Also, imo....people entering trades should get the same type of well-rounded education that a typical 4 year education provides, too.
At some point...people got tired of "core classes" because "this isnt what I am here for"...when in reality....yes it is. You SHOULD be there to learn more about the world, other fields, other ideas and bigger things than just your chosen workstream.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
Absolutely agree, but that kind of well-rounded education is a luxury. It shouldn't be, but it is. The part that's missing in our education is a greater emphasis on things that matter in day to day life--grammar (just read any thread on this board), basic math and most importantly, finances!
Getting back to the college discussion for a second, the whole "Why should I pay for your kid's college?" is so narrow and short-sighted. The gap between the haves and have-nots has become so expansive, and I don't mean the 1% that Bernie talks about, I mean professionals and working class. Not everybody has parents that can help out with college. A helping hand to them helps us all because just like @Vedd Hedd said, an educated population is crucial. This "us vs. them" battle within the middle and lower classes is the greatest victory for the elite.
The talk is usually all about undergrad, but grad/professional school is a bigger problem. In another 10-20 years finding a lawyer, doctor, dentist, optometrist, CPA, etc is going to be difficult, and rates are going to be astronomical. The math is difficult. 150k for post grad education alone, 5+% interest rate, starting income at 60-70k for 50hrs a week, boomer professionals trying to sell practices that haven't been updated physically or technologically since the 80's for 500k, add a personal and business mortgage and... Why even bother going to med/law/optom/dental school if it requires starting professional life with 750k debt that you have to work like a schmoe to pay off by your 50's?
My wife has paid 100k on a 130k loan and still owes 110k...and a bunch of spoiled boomers who paid 40k on 30k loans on the SAME salary (thanks to their parents hard work and the post war economy) run around whining about not wanting to pay for millennials "who don't want to work".
It's ridiculous, and it doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
Well, I am not a boomer but an X. my niece went through vet school but had undergrad through scholarships. She had loans for the vet part. We tried to talk her out of it because of the debt but it was what she wanted. She is happy and doing fine but paying debt down as fast as she can. Same as I did. I was ‘poor’ with roommates for a few years after college just to get by. It is what we all did. But I also had worked and saved for 2 years of college and went to a junior college for 2 years. So I was in good shape but I was always afraid of debt. To this day I am.
The issue is how the universities are run. That is more the issue and the escalating tuition. Let’s agree to get the antiquated way colleges are run removed and how there are so many professors doing nothing and are impossible to let go. Make the colleges efficient instead of a retirement program for many professors at age 35.
"So many professors"? You obviously are not up to date on higher education. The issue is too FEW professors, with schools instead relying more and more on adjunct labor. This robs students of the education they deserve and employees of fair wage and benefits.
If universities were actually run in an "antiquated way," they would be funded by the government adequately so that tuition was very low (or ZERO in some states) and they could support full time faculty to engage in both teaching the next generation and conducting valuable research. This is how it used to be.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
Absolutely agree, but that kind of well-rounded education is a luxury. It shouldn't be, but it is. The part that's missing in our education is a greater emphasis on things that matter in day to day life--grammar (just read any thread on this board), basic math and most importantly, finances!
Getting back to the college discussion for a second, the whole "Why should I pay for your kid's college?" is so narrow and short-sighted. The gap between the haves and have-nots has become so expansive, and I don't mean the 1% that Bernie talks about, I mean professionals and working class. Not everybody has parents that can help out with college. A helping hand to them helps us all because just like @Vedd Hedd said, an educated population is crucial. This "us vs. them" battle within the middle and lower classes is the greatest victory for the elite.
agreed....a decent society recognizes that it benefits from an educated public and it does something about it. Our system has been turned into a profit making empire and the students suffer.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
The talk is usually all about undergrad, but grad/professional school is a bigger problem. In another 10-20 years finding a lawyer, doctor, dentist, optometrist, CPA, etc is going to be difficult, and rates are going to be astronomical. The math is difficult. 150k for post grad education alone, 5+% interest rate, starting income at 60-70k for 50hrs a week, boomer professionals trying to sell practices that haven't been updated physically or technologically since the 80's for 500k, add a personal and business mortgage and... Why even bother going to med/law/optom/dental school if it requires starting professional life with 750k debt that you have to work like a schmoe to pay off by your 50's?
My wife has paid 100k on a 130k loan and still owes 110k...and a bunch of spoiled boomers who paid 40k on 30k loans on the SAME salary (thanks to their parents hard work and the post war economy) run around whining about not wanting to pay for millennials "who don't want to work".
It's ridiculous, and it doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
Well, I am not a boomer but an X. my niece went through vet school but had undergrad through scholarships. She had loans for the vet part. We tried to talk her out of it because of the debt but it was what she wanted. She is happy and doing fine but paying debt down as fast as she can. Same as I did. I was ‘poor’ with roommates for a few years after college just to get by. It is what we all did. But I also had worked and saved for 2 years of college and went to a junior college for 2 years. So I was in good shape but I was always afraid of debt. To this day I am.
The issue is how the universities are run. That is more the issue and the escalating tuition. Let’s agree to get the antiquated way colleges are run removed and how there are so many professors doing nothing and are impossible to let go. Make the colleges efficient instead of a retirement program for many professors at age 35.
"So many professors"? You obviously are not up to date on higher education. The issue is too FEW professors, with schools instead relying more and more on adjunct labor. This robs students of the education they deserve and employees of fair wage and benefits.
If universities were actually run in an "antiquated way," they would be funded by the government adequately so that tuition was very low (or ZERO in some states) and they could support full time faculty to engage in both teaching the next generation and conducting valuable research. This is how it used to be.
My brother and his wife were both professors at a big 10 school. They filled me in on how it works in the university where they worked. For instance, though a prof., he never taught a class. He was to court and present to companies in order to get contracts for research for the U. He had others teach for him. Which sounds about right as I rarely saw a prof. Until I was a junior.
And the complaint of older profs just collecting a check as long as they shot a research paper out every couple years which were done by his/her underling was a sore point. Hence why they both went the private route eventually.
I am surprised this thread is both still open and on the Porch.
I know, right????????
Up here so high I start to shake, Up here so high the sky I scrape, I've no fear but for falling down, So look out below I am falling now, Falling down,...not staying down, Could’ve held me up, rather tear me down, Drown in the river
The talk is usually all about undergrad, but grad/professional school is a bigger problem. In another 10-20 years finding a lawyer, doctor, dentist, optometrist, CPA, etc is going to be difficult, and rates are going to be astronomical. The math is difficult. 150k for post grad education alone, 5+% interest rate, starting income at 60-70k for 50hrs a week, boomer professionals trying to sell practices that haven't been updated physically or technologically since the 80's for 500k, add a personal and business mortgage and... Why even bother going to med/law/optom/dental school if it requires starting professional life with 750k debt that you have to work like a schmoe to pay off by your 50's?
My wife has paid 100k on a 130k loan and still owes 110k...and a bunch of spoiled boomers who paid 40k on 30k loans on the SAME salary (thanks to their parents hard work and the post war economy) run around whining about not wanting to pay for millennials "who don't want to work".
It's ridiculous, and it doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
Well, I am not a boomer but an X. my niece went through vet school but had undergrad through scholarships. She had loans for the vet part. We tried to talk her out of it because of the debt but it was what she wanted. She is happy and doing fine but paying debt down as fast as she can. Same as I did. I was ‘poor’ with roommates for a few years after college just to get by. It is what we all did. But I also had worked and saved for 2 years of college and went to a junior college for 2 years. So I was in good shape but I was always afraid of debt. To this day I am.
The issue is how the universities are run. That is more the issue and the escalating tuition. Let’s agree to get the antiquated way colleges are run removed and how there are so many professors doing nothing and are impossible to let go. Make the colleges efficient instead of a retirement program for many professors at age 35.
"So many professors"? You obviously are not up to date on higher education. The issue is too FEW professors, with schools instead relying more and more on adjunct labor. This robs students of the education they deserve and employees of fair wage and benefits.
If universities were actually run in an "antiquated way," they would be funded by the government adequately so that tuition was very low (or ZERO in some states) and they could support full time faculty to engage in both teaching the next generation and conducting valuable research. This is how it used to be.
My brother and his wife were both professors at a big 10 school. They filled me in on how it works in the university where they worked. For instance, though a prof., he never taught a class. He was to court and present to companies in order to get contracts for research for the U. He had others teach for him. Which sounds about right as I rarely saw a prof. Until I was a junior.
And the complaint of older profs just collecting a check as long as they shot a research paper out every couple years which were done by his/her underling was a sore point. Hence why they both went the private route eventually.
Profs do things other than teach on university campus. Some work in administration or outreach positions. If they do that they teach less or not at all. They don't "have others teach for them." They simply don't teach when they have those positions. If your brother wanted to focus on teaching he shouldn't have applied for a different job on campus. Take it from someone who currently works on one.
And if you didn't see a professor until you were a junior you were either being instructed by adjunct faculty (which is a scam on both the students and the instructor) or by a GA. I find it hard to believe that you had no profs in your first 2 years though. Even at underfunded schools or private universities where they are especially crap toward faculty, they still have profs teach 1st and 2nd year students.
I can’t imagine going through life making decisions on who I am friends with or surround myself with based on their political thoughts or beliefs. That would be a horrible boring and sad life.
You should try to understand that this is a privileged position to hold. Are you insulated from the political decisions that hurt people?
Do you not know anyone who is legally liable to be fired/harassed/discriminated agoainst for their sexuality or gender circumstances due to conservative political actions? Do you not know anyone who is legally liable to be stripped from the life and family they've built in America because of conservative political actions? Do you not know anyone who is suffering under medical issues that any other country in the first world would cover? Do you not know anyone who works full-time for a massively profitable company that still can't make ends meet, due to conservative political actions? "Politics" have real-world consequences for people, if you can't see that, then you should work to make your social circle less homogeneous.
Like ecdanc mentioned earlier, how are you going to sit down to dinner with someone as a dear friend, and then turn around the next day and sit down to dinner with someone who campaigns to keep the former from having the same rights you have?
Lol dude calm down. I can see the veins on your neck about to pop just by reading this post. If you want to preach just head down to the corner and bring a box to stand on, the rest of us are just enjoying your frantic arm waving.
That assessment speaks more to your frame of mind than it does mine.
Nah. Re-read your post. Shit’s straight up hilarious. My wife rolled her eyes and threw the phone back at me when she read it. Calm down bro, you’re going to have a stroke or some shit while the rest of us are enjoying our lives.
+1
Not that it's relevant to the topic, or important at all, but it bears stating again; if you read that as an angry outburst, it speaks more of your mindset than mine. There was no exclamation, no exhortation, no invective. It was a series of rational statements and questions. Angry outbursts don't contain language like "you should work to make your social circle less homogeneous" lol If it seemed vein-popping and stroke-inducing, then methinks you were triggered pretty hard. As a matter of fact, I don't even personally keep to that ideology. I live in rural Ohio, if I let political or religious views determine my friends, family, and acquaintances, I would be very isolated. That doesn't mean I can't understand and help explain the reasoning behind someone like ecdanc's actions, because it makes sense. It's hard to "break bread" with someone who actively campaigns to discriminate against a loved one. That shouldn't be hard to understand.
Also, imo....people entering trades should get the same type of well-rounded education that a typical 4 year education provides, too.
At some point...people got tired of "core classes" because "this isnt what I am here for"...when in reality....yes it is. You SHOULD be there to learn more about the world, other fields, other ideas and bigger things than just your chosen workstream.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
One attractive piece of trade school is many are 1-2 years and you can get to work sooner. There’s nothing stopped people from going to a community college for 2 years and getting an AA. That’s pretty much the same thing as what you’re asking for, why turn an 18 month program into 4 years? Especially when you want it to be free now. Community college is very affordable by the way. I tell anyone who is conserned about paying for college to consider 2 years at community college first.
Also, imo....people entering trades should get the same type of well-rounded education that a typical 4 year education provides, too.
At some point...people got tired of "core classes" because "this isnt what I am here for"...when in reality....yes it is. You SHOULD be there to learn more about the world, other fields, other ideas and bigger things than just your chosen workstream.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
One attractive piece of trade school is many are 1-2 years and you can get to work sooner. There’s nothing stopped people from going to a community college for 2 years and getting an AA. That’s pretty much the same thing as what you’re asking for, why turn an 18 month program into 4 years? Especially when you want it to be free now. Community college is very affordable by the way. I tell anyone who is conserned about paying for college to consider 2 years at community college first.
These are good points, and I wont argue them much. That said, a 1-2 year program wont nearly be as extensive and well rounded as a 3-4 year program. (maybe we need to rethink trying to mold this into something that is currently offered)
But my point is...most trades or AA degrees are very streamlined, and focused solely on the career. When most 4 year degrees allow for some flexibility in the first few years before the person has to decide a major. While some people know EXACTLY what they want to do for the next 50 years of their lives at 17 year old....a lot of people are unsure, and frankly unaware of what the world has to offer. High schools need to do better in this as well, but I think my goal here was to have everyone capable of the basic well rounded college degree. Electricians should know about sociology, philosophy. Business majors should know about history. History teachers should understand home economics. Etc. It just makes for a more educated person, and it seems to make people more understanding of the different career paths, as well as the different viewpoints on life.
Personally...there is a severe lack of historical knowledge in this country that is scares me.
Also, imo....people entering trades should get the same type of well-rounded education that a typical 4 year education provides, too.
At some point...people got tired of "core classes" because "this isnt what I am here for"...when in reality....yes it is. You SHOULD be there to learn more about the world, other fields, other ideas and bigger things than just your chosen workstream.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
One attractive piece of trade school is many are 1-2 years and you can get to work sooner. There’s nothing stopped people from going to a community college for 2 years and getting an AA. That’s pretty much the same thing as what you’re asking for, why turn an 18 month program into 4 years? Especially when you want it to be free now. Community college is very affordable by the way. I tell anyone who is conserned about paying for college to consider 2 years at community college first.
These are good points, and I wont argue them much. That said, a 1-2 year program wont nearly be as extensive and well rounded as a 3-4 year program. (maybe we need to rethink trying to mold this into something that is currently offered)
But my point is...most trades or AA degrees are very streamlined, and focused solely on the career. When most 4 year degrees allow for some flexibility in the first few years before the person has to decide a major. While some people know EXACTLY what they want to do for the next 50 years of their lives at 17 year old....a lot of people are unsure, and frankly unaware of what the world has to offer. High schools need to do better in this as well, but I think my goal here was to have everyone capable of the basic well rounded college degree. Electricians should know about sociology, philosophy. Business majors should know about history. History teachers should understand home economics. Etc. It just makes for a more educated person, and it seems to make people more understanding of the different career paths, as well as the different viewpoints on life.
Personally...there is a severe lack of historical knowledge in this country that is scares me.
I believe a trade school + 2 years of community college can be as well rounded as most majors in a 4 year school. The trade school will be focused like a major, the AA/community college can offer a rounded education in all the areas you mentioned and a lot more. I majored in chemistry in college. I took very few non-science (non-chemistry for that matter) classes after my first 2 years. It was very focused on my major. Really the only year I didn’t have a lot of chemistry was my first year, after that it was mostly chem classes with 1 or 2 gen ed classes spread in.
We seem to mostly agree. I think anyone who wants a trade school and a well rounded education can find it. Most probably just want to get into their career sooner though.
I also don’t think it should be free for some reasons already mentioned. And we al know nothing is free, it just means make someone else pay for it. So why make the person who decides to go to a trade school and enter a career early pay for the guy who wants to party for 4 years? Pay for what you want to do. I would agree college has gotten crazy expensive and out of control. I don’t know why more don’t consider a community college. I think we fail our kids by making that option seem like less of an education. I went for my first year, it cost $12 a unit, got my first year out of the way for under $1000. If someone’s determined to go to a 4-year the whole time, awesome, great for them, I wish them the best. But pay for it. There are other options.
Here’s the beef I have about complaining about college expense. We tell kids a 4-year school is the next natural step. That should only be the case if money isn’t an issue for you or you got an amazing scholarship. Also, living on campus is actually more expensive. Get 4 people, share a 2 bedroom apartment and it will be a lot cheaper and give you more space and privacy than a dorm. Food plans on campus are expensive. You prepay for meals, so when you don’t use them you still paid for it, and it’s still expensive even when you do use them all. A money conscious college student can do a lot better living off campus and eating $5 whole Costco chickens. That’s even if you need to move out on your own, we sell this image of moving away from home and finding yourself.
College debt could be cut in half by going to a 2-year first and living off campus the next 2.
But everyone wants that 4-year college dorm experience to find yourself at 30-40K a year. Then complain about student loans the next 30 years.
Here’s the beef I have about complaining about college expense. We tell kids a 4-year school is the next natural step. That should only be the case if money isn’t an issue for you or you got an amazing scholarship. Also, living on campus is actually more expensive. Get 4 people, share a 2 bedroom apartment and it will be a lot cheaper and give you more space and privacy than a dorm. Food plans on campus are expensive. You prepay for meals, so when you don’t use them you still paid for it, and it’s still expensive even when you do use them all. A money conscious college student can do a lot better living off campus and eating $5 whole Costco chickens. That’s even if you need to move out on your own, we sell this image of moving away from home and finding yourself.
College debt could be cut in half by going to a 2-year first and living off campus the next 2.
But everyone wants that 4-year college dorm experience to find yourself at 30-40K a year. Then complain about student loans the next 30 years.
Who wants a 4-year college dorm experience? In terms of cost, it depends on where the school is located. Housing at U of Richmond will be astronomically cheaper than at NYU.
Here’s the beef I have about complaining about college expense. We tell kids a 4-year school is the next natural step. That should only be the case if money isn’t an issue for you or you got an amazing scholarship. Also, living on campus is actually more expensive. Get 4 people, share a 2 bedroom apartment and it will be a lot cheaper and give you more space and privacy than a dorm. Food plans on campus are expensive. You prepay for meals, so when you don’t use them you still paid for it, and it’s still expensive even when you do use them all. A money conscious college student can do a lot better living off campus and eating $5 whole Costco chickens. That’s even if you need to move out on your own, we sell this image of moving away from home and finding yourself.
College debt could be cut in half by going to a 2-year first and living off campus the next 2.
But everyone wants that 4-year college dorm experience to find yourself at 30-40K a year. Then complain about student loans the next 30 years.
The meal plan options they offer are such shit. The thing is, they force the “college experience” on you at least for the first year. Having to stay on campus, needing at least the basic meal plan, etc. Oh, and “University 101” - these are the types of courses/electives where they aren’t really trying to make you well rounded, just screw you out of some money by saying it’s mandatory.
... and NEVER transfer schools. The amount of credits they tried to screw me with and make me retake (even though some of the classes were the exact same) was unbelievable when I did. I took classes over a summer to stay on track with my graduation date, but I would continually have to argue with advisors about my credits/standing/progression even after that.
Pittsburgh 2013 Cincinnati 2014 Greenville 2016 (Raleigh 2016) Columbia 2016
Comments
At some point...people got tired of "core classes" because "this isnt what I am here for"...when in reality....yes it is. You SHOULD be there to learn more about the world, other fields, other ideas and bigger things than just your chosen workstream.
An educated population is a population that has a better understanding of our world, the needs of the world, and our own country.
Just because a person is going to become a carpenter, doesnt mean they shouldnt get an education in history, science, art, etc.
Nuclear fission
www.headstonesband.com
Posters for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/117469/posters-for-sale
T-Shirts for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/149289/pj-t-shirt-trade-or-sale
If universities were actually run in an "antiquated way," they would be funded by the government adequately so that tuition was very low (or ZERO in some states) and they could support full time faculty to engage in both teaching the next generation and conducting valuable research. This is how it used to be.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And the complaint of older profs just collecting a check as long as they shot a research paper out every couple years which were done by his/her underling was a sore point. Hence why they both went the private route eventually.
Lots Lots Lots of shows.....
2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula
And if you didn't see a professor until you were a junior you were either being instructed by adjunct faculty (which is a scam on both the students and the instructor) or by a GA. I find it hard to believe that you had no profs in your first 2 years though. Even at underfunded schools or private universities where they are especially crap toward faculty, they still have profs teach 1st and 2nd year students.
Community college is very affordable by the way. I tell anyone who is conserned about paying for college to consider 2 years at community college first.
But my point is...most trades or AA degrees are very streamlined, and focused solely on the career. When most 4 year degrees allow for some flexibility in the first few years before the person has to decide a major. While some people know EXACTLY what they want to do for the next 50 years of their lives at 17 year old....a lot of people are unsure, and frankly unaware of what the world has to offer. High schools need to do better in this as well, but I think my goal here was to have everyone capable of the basic well rounded college degree. Electricians should know about sociology, philosophy. Business majors should know about history. History teachers should understand home economics. Etc. It just makes for a more educated person, and it seems to make people more understanding of the different career paths, as well as the different viewpoints on life.
Personally...there is a severe lack of historical knowledge in this country that is scares me.
Nuclear fission
The trade school will be focused like a major, the AA/community college can offer a rounded education in all the areas you mentioned and a lot more.
I majored in chemistry in college. I took very few non-science (non-chemistry for that matter) classes after my first 2 years. It was very focused on my major. Really the only year I didn’t have a lot of chemistry was my first year, after that it was mostly chem classes with 1 or 2 gen ed classes spread in.
I also don’t think it should be free for some reasons already mentioned. And we al know nothing is free, it just means make someone else pay for it. So why make the person who decides to go to a trade school and enter a career early pay for the guy who wants to party for 4 years? Pay for what you want to do. I would agree college has gotten crazy expensive and out of control. I don’t know why more don’t consider a community college. I think we fail our kids by making that option seem like less of an education. I went for my first year, it cost $12 a unit, got my first year out of the way for under $1000. If someone’s determined to go to a 4-year the whole time, awesome, great for them, I wish them the best. But pay for it. There are other options.
In terms of cost, it depends on where the school is located. Housing at U of Richmond will be astronomically cheaper than at NYU.
... and NEVER transfer schools. The amount of credits they tried to screw me with and make me retake (even though some of the classes were the exact same) was unbelievable when I did. I took classes over a summer to stay on track with my graduation date, but I would continually have to argue with advisors about my credits/standing/progression even after that.
Cincinnati 2014
Greenville 2016
(Raleigh 2016)
Columbia 2016