How has everyone done with seniority? Is it in alignment with what you thought?
Tough for me to compare as I had F2F tickets for Baltimore in 2020 and only one of my 2018 Fenway tickets were typical for my number, but I've seen some members with similar numbers to mine in the same area of Baltimore and others with higher numbers in "worse" seats, so I'd say that's probably accurate. Fenway seats are better (IMHO) than 2018, but about what I expected.
It's interesting that Fenway seats are better, especially as they added the big GA pit. I would think it would push good seats back further, but maybe not.
It's very difficult to make sense of the seating. My ticket buddy has a very low 10c number, in the 40,000's, and he didn't even get 1st side section in Portland. Which is odd. Previous to TM taking over the seniority seating, he was usually always in the 1st row in the first side section, except for hard shows, like MSG, Philly or Fenway. It's weird that it's in the second section over and a couple of rows up, as the 10c seating chart showed that there 10c seats available in the first section. But maybe it's only like 1 or 2 pairs that were available in the first section?
In my experience the first section closest to the stage is vips, friends and family. Maybe a few 10cers in there. But I go to shows in the northeast so who knows. Certainly 10C tix have been pushed back.
In 2016 I ended up pulling 10th row seats Stones side on the day of the show for Fenway night 1. There was no GA that year and I had Fan Club seats for night 2. I was trying to get a gauge on where my fan club seats might end up for night 2 so asked some people around me what there numbers were. No one knew what I was talking about, cause they were all VIP tix. I just happened to grab some from some VIP that couldn’t make it I guess that got released back. There were several empty seats in that area and was surprised that there were that many VIP.
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
Post edited by mpedone on
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 |
Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him. He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
How has everyone done with seniority? Is it in alignment with what you thought?
In Manchester UK I got Row 14 (1st row due to floor standing) Block 111 which is the last block furthest from stage on Stone’s side.
I have friends who got Block 102 and 103 which are the closest blocks on Mike’s side.
My membership started in 2003. Theirs in 2006 and 2010….
I am thinking TM will say you’re in the first row of the block. But seriously, in PJ Premium the front blocks are £50 - £70 more than block 111.
No reply from 10c to my asking how this can be. After 20 plus years - Nice service !! 10c has been faultless with their help and approach forever in my opinion, but so far this time , not so much.. they’re busy I’m sure.
This is a bigger problem to me than the change in the lottery.
When you join the club, the site states: "Ten Club holds the best tickets in the house for members-only presale opportunities..."
However, the current ticket policy reads (emphasis mine): "We reserve some of the best seats in the house for Ten Club tickets."
Of course, as noted above, the ticket policy also states: " Rules may change slightly from tour to
tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for
any changes to the policies listed below."
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 |
Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him. He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
What would I have done differently? Since I live in a high demand market, I would’ve maximized my lottery, and rely less on the fan to fan face value process. This is a significant change in the process, significantly decreases odds to winning single shows in high demand markets.
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
What would I have done differently? Since I live in a high demand market, I would’ve maximized my lottery, and rely less on the fan to fan face value process. This is a significant change in the process, significantly decreases odds to winning single shows in high demand markets.
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
My comment is not trying to pretend anything. It is a slight change in the rules. It just happens to have a bigger impact, maybe even bigger than expected. I agree that priority is a better system. I've never disagreed. I've made arguments that this club has changed, that the band/club keeps saying it values its fans, but it feels more and more like lip service than reality.
How would you have "maximized your lottery"? Going for 10 shows? That wouldn't have increased your chances of getting MSG or Philly, just of getting ANYTHING rather than shutout. If you were willing to go through F2F for other shows, I don't know why you wouldn't just put in for them to begin with. It's not like just putting in for MSG in the priority system improved your odds.
Again, I would argue they didn't see this as a "significant" change. There is also plenty of language in the announcement indicating the change (if not explicitly). Honestly, I think most of us - even the ones pounding the "read the announcement" drum the loudest - just assumed this would work one way and didn't give a second thought to the fact that the announcement indicated something else.
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 |
Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him. He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
What would I have done differently? Since I live in a high demand market, I would’ve maximized my lottery, and rely less on the fan to fan face value process. This is a significant change in the process, significantly decreases odds to winning single shows in high demand markets.
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
My comment is not trying to pretend anything. It is a slight change in the rules. It just happens to have a bigger impact, maybe even bigger than expected. I agree that priority is a better system. I've never disagreed. I've made arguments that this club has changed, that the band/club keeps saying it values its fans, but it feels more and more like lip service than reality.
How would you have "maximized your lottery"? Going for 10 shows? That wouldn't have increased your chances of getting MSG or Philly, just of getting ANYTHING rather than shutout. If you were willing to go through F2F for other shows, I don't know why you wouldn't just put in for them to begin with. It's not like just putting in for MSG in the priority system improved your odds.
Again, I would argue they didn't see this as a "significant" change. There is also plenty of language in the announcement indicating the change (if not explicitly). Honestly, I think most of us - even the ones pounding the "read the announcement" drum the loudest - just assumed this would work one way and didn't give a second thought to the fact that the announcement indicated something else.
If I knew odds for an in demand show are likely to drop significantly based on a change in draw process that would have changed the way I thought about the process while choosing shows. You’ll need to trust me on that because it’s the truth.
We do not know if this is what they did, but if so, we will need to disagree. And it doesn’t matter what I would do, I am a paying customer and deserve to know what I am buying every year. If they disclose the process, that gives me the right to cancel, if I do not like what I am purchasing, if I deem the lottery process to be unfair.
to me, changing lottery rules from one set that maximizes numbers of winners to a lottery that minimizes number of winning members is about as significant as any change possible to the lottery.
to constantly change the rules every tour is bad policy. And the sad thing is, they could have one person spend thirty minutes posting the lottery process, minimal effort from the club. The club pulls in millions, and one person can’t spend a few minutes telling us what we are buying?
How has everyone done with seniority? Is it in alignment with what you thought?
Tough for me to compare as I had F2F tickets for Baltimore in 2020 and only one of my 2018 Fenway tickets were typical for my number, but I've seen some members with similar numbers to mine in the same area of Baltimore and others with higher numbers in "worse" seats, so I'd say that's probably accurate. Fenway seats are better (IMHO) than 2018, but about what I expected.
It's interesting that Fenway seats are better, especially as they added the big GA pit. I would think it would push good seats back further, but maybe not.
It's very difficult to make sense of the seating. My ticket buddy has a very low 10c number, in the 40,000's, and he didn't even get 1st side section in Portland. Which is odd. Previous to TM taking over the seniority seating, he was usually always in the 1st row in the first side section, except for hard shows, like MSG, Philly or Fenway. It's weird that it's in the second section over and a couple of rows up, as the 10c seating chart showed that there 10c seats available in the first section. But maybe it's only like 1 or 2 pairs that were available in the first section?
In my experience the first section closest to the stage is vips, friends and family. Maybe a few 10cers in there. But I go to shows in the northeast so who knows. Certainly 10C tix have been pushed back.
My number is 93xxx. I have sat there every show I’ve been to since 2013.
How has everyone done with seniority? Is it in alignment with what you thought?
Tough for me to compare as I had F2F tickets for Baltimore in 2020 and only one of my 2018 Fenway tickets were typical for my number, but I've seen some members with similar numbers to mine in the same area of Baltimore and others with higher numbers in "worse" seats, so I'd say that's probably accurate. Fenway seats are better (IMHO) than 2018, but about what I expected.
It's interesting that Fenway seats are better, especially as they added the big GA pit. I would think it would push good seats back further, but maybe not.
It's very difficult to make sense of the seating. My ticket buddy has a very low 10c number, in the 40,000's, and he didn't even get 1st side section in Portland. Which is odd. Previous to TM taking over the seniority seating, he was usually always in the 1st row in the first side section, except for hard shows, like MSG, Philly or Fenway. It's weird that it's in the second section over and a couple of rows up, as the 10c seating chart showed that there 10c seats available in the first section. But maybe it's only like 1 or 2 pairs that were available in the first section?
In my experience the first section closest to the stage is vips, friends and family. Maybe a few 10cers in there. But I go to shows in the northeast so who knows. Certainly 10C tix have been pushed back.
My number is 93xxx. I have sat there every show I’ve been to since 2013.
And I'm in the 70xxx range. Every show I've had seated tickets for in the GA era, they were in the first section closest to the stage on either side. Including in LA where there were often many friends and guests in the same section. Incidentally, that is also the case this year except in LA where we knew in advance that the 10C didn't have the prime sides.
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
What would I have done differently? Since I live in a high demand market, I would’ve maximized my lottery, and rely less on the fan to fan face value process. This is a significant change in the process, significantly decreases odds to winning single shows in high demand markets.
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
My comment is not trying to pretend anything. It is a slight change in the rules. It just happens to have a bigger impact, maybe even bigger than expected. I agree that priority is a better system. I've never disagreed. I've made arguments that this club has changed, that the band/club keeps saying it values its fans, but it feels more and more like lip service than reality.
How would you have "maximized your lottery"? Going for 10 shows? That wouldn't have increased your chances of getting MSG or Philly, just of getting ANYTHING rather than shutout. If you were willing to go through F2F for other shows, I don't know why you wouldn't just put in for them to begin with. It's not like just putting in for MSG in the priority system improved your odds.
Again, I would argue they didn't see this as a "significant" change. There is also plenty of language in the announcement indicating the change (if not explicitly). Honestly, I think most of us - even the ones pounding the "read the announcement" drum the loudest - just assumed this would work one way and didn't give a second thought to the fact that the announcement indicated something else.
If I knew odds for an in demand show are likely to drop significantly based on a change in draw process that would have changed the way I thought about the process while choosing shows. You’ll need to trust me on that because it’s the truth.
We do not know if this is what they did, but if so, we will need to disagree. And it doesn’t matter what I would do, I am a paying customer and deserve to know what I am buying every year. If they disclose the process, that gives me the right to cancel, if I do not like what I am purchasing, if I deem the lottery process to be unfair.
to me, changing lottery rules from one set that maximizes numbers of winners to a lottery that minimizes number of winning members is about as significant as any change possible to the lottery.
to constantly change the rules every tour is bad policy. And the sad thing is, they could have one person spend thirty minutes posting the lottery process, minimal effort from the club. The club pulls in millions, and one person can’t spend a few minutes telling us what we are buying?
You all are still arguing odds? Seriously? I thought it was pretty clear that this lottery didn't work the way we all assumed it would.
It actually worked out a bit better than I thought it would actually after last year lol.
We have time for a redraw, don't get complacent
I think you’re joking, but I doubt they’re going to have a redraw, as it would be difficult to prove a bad lottery here. When they had the seniority problem last year, that’s easy to prove without investigating what TM did. Members could compare results and it became obvious something was amiss. All we can say here is allegedly twenty or thirty or how many fans hit a PJ Quadrella when probability says it should be one in five or ten thousand. Can’t prove it and I doubt TM is admitting anything. In this case , it “seems” there is a chance that the same or very similar random number generator result was used for different shows.
it’s funny to the many here that try to make the point, hey just because one draw is independent of the other it’s very easy to get lucky twice. The truth is the randomness should make it much more difficult.
more importantly, is there a verified fan thread, when is that email coming out, tonight right? Can’t wait for that rejection, as the odds for an msg code must be way worse than winning the fan club lottery for MSG, helloooo stub hub.
Again, how is this a "bad draw"? Isn't it more likely that it's just a methodology we weren't expecting and don't like?
The methodology is a random sample draw. If odds are 10% for each of the very difficult Northeast shows to obtain, hitting four of these shows is one in 10,000. So if the fan club gets allocated 10,000 seats per show, one fan should have won four shows, no more. It's as simple as that
We ASSUME the methodology is a random sample draw. Nowhere in the instructions does it specify how tickets would be drawn. Folks have suggested other methodologies TM may have used that would fit the reported patterns without glitches or broken code or any need for invalidation/redraws.
If it's not completely random then that's something they need to disclose. They would be off the charts worse organization than take a master. That would be nasty to not be a random draw and not tell people what they're doing so they can try to make the best moves that they can possibly make
First, let's clarify. We assume that the draw will be done show-by-show, picking completely randomly from the members who put in request for that show.
However, what if it worked like this: We submit our request (said request being a list of all the shows we would like to purchase tickets for and our price tier preferences). Ticketmaster completely randomly draws members and fulfills as much of what is available for that request.
That is still "completely random", just not in the way we all assumed it would be.
Here's the wording from Ten Club's instructions:
"Step 3. Complete the ticket request form, including selecting the
date(s), the number of tickets you are requesting, and ticket type
preference.
Step 4. Once you’ve completed the form you
will be immediately directed to your Request Summary Page. You will also
receive an email acknowledging your ticket request, as well as
important rules and details on what to expect next.
Once the ticket request window has officially closed, no edits can be made.
TICKET CONFIRMATIONS
Ticket requests will be confirmed following the below schedule:
...
If your request is confirmed, you will receive an email with your
payment summary and details on upcoming ticket delivery. You will also
be notified via email if your request is not confirmed."
And, from the Ticketmaster blog:
"What is Ticketmaster Request?
Pearl Jam is using Ticketmaster Request to power this fan club
presale. Ticketmaster Request is a simple way to request tickets to
popular shows, so you don’t have to compete in a first-come,
first-served sale. You can take your time to review the available
options and request the right tickets for you. All you need to do is
tell us which show(s) you’re interested in, the type of ticket you want
and your payment details. If tickets that match your request are
available, your card will be charged, and we’ll email you instructions
on how to view them. Note: each show you are confirmed for will be
charged separately by Ticketmaster; the charge will appear as
Ticketmaster*Pearl Jam."
"How does the Ten Club ticket request work?
Complete your request in three easy steps. First, tell us what shows
and tickets you’re interested in. Then, provide a credit card to
complete your ticket request. If your request is fulfilled, your card
will be charged and we’ll email you a confirmation with instructions on
how to view your tickets during the week of February 19. Note: tickets
will not show in your Ticketmaster account until all seating assignments
are finalized."
"Can I request tickets for more than one city?
Yes. By submitting a ticket request for any show, you are committing
to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled. For example,
if you enter for five shows, it is possible your request can be
fulfilled for all five shows in which case your credit card will
immediately be charged for tickets to all five shows. However, you can
only purchase up to two Ten Club tickets for each individual show. All
tickets will be non-transferable in all states except where it is
prohibited by law."
"How will tickets be determined for Ten Club members?
To level the playing field, ticket requests are fulfilled in a
randomized selection process. If selected for seated tickets, tickets
will be assigned based on Ten Club seniority within the purchased price
level."
Note how both keep referencing your "request" in the singular. Nothing about individual shows. Both are clear that you are "committing to purchase the ticket(s) should your request be fulfilled". I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems pretty clear to me that they selected members at random and fulfilled their entire requests (as possible). Thus, some people going x-for-x and others going 0-for-x. Still random, just not drawn the way we expected. Not the "best" system, but still a valid way to perform the lottery.
Your comment is very insightful, but I completely disagree that this would be “valid” in any manner of what this club is supposed to represent.
By “removing confusion” that priority rankings created, TM would have completely changed the rules of the lottery and I doubt the band would support this winner take all policy.
You are correct this is entirely possible. If so, it’s move number ten thousand and ten of horrific Pearl Jam ticketing decisions, because if I understand your comment… let’s say for US shows only, it’s possible that ten thousand ten c members can win every single show, and everyone else gets zilch. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of what the bands objective is supposed to be.
If this is what TM did, someone needs to tell the band. Because if removing priority rankings led to this potential horrific policy, it’s completely outside the spirit of this club, outside the spirit of a lottery, and completely outside the bounds of any fairness whatsoever.
edit, and they would be in complete violation of the rule that they determined a random draw to “level the playing field.” The process you and others are describing would be a material and undisclosed change to their historical process, and anyone familiar (employees and their families, friends, acquaintances, etc.) with the “Ticketmaster Request” process would have a significant and unfair advantage.
that said, there is no other way to explain how so many fans hit a ten thousand to one trifecta. The band or their management needs to explain how this draw worked and how so many fans seemingly defied the odds by scoring so many low odds tickets.
Guess what? The rules have changed. Pretty easy to do, since I don't think they were ever in writing anywhere. It's also their club, and their rules. We always talk about getting tickets to as many fans as possible, but the language the Ten Club uses is simply getting as many tickets to the Fan Club with no mention of the distribution. By the way, I agree that the club SHOULD be about getting the most number of members into shows, not just selling their allotment, and that this was a shitty change. EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
That said, I'm not sure how this method is not valid. Setting aside the "spirit" of the Ten Club tickets, was it not randomly drawn? I don't believe that preference was given to people selecting more shows (I requested 3 and got them all, as opposed to people who requested more and got fewer). I don't believe that preference was given to higher membership numbers (note the number of members complaining that their seats are in row 5 of the sections closest to the stage as opposed to row 2). It certainly didn't take into account seniority or when you submitted your request. If you can find good evidence that the system gave preference to anyone in drawing the numbers, then you can make a case as to it's invalidity (and you should).
So, how would knowledge give anyone an advantage? Was there a way to "game" this system? What would you do differently if you could go back and re-submit your request, knowing that the system will draw members at random and grant them their entire request?
What would I have done differently? Since I live in a high demand market, I would’ve maximized my lottery, and rely less on the fan to fan face value process. This is a significant change in the process, significantly decreases odds to winning single shows in high demand markets.
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
My comment is not trying to pretend anything. It is a slight change in the rules. It just happens to have a bigger impact, maybe even bigger than expected. I agree that priority is a better system. I've never disagreed. I've made arguments that this club has changed, that the band/club keeps saying it values its fans, but it feels more and more like lip service than reality.
How would you have "maximized your lottery"? Going for 10 shows? That wouldn't have increased your chances of getting MSG or Philly, just of getting ANYTHING rather than shutout. If you were willing to go through F2F for other shows, I don't know why you wouldn't just put in for them to begin with. It's not like just putting in for MSG in the priority system improved your odds.
Again, I would argue they didn't see this as a "significant" change. There is also plenty of language in the announcement indicating the change (if not explicitly). Honestly, I think most of us - even the ones pounding the "read the announcement" drum the loudest - just assumed this would work one way and didn't give a second thought to the fact that the announcement indicated something else.
If I knew odds for an in demand show are likely to drop significantly based on a change in draw process that would have changed the way I thought about the process while choosing shows. You’ll need to trust me on that because it’s the truth.
We do not know if this is what they did, but if so, we will need to disagree. And it doesn’t matter what I would do, I am a paying customer and deserve to know what I am buying every year. If they disclose the process, that gives me the right to cancel, if I do not like what I am purchasing, if I deem the lottery process to be unfair.
to me, changing lottery rules from one set that maximizes numbers of winners to a lottery that minimizes number of winning members is about as significant as any change possible to the lottery.
to constantly change the rules every tour is bad policy. And the sad thing is, they could have one person spend thirty minutes posting the lottery process, minimal effort from the club. The club pulls in millions, and one person can’t spend a few minutes telling us what we are buying?
I am just curious as to how your strategy would have changed had you known that what people were predicting before the lottery would actually happen. What would you have done differently had they informed us there would be no priority and that the entire requests would be fulfilled if you were drawn?
"I'm a lucky man, to count on both hands the [shows I've done]. Some folks just have one, others they got none..."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 |
Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him. He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
How has everyone done with seniority? Is it in alignment with what you thought?
In Manchester UK I got Row 14 (1st row due to floor standing) Block 111 which is the last block furthest from stage on Stone’s side.
I have friends who got Block 102 and 103 which are the closest blocks on Mike’s side.
My membership started in 2003. Theirs in 2006 and 2010….
I am thinking TM will say you’re in the first row of the block. But seriously, in PJ Premium the front blocks are £50 - £70 more than block 111.
No reply from 10c to my asking how this can be. After 20 plus years - Nice service !! 10c has been faultless with their help and approach forever in my opinion, but so far this time , not so much.. they’re busy I’m sure.
This is a bigger problem to me than the change in the lottery.
When you join the club, the site states: "Ten Club holds the best tickets in the house for members-only presale opportunities..."
However, the current ticket policy reads (emphasis mine): "We reserve some of the best seats in the house for Ten Club tickets."
Of course, as noted above, the ticket policy also states: " Rules may change slightly from tour to
tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for
any changes to the policies listed below."
Yes same for me. I get the price increase and have no big problem with it. But I’d rather pay £240 a ticket for the block I used to get than run the risk of non transferable ticket from 10c that is in the BACK BLOCK on the side!!! Plus still no reply from 10c. It actually is really saddening that they are not even replying to me. Kind of turns my stomach. Probably I need PJ too much !!!!
Comments
EDIT: Per the official ticket policy: " Rules may change slightly from tour to tour, so please be sure to read the complete presale announcement for any changes to the policies listed below." The rule as listed in said policy is, "Presale tickets are offered through a random ticket selection process." To me, that is open to interpretation, but I can see how we would read it as each ticket is a separate random drawing. However, they also allow for the rules to change, and the 2024 announcement doesn't have this language, it refers to your "request" being picked randomly. Again, I don't agree with the change.
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
your comment is trying to pretend this is a slight change in the rules.
Have they done one draw per member that’s maximizing the opportunity for fans to go five for five or 10 for 10, in all potential analysis, this is a significant change in the process. Going 10 for 10 based on one good draw maximize the chances that people will win 10 shows and significantly reduces the supply for everyone else. Let me say that again. This is not a slight change in the rules. This is a significant change in the process, rewarding, fewer, and fewer fans, which is supposed to be the exact opposite of how this club works. And significantly reducing odds to large market shows
Since we pay membership fees, every year, we are not just idle customers like Ticketmaster customers. We pay dues every year to be part of this process. if they are going to make significant changes to how the draw works, that should be disclosed to members of the fan club. And we can then decide whether we want to pay for this club membership. Without that information, they are charging us for something and we do not know what we are buying. That would be borderline BBB complaint territory.
Again, I would argue they didn't see this as a "significant" change. There is also plenty of language in the announcement indicating the change (if not explicitly). Honestly, I think most of us - even the ones pounding the "read the announcement" drum the loudest - just assumed this would work one way and didn't give a second thought to the fact that the announcement indicated something else.
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."
to me, changing lottery rules from one set that maximizes numbers of winners to a lottery that minimizes number of winning members is about as significant as any change possible to the lottery.
to constantly change the rules every tour is bad policy. And the sad thing is, they could have one person spend thirty minutes posting the lottery process, minimal effort from the club. The club pulls in millions, and one person can’t spend a few minutes telling us what we are buying?
Hartford 10.02.96 | Mansfield 2 09.16.98 | Mansfield 1 08.29.00 | Mansfield 1 07.02.03 | Mansfield 3 07.11.03 | Boston 2 05.25.06 | Tampa 04.11.16 | Fenway 1 08.05.16 | Fenway 2 08.07.16 | Fenway 1 09.02.18 | Fenway 2 09.04.18 | Baltimore 03.28.20 | Hamilton 09.06.22 | Toronto 09.08.22 | Nashville 09.16.22 | St Louis 09.18.22
"He made the deal with the devil, we get to play with him.
He goes to hell, of course. We're going to heaven."