.  And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price.  Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.

This isn't about "supply" but flippability. If Brad had 10.000 posters instead for the same price, the problem would be less. Because more supply.

But with the constant of limited supply, I am certain that the flipper number will stay pretty much intact with a pricehike and posters will be flipped for even higher prices. You will not get rid of flippers by hiking up the price. But just pricing out a lot of genuine fans.

So as many posters flipped and a bunch of Billy Zanes being able to get one.
Less chance for fans on the lower deck who will freeze to death without a poster in hand.

At the same time, maybe that whole "artist variant" thing is just for people who are buying as investments to cash in (flippers and flippers-light being that whole scene). Then hike up the prices, but make the ordinary show poster as easy to get for people as possible. 

And to end things, I imagine your theory of "limited supply" actually being better economically for the artist than a timed window could be correct. 

bradklausen

the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it. 

if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse

if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files. 

the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will... 

art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show. 

Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120..  I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community  and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong.... 

it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react

as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.  

ZoSoTim

Appreciate your input on the forum, Brad. 

lastexitlondon

Well said. 

Kwieneke

This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ? 

bradklausen

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

InHiding406 said:

bradklausen said:

on2legs said:

Artists want and need people to flip their posters.  It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.  

i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...

as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.

As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"... 

so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks  here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh 

I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults. 

And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later.  Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.


I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation.... 


the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever. 

Isn’t part of the solution to charge more for the posters? If you have 1000s of people wanting to buy something there is 100 of at the price it is marketed at, then the price is too low. Higher prices will deter flippers on the margin, more posters into the hands of “real fans” (of course, those who can afford the higher prices, for better or worse).  Sure it’s not “fair” to fans who can pay $100 for an AP but not $250, but the $100 isn’t “fair” to those who could only pay $40.  Taking it a step further, segment the market with other variants, limited prints, etc (not that that is no work to do!). No silver bullet that will eliminate those who seek to exploit market inefficiencies…but directly reducing inefficiencies will reduce the problem. 

This is the weirdest logic I've seen.

Timed presale is the best way to give everyone a chance to snag one. Like with the vaults. Great setup by Pj for those.

Also, variants are for the same people who champion the CG animals outside of Mos Eisley. Or who want to have the option of having Deckard be a replicant one day but not the other. Signed and numbered sure But variants.... Naw -- go-go Power Singular Artistic Vision Rangers.

Supply and demand is the weirdest logic you have seen?  It's 100% clear that if the posters are selling out that fast AND people are then immediately paying more for them on a secondary market, that they are underpriced.

Now - I can appreciate anyone that is willing to keep prices more reasonable AND work to try and limit flippers for sure.  And for the fans, a timed presale is the best answer to get what you want for a cheaper price.  Unsure if that is truly the best for the artist.

This isn't about "supply" but flippability. If Brad had 10.000 posters instead for the same price, the problem would be less. Because more supply.

But with the constant of limited supply, I am certain that the flipper number will stay pretty much intact with a pricehike and posters will be flipped for even higher prices. You will not get rid of flippers by hiking up the price. But just pricing out a lot of genuine fans.

So as many posters flipped and a bunch of Billy Zanes being able to get one.
Less chance for fans on the lower deck who will freeze to death without a poster in hand.

At the same time, maybe that whole "artist variant" thing is just for people who are buying as investments to cash in (flippers and flippers-light being that whole scene). Then hike up the prices, but make the ordinary show poster as easy to get for people as possible. 

And to end things, I imagine your theory of "limited supply" actually being better economically for the artist than a timed window could be correct. 

the artist variant thing is for the artists to be able to hopefully make a little more money... if the artists copy is different then what is at the show, the artist can charge a little more and maybe guarantee they will sell all their copies... it's the merch company's way of trying to help the artist maybe make a little more on each poster.

 From the outside you can see a poster sell out and do the math in your head and go "oh so and so made 12k on that sale today, must be nice" but you don't see the months that went by where maybe that artist wasn't making ANY money, and that 12k comes long just at the nick of time to make up for periods of no income and some of it is already going to pay for past bills. 

as I stated often poster artists are highly under paid... and we get paid in product that we then have to sell in order to see any income for our work, and if the product doesn't sell you don't get paid. It's a weird gig. PJ gives posters artists the most posters of any band / merch companies... when the big baseball stadium shows come around PJ / Tsurt gives artists far more then any other bands / merch companies and artists do very well generally from those sales... you'd be amazed at how hard it is to get a merch company to agree to giving you 40 posters as your fee..... or even harder, getting a design fee in cash plus some number of copies you can sell.

Imagine having a job where after you complete what you were hired to do (make the art), you don't get paid for it but then have to do other jobs (advertisement / promotion, manage an online store , handle customer service, run a "shipping dept.") to get paid and your payment is not guaranteed and could be much less then you expected. 

So the variants are for the artists to hopefully help them maybe make a little more then they would have normally. 

100 Pacer

Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.

bradklausen

ZoSoTim said:

Appreciate your input on the forum, Brad. 

i am a poster fan like y'all 

DKedzie

bradklausen said:

the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it. 

if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse

if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files. 

the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will... 

art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show. 

Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120..  I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community  and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong.... 

it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react

as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.  

I hear a lot of other artists express the same thing, about it being a crap shoot, and not really knowing if a poster will be an instant sellout, or sit in the shop, at the price point they thought was appropriate.
I thought the recent DMB by Daniel Danger was well-received by fans and highly sought after. He's charging $240 (after shipping) for an 18x24 foil, and it still hasn't sold out (there are 13 left). The regs at $140 (after shipping) are still available too.
Do people think he overcharged, and that's why not as many sold? The price does seem a bit above the norm for an AP.

I don't say this disparagingly, and is not the only example I've seen of this - charging somewhat high above a typical AP price on an initial drop. (It's different when it's something from the archives.)
I love Daniel's work, and own many of his pieces, and hope he sells them all.
Just using it as a most recent example I could think of where a popular print by a popular artist is still available in their shop.

Kearn5y

bradklausen said:

ZoSoTim said:

Appreciate your input on the forum, Brad. 

i am a poster fan like y'all 

Can I ask, who is your favorite artist or what is your favorite PJ poster?

lastexitlondon

these 2 are mine

bradklausen

100 Pacer said:

Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.

subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity! 

I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...

100 Pacer

bradklausen said:

100 Pacer said:

Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.

subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity! 

I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is Isomething I should ruminate on Morein...

Please do. 

👍🤘

bradklausen

DKedzie said:

bradklausen said:

the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it. 

if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse

if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files. 

the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will... 

art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show. 

Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120..  I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community  and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong.... 

it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react

as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.  

I hear a lot of other artists express the same thing, about it being a crap shoot, and not really knowing if a poster will be an instant sellout, or sit in the shop, at the price point they thought was appropriate.
I thought the recent DMB by Daniel Danger was well-received by fans and highly sought after. He's charging $240 (after shipping) for an 18x24 foil, and it still hasn't sold out (there are 13 left). The regs at $140 (after shipping) are still available too.
Do people think he overcharged, and that's why not as many sold? The price does seem a bit above the norm for an AP.

I don't say this disparagingly, and is not the only example I've seen of this - charging somewhat high above a typical AP price on an initial drop. (It's different when it's something from the archives.)
I love Daniel's work, and own many of his pieces, and hope he sells them all.
Just using it as a most recent example I could think of where a popular print by a popular artist is still available in their shop.

I cannot speak to Daniel's sales as I don't know what his normal sales are like... but perhaps he charged too much for that print (I haven't seen it), i dunno... everything is costing more these days as we are all well aware.... so people have less money to spend on things like art or a hobby... more people are not buying concert tickets because the prices are too high... so it becomes a tricky spot to figure out the sweet spot as to where to price your work so that you maximize your profit and don't end up shooting yourself in the foot 

one of my favorite things about gigposters was they were always affordable art... you could go to a show at the Crocodile or Showbox here in seattle, pay $20-40 bucks for a ticket, walk in a buy some cool art for $25 and have a few bucks left for some beer... affordable cool art for the people who maybe don't have tons of extra cash to buy art

and for those of you who remember when I first made PJ posters I charged $25 for them.... then Ames said you should charge $60... and I thought "...i would make twice as much,.... okay!" 

then new non gig poster artists started showing up in pj land, street artists and gallery artists, people whose art prints they sell for $500 and up, so they do a pj poster and charge over $100... and you see them sell out.... and you think "should I charge that much?".... then you see inflation hit and everything costs more, the price of tubes doubles, shipping costs always go up, everything costs more... and you think "since everything costs more and this is effecting me too, should I be charging more for my products, as I too am feeling the effects of inflation on my business expenses and cost of living?"

so right now at this moment in time, at least in the US, I can't speak to inflation in other countries, everything seems like ti costs more and people have less money..... art is a lovely glorious amazing aspect of the human experience, and we all agree music and art makes life so much better, but it is not necessary for survival... it's one of the firs things up on the block when things get financially tight

on2legs

bradklausen said:

on2legs said:

Artists want and need people to flip their posters.  It’s a market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.  

i don't know about other artists, but I completely disagree...

as an artist I do not want people to flip my posters nor need them to... as much as fans may not like flippers, the fan is merely missing out on not being able to acquire a work of art they would like to own or forced to pay more then it was originally... as an artist, the flipper is making money off my work that they had no part in and deserve no amount of money from work they had nothing to do with.

As artists we often get used all the time.... we get hired on the basis of "this will be good exposure for you, look good in your portfolio, so we don't have to pay you very much or at all" and / or "theres's a line of people behind you who will do it for free, so take it or leave it".... we pour our creativity, time and energy into work and believe it or not, in the big internationally famous spectacle of the music industry, artists often don't get paid great... ask any major band how they feel about how little they get paid from streaming services... before that it was how badly music artists get screwed by record labels (i too think ticket sales have become ridiculous but bands are losing avenues to make money, so I can understand it partially).... like all aspects the 1% of artists are the multi millionaires, be they musician or artist or actor or any medium,.. people see the top and assume it's that way for all... it's not.. there's a reason why there's the cliche about "the starving artist"... 

so when some random dude gets to profit $100-300 bucks off flipping one of my posters, they are a leech, slithering up after all the work has been done, contributing zero in any shape or form to the piece of art that was made, and THEY get to make money.......???? It's not a lot of money, a few hundred bucks  here and there but no one except the artist should be able to profit at ALL... so on top of pouring your heart and soul into your work and 8 out of 10 times not getting remotely compensated fairly for your time and energy, some other jack asses are making money off your work on the side?? gtfoh 

I don't want that... not only that, flippers add more of a headache to my job.... on top of the job i was hired to do, creating the artwork for weeks, before i get paid, I then have to sell my posters... I have to become customer service, the mail room staff, the store manager, and then I have to now police and look for flippers and then field emails from people complaining about flippers or crying about how they are not a flipper after I refund their order... so for being hired to make art for a poster, it also comes with a side dish of handling unnecessary drama from grown adults. 

And it's not market force that drives a poster to sell out a moment after it goes on sale.... it's the quality of the work and if it resonates with fans.I know this because I've had posters sell out in a moment and posters that are still in my flat file drawers years and years later.  Sure some buy them because they know they can flip it immediately and make a couple hundred bucks right away but most people are not flippers. The extremes, in probably almost everything, are not the standard. Most people just want the poster. And that too is why they sell out in a moment after they go on sale... you at times have thousands of people all vying for 100 - 200 of the same thing... people from all over the world all black fridaying a website looking for a known limited item at exactly the same time.


I partially apologize for the rant, I've been packing posters this weekend and the flipper thing is fresh on my brain and irritation as it just causes me more work and more headache... and this post caught the raw end of that irritation.... 


the sad reality: flipping is an ever present never going away aspect of this interest / passion / hobby we all love... until we solve the whole no longer interested in greed as a species, flipping will always be here and a part of this as it has been the whole time. It's the same conversation / complaints about flippers every time, year after year... they are not going away today or tomorrow or next year or ever. 

Hey! Sorry! I didn’t mean to insult you and I’m glad you took the time to give us your perspective.  It makes a lot of sense.  I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you encourage flipping or approve of it.   👍🏻

bradklausen

Kearn5y said:

bradklausen said:

ZoSoTim said:

Appreciate your input on the forum, Brad. 

i am a poster fan like y'all 

Can I ask, who is your favorite artist or what is your favorite PJ poster?

hmmmmm... I'd have to take some time to answer my favorite PJ poster..... would wanna go through the archives cause I bet there's some I forgot about.....  it's not necessarily my favorite but I was really impressed with Bella Grace's hyde park poster.. i thought it was a nice sophisticated mature pretty poster that the wives of the male poster collectors would see and think "that's not full of skulls or sports or pop culture man things, we could frame that and put it in the hall"... Bella achieved what I think about all the time but I don't think I succeed at, which is making a poster that speaks to men AND women and is just a visually cool colorful piece that isn't something just for us poster dudes to frame in our man cave or music room. 

my favorite artist... there's many... I love love love James Jean, I am happy I get to be alive while he is alive and making work....I recently stumbled upon the work of Robbin Trevino whose work makes me swoon...  gig poster artists there's too many too name and I will forget some... but Ken Taylor, Horkey, Drew Millward, Mike Fudge, Travis Gillan, Rob Jones, Wildner Lima, Jay Ryan, Ryan Besch (YourCinema), NC Winters, there's too many to keep track of, so much talent!   and lots of new artists coming up that are doing next level stuff... I don't like using social media but glad I am looking at instagram more as it has introduced me to so many new artists and people I didn't know about... it's funny I will go to instagram every day and look at art and comment and talk to people and be proud of myself "for using instagram more"  but then never post on my own feed / page! So in my dumb head if I comment on other people's work I think "see I am getting better at using this social media thing!"