California governor recall election

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  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,625
    HughFreakingDillon said
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Fucking A 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,788
    I know this thread is about the CA recall, but this pertains to the whole “rigged election” theme that’s become so popular in recent years: 

    Anything that doesn’t go trump’s way is rigged. When trump expects to lose he gets out in front of it & claims it was rigged in advance. We all know this, we’ve all seen this. It’s not debatable. 

    Any suggestion that both sides behave this way is delusional at best. 




    Back in 2016 some republicans told him to cut the shit. Imagine that! 

    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/republicans-rigged-election-claim-donald-trump-229630

    But he didn’t and it worked. “Rigged elections” is what we’re going to hear when democrats win now. Unless I’m mistaken, over 70% of republicans believe Biden stole 2020. People don’t trust the election process now, despite the fact that there’s no evidence to suggest widespread voter fraud exists. The messaging worked. 

    How does that saying go? “if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth.” The following links are from both 2016 & 2020…. It’s almost as if there’s a pattern of behavior. 



    & here’s why Hillary told Biden not to concede on election night… and she was 100% right: 


    One side has been proactively instilling distrust in our election process for the last several years, and it’s working. F off w/ the “both sides” bullshit here and stop believing blatant lies. 
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,235
    Merkin Baller said:
    I know this thread is about the CA recall, but this pertains to the whole “rigged election” theme that’s become so popular in recent years: 

    Anything that doesn’t go trump’s way is rigged. When trump expects to lose he gets out in front of it & claims it was rigged in advance. We all know this, we’ve all seen this. It’s not debatable. 

    Any suggestion that both sides behave this way is delusional at best. 




    Back in 2016 some republicans told him to cut the shit. Imagine that! 

    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/republicans-rigged-election-claim-donald-trump-229630

    But he didn’t and it worked. “Rigged elections” is what we’re going to hear when democrats win now. Unless I’m mistaken, over 70% of republicans believe Biden stole 2020. People don’t trust the election process now, despite the fact that there’s no evidence to suggest widespread voter fraud exists. The messaging worked. 

    How does that saying go? “if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth.” The following links are from both 2016 & 2020…. It’s almost as if there’s a pattern of behavior. 



    & here’s why Hillary told Biden not to concede on election night… and she was 100% right: 


    One side has been proactively instilling distrust in our election process for the last several years, and it’s working. F off w/ the “both sides” bullshit here and stop believing blatant lies. 
    Buh, buh, buh the fraudit results in Arizona are going to be announced soon, and PA is doing one too but they’re requesting voters’ DL & SS#s with names and addresses of every voter and turning that information over to a yet to be named third party so they can check to see, well they don’t know yet but I’m sure it’s relevant. And Wisconsin is going to do a fraudit too because we all know Wisconsin voters make their own ballots, particularly in that city Detroit. You’ll see, 2020 election will be overturned and POOTWH will return to the oval. In 2040. It happens. A lot.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,830
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    stop saying farce. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
    I think this Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office and this CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen are what Brian and others are referring to when calling it a "farce". If you don't agree with the wording, fine, but I think you get what he means. 12% to recall a governor? that's absurd. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    It is remarkable how all republicans have resorted to this over the last few years

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/whataboutism-what-about-it/2017/08/17/4d05ed36-82b4-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html

    Whataboutism: The Cold War tactic, thawed by Putin, is brandished by Donald Trump


    August 18, 2017

    What about antifa? What about free speech? What about the guy who shot Steve Scalise? What about the mosque in Minnesota that got bombed? What about North Korea? What about murders in Chicago? What about Ivanka at the G-20? What about Vince Foster? If white pride is bad, then what about gay pride? What about the stock market? What about those 33,000 deleted emails? What about Hitler? What about the Crusades? What about the asteroid that may one day kill us all? What about Benghazi?

    What about what about what about.

    We’ve gotten very good at what-abouting.

    The president has led the way.

    His campaign may or may not have conspired with Moscow, but President Trump has routinely employed a durable old Soviet propaganda tactic. Tuesday’s bonkers news conference in New York was Trump’s latest act of “whataboutism,” the practice of short-circuiting an argument by asserting moral equivalency between two things that aren’t necessarily comparable. In this case, the president wondered whether the removal of a statue of Confederate leader Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville — where white supremacists clashed this weekend with counterprotesters — would lead to the teardown of others.

    Donald Trump’s news conference on Tuesday offered a crash course in whataboutism. (Pablo Martinez Monsivais/AP)

    Robert E. Lee? What about George Washington?

    “George Washington was a slave owner,” Trump said to journalists in the lobby of his corporate headquarters. “Are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson?”

    Using the literal “what about” construction, Trump then went on to blame “both sides” for the violence in Charlottesville.

    “What about the ‘alt-left’ that came charging at the, as you say, the ‘alt-right’?” the president said. “Do they have any semblance of guilt?”

    For a nanosecond, especially to an uncritical listener, this stab at logic might seem interesting, even thought-provoking, and that’s why it’s a useful political tool. Whataboutism appears to broaden context, to offer a counterpoint, when really it’s diverting blame, muddying the waters and confusing the hell out of rational listeners.

    “Not only does it help to deflect your original argument but it also throws you off balance,” says Alexey Kovalev, an independent Russian journalist, on the phone from Moscow. “You’re expecting to be in a civilized argument that doesn’t use cheap tricks like that. You are playing chess and your opponent — while making a lousy move — he just punches you on the nose.”

    [‘There are no fine people marching with Nazis’: Seth Meyers on Trump’s Charlottesville response]

    Vladi­mir Putin has made a national sport of what-abouting. In 2014, when a journalist challenged him on his annexation of Crimea, Putin brought up the U.S. annexation of Texas. The American invasion of Iraq is constantly what-abouted on state television, to excuse all kinds of Russian behavior.

    In Edward Snowden, “Russia has found the ultimate whataboutism mascot,” the Atlantic’s Olga Khazan wrote in 2013. “By granting him asylum, Russia casts itself, even if momentarily, as a defender of human rights, and the U.S. as the oppressor.”

    The term was first coined as “whataboutery” and “the whatabouts,” in stories about the Irish Republican Army in the 1970s, according to linguist Ben Zimmer. But the practice goes back to the chilly depths of the Cold War.

    “An old joke 50 years ago was that if you went to a Stalinist and criticized the Soviet slave-labor camps, the Stalinist would say, ‘Well what about the lynchings in the American South?’” philosopher Noam Chomsky once said.

    In 1970, as the Soviet Union made headlines for imprisoning dissidents, Ukrainian artist Viktor Koretsky created a propaganda lithograph titled “American Politics at home and abroad.” It depicted U.S. police beating a black man and a U.S. soldier standing over a dead body, presumably in Vietnam.

    In May 1985 the U.S. State Department funded a conference at the Madison Hotel on the fallacy of “moral equivalence,” a philosophical cousin of whataboutism. The goal was to tamp down comparisons of the 1983 U.S. invasion of Grenada with the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, among other instances. The actions may be comparable, the State Department implied, but the intentions were not.

    “If it is no longer possible to distinguish between freedom and despotism,” said Jeane Kirkpatrick, Ronald Reagan’s ambassador to the United Nations, then “the erosion of the foundation of a distinctively Western, democratic civilization is already far advanced and the situation serious indeed.”

    [‘Clinically insane,’ ‘7th circle of hell’: Late-night hosts process Trump’s news conference]

    Flash forward 30 years. President Trump’s Twitter feed has been a whataboutism showcase, with Hillary Clinton as the usual target.

    April 3: “Did Hillary Clinton ever apologize for receiving the answers to the debate? Just asking!”

    June 26: “The real story is that President Obama did NOTHING after being informed in August about Russian meddling.”

    July 22: “. . . What about all of the Clinton ties to Russia . . .”

    Googling of “Whataboutism” began to climb sharply in November of last year; this week, with Charlottesville, it reached an all-time high. “You look at both sides,” Trump said Tuesday, after saying “what about” three times. “I think there is blame on both sides . . . and nobody wants to say that.”

    Some people saw this as brave truth-telling, and as exposing double standards in the media.

    “Trump-haters on both sides of the aisle simply cry ‘whataboutism,’ as if it were a magic spell to ward off rational thought,” wrote Joel B. Pollak on the right-wing site Breitbart.com, in an article headlined “The attack on ‘whataboutism’ is a defense of hypocrisy.”

    Trump’s most flagrant what-about, though, was used not in defense of himself, but in defense of Russia.

    “Putin’s a killer,” Bill O’Reilly said to Trump in a February interview.

    “There are a lot of killers,” Trump whatabouted. “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think — our country’s so innocent?”

    “That’s exactly the kind of argument that Russian propagandists have used for years to justify some of Putin’s most brutal policies,” wrote Michael McFaul, former ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration.

    “Moral relativism — ‘whataboutism’ — has always been a favorite weapon of illiberal regimes,” Russian chessmaster and activist Garry Kasparov told the Columbia Journalism Review in March. “For a U.S. president to employ it against his own country is tragic.”

    www.myspace.com
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.

    Farce, joke, waste, ludicrous, shameful... there are all kinds a adjectives like that I would apply to the recall election.  Why? Because:
    -The process itself is illogical.  If the "yes, recall [any governor]" vote wins, the one person out of a large field of candidates becomes the new governor.  That means a candidate receiving as few as 12% of the vote steps into office.  THAT is a farce, a joke, a sham, etc.
    -The recall election cost hundreds of millions of dollars and Newsom only has 12 more months until the next election.  Wouldn't it have made more sense to use all that money to help fight wildfires (as I write this, the largest living objects- the giant Sequoia redwoods- are being threatened by wildfire), or help the homeless, or supply the poorest school districts, or any number of other more critical needs.
    -Because the Republican party could not come up with a better candidate than a misogynist nutcase. 

    So choose the adjectives... but I think you will find it unfitting to choose "wise", "well thought out", "prudent", "useful", "timely", or just about any other positive term you can come up with.  My choice would be either "a farce" or "a fucking waste of time and money".
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,830
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
    I think this Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office and this CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen are what Brian and others are referring to when calling it a "farce". If you don't agree with the wording, fine, but I think you get what he means. 12% to recall a governor? that's absurd. 
    Maybe it was the wording. He called this election a farce and a sham. Those are pretty specific words, so I’m assuming he meant it, just asked for a reason why he thinks so.  Waste of time an money, yes. Farce and sham, no.  I blame the system, not this particular election or those who pushed for it. 
    It followed all requirements, met the standards for a recall election. No one bent any rules, forged any documents, or anything else that makes this recall election illegitimate, or in other words, a sham. In fact, until just a few days ago most people actually seemed at least a little concerned it would pass, no one that I saw predicted it would be such a blow out. 
    I guess when I see someone call it a farce and a sham I interpret that as blaming those involved, maybe intentionally knowing they would not succeed but attempting to be destructive the Newsom and the Democratic Party. How else would this be a farce and a sham? My interpretation of those comments, which is why I asked what he meant. I think Elder and those who supported him thought he had a chance. I think those who supported Newsom also thought Elder had a chance. 
    I also think Newsom bears some responsibility. California is losing people in record numbers. High taxes, cost of living, low performing schools. Many don’t agree with his shut downs. Enough people don’t like California to allow it to meet the low standards for a recall.

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    mace1229 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
    I think this Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office and this CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen are what Brian and others are referring to when calling it a "farce". If you don't agree with the wording, fine, but I think you get what he means. 12% to recall a governor? that's absurd. 
    Maybe it was the wording. He called this election a farce and a sham. Those are pretty specific words, so I’m assuming he meant it, just asked for a reason why he thinks so.  Waste of time an money, yes. Farce and sham, no.  I blame the system, not this particular election or those who pushed for it. 
    It followed all requirements, met the standards for a recall election. No one bent any rules, forged any documents, or anything else that makes this recall election illegitimate, or in other words, a sham. In fact, until just a few days ago most people actually seemed at least a little concerned it would pass, no one that I saw predicted it would be such a blow out. 
    I guess when I see someone call it a farce and a sham I interpret that as blaming those involved, maybe intentionally knowing they would not succeed but attempting to be destructive the Newsom and the Democratic Party. How else would this be a farce and a sham? My interpretation of those comments, which is why I asked what he meant. I think Elder and those who supported him thought he had a chance. I think those who supported Newsom also thought Elder had a chance. 
    I also think Newsom bears some responsibility. California is losing people in record numbers. High taxes, cost of living, low performing schools. Many don’t agree with his shut downs. Enough people don’t like California to allow it to meet the low standards for a recall.


    I meant it and I responded above. I will agree that the way the recall system in California is a big part of the problem.  But the timing and the waste of money and the extremely low quality of candidates with Republicans put forth in that recall election?  I stand by what I said about those things.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,830
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
    I think this Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office and this CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen are what Brian and others are referring to when calling it a "farce". If you don't agree with the wording, fine, but I think you get what he means. 12% to recall a governor? that's absurd. 
    Maybe it was the wording. He called this election a farce and a sham. Those are pretty specific words, so I’m assuming he meant it, just asked for a reason why he thinks so.  Waste of time an money, yes. Farce and sham, no.  I blame the system, not this particular election or those who pushed for it. 
    It followed all requirements, met the standards for a recall election. No one bent any rules, forged any documents, or anything else that makes this recall election illegitimate, or in other words, a sham. In fact, until just a few days ago most people actually seemed at least a little concerned it would pass, no one that I saw predicted it would be such a blow out. 
    I guess when I see someone call it a farce and a sham I interpret that as blaming those involved, maybe intentionally knowing they would not succeed but attempting to be destructive the Newsom and the Democratic Party. How else would this be a farce and a sham? My interpretation of those comments, which is why I asked what he meant. I think Elder and those who supported him thought he had a chance. I think those who supported Newsom also thought Elder had a chance. 
    I also think Newsom bears some responsibility. California is losing people in record numbers. High taxes, cost of living, low performing schools. Many don’t agree with his shut downs. Enough people don’t like California to allow it to meet the low standards for a recall.


    I meant it and I responded above. I will agree that the way the recall system in California is a big part of the problem.  But the timing and the waste of money and the extremely low quality of candidates with Republicans put forth in that recall election?  I stand by what I said about those things.
    Looks like we were writing our responses at the same time. I would agree with most of it. Waste of time and money. Stupid, yes to all that.
    I just don’t consider it a sham because there seemed to be real concern it would pass. I view sham elections as having fraud, rigged or only 1 real possible outcome. Voting against a dictator and your family disappears, that’s a sham. Or even knowing it couldn’t pass but putting it on for show or to disrupt the party I would agree is a sham. But I don’t think that was the purpose, like I said there appeared to be some real concern and possibility prior to Tuesday. I’m guessing we’re just disagreeing on the use of sham election, not worth beating a horse over. Pointless, waste of time and money. The bar should be much higher. No point in me arguing over a word or 2 difference.
    Elder being the front runner seemed like a weird choice. Not too familiar with him other than knowing he’s far right. He’s an odd guy and moves and smiles like a poorly designed animatronics mannequin from the 80s. But that’s independent from the process, I guess no one else wanted to throw their name in.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    JB16057 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    JB16057 said:
    brianlux said:
    All this crying about voter fraud is a joke.  It's very easy to see why the Republicans lost their effort to recall Newsom.  When the best they could come up with for a leading candidate is a misogynistic crackpot like Larry Elder, Democrats were highly motivated to get the vote out and vote "no" on the recall.  Simple as that.

    And Elder referred to the election having "twisted results" four days before the election.  That kind of pre-election whining only serves to illustrate how unhinged Elder's party has become.  

    Didn't Hilary tell Biden, on national TV, that he should not concede to Trump under any circumstances? Where was the outrage then? That kind of pre-election whining is not unique to the Republican party. Both parties are unhinged and have been for a very long time.

    oh please. haha. not unique to the republican party. all she meant was don't concede until we have all the facts. you have a bunch of republicans going on national fucking tv every goddamn night and tweeting every goddamn day about the stolen election. 

    you have the former president of the united states holding rallies all over the country whining that he didn't lose. 

    democrats have never attempted an insurrection. 
    democrats don't whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at every election. 

    until they do, there is zero both sidesing of this. 
    Hilary did not say "do not concede until we know all of the facts." She said, "Do not concede under ANY circumstances".

    This message board is full of Democrat sycophants. Why can't anyone admit when Democrats are wrong? Every point I bring up gets shot down like what I'm saying never happened. You all put a spin on the facts to make it fit into your political beliefs.

    Republicans do not whine or pre-whine about voter fraud at EVERY election. Come on now. Why can't we just have honest conversations instead of shilling for the party we each believe in? It only creates more division.

    There are people here (myself included) who are willing to call out Dems on their shit from time to time.   But yeah, Dems do get cut more slack here than Republicans, so I would grant you that to a degree. 
    But there are a few things to consider here:
    -This is a fan sight for a band that has not been afraid to express itself as being left leaning and progressive and obviously not well aligned with the right.  That's going to attract a lot more liberal fans than conservative fans.  You have to expect more Democrats and liberals to show interest here, especially when you are post on the AMT section of the fan site forums.
    -You are posting on a thread about a recall election that, in the first place, was a farce foisted off on the voters of California at a great expense at a time when that money could have been put to much better use.  And after losing that sham of a recall vote, many Republicans, especially those on the far right including their number one pick, Larry Elder, did whine before the election was over and have been whining ever since.  That's just a simple fact. 
    -That recall election has been soundly criticized by former president Trump as being rigged.  This is more whining coming from a sore loser who has done nothing but whine ever since he was fairly and legally voted out of office.  Those are just simple facts.
    -Yes, to say that Republicans whine about every election result might be an exaggeration, but Republicans are setting the precedent.  If you support the Republican  party and don't want to hear those accusations, I would suggest you work within that party to restore some respect to its existence because respect is what it is sorely lacking.  You might consider working with the Lincoln Project folks who, from what I have read, appear to be far more rational, smart thinking, and logical in their actions that the hot headed infantile reactions of people like Larry Elder and Donald Trump and their followers.
    Why do you think the recall election was a farce?
    Many people don’t like the direction California is headed and there were more than enough signatures to hold a new election. Recall elections have been successful before, I think Newsom and those who spoke on his behalf were legitimately concerned. No one knew it was going to be the blow out that it was.
    Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office. But according to CA law, this recall was legit, met all the requirements, had Newsom and others worried. It wasn’t a farce. CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen. That doesn’t make it a farce.
    I think this Now I would agree the requirements for a recall are too easy, and once elected that person should remain in office and this CA just has too low of a standard to meet for a recall that allows these elections to happen are what Brian and others are referring to when calling it a "farce". If you don't agree with the wording, fine, but I think you get what he means. 12% to recall a governor? that's absurd. 
    Maybe it was the wording. He called this election a farce and a sham. Those are pretty specific words, so I’m assuming he meant it, just asked for a reason why he thinks so.  Waste of time an money, yes. Farce and sham, no.  I blame the system, not this particular election or those who pushed for it. 
    It followed all requirements, met the standards for a recall election. No one bent any rules, forged any documents, or anything else that makes this recall election illegitimate, or in other words, a sham. In fact, until just a few days ago most people actually seemed at least a little concerned it would pass, no one that I saw predicted it would be such a blow out. 
    I guess when I see someone call it a farce and a sham I interpret that as blaming those involved, maybe intentionally knowing they would not succeed but attempting to be destructive the Newsom and the Democratic Party. How else would this be a farce and a sham? My interpretation of those comments, which is why I asked what he meant. I think Elder and those who supported him thought he had a chance. I think those who supported Newsom also thought Elder had a chance. 
    I also think Newsom bears some responsibility. California is losing people in record numbers. High taxes, cost of living, low performing schools. Many don’t agree with his shut downs. Enough people don’t like California to allow it to meet the low standards for a recall.


    I meant it and I responded above. I will agree that the way the recall system in California is a big part of the problem.  But the timing and the waste of money and the extremely low quality of candidates with Republicans put forth in that recall election?  I stand by what I said about those things.
    Looks like we were writing our responses at the same time. I would agree with most of it. Waste of time and money. Stupid, yes to all that.
    I just don’t consider it a sham because there seemed to be real concern it would pass. I view sham elections as having fraud, rigged or only 1 real possible outcome. Voting against a dictator and your family disappears, that’s a sham. Or even knowing it couldn’t pass but putting it on for show or to disrupt the party I would agree is a sham. But I don’t think that was the purpose, like I said there appeared to be some real concern and possibility prior to Tuesday. I’m guessing we’re just disagreeing on the use of sham election, not worth beating a horse over. Pointless, waste of time and money. The bar should be much higher. No point in me arguing over a word or 2 difference.
    Elder being the front runner seemed like a weird choice. Not too familiar with him other than knowing he’s far right. He’s an odd guy and moves and smiles like a poorly designed animatronics mannequin from the 80s. But that’s independent from the process, I guess no one else wanted to throw their name in.

    Fair enough, Mace.  I'm just glad it's over!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

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