I have the same issue with DM and Running, Ed's voice. Not the way he sounds, but I just can't understand him and he seems drowned out. I don't know if that is production or what. But they have plenty of heavier songs where you can still clearly hear him sing. But here he just sounds more like backing vocals that you're supposed to karaoke too.
he sounds drowned out. he is so hard to hear and understand
Noblesville 5.7.2010. Lexington 4.26.2016. Nashville 9.16.2022. St Louis 9.18.2022. Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023. *Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted)
What's funny is that I actually love the production. That was my first reaction hearing Dark Matter. I've felt Ed's voice has been too high in the mix since Lightning Bolt and the instrumentation too low. To me, this feels like the mix is balanced perfectly where everything is working together rather than one part overshadowing the other parts.
I do admit that there's much more "production" though in terms of reverb, vocal effects, etc. But I actually like it. And I think the two songs so far are really well written. I get White Stripes feel with "Running." Fast, angry and loud. It totally sucks for those who aren't digging it. The hype of a new PJ album only to not love it would be such a let down. I really hope there will be some songs you'll love. Because there's nothing like hearing a new song by them that reminds you of how amazing they are.
Tinley Park, IL 08-02-1992 Chicago, IL 07-19-2013 Moline, IL 10-17-2014 Chicago, IL 08-20-2016 Chicago, IL 08-22-2016 Chicago, IL 08-18-2018 Chicago, IL 08-20-2018 St. Louis, MO 09-18-2022
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
I'm not familiar with production terms either. I've kind of wanted Rick Beato to do an episode on production, since he always mentioned it when something is well produced. But I was already thinking exactly what you said. I listened to some Vs and Vitalogy yesterday, you can hear mike and stone's guitars and the bass, you can hear ed's voice over them and understand what he's signing. Everything sounds like it was recorded separately and mixed correctly. To me, these last 2 songs sound closer to a bootleg recording out of the back alley again and its all just meshed together.
I like the vocal melody. And for such a short track it "feels" longer which is cool. During the Stone interview he mentions they recorded a drum loop for what Matt was doing when they made the song Dark Matter, so I thought maybe that's why the drum track sounded compressed, but after hearing Running I kinda hear the same thing so now am kinda worried that the whole album is gonna sound that way. I don't get it cause after all the talk about how bad ass Matt is on this record why would you make how they sound (how the drums sound, not how Matt is playing), uhh, not so great? The energy's great though and I think hearing this live will be awesome.
I just don’t get at all how a few are saying this is filler or B side material. I would be interested as to whether they feel this way about any songs from the last three records.
a 2:19 minute song is generally a filler or a b side, there is plenty of filler songs on the previous 3 albums but they don't get released as singles prior to an album release
Not saying I love the production, but I wonder what people are listening to the song on and how loud. Are people picking up (hearing) the vocal count in at the beginning?
I don't know any production terms either. But both these singles feel very rigid and you can almost see it being separate elements put together and tinkered with on a timeline by a producer. And crammed up/brickwalled... Like there is no feel of "room" or space. That is what I would consider "over produced" if anything.
Compared to how Riot Act breathes. Like it was recorded live, in a room and not created layer by later by a producer on a computer. And also not crammed up like a wall hitting you.
But I have had the same feeling from Backspacer and forward. Even the studio version of Just Breathe cut's into my ears like it's crammed up to peak. SO I GUESS IT'S JUST ME.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Nothing speaks to the glory of the internet as people attacking one another over their opinions on a song. This place continues to provide endless amounts of amusement for me and for that I thank you all.
+1. Superb reading.
I'm seriously think a "best of" book is in order. Working title: "Hurl Spam: The Best PJ Fan Forum Clashes Over Somebody's Opinion".
To be clear, I wasn't attacking anyone. I was just saying that I can't relate to making a definitive negative judgment about a song from a band you love, with a thirty-year track record that you presumably enjoy, in less than twelve hours. I wouldn't have any reaction to someone who said, "It hasn't really grabbed me yet, but time will tell."
As a non-native English speaker who basically understands the language though, I don't understand a word of what Eddie is singing. This choppy, fast vocal style, which has also been shown on Gigaton, and which seems to have made it its goal to fit in so many words per second as possible doesn't make things any better. Catchy melodies fall completely by the wayside as a result.
Don't feel too bad. The English speakers (if that's what you call a Philadelphian LOL) can't figure that out any better. Just go with it.
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Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
The unsettling feeling of being in a world in disarray. The feeling that you can never relax, because there's another pile of crap about to get dumped on you. You've got to stay on your toes at all times to keep from getting smothered by the crap.
Feels like we've heard this one before. Kinda cut from the same cloth as Supersonic or Superblood Wolfmoon and maybe a few others. And like Dark Matter, I can't understand a word he's saying. But, lot of energy and some cool guitars. Besides Lukin and throwaway stuff like Pry, To, is this the shortest PJ song?
When people say they can't understand a word he's saying, have they looked at the lyrics? Because once you've looked at the lyrics, it becomes fairly easy to understand what he's saying.
Compared to how Riot Act breathes. Like it was recorded live, in a room and not created layer by later by a producer on a computer. And also not crammed up like a wall hitting you.
My understanding based on the interviews is that this (the album, Dark Matter) was largely recorded as a band in a room, live.
I am a fan of Watt's production so far. It makes the songs more mysterious. It's a shame there's so much negativity.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But those albums don't sound alike at all. Vitalogy has a very low-fi sound. Vs. is very crisp. And both are departures from Ten, which is slick and overproduced.
Feels like we've heard this one before. Kinda cut from the same cloth as Supersonic or Superblood Wolfmoon and maybe a few others. And like Dark Matter, I can't understand a word he's saying. But, lot of energy and some cool guitars. Besides Lukin and throwaway stuff like Pry, To, is this the shortest PJ song?
When people say they can't understand a word he's saying, have they looked at the lyrics? Because once you've looked at the lyrics, it becomes fairly easy to understand what he's saying.
Haha. No, there's a few places where my mind has a hard time making the connection between the written words and the vocals. hah.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I am a fan of Watt's production so far. It makes the songs more mysterious. It's a shame there's so much negativity.
I’m trying to wait until I hear the album in my best listening environment before I have a firm take. I was worried about Watt, and I very much like the production on Giga, but I’m not having an issue with production thus far.
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But those albums don't sound alike at all. Vitalogy has a very low-fi sound. Vs. is very crisp. And both are departures from Ten, which is slick and overproduced.
I would not say Ten is overproduced. It's produced, with a clear sonic identity. But that production makes that album into what it is and the songs gel. And helped it be a hit for sure.
Don't see why it would be overproduced.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I will say this: I feel like there is a huge issue with how these songs are playing from Apple Music. I can’t speak for the other streaming sites, but if you don’t have the appropriate speakers/settings the song sounds COMPLETELY different than intended. Eddie is impossible to hear and buried way too deep in the mix.
I share this because some may not realize they’re facing the same issue with audio quality. Especially if you’re listening from your phone or something. Try to listen to the version from YouTube and see if it sounds any different for you.
Given that production seems to be such an issue to some people, I am glad Im naive to it all and it doesnt really bother me. If i like the sound of a song, lyrics, vocal delivery then great. Whether something is slightly higher or lower in the mix doesnt matter to me. I listen to more live stuff of Pearl Jam than studio anyway so its less about production and more whether I actually like the song
Compared to how Riot Act breathes. Like it was recorded live, in a room and not created layer by later by a producer on a computer. And also not crammed up like a wall hitting you.
My understanding based on the interviews is that this (the album, Dark Matter) was largely recorded as a band in a room, live.
Yes. I got that impression from Stone. But to me it doesn't feel like it. But that impression could be all just in my singular mind. I think it has to do with the crammed and wall-y sonics.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I don’t love the production but I can live with it. But that’s the trade off: the band has said how Watt inspired them during the writing, but he also has a polarizing mixing style. I think most of us are partial to BoB’s mixes but he’s also the one who thought a full band version of Sleeping By Myself was necessary.
So would you rather have a producer who coaxes better material but records it worse or vice versa? I’ve loved good songs with bad production. I’ve never seen good production save a bad song.
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But those albums don't sound alike at all. Vitalogy has a very low-fi sound. Vs. is very crisp. And both are departures from Ten, which is slick and overproduced.
I would not say Ten is overproduced. It's produced, with a clear sonic identity. But that production makes that album into what it is and the songs gel. And helped it be a hit for sure.
Don't see why it would be overproduced.
The band HAS said it’s overproduced. And then had BoB remix it, proving that they do indeed think so.
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But those albums don't sound alike at all. Vitalogy has a very low-fi sound. Vs. is very crisp. And both are departures from Ten, which is slick and overproduced.
I would not say Ten is overproduced. It's produced, with a clear sonic identity. But that production makes that album into what it is and the songs gel. And helped it be a hit for sure.
Don't see why it would be overproduced.
The band is on the record about it being overproduced. It's slathered in reverb, for one thing. They had Brendan O'Brien remix and remaster it for the box set because they thought it needed it.
EDIT: The always-wise kmcmanus beat me to this observation.
Watt has Charisma.....sounds like thats his IN with big acts...I too wasnt happy about the heavier songs on Earthling, tried to relisten last night......Power of Right/ Good & evil, like the songs but sound is Harsh
Can you explain by what you mean by harsh?
I guess I'm naive to a lot of the production chat but for me they are angry heavy songs so I'd expect a harsh sound
Muddled, no room to breathe, confined, abrasive
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But those albums don't sound alike at all. Vitalogy has a very low-fi sound. Vs. is very crisp. And both are departures from Ten, which is slick and overproduced.
I would not say Ten is overproduced. It's produced, with a clear sonic identity. But that production makes that album into what it is and the songs gel. And helped it be a hit for sure.
Don't see why it would be overproduced.
The band HAS said it’s overproduced. And then had BoB remix it, proving that they do indeed think so.
I don't care what they indeed think. Just like I don't care about George Lucas thinking CGI-effects all over 1977s Star Wars is correct. Whatever he HAS said.
Also, another thing - I think the band should have stood by the album and not tinker with it 20 years later and have another producer, BoB, remix it. Respect the producer and the piece of art that was made in a time and should be respected as part of it's time.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
For those struggling with the production: dumb it down for me, what is it you dont like? Is it stuff like Eds voice not loud enough, drums not clear etc?
Does that take away from the song for you? How do you feel at live shows where venues can affect the quality of sound?
the whole thing sounds like a wall of sound with a wrapper of overproduction on top of it muffling the actual song, if that makes sense. For me I think its mostly how the drums are mixed. It doesnt take away from the song for me though. I really like these songs and think they will be awesome live. Really loveeee the drumming on this album so far!
Not sure it does make sense. "wall of sound" - do you mean difficult to hear the individual instruments and all blended into one sound?
"Wrapper of overproduction" - Does this mean it sounds too clean, not like a band of guys playing live but direct input of instruments into the mix?
"how the drums are mixed" - what about it? Cant clearly hear them?
Sorry for all the question, i'm hearing a lot about production at the moment and not too clear what peoples issues are with it. The thing I found was difficult to pick out stuff like the bass and some drums, is that what you mean by 'wall of sound' maybe.
I’m right there with you on the production talk and I don’t think I want to get more of an understanding because then I may become nit picky too. I like what I like, I’m not a musician or a producer. If the band had an issue with it they would have told him to take a hike or go back to work.
I have the same issue with DM and Running, Ed's voice. Not the way he sounds, but I just can't understand him and he seems drowned out. I don't know if that is production or what. But they have plenty of heavier songs where you can still clearly hear him sing. But here he just sounds more like backing vocals that you're supposed to karaoke too.
he sounds drowned out. he is so hard to hear and understand
On my headphones, in the car, and on the computer he is front and center in both songs. On my echo studio which is supposedly atmos, he is way drowned out and barely audible on both songs.
Comments
Chicago 1 9.5.2023. Chicago 2 9.7.2023.
*Noblesville 9.10.2023* (Gutted)
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St. Louis, MO 09-18-2022
vs/vitalogy have heavy songs, they sound BALANCED....I guess where he has the guitars in the mix isnt appealing to my ears
But I was already thinking exactly what you said. I listened to some Vs and Vitalogy yesterday, you can hear mike and stone's guitars and the bass, you can hear ed's voice over them and understand what he's signing. Everything sounds like it was recorded separately and mixed correctly.
To me, these last 2 songs sound closer to a bootleg recording out of the back alley again and its all just meshed together.
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Compared to how Riot Act breathes. Like it was recorded live, in a room and not created layer by later by a producer on a computer. And also not crammed up like a wall hitting you.
Or Neil Youngs Broken Arrow which is the sound I wish one PJ album would get in the discography:
But I have had the same feeling from Backspacer and forward. Even the studio version of Just Breathe cut's into my ears like it's crammed up to peak. SO I GUESS IT'S JUST ME.
Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18;
Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18;
Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Don't see why it would be overproduced.
EDIT: The always-wise kmcmanus beat me to this observation.
Also, another thing - I think the band should have stood by the album and not tinker with it 20 years later and have another producer, BoB, remix it. Respect the producer and the piece of art that was made in a time and should be respected as part of it's time.