2024 Tour Merch Thread-Any Info or Pictures to share
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My opinion.
Proud maybe that someone rates it that highly.
Money..? Why I don't get that part.
Think about all the tattoos out there
Is che Guevara getting money or bob Marley for people getting their picture? Doesn't work
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -0 -
shecky said:
I've often wondered about this - how do poster artists feel about people using their artwork on a tattoo. I'm not trying to start trouble or put anyone on the spot, but I am truly curious. Do you imagine most artists take it as a compliment and aren't bothered at all or do they maybe think "you know, I'm glad you dig my artwork, but I spent a lot of time and hard work creating it. At the very least, I'd appreciate you asking my permission first. And I would not object to you sending me some compensation via Paypal etc." After all, the tattoo artist sure as hell is getting paid. Opinions anyone?lastexitlondon said:
I have it as a tattoo23scidoo said:
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..bradklausen said:
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...Kwieneke said:This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
emek's book has a couple pages on people with his work tats. He likey.
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If only we had a poster artist on this forum to answer that question.
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njhaley1 said:AP UFO prints might be shipping? I just got an email from USPS about a certified package coming from Blaine, WA.Maybe? Did your https://garrettmorlancreative.com/commerce/orders/ order url update?I haven't received my shipping email yet.
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Didn't think to check, hasn't updated yet. Can't think of anything coming by certified mail from Washington I've ordered, but I have had some crossed wires from USPS informed delivery lately so it could be an error.demetrios said:njhaley1 said:AP UFO prints might be shipping? I just got an email from USPS about a certified package coming from Blaine, WA.Maybe? Did your https://garrettmorlancreative.com/commerce/orders/ order url update?I haven't received my shipping email yet.0 -
Agree that flippers are parasitic scum, and the stock market and food bank are imperfect analogies. But flippers can be beneficial in some cases. For example, if you couldn't try for the AP drop because of work, or just didn't want to stand in a six hour merch line for a duffel bag or skate deck. If 100% of the items went to "fans" who have no interest in selling, you'd never be able to get the item.
The flipper didn't prevent me from getting the item if I wasn't even there to try for it. Assuming no flippers participated in the drop, there were surely enough "fans" going for it to sell out anyway.Post edited by SHZA on0 -
It's very flattering that someone would want to permanently have your art on their body... I have no tattoos myself, but am a fan of the art form.shecky said:
I've often wondered about this - how do poster artists feel about people using their artwork on a tattoo. I'm not trying to start trouble or put anyone on the spot, but I am truly curious. Do you imagine most artists take it as a compliment and aren't bothered at all or do they maybe think "you know, I'm glad you dig my artwork, but I spent a lot of time and hard work creating it. At the very least, I'd appreciate you asking my permission first. And I would not object to you sending me some compensation via Paypal etc." After all, the tattoo artist sure as hell is getting paid. Opinions anyone?lastexitlondon said:
I have it as a tattoo23scidoo said:
Dusseldorf 2007 Brad!!..thank you for this!!..bradklausen said:
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...Kwieneke said:This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?
I think the only issue arises is if the tattoo artist is good.... cause if they are not, then your art is being, in my opinion, poorly presented. So to people out there who want a tattoo of any art.... shop around for an artists before walking into your local nearest tattoo shop and just letting who ever is available permanently mark you. Because not all tattoo artists are good at what they do... it's a tough medium to work in.
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Proud owner of many of your posters including 2004 Showbox, 2005 Borgata (pink), Chicago 2005, Honolulu 2006, AP 2010 Dublin, East Troy 2011 and more.bradklausen said:
hard to say... always liked 2010 dublin... I like 2018 seattle.... milton keynes... the sunrise florida one I like... I am sure i am forgetting some... camden 2008...Kwieneke said:This is a very interesting look behind the curtain for us! Since we're on the topic, do you have a favorite print you have done for PJ?0 -
1.stock trading is not something I know much about at all.InHiding406 said:
No need to be more concise, this is really thoughtful. Two quibbles that may or may not be relavent:bradklausen said:
agreed, no law is being broken... and once something is your's in your possession that you paid for with your money you are free to do with it however you want. I have no issues with any person reselling anything they own... the issue is with people who are specifically buying something with no intention of ever having it or wanting to own it but they use it to take advantage of people they know just want the same thing... again it's not illegal, there's no crime... it just sucks and is a gross aspect of human nature... it'd be akin to someone going to a food bank and taking more then they need with the idea they can resell that food at a profit to people who couldn't get the food because that person took more then their share.. which would also not be a crime but is just shitty selfish human greed.. and therein lies the sheen of bad formInHiding406 said:
Thank you for the response & the insight on this. Fascinating, though understandable, art being what it is, that it is such a crap shoot.bradklausen said:the supply and demand aspect.... you'll never know the full demand... you could say the band could take pre orders but then what about all the people who aren't part of the ten club, who just show up to the concert and walk past the merch tables and go "on hey cool poster, I am going to buy one"... so if you only print enough for those who pre ordered them, the band misses out on possible sales from any one who didn't pre order and the fan who didn't know they had to pre order one misses out... and the pre order would most likely be done without getting to see the poster first hand, so if you pre-ordered and got a design you truly did not like, you'd be mad you paid for it.
if you print say 10,000... what if the design doesn't resonate with people and they don't sell well, then you are stuck with and paid for posters you can't sell. There's stacks of old posters that didn't sell well at the ten club warehouse, same for all bands who make posters as merch... most certainly stacks of old posters that didn't sell well in phish's warehouse or dmb's warehouse
if you charge more, you might price out flippers but then you also price out everyone else... I know this first hand as this is what I did with the 2005 South America poster... I made them $300 to deter flippers, and I deterred regular people too.. for years... then I had posters that were not selling and later I'd drop the price of that poster twice throughout the years just to try and get them out of my flat files.
the posters are a crap shoot... you never know exactly how they will sell... I was super stoked on my 3 2022 poster set, very proud of the illustrations and couldn't wait for the fans to see them... I still have a stack of Werchter and Amsterdam posters... I've had PJ posters not sell out before, but not to the level those two posters did not sell out. You just never know... so how do you plan in advance for an unknown outcome? Jeff is an artist and likes all kinds of different art and artists, he might love what an artist submits for their design and think it is killer, doesn't mean you all will...
art is subjective right... we all have our own tastes... so you just don't know what the demand will be... you don't know who will impulsively buy the poster upon walking past it at the show.
Every pj poster sale I am never entirely sure how it will go... I see these other new artists come in and charge more and they sell all their prints, so I think I should raise my prices... I raise a price of a poster and it doesn't sell as well... so next sale I think "I over charged and left money on the table", so the sale after that one I undercharge and it sells out immediately and I think "I charged too little and left money on the table"... the napa poster for example, other artists were charging $120.. I charged $100... sold out in a minute...and I thought I shoulda sold them for $120.. I could have charged $150 and I am pretty sure they would still have sold out just as quick... if I had charged $150 that would have made me 10k more (before taxes) and as a feast or famine starving artist that's a lot to leave on the table and to not have to pay my mortgage and buy food and pay bills for a few more months... point being every pj poster I do I am never 100% sure how you all will respond... I have designs I have done for pj and other bands that I think are the best thing I have ever done... and they don't sell well... sometimes I think i have my finger on the pulse of the pj poster fan / collector community and sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong....
it's all a crap shoot... unless the design is right out the gate stunning and mind blowing and done by a big name artist, you just don't know how people are going to react
as I mentioned, there is no solution, solutions have been tried and people get around the solutions... it's greed and making a quick buck, so until we fix that aspect of human nature, it's never going away.
While I have never and would never flipped merch or invested in art with the objective of making a profit, I have a hard time vilifying those who do (as long as they are operating within the law, paying taxes on their profits, and following the same rules as everyone else). Someone who can identify an undervalued company/stock is a genius and as a result turn a profit is a smart investor, but someone who does the same with art is a villain? Doesn’t sit right with me. I think the emotional nature of art & fandom and the relationship to the music make this very complicated (everyone - for the most part - can access PJ’s music (recorded anyway) as equals, but we can’t all have posters…how is that fair?? (rhetorical question to be clear))
Your stock analogy I don't think is a fair comparison, and I am no stock trader, but as far as I am aware you purchasing a stock is not making it so someone else cannot purchase the same stock, and then you are not reselling that stock to the person who was unable to get it.
A more accurate analogy to art collecting and stock trading would be investing in an undervalued company/stock (you don't invest in the undervalued company then sell it right away, you have to wait for the undervalued company to grow) and sitting on it for years until a decade or three later that stock has become more valuable and you sell the stock and make a profit... people invest in art like this all the time, you buy art you like or know will have value later, then 5, 10, 50 years later you could have a million dollar painting. Investing in art or stocks I don't see as being equivalent to buying something knowing you can sell it to the people in line behind you who missed out on buying it because you bought multiples to resell. If you bought an undervalued stock then resold it immediately, you would not be considered a genius, you'd be considered an impatient fool.
as far as fairness... if you went to a pearl jam concert and went to the concessions and they sold out of the beer you like, and everyone else got the beer you like, you could say "that's not fair"... but you'd probably realize sometimes things run out before you are able to buy them if they are in a limited quantity and lots of people in the same place you do like the same beer you do, gnome sayin... nothing in this life on this rock hurtling through the vast cosmos is fair.. fairness is something we as a species try and cultivate and grant towards one another but life is not fair.. ask the gazelle running from the lion who can't run as fast as the others because they were born with slightly shorter legs about fairness! ask the person who doesn't get the poster but the flipper does... ask the artist who omakes $100 per poster and even keeps the price down a little cause they are thinking about the customer while the flipper makes $400 who is thinking about how they can milk more money out of the customer... fairness is a gift we offer one another and everyone gives differently
I need to learn to be more concise!
1. Regarding the stock analogy, there is a finite amount of stock - if no one is selling, there is none to buy. If everyone who owns it hoards it no matter the price, no one else can get it. The distinction is that few view stock as collectable (ie worthy of holding for reasons beyond intrinsic value), so stock is always for sale for the right price. The value of collectability is non-zero, however, in case of the posters (alternatively no sane person collects stock in a company for the sake of collecting it). In fact, it probably correlates with wealth - ie a rich person may know a poster has the same intrinsic value as someone else does (they both know it is ink/paint/whatever on paper), but the rich person assigns different monetary value to hanging it on their wall. A rich person (or anyone else), however, does not assign value to a stock simply because they own it or can own it.2. How long should someone have to hold art (say your art) before they can materially profit from it? 5 hours, 5 years, 5 decades? Those who can hold it for 50 years until it may or may not be a million dollar painting may be in the fortunate position of not needing to realize their return simply because they have other means of putting food on the table. Should they be able to hold on to the same investment when someone with lesser means must sell to maintain their livelihood?Again, thank you for the dialogue. I say this as someone who did not attempt to buy your AP or standard poster for the Napa show - despite how rad it is, little value for me, sentimental or otherwise - as I did not attend in person.
2. the issue with flipping is the flipper is not buying the art as an investment that will accrue value over time, they are selling it immediately after they purchase it,.. it is not the same as investing in art... it's a quick buck turnaround.... and as stated, there's no crime there, they have every right to do that.... but let's not compare that practice to a person who is buying art as an investment... the flipper could care less if they were flipping a work of art or any good, all they care about is acquiring things that are limited in quantity that they know they can quickly resell to the people behind them who were unable to get the item because the flipper got there before them... be it beanie babies or any limited collectible or item, the flipper has zero interest in what the item is, only that it is limited and lots of people will want it and they can make a few bucks...
people who flip houses, do all this work fixing up the house, they invest money and blood sweat and tears renovating a home to resell.. they spend months working and earn every penny they making flipping that house.
flippers of collectibles just buy a thing then turn around to the people in line behind them and up charge them
if someone wants to resell something they own, they have every right, and they can sell it immediately if they so choose,... it just shitty selfish greed bad form when you buy something you have no desire to own specifically knowing you are taking that thing away from those who want them so you can resell it for more to the same people you took the opportunity away from. If an artist or business is selling something that is limited and says "one per customer" and you go out of your way to figure out ways to get more then your share and cause others to miss out because of your greed, then you're kinda just a selfish dick. And there's no crime or illegality in being a selfish dick, the world is run by them... but we can all see when someone is being a greedy selfish dick and generally we all agree that greed and selfishness are problems in our world. I mean even across human civilization, and in the religions of the world, greed and gluttony are called out specifically as what christianity calls "deadly sins". So we as a species agree, greed and gluttony are things we should try and avoid... and there's that whole compassion and empathy thing too where you think about people other then yourself.
As I mentioned before, it's no different then if you did this with anything, with any item... if you are going out of your way to buy things you don't like and don't want knowing you can then exploit the people who do like it and do want it... I don't see that as "investing in art" I see it as hustling people out of their money.
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posters are not like food and toilet paper... we don't need posters...on2legs said:I think the ethics of buying a poster for the purpose of selling it for a profit is a topic that you provided a lot of insight to today from the artists point of view. It was a really good conversation. But I’m going to disagree with the food bank analogy. Posters aren’t a necessity like food and toilet paper.
but buying food or a poster or toilet paper, or anything there might be a limit on knowing lots of people are looking for the same item and you buy more then your share to resell at a higher prices...... it's the same exact practice
the practice of buying more then your share, more then you need, with the intention to resell it at higher price to those you know know will be forced to pay your prices because the item was limited
you don't need a poster to survive, so sure it's not as awful as hoarding food bank food and reselling it to the people in line behind you... but the practice is exact same thing.
people bought more toilet paper then they needed during covid, knowing it would be sought after and they could make a profit.... how is that any different then people knowing a poster will be sought after and buying more then they need because they know they can make a profit?0 -
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
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Unionizeshecky said:
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...0 -
crazy innit.... even crazier, is as I mentioned before, sometime you ask for like 40 posters as compensation and a merch company won't even do that... and it costs them like 500-700 bucks to print 40 posters and send them to you... so not only will they not pay you upfront, they think you being able to sell 40 posters is too much of payment for you.... i had one merch company say "yeah but if i give you 100 posters and you sell them for $30 a piece, you'd make $3000!!" as if that was too much to get paid for the work being done, and the merch company wouldn't even be the ones paying it, they just didn't like the idea of an artist making $3000 for weeks of work,... they want weeks of work but don't want to pay for weeks of work and then for some reason don't want you to make more then they think you should get paid from customers buying your printsshecky said:
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
and that has been pretty consistent during the 20 years I've made posters.... so even if you establish yourself as a name in the poster design world, and bands / merch companies know your work and seek you out, they still offer you peanuts and if you ask for slightly more or wha t the work is worth, then you are "difficult to work with"... so the poster artists almost always gets screwed, simply by just trying to get fair compensation for the work bands and merch companies want.
what's even more nuts with this weird niche career, you can get hired by a well known touring band to do say a diptych for a run of two nights... spend months on it, keep the band / merch company up to date with process shots as you progress... then upon delivering the poster you were hired to do and signed their contract which has no clause regarding terminating finished work upon delivery, and agreed that you would be compensated in posters, which if you sold them all would have made you 10-12k and spent 6+ weeks working on, they can go "we decided to 'pivot' a different direction"... and then they give you a $1000 kill fee.... so they break their own contract of hiring you, and ignore that there is no language or clause about payment for killing a job upon delivery of final work, then upon delivery say they don't want what they hired you to do and approved along the way, then rug pull your sales out from under you and toss you $1000 as if that is fair compensation... then when you diplomatically and professionally remind them of their own contract and what they agreed to and how this is bad business and bad form, you are then labeled as "difficult to work with" and don't get jobs with that band again. And I hate to be agist, but nowadays a lot of the time you are dealing with younger and younger people who have bad business and people skills who think because they work for such and such band they are a big deal and have power over you...which sadly, they do have power over you... so even when you are correct and in the right and stand up for yourself when you get screwed, you get more screwed and labeled as a problem.0 -
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping inSHZA said:
Unionizeshecky said:
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.0 -
I’ll never buy a poster with AI generated art. Period.0
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the sad part about AI art... midjourney... is one of the most amazing artists I have ever seen.... the software, not the people who type prompts and tell the software what to do... they are no different then clients who tell human artists what they want made. That's what clients hav been telling artists for forever "make me this piece of artwork, i want it to be traditional looking but cool, incorporate my love of nature, use purple cause I love purple, oh and i love anime so make it in an anime style"ZoSoTim said:I’ll never buy a poster with AI generated art. Period.
midjourney does the same thing human artists do, it looks at other art and cross references it (sometimes steals it, which human artists do too).. it's just AI software can look at ALL art in nano seconds, whereas the human artist has to go to museums and flip through books and consume art the human way and it takes years and years and lifetime of practice and study and honing your talents... AI can look at all art in the blink of a human eye and go "i took your few prompts and made something far beyond what you prompted me to make... you wanna see it in Art Deco...boom... art nouveau, here ya go... steam punk, bam... comic book illustration style, done... or how bout as an oil painting, here ya go "
it's insane... I naively never though computers would be able to make art... computers make amazing art.... and like human artists, they struggle with hands.. hands are tricky
the aspect about it that really bothers me is this talking point that Ai is just "another tool for artists"... it is not another tool, it is an artist... I can't go to Emek and say "Emek i need to do a poster for Pearl Jam, I want to make a panda bear riding an elephant through a river of colors in a surreal landscape... can you whip me up a few different compositions on that?" and then I take what Emek did, maybe change it a little or not at all and go "I made this!"
but there are artists who use AI to create their composition for them, create their color scheme, and they they just recreate what Ai did for them... so you won't know if an artist's image was their own unique composition and color scheme and details or if they are just copying an AI generated image.... it's basically cheating and not having to pay another artist to do all your heavy lifting for you... and I've heard artists admit as much that they just use AI to get a general idea for their composition, but they then make their own image based off that.... then you didn't come up with your composition did you.... you had slave machine labor do it for you for free.
man i sure get sucked into these conversations!! Okay back outside again, away from the machine!!
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Good points. I'm not an expert on union dynamics by any means. Seems that it would only work if everyone on the labor side is willing to "buy in" for the greater good. In the music industry, with the "management side" being dispersed over many different bands it may be difficult to buy in.bradklausen said:
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping inSHZA said:
Unionizeshecky said:
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
In my experience, fair pay comes when the employee has some leverage. Otherwise, most businesses will pay the minimum they can get away with. There are exceptions of course, but few and far between.0 -
Couldn't agree more. So many artists are already being ripped off. Thousands of images go into the generator to make "art". Beyond lame.ZoSoTim said:I’ll never buy a poster with AI generated art. Period.0 -
not only will they pay the minimum they can get away with, they will fight and will lobby congress to not raise minimum wage.SHZA said:
Good points. I'm not an expert on union dynamics by any means. Seems that it would only work if everyone on the labor side is willing to "buy in" for the greater good. In the music industry, with the "management side" being dispersed over many different bands it may be difficult to buy in.bradklausen said:
then they can either just use non union artists who work for free or way less, or use AI... which is already creeping inSHZA said:
Unionizeshecky said:
Thanks for your responses to our questions and comments, Brad. It's very interesting to hear an artist's point of view on these topics. I think the biggest issue that needs to be solved, even more so than "flipping", is how to ensure the artist a more stable and dependable income. The fact that the bands don't pay you upfront for your work, at least partially, seems like an unfair business practice. I imagine an artist spends as many hours of work on a poster that "hits" with the fans as on a poster that doesn't. And to essentially not get paid for a less popular poster doesn't seem right. I wish I knew the solution.bradklausen said:
subs always seem stressful to me... and I never know how much work i will have in year... I don't know what work I will have this fall yet. Maybe i could pad that out with small art prints, but doing a sub always seemed daunting for some reason to me.... but in this era of things like Patreon, maybe it's not a terrible business model? I am not savvy when it comes to meshing art and commerce, I should be better at it after all these years, but the commerce / business side is just not intuitive and and I like getting paid as much as anyone else, but I am often amazed at how much I don't have this lil niche career / profession of my dialed in better for my own survival and prosperity!100 Pacer said:Brad have you considered an annual subscription based option now that the Shopify store affords you a more stable online presence? I still have your Judge art print and absolutely love it. Seeing as how you don’t need to offer it via a 3rd party if might be a feasible revenue stream? Here’s hoping.
I see some of my peers and am always like "damn, so and so has this niche job figured out and is killing it"... if I had kids I bet you'd see me hustling and doing way more then I do... but at 48 there is a midlife career crisis happening where I am haunted almost every day with "how you going to pay for the 2nd half of your life?!?!" So, who knows maybe some sort of sub or patreon type of thing is something I should ruminate on more...
I was told by someone in the merch world that they knew of a company feeding AI a band's catalog of past posters to teach AI how to make posters for that band.
if you stand up and demand to be treated fairly, there's always a line of artists behind you stoked for the opportunity who will work for much less, and will work for exposure and building their portfolio.. I was one of those artists when I was young and starting... such and such band contacts you and you go "OH MY GOD! I LOVE THAT BAND OF COURSE I WILL DO A POSTER FOR NOTHING!!" And companies know this... it's true in music, in sports, in movies and tv...
the solution would be just pay the artists fair compensation.. again it's the same with streaming services or record labels not paying the musicians fairly... to Shecky's point if two artists spend the same time working on their poster and one poster hits and the other doesn't... they are not paid the same amount for their time. You spend weeks on a poster, get 50 to sell, and then if it doesn't hit with people or a band's fan base just isn't that into posters, you sell 5 posters instead of 50 and make like $300 for weeks of work instead of $3000... and even $3000 probably works out to a poor hourly wage for weeks of time
I love getting to make posters, it's the reason i quit working as an employee for PJ, i wanted to spend all my time making posters and only posters.. I love getting to make art for my favorite bands, getting to tattoo a concert into rock and roll history and the history of a band, getting to listen to music and see what images it evokes in your mind and then trying to create them, getting to be inspired by music to make art for some of my favorite musicians of all time, getting to make a living drawing, getting to work in a field and medium full of some of the most talented artists around... and I bet most of my peers feel the same way, we love this.... it'd just be nice if getting fairly compensated for the time and energy wasn't always an uphill battle and was just fair.... but there's plenty of people in countless other professions who struggle with the exact same thing.
In my experience, fair pay comes when the employee has some leverage. Otherwise, most businesses will pay the minimum they can get away with. There are exceptions of course, but few and far between.
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You bring up some good points. I worked in the construction industry for decades and didn't have access to a phone or computer during the day. I am a huge collector and counted on someone buying 2 prints to resell one of them. Sure it wasn't the $40 merch tent score but if I could buy it for around $80 shipped to my house that was just fine. We went to the opening show in Vancouver - I really liked the print but there was zero way I was going to carry it around the venue for 3+ hours. Bought it from the 10 club when it went up but I would have gladly paid someone $80 on Ebay. That being said I do have an issue with the dude that bought a bunch of skateboards at the LA show and then went down the line to sell them at a higher price to folks. They need to have strict limits as to what you can buy. No more than 2 of anything and not one of each size of the same shirt. Seems pretty basic.SHZA said:Agree that flippers are parasitic scum, and the stock market and food bank are imperfect analogies. But flippers can be beneficial in some cases. For example, if you couldn't try for the AP drop because of work, or just didn't want to stand in a six hour merch line for a duffel bag or skate deck. If 100% of the items went to "fans" who have no interest in selling, you'd never be able to get the item.
The flipper didn't prevent me from getting the item if I wasn't even there to try for it. Assuming no flippers participated in the drop, there were surely enough "fans" going for it to sell out anyway.0
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