Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't confirmation emails in the past included language about when we would hear back about claiming our tickets? Usually something like "during the week of blah blah blah?"
I think you're right. I find it a bit annoying I have to go "claim" something I already paid for.
How is it different than when we had to "claim" them at the box office on the day of the show other than you get them much sooner as well as actually know where you're at for good or bad?
Can you imagine if these seat locations weren't known until the day of the show? Hahaha
At least then we would have only been charged once.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't confirmation emails in the past included language about when we would hear back about claiming our tickets? Usually something like "during the week of blah blah blah?"
I think you're right. I find it a bit annoying I have to go "claim" something I already paid for.
How is it different than when we had to "claim" them at the box office on the day of the show other than you get them much sooner as well as actually know where you're at for good or bad?
Can you imagine if these seat locations weren't known until the day of the show? Hahaha
At least then we would have only been charged once.
But the look of disgust in person on everyones face would have been something to see lol.
I have tried to remain patient during this whole process, but now Tickets Today has confirmed (at least for Austin) that seats were totally random and the seats available for 10C were evenly split with the Verified Fan on sale, and this is not even counting the 10% that were held back for premium that was communicated to us.
Almost everyone that had seats reassigned became significantly worse and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they screwed up and assigned seats to 10C folks that were meant either for premium and/or held back for other on sale opportunities. My patience has officially run out, this whole things has soured me to a point that is really sad.
It was communicated that more seats were available and spread throughout the venues, but at least in the case of Chicago it appears that the entire 10C has been moved to the 300 level. The lack of transparency and communication about this debacle is the most frustrating part of the whole thing.
And i do agree with some others, I personally can't wait until I have all these tickets officially delivered to me so I can dump them ASAP.
They need to pull a Taylor Swift, cancel or reschedule the Verified Sale and clear all of this up and have 10C allocate tix based upon seniority. Will it happen, no. Should it happen, yes. September is a long ways away, there is time to fix this.
Something should be done. What a colossal fuck up with this whole thing.
Where is this Austin information from?
Mansfield 6/30/08 Boston 5/17/10 Baltimore 10/27/13 Central Park 9/26/15 Philadelphia 4/29/16 (TEN) Fenway Park 8/5/16 Fenway Park 9/4/18 St. Paul 9/2/23 Philadelphia 9/7/24 Baltimore 9/12/24
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Totally boned. I got Chicago 1 with my third pick. Those tickets should have gone to someone else.
No, your name was pulled, his wife’s name was pulled, his wasn’t. The lottery is totally random.
FYI at 12:20 East I'm cancelling hotels in Austin (Holiday Inn Express Downtown) and Indy (Wyndham). Not sure if this will help but putting it out there.
Stayed at the Austin Holiday Inn Express when I was there. Its not bad for the price. Nice pool and across the street from Stubbs.
That is where I am staying this time.
Same. Its close enough to downtown. Can be a little loud depending on what side of the building you are on, but they provide ear plugs if needed . The only other thing I'd mention is that there is a homeless shelter close, it can appear a little sketchy at night.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
That is what they have historically done.
Seems pretty clear to me that is not what happened this time. Fine print of the lottery explanation confirms that a change was made.
To me the ultimate question is was this something the band approved (and if so, why?) or something TM did for their own purposes. Or was it just a fuckup. My money is certainly on the latter.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
You’re correct but the bottom line is if my name doesn’t ever get pulled, no matter what concert or priority, I’m not getting a ticket. I never suggested the order the steps happen just trying to make them understand how someone got nothing.
FYI at 12:20 East I'm cancelling hotels in Austin (Holiday Inn Express Downtown) and Indy (Wyndham). Not sure if this will help but putting it out there.
Stayed at the Austin Holiday Inn Express when I was there. Its not bad for the price. Nice pool and across the street from Stubbs.
That is where I am staying this time.
Same. Its close enough to downtown. Can be a little loud depending on what side of the building you are on, but they provide ear plugs if needed . The only other thing I'd mention is that there is a homeless shelter close, it can appear a little sketchy at night.
I live in NYC, so I can't sleep when it's too quiet
I have tried to remain patient during this whole process, but now Tickets Today has confirmed (at least for Austin) that seats were totally random and the seats available for 10C were evenly split with the Verified Fan on sale, and this is not even counting the 10% that were held back for premium that was communicated to us.
Almost everyone that had seats reassigned became significantly worse and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they screwed up and assigned seats to 10C folks that were meant either for premium and/or held back for other on sale opportunities. My patience has officially run out, this whole things has soured me to a point that is really sad.
It was communicated that more seats were available and spread throughout the venues, but at least in the case of Chicago it appears that the entire 10C has been moved to the 300 level. The lack of transparency and communication about this debacle is the most frustrating part of the whole thing.
And i do agree with some others, I personally can't wait until I have all these tickets officially delivered to me so I can dump them ASAP.
They need to pull a Taylor Swift, cancel or reschedule the Verified Sale and clear all of this up and have 10C allocate tix based upon seniority. Will it happen, no. Should it happen, yes. September is a long ways away, there is time to fix this.
Something should be done. What a colossal fuck up with this whole thing.
Where is this Austin information from?
separate thread, copied here for reference....
"Here is email I received from them. There is obviously some sort of miscommunication here. I get people will just say be happy to be in the building but if I am traveling and spending thousands of dollars, I would like to know if my seniority of 20 years will be used in allocating my seats. Maybe some would travel anywhere just to get in the building but am I going to travel to sit all way across stage in Row R? I think we need some sort of clarification here.
Thank you for reaching Ticketstoday Supoort!
We apologize that you are dissatisfied with the results of your request. We are provided seats throughout the entire venue which are randomly assigned to the randomly chosen requests.
In order to be fair to people who aren't aware of the opportunity to order tickets, the seating is divided exactly equally by quality (as well as quantity). Therefore, the tickets allotment includes all levels of quality, from front row to lawn or behind stage seats, the exact same range of seating as will be available when the shows go on sale via outlets.
As per the user agreement which is posted on each of our ticketing sites and every lottery request page which you must agree to before entering your credit card: All ticket sales are final and non-refundable unless the show has been cancelled or postponed; no exchanges will be allowed."
I apologize if this is in this thread somewhere already, but I got another email from Tickets Today a few hours ago. I am confirmed for tickets for Indy, but in the email it says this:
What Happens Next? If we were unable to fulfill your ticket request, no further action is required. Your card has not been charged. If your request was confirmed, check your inbox for a separate email from us with further instructions.
I have no other emails from them in my inbox. And none in my spam. The confirmation that said I won tickets - both the first one and the second one with the worse seats - doesn't say anything about what I need to do.
Does anyone know if we need to do something else now or do we just wait until there's an emal?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Honestly it was better when you could only get one night or the other when there’s multiple dates for one city. I believe that widens everyone’s chances of getting tickets. Then we all have to do some work to get the other night.
This happened to me. Here is what happened, I think.
1. You got confirmed for seats. 2. You got charged for seats, no problem here yet. 3. They screwed up and had to reassign seats. 4. They sent a refund to your card, but it did not hit your account in time. 5. They charged you a second time for the same shows, different seats. 6. Since the original charge was still on the card, the new charges were declined because your card didnt have enough credit/funds, and the refund didnt hit. So they sent you this to use a different card.
ouch. that sucks!
I thought this was the case when the charges were pending, but they are all posted, and my card has a $25K credit limit that I am nowhere near; there are also no refunds or reversals in the pending charges on my account.
And I never got an email about reassigning anything, only an email about how my card was declined, which it clearly wasn't, since the charges have now posted to it; bottom line is, I spent $1200 on vaporware so far because they are a disorganized mess.
I wrote back saying I fully expect the original confirmations I received for three shows to be honored, since I was clearly charged for them and my card wasn't declined. I know there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but what do you risk...
I apologize if this is in this thread somewhere already, but I got another email from Tickets Today a few hours ago. I am confirmed for tickets for Indy, but in the email it says this:
What Happens Next? If we were unable to fulfill your ticket request, no further action is required. Your card has not been charged. If your request was confirmed, check your inbox for a separate email from us with further instructions.
I have no other emails from them in my inbox. And none in my spam. The confirmation that said I won tickets - both the first one and the second one with the worse seats - doesn't say anything about what I need to do.
Does anyone know if we need to do something else now or do we just wait until there's an emal?
I have no other email either, but would like an answer on this also. Thanks for posting.
I am lost, I'm no guide, but I'm by your side
06.27.98 Alpine Valley 10.08.00 Alpine Valley 09.23.02 Chicago 06.18.03 Chicago | 06.21.03 Alpine Valley 10.03.04 Grand Rapids 10.05.05 Chicago 05.16.06 Chicago | 05.17.06 Chicago | 06.29.06 Milwaukee 08.02.07 Chicago | 08.05.07 Chicago 08.23.09 Chicago | 08.24.09 Chicago 05.07.10 Noblesville | 05.09.10 Cleveland 09.03.11 Alpine Valley | 09.04.11 Alpine Valley 07.19.13 Chicago 10.17.14 Moline 08.20.16 Chicago 08.18.18 Chicago 09.18.22 St. Louis 09.05.23 Chicago
Unlike most, I’m frustrated that I ended up getting tickets a day after the draw was done and I was told the process was complete and my request went unfulfilled. I made other arrangements for my tickets and don’t want to have these tix/charges
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
That is what they have historically done.
Seems pretty clear to me that is not what happened this time. Fine print of the lottery explanation confirms that a change was made.
To me the ultimate question is was this something the band approved (and if so, why?) or something TM did for their own purposes. Or was it just a fuckup. My money is certainly on the latter.
For the most part priority worked. GA worked flawlessly. RES some people got missed myself included. They tried to correct it in a redraw saying it had to do with seniority and seating and a lot of the people that got missed won tickets. Nose bleeds for the most part but they got in.
There is no cases of people getting GA not in your first pick. If they drew names first this would not be the case at all.
I have tried to remain patient during this whole process, but now Tickets Today has confirmed (at least for Austin) that seats were totally random and the seats available for 10C were evenly split with the Verified Fan on sale, and this is not even counting the 10% that were held back for premium that was communicated to us.
Almost everyone that had seats reassigned became significantly worse and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they screwed up and assigned seats to 10C folks that were meant either for premium and/or held back for other on sale opportunities. My patience has officially run out, this whole things has soured me to a point that is really sad.
It was communicated that more seats were available and spread throughout the venues, but at least in the case of Chicago it appears that the entire 10C has been moved to the 300 level. The lack of transparency and communication about this debacle is the most frustrating part of the whole thing.
And i do agree with some others, I personally can't wait until I have all these tickets officially delivered to me so I can dump them ASAP.
They need to pull a Taylor Swift, cancel or reschedule the Verified Sale and clear all of this up and have 10C allocate tix based upon seniority. Will it happen, no. Should it happen, yes. September is a long ways away, there is time to fix this.
Something should be done. What a colossal fuck up with this whole thing.
Where is this Austin information from?
separate thread, copied here for reference....
"Here is email I received from them. There is obviously some sort of miscommunication here. I get people will just say be happy to be in the building but if I am traveling and spending thousands of dollars, I would like to know if my seniority of 20 years will be used in allocating my seats. Maybe some would travel anywhere just to get in the building but am I going to travel to sit all way across stage in Row R? I think we need some sort of clarification here.
Thank you for reaching Ticketstoday Supoort!
We apologize that you are dissatisfied with the results of your request. We are provided seats throughout the entire venue which are randomly assigned to the randomly chosen requests.
In order to be fair to people who aren't aware of the opportunity to order tickets, the seating is divided exactly equally by quality (as well as quantity). Therefore, the tickets allotment includes all levels of quality, from front row to lawn or behind stage seats, the exact same range of seating as will be available when the shows go on sale via outlets.
As per the user agreement which is posted on each of our ticketing sites and every lottery request page which you must agree to before entering your credit card: All ticket sales are final and non-refundable unless the show has been cancelled or postponed; no exchanges will be allowed."
If this is true IMO it’s a bombshell. If Verified opens tomorrow and the seat selection is the same range as 10C received that is absolutely new and probably is a huge blow to the 10C. Can’t imagine what the mood will be on here if Verified has substantial selection of 100s and 200s while some 20 year members are in the 300s.
If this happens along with all the other subscriber changes this year I have to wonder if this is a soft way of thinning out 10C and it’s operations as the band gets older. Probably getting ahead of myself on that.
Hopefully this is just a generic customer service response written badly.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
Nobody has any clue what they did, that's the problem.
And nobody really has a clue what they've done in the past either. The comical part is people pass of what they "think" or "want" as how it is. Its not like the NBA draft lottery where its witnessed by Deloitte or Ernst and Young. They can do whatever they want in the black box. And its always been a black box.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
That is what they have historically done.
Seems pretty clear to me that is not what happened this time. Fine print of the lottery explanation confirms that a change was made.
To me the ultimate question is was this something the band approved (and if so, why?) or something TM did for their own purposes. Or was it just a fuckup. My money is certainly on the latter.
For the most part priority worked. GA worked flawlessly. RES some people got missed myself included. They tried to correct it in a redraw saying it had to do with seniority and seating and a lot of the people that got missed won tickets. Nose bleeds for the most part but they got in.
There is no cases of people getting GA not in your first pick. If they drew names first this would not be the case at all.
Mostly agreed. It is possible they pick names and then allocate tickets within those names by priority. And there were not enough GA tickets to ever make it beyond priority 1. But the natural question is why would you pick more winning names than you have tickets to distribute. It is most likely just some sort of TM coding fuck up.
Maybe now it’s easier to understand why they don’t tour as much or don’t like touring. I wouldn’t want to deal with all the anger and bad energy that comes with this entire process.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
Nobody has any clue what they did, that's the problem.
And nobody really has a clue what they've done in the past either. The comical part is people pass of what they "think" or "want" as how it is. Its not like the NBA draft lottery where its witnessed by Deloitte or Ernst and Young. They can do whatever they want in the black box. And its always been a black box.
We knew exactly how they were done in the past. We had it down to a science. It is a very simple lotto and when things look wrong it is very obvious. Before when they did will call there was almost no priority issues. Whenever one popped up the person would not provide a screenshot or when they did what they said was incorrect. Whatever 10C used then to select the winners worked great.
Now you are right we have no clue what they are doing or what went wrong on their end. It is all too random to be able to see a pattern enough aside from it worked from the most part but a lot of people got missed.
Explain this one to me: my account requested 1:Chicago 1, 2:Chicago 2 and 3: Indy. All unfulfilled. My wife had 1: Indy, 2: Chicago 1 and she got Chicago 2 and noting for Indy.
How does she get Chicago with her second pick and I get nothing with the same show as my number 1?
Another piece of evidence that this lottery was completely boned.
Your name was never chosen, your wife’s was.
They do not choose names though first though. They choose cities-> type of ticket->priority->then they choose names.
Nobody has any clue what they did, that's the problem.
And nobody really has a clue what they've done in the past either. The comical part is people pass of what they "think" or "want" as how it is. Its not like the NBA draft lottery where its witnessed by Deloitte or Ernst and Young. They can do whatever they want in the black box. And its always been a black box.
We have a pretty good idea based on reporting spreadsheets from previous shows how it worked. Priority, seniority, etc.....it all lined up with no problems...........can you say the same this time?
I am lost, I'm no guide, but I'm by your side
06.27.98 Alpine Valley 10.08.00 Alpine Valley 09.23.02 Chicago 06.18.03 Chicago | 06.21.03 Alpine Valley 10.03.04 Grand Rapids 10.05.05 Chicago 05.16.06 Chicago | 05.17.06 Chicago | 06.29.06 Milwaukee 08.02.07 Chicago | 08.05.07 Chicago 08.23.09 Chicago | 08.24.09 Chicago 05.07.10 Noblesville | 05.09.10 Cleveland 09.03.11 Alpine Valley | 09.04.11 Alpine Valley 07.19.13 Chicago 10.17.14 Moline 08.20.16 Chicago 08.18.18 Chicago 09.18.22 St. Louis 09.05.23 Chicago
Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Boston 5/17/10
Baltimore 10/27/13
Central Park 9/26/15
Philadelphia 4/29/16 (TEN)
Fenway Park 8/5/16
Fenway Park 9/4/18
St. Paul 9/2/23
Philadelphia 9/7/24
Baltimore 9/12/24
Ev Solo Providence 6/15/11
Seems pretty clear to me that is not what happened this time. Fine print of the lottery explanation confirms that a change was made.
To me the ultimate question is was this something the band approved (and if so, why?) or something TM did for their own purposes. Or was it just a fuckup. My money is certainly on the latter.
"Here is email I received from them. There is obviously some sort of miscommunication here. I get people will just say be happy to be in the building but if I am traveling and spending thousands of dollars, I would like to know if my seniority of 20 years will be used in allocating my seats. Maybe some would travel anywhere just to get in the building but am I going to travel to sit all way across stage in Row R? I think we need some sort of clarification here.
Thank you for reaching Ticketstoday Supoort!
We apologize that you are dissatisfied with the results of your request. We are provided seats throughout the entire venue which are randomly assigned to the randomly chosen requests.
In order to be fair to people who aren't aware of the opportunity to order tickets, the seating is divided exactly equally by quality (as well as quantity). Therefore, the tickets allotment includes all levels of quality, from front row to lawn or behind stage seats, the exact same range of seating as will be available when the shows go on sale via outlets.
As per the user agreement which is posted on each of our ticketing sites and every lottery request page which you must agree to before entering your credit card: All ticket sales are final and non-refundable unless the show has been cancelled or postponed; no exchanges will be allowed."
98' - 6/26, 6/27, 6/29, 8/26, 9/22
03' - 4/25
06' - 6/29, 6/30
07' - 8/05
09' - 8/23
11' - 9/03, 9/04
12' - 9/30
13' - 7/16, 7/19, 10/21, 10/22, 11/15, 11/16, 12/06
14' - 06/28, 06/29, 10/1, 10/03, 10/16, 10/17, 10/20, 10/22
15' - 11/20, 11/22
16' - 4/21, 4/26, 4/28, 4/29, 5/1, 5/2, 7/9, 8/5, 8/7, 8/20, 8/22
17' - 4/7
18' - 7/1, 7/3, 7/5, 8/8, 8/10, 8/18, 8/20, 9/4
21' - 10/1, 10/2
22' - 7/12, 7/14, 9/6, 9/8
What Happens Next?
If we were unable to fulfill your ticket request, no further action is required. Your card has not been charged. If your request was confirmed, check your inbox for a separate email from us with further instructions.
I have no other emails from them in my inbox. And none in my spam. The confirmation that said I won tickets - both the first one and the second one with the worse seats - doesn't say anything about what I need to do.
Does anyone know if we need to do something else now or do we just wait until there's an emal?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
2009: Salt Lake City, Utah
2012: Missoula, Montana
2014: Denver, Colorado
2018: Missoula, Montana
And I never got an email about reassigning anything, only an email about how my card was declined, which it clearly wasn't, since the charges have now posted to it; bottom line is, I spent $1200 on vaporware so far because they are a disorganized mess.
I wrote back saying I fully expect the original confirmations I received for three shows to be honored, since I was clearly charged for them and my card wasn't declined. I know there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, but what do you risk...
10.08.00 Alpine Valley
09.23.02 Chicago
06.18.03 Chicago | 06.21.03 Alpine Valley
10.03.04 Grand Rapids
10.05.05 Chicago
05.16.06 Chicago | 05.17.06 Chicago | 06.29.06 Milwaukee
08.02.07 Chicago | 08.05.07 Chicago
08.23.09 Chicago | 08.24.09 Chicago
05.07.10 Noblesville | 05.09.10 Cleveland
09.03.11 Alpine Valley | 09.04.11 Alpine Valley
07.19.13 Chicago
10.17.14 Moline
08.20.16 Chicago
08.18.18 Chicago
09.18.22 St. Louis
09.05.23 Chicago
Eddie Vedder: 6/15/09 6/16/11
There is no cases of people getting GA not in your first pick. If they drew names first this would not be the case at all.
If this happens along with all the other subscriber changes this year I have to wonder if this is a soft way of thinning out 10C and it’s operations as the band gets older. Probably getting ahead of myself on that.
Now you are right we have no clue what they are doing or what went wrong on their end. It is all too random to be able to see a pattern enough aside from it worked from the most part but a lot of people got missed.
10.08.00 Alpine Valley
09.23.02 Chicago
06.18.03 Chicago | 06.21.03 Alpine Valley
10.03.04 Grand Rapids
10.05.05 Chicago
05.16.06 Chicago | 05.17.06 Chicago | 06.29.06 Milwaukee
08.02.07 Chicago | 08.05.07 Chicago
08.23.09 Chicago | 08.24.09 Chicago
05.07.10 Noblesville | 05.09.10 Cleveland
09.03.11 Alpine Valley | 09.04.11 Alpine Valley
07.19.13 Chicago
10.17.14 Moline
08.20.16 Chicago
08.18.18 Chicago
09.18.22 St. Louis
09.05.23 Chicago
"...I changed by not changing at all..."