Cleveland Indians to drop "Indians" from team name after 105 years

mrussel1

OnWis97 said:

It looks to me like what William and Mary did is similar to what other schools with controversial names do. They adopted a mascot that isn’t really connected to the name. For example, I think Mississippi has a bear instead of Colonel Reb and I believe Illinois adopted some sort of an animal as well. I guess the difference is that William and Mary has incorporated it into logos beyond just the fuzzy mascot out on the field.

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2018/7/18/william-mary-athletics-logos-and-marks.aspx

I remember them as the Tribe having feathers in one of their word marks but I guess they’ve  moved on from that.  

But I don’t think an unrelated mythical creature or animal as a logo works in the majors. I guess we have things like the Capitals using an eagle but I think in the big leagues a primary logo with this much disconnect would be strange. It would be like the Pirates using a wolf or something. 

The best route to go with that name would be to be like the Packers and simply just use letters (Edit; or maybe like the Phillies Liberty Bell logo...subtl city-related image) and not really have a graphic representation of the name. But as I’ve contended before, they are just as well to do that with their current name.

Yeah they use the "Griffin" which is odd.  Busch Gardens Williamsburg has a coaster named the same and I always wondered if the coaster was named for the team, or the team named for the coaster. 

F Me In The Brain

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

mrussel1

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

I don't ignore them, but that aren't convincing me, particularly around the concept of appropriation as it relates to the word Tribe... see ya "buddy".  

F Me In The Brain

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

I don't ignore them, but that aren't convincing me, particularly around the concept of appropriation as it relates to the word Tribe... see ya "buddy".  

tempo_n_groove

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

F Me In The Brain

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

This would matter more if their previous name had not been Indians.  There is an obvious connection there, with that history, to The Tribe being an Indian Tribe.  To pretend otherwise would be to.....pretend, don't you think? 

hedonist

tempo_n_groove said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

Well, but not really, but only because Jazz, though primarily black music, is also American music.  An though it was formed by African Americans, as truly American music, it makes sense that it would become inclusive of other cultures while being acknowledged as having originally been created by African Americans.  And again, it was mainly black jazz musicians who made the move to have integrated bands and their intentional inclusion of white musicians into the music removes it from cultural appropriation.  You won't find Native Americans encouraging whites to join in on Ghost Dancing. 

And I would say traditional music from specific places and times- like, say- Lakota Native American Ghost dance chanting-  is really the only music that could be culturally appropriated.  Jazz and blues have been more evolutionary and broadly inclusive in nature.

I'm making the point that cultural app is totally common in our country,  from music,  to dress to language.  We used to call it a melting pot of cultures but now it seems to be a negative thing. 

I'm good with the idea of incorporating ideas in music, dress or whatever as long as it is approved of by all concerned.  But if something specific to a group or culture is appropriated without consent of that culture or group, I would say that is an egregious act of cultural theft, aka cultural appropriation.

Brian - so I'm not trying to pick you apart, but what does that mean?  The whole culture has to unanimously agree?  Does there have to a vote?  Surely some Black people were uncomfortable with the success of the Beastie Boys.  Should I ditch the records, should they be removed from the HOF, should their records come off the shelf?  The bar you set is unachievable.  How does a culture provide consent?

Pick away,  ¡No problemo!*

Not the whole culture, but the majority.

No vote needed- they speak for themselves.

Black and Beasties? I don't know enough about rap or hip-hop to speak on that subject.

Unreachable?  I don't think so.  Just listen to what the people have to say.

*Analyze that one!  Is my use of Spanish a form of cultural appropriation?  I don't know for sure.  We have a lot of Hispanic people in our neck of the woods and  I've heard Spanish spoken around me all my life.  When I order tacos from Santa Maria Taqueria, I inevitably use some Spanish without really thinking about it.  Am I part Hispanic?  Nope!  Has any Hispanic person ever asked me to not use Spanish?  Nope!

What if one did, would you stop using it forever?  

Context? But have you, your race, your belonging, ever been caricatured, ridiculed, been made fun of and denied all the righteous rights of a supposed “constitution?” And dismissed when offended by the caricature but more importantly, the history? Sure you have.

People go to fairs and theme parks and pay to have a caricature made of themselves.  Is this making fun of yourself or is a caricature just that?  A Caricature with zero meaning behind it?

tempo, there’s a huge difference between a casual caricature that you’ve requested in fun. That overdramatization of physical characteristics is expected. Not even close to much of the old propaganda depicting the classic stereotypes for Jews, blacks, Latinos. Many non -WASP folks.

rgambs

Can't we all agree though that the Beastie Boys blow?
That high-pitch, middle school rhyming 🤪🤪

F Me In The Brain

rgambs said:

Can't we all agree though that the Beastie Boys blow?
That high-pitch, middle school rhyming 🤪🤪

Never!  I would sooner agree that changing from Indians to The Tribe is a swell idea.

tempo_n_groove

hedonist said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

Well, but not really, but only because Jazz, though primarily black music, is also American music.  An though it was formed by African Americans, as truly American music, it makes sense that it would become inclusive of other cultures while being acknowledged as having originally been created by African Americans.  And again, it was mainly black jazz musicians who made the move to have integrated bands and their intentional inclusion of white musicians into the music removes it from cultural appropriation.  You won't find Native Americans encouraging whites to join in on Ghost Dancing. 

And I would say traditional music from specific places and times- like, say- Lakota Native American Ghost dance chanting-  is really the only music that could be culturally appropriated.  Jazz and blues have been more evolutionary and broadly inclusive in nature.

I'm making the point that cultural app is totally common in our country,  from music,  to dress to language.  We used to call it a melting pot of cultures but now it seems to be a negative thing. 

I'm good with the idea of incorporating ideas in music, dress or whatever as long as it is approved of by all concerned.  But if something specific to a group or culture is appropriated without consent of that culture or group, I would say that is an egregious act of cultural theft, aka cultural appropriation.

Brian - so I'm not trying to pick you apart, but what does that mean?  The whole culture has to unanimously agree?  Does there have to a vote?  Surely some Black people were uncomfortable with the success of the Beastie Boys.  Should I ditch the records, should they be removed from the HOF, should their records come off the shelf?  The bar you set is unachievable.  How does a culture provide consent?

Pick away,  ¡No problemo!*

Not the whole culture, but the majority.

No vote needed- they speak for themselves.

Black and Beasties? I don't know enough about rap or hip-hop to speak on that subject.

Unreachable?  I don't think so.  Just listen to what the people have to say.

*Analyze that one!  Is my use of Spanish a form of cultural appropriation?  I don't know for sure.  We have a lot of Hispanic people in our neck of the woods and  I've heard Spanish spoken around me all my life.  When I order tacos from Santa Maria Taqueria, I inevitably use some Spanish without really thinking about it.  Am I part Hispanic?  Nope!  Has any Hispanic person ever asked me to not use Spanish?  Nope!

What if one did, would you stop using it forever?  

Context? But have you, your race, your belonging, ever been caricatured, ridiculed, been made fun of and denied all the righteous rights of a supposed “constitution?” And dismissed when offended by the caricature but more importantly, the history? Sure you have.

People go to fairs and theme parks and pay to have a caricature made of themselves.  Is this making fun of yourself or is a caricature just that?  A Caricature with zero meaning behind it?

tempo, there’s a huge difference between a casual caricature that you’ve requested in fun. That overdramatization of physical characteristics is expected. Not even close to much of the old propaganda depicting the classic stereotypes for Jews, blacks, Latinos. Many non -WASP folks.

The indian is tan w a feather?  Not sure what is dramatized other than that. To me the Caricature is fine but I'm not the demographic that cares or is bothering.

tempo_n_groove

rgambs said:

Can't we all agree though that the Beastie Boys blow?
That high-pitch, middle school rhyming 🤪🤪

No matter how many awesome songs we could show you, it won't change your "wrong" minded thinking...

Beasties are good yo.

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

tempo_n_groove

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

I get this ration of thinking.  Good point Hugh.

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

I don't think there's any hiding of the fact that it's about staying connected to the team.  And when I think of the word, for me it's first my baseball club and then it's about tribalism or tribal politics, which is much more on my mind these days than NAs.  What people like me want is to continue to use the name that we affectionately use for our fans and our team, a word that is neither racist or exclusive to NAs.  If you watch a local broadcast (of which I watch, probably 161 a year), you will notice that the word Tribe is used far more than Indians.  I will say that whatever is the new name, fans will continue to use Tribe for years to come, until we die out and our children die out. 

hedonist

tempo_n_groove said:

hedonist said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"Tribe" might not be offensive if the team wasn't already connected to a native american culturally insensitive name. to me that sounds like "Indians Light". 

and let's be honest, when anyone says the word "tribe", literally zero people get a picture of a group of white people in their head. 

I don't think that's true at all. A tribe is a word that yes, is Native American in nature, but is used in all sorts of contexts of a group of people with a common set of beliefs, or whatever.  Just like the Strangest Tribe.  To say that literally zero think of white people is kind of silly.  When I say Tribe, I think about Cleveland baseball fans, my fellow fans.  I don't think about Native Americans or anything else.  

That could be true, but to me, when I hear a white person use the word "tribe", the concept of cultural appropriation pops into  my head.  My step daughter, wonderful, bright, marvelous person that she is, occasionally uses the word "tribe" to describe her circle of friends and every time she does I think it sounds awkward at best.  For one thing, her "tribe", a great bunch of people though they may be, do not fit the definition of tribe...

"a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader"

...because they are an eclectic group that does not fit that definition.  

There is a modern usage of the term "tribe" with it's own contemporary definition, but that word, used that way, must honestly and unarguably be described as an example of cultural appropriation.  It then becomes an issue how how one feels about cultural appropriation.  Personal, I don't dig it.

So when a white kid wears Air Jordan's and a flat cap,  is that wrong? It's cultural appropriation by the very definition.  What about when you break dance or play some jazz on your sax. Where's the line between respect and damage?

Other than traditional costume, I don't think there is a well defined cultural affiliation with clothing.  I will say, at best it looks a bit embarrassing and silly when a rocker like Dee Dee Ramone dresses like a rapper. 

Mixed race jazz bands go back a long way and few black jazz musicians today or in the past have had strong objections to white musicians playing jazz.  On the other hand, some will strongly object to white jazz musicians being given better opportunity or recognition for the music.  For example, in the early 70's I took a jazz appreciation class at San Francisco state under the tutelage of black recording jazz artist John Handy.  John told us that in many circles, big band jazz was often attributed to white bands like the Glenn Miller Orchestra or Tommy Dorsey's band, etc.  Handy did not object to these bands playing jazz music, but he did object to the fact that they were given credit for creating music that was originally created by and better written and performed  black jazz bands-  orchestras led by the likes of Duke Ellington and Count Basie.  Those white bands were also paid better and given better accommodations. Handy and most other black performers argued rightly that racism was an obvious component in how the music was received and rewarded, but there was no mention of cultural appropriation in white bands playing jazz.  And some of the greatest jazz musicians have had integrated jazz band from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker hiring Red Rodney (and having to claim Rodney was an albino black in order to play in some clubs) to Mile Davis working with white musicians.

So of course cultural appropriation is not a factor in jazz.  But racism certainly has been.

What you just described is cultural appropriation, isn't it?  Just because it went deep into racism doesn't mean it wasn't appropriation. 

Well, but not really, but only because Jazz, though primarily black music, is also American music.  An though it was formed by African Americans, as truly American music, it makes sense that it would become inclusive of other cultures while being acknowledged as having originally been created by African Americans.  And again, it was mainly black jazz musicians who made the move to have integrated bands and their intentional inclusion of white musicians into the music removes it from cultural appropriation.  You won't find Native Americans encouraging whites to join in on Ghost Dancing. 

And I would say traditional music from specific places and times- like, say- Lakota Native American Ghost dance chanting-  is really the only music that could be culturally appropriated.  Jazz and blues have been more evolutionary and broadly inclusive in nature.

I'm making the point that cultural app is totally common in our country,  from music,  to dress to language.  We used to call it a melting pot of cultures but now it seems to be a negative thing. 

I'm good with the idea of incorporating ideas in music, dress or whatever as long as it is approved of by all concerned.  But if something specific to a group or culture is appropriated without consent of that culture or group, I would say that is an egregious act of cultural theft, aka cultural appropriation.

Brian - so I'm not trying to pick you apart, but what does that mean?  The whole culture has to unanimously agree?  Does there have to a vote?  Surely some Black people were uncomfortable with the success of the Beastie Boys.  Should I ditch the records, should they be removed from the HOF, should their records come off the shelf?  The bar you set is unachievable.  How does a culture provide consent?

Pick away,  ¡No problemo!*

Not the whole culture, but the majority.

No vote needed- they speak for themselves.

Black and Beasties? I don't know enough about rap or hip-hop to speak on that subject.

Unreachable?  I don't think so.  Just listen to what the people have to say.

*Analyze that one!  Is my use of Spanish a form of cultural appropriation?  I don't know for sure.  We have a lot of Hispanic people in our neck of the woods and  I've heard Spanish spoken around me all my life.  When I order tacos from Santa Maria Taqueria, I inevitably use some Spanish without really thinking about it.  Am I part Hispanic?  Nope!  Has any Hispanic person ever asked me to not use Spanish?  Nope!

What if one did, would you stop using it forever?  

Context? But have you, your race, your belonging, ever been caricatured, ridiculed, been made fun of and denied all the righteous rights of a supposed “constitution?” And dismissed when offended by the caricature but more importantly, the history? Sure you have.

People go to fairs and theme parks and pay to have a caricature made of themselves.  Is this making fun of yourself or is a caricature just that?  A Caricature with zero meaning behind it?

tempo, there’s a huge difference between a casual caricature that you’ve requested in fun. That overdramatization of physical characteristics is expected. Not even close to much of the old propaganda depicting the classic stereotypes for Jews, blacks, Latinos. Many non -WASP folks.

The indian is tan w a feather?  Not sure what is dramatized other than that. To me the Caricature is fine but I'm not the demographic that cares or is bothering.

I thought you meant caricatures in the general sense, based on your comment?

I have no idea what the goddamn conversation is anymore. 

And I do dig me (some of) The Beasties

F Me In The Brain

I'm playing some Beastie Boys right now @rgambs

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

I don't think there's any hiding of the fact that it's about staying connected to the team.  And when I think of the word, for me it's first my baseball club and then it's about tribalism or tribal politics, which is much more on my mind these days than NAs.  What people like me want is to continue to use the name that we affectionately use for our fans and our team, a word that is neither racist or exclusive to NAs.  If you watch a local broadcast (of which I watch, probably 161 a year), you will notice that the word Tribe is used far more than Indians.  I will say that whatever is the new name, fans will continue to use Tribe for years to come, until we die out and our children die out. 

I get all that, but this is where we can't connect. Tribe IS used as a racist term towards aboriginals. And sure, going back 400 years, the word isn't exclusive to aboriginals, but the association is undeniable. 

I'm certain you're right that people will continue to use the term. I'm sure that's why True North decided to call the returning Winnipeg NHL team the Jets. They knew people had a massive attachment to the name. But had the original name been something unacceptable in today's climate, I would hope they would have move on. 

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

I don't think there's any hiding of the fact that it's about staying connected to the team.  And when I think of the word, for me it's first my baseball club and then it's about tribalism or tribal politics, which is much more on my mind these days than NAs.  What people like me want is to continue to use the name that we affectionately use for our fans and our team, a word that is neither racist or exclusive to NAs.  If you watch a local broadcast (of which I watch, probably 161 a year), you will notice that the word Tribe is used far more than Indians.  I will say that whatever is the new name, fans will continue to use Tribe for years to come, until we die out and our children die out. 

I get all that, but this is where we can't connect. Tribe IS used as a racist term towards aboriginals. And sure, going back 400 years, the word isn't exclusive to aboriginals, but the association is undeniable. 

I'm certain you're right that people will continue to use the term. I'm sure that's why True North decided to call the returning Winnipeg NHL team the Jets. They knew people had a massive attachment to the name. But had the original name been something unacceptable in today's climate, I would hope they would have move on. 

Can a Jew use it, considering the Twelve Tribes of Israel is a cornerstone of their history?  That's a rhetorical question, but the point is that I don't see the word as racist.  But again, I don't think the Dolan family is going to go with Tribe.  

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

F Me In The Brain said:

mrussel1 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Wait....I see the commonality here -- both are tone deaf!

https://www.indianz.com/News/2006/05/18/william_mary_to.asp

But, but, but....FLORIDA STATE!

2006.. The NCAA said the school's "Tribe" nickname was acceptable. But the use of feathers on the logo was not, the NCAA said.

what a winning argument.  Drop the mic there buddy.

Thanks buddy. 

Others have made great arguments throughout this thread which you ignore, I do not need to repeat them.  You are going to continue seeing things the way you see them.  That is OK, buddy. 

Have a great day, buddy!

Tribe to me is a small group of people.  Isn't the word Roman in it's etymology?  Any wordsworths here?

An excellent point..  Middle English: from Old French tribu or Latin tribus (singular and plural); perhaps related to tri- ‘three’ and referring to the three divisions of the early people of Rome.

Sort of like the Triumvirate of Augustus, Antony and Ledipus

as I stated before, I think the fact that we're going from Indian -> Tribe is the real issue here. In North America, it is a word associated with Native Americans. To say otherwise, I think, would be disingenuous. 

I don't think there's any hiding of the fact that it's about staying connected to the team.  And when I think of the word, for me it's first my baseball club and then it's about tribalism or tribal politics, which is much more on my mind these days than NAs.  What people like me want is to continue to use the name that we affectionately use for our fans and our team, a word that is neither racist or exclusive to NAs.  If you watch a local broadcast (of which I watch, probably 161 a year), you will notice that the word Tribe is used far more than Indians.  I will say that whatever is the new name, fans will continue to use Tribe for years to come, until we die out and our children die out. 

I get all that, but this is where we can't connect. Tribe IS used as a racist term towards aboriginals. And sure, going back 400 years, the word isn't exclusive to aboriginals, but the association is undeniable. 

I'm certain you're right that people will continue to use the term. I'm sure that's why True North decided to call the returning Winnipeg NHL team the Jets. They knew people had a massive attachment to the name. But had the original name been something unacceptable in today's climate, I would hope they would have move on. 

Can a Jew use it, considering the Twelve Tribes of Israel is a cornerstone of their history?  That's a rhetorical question, but the point is that I don't see the word as racist.  But again, I don't think the Dolan family is going to go with Tribe.  

of course Jews can use it. but they can't while chopping their hands in the air and wearing a ceremonial head dress. that's the difference.