Question for Republifans

NewfieintheUSA

jstu39 said:

rgambs said:

jstu39 said:

NewfieintheUSA said:

mattsavard said:

Libertarian here (Fiscal conservative, socially liberal) who generally thinks BOTH the far left and right are mental. Both tend to be closed minded, use hyperbole and straw men to attack "the other team", and the rest of the country has to suffer as a result.

Ed and most other celebrities aren't forced to live in the real world, and thus preach in a manner disconnected with reality, all while living a life protected by armed security (while preaching against guns), and flying in private jets and riding in gas guzzling busses (while preaching about global warming).

They're hypocrites, but I don't let it impact my enjoyment of the music. I choose to walk away from any preachy fans, and at most shows Ed's ranting is kept pretty low-key. If Ed does get on a roll, it's always a nice time to tune him out, and go grab a beer and piss break.   

IMO everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it's not hurting someone else (including speaking their mind), and government interference (fiscally & legislatively) should be kept to a bare minimum. Those who think healthcare and college education should be provided for those who can't afford it, nobody's stopping you from voluntarily setting aside a chunk of your salary to help make that happen. No need for a federal mandate. 

Here is what I don't get about self proclaimed fiscal conservatives who are against universal health care. Let's look at the numbers.

Health care spending per capita 2018

Canada - $4,974
US - $10,586

So if the US could adopt a similar system with similar costs as Canada, in 2018 the US (between the government, companies, and individuals) could have saved $1,836,246,400,000 on health care spending. Yes that is almost $2 trillion dollars. Heck, even if it was just half way between, it would be almost $1 trillion. 

But what does that extra spending get you? A longer life? No. 

Average life expectancy
Canada - 82.96 years
US - 79.11 years

So in the US we are paying over twice the cost per year, and our life expectancy is almost 4 years less than Canada. 

But let's play the fiscally conservative card and say this wouldn't work, or doesn't make sense.

Does that cost comparison include taxes and fees used to subsidize healthcare? I honestly don’t know. What I do know is many simple things cost 2 - 3 times more based on what I hear from people in Canada. Maybe those are imports or something else. Again I am not overly educated on the topic. What I can say is if the government managed USPS loses millions while FedEx and UPS make money I don’t have much confidence is those same people running healthcare with any sort of success. I know it’s not apples to apples but just an analogy. 

That is not a wholly informed summary of the situation, you should look into it, it's quite fascinating...and very sad.

Why didn’t you put the next sentence in bold too?  It says it’s not a wholly informed summary.

Or the statistical breakdown above that clearly does not tell the whole story? 

Both we’re simply using numbers to illustrate a point using a couple lines on a complex issue. 

But to say the people ultimately in charge of something won’t impact its success is very sad indeed. 

Tell me what important parts of the story I'm missing in my statistical summary? I understand it's not a complete picture, but it is pretty telling

Hankj25

All I know about the US Health care system is that working mothers have to dress their kids up and do gofundme videos so they can afford surgeries.  Not unemployed dead beats. Working families.  And they are all over the internet. So sad. 

I’d gladly pay a little more in taxes so that everyone had a fair shot at basic healthcare. Would make the entire nation safer, healthier and probably happier.  

Don’t have the answers but do know that companies making billions while individuals can’t get coverage is distorted. Needs some serious change. 

jstu39

NewfieintheUSA said:

jstu39 said:

rgambs said:

jstu39 said:

NewfieintheUSA said:

mattsavard said:

Libertarian here (Fiscal conservative, socially liberal) who generally thinks BOTH the far left and right are mental. Both tend to be closed minded, use hyperbole and straw men to attack "the other team", and the rest of the country has to suffer as a result.

Ed and most other celebrities aren't forced to live in the real world, and thus preach in a manner disconnected with reality, all while living a life protected by armed security (while preaching against guns), and flying in private jets and riding in gas guzzling busses (while preaching about global warming).

They're hypocrites, but I don't let it impact my enjoyment of the music. I choose to walk away from any preachy fans, and at most shows Ed's ranting is kept pretty low-key. If Ed does get on a roll, it's always a nice time to tune him out, and go grab a beer and piss break.   

IMO everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it's not hurting someone else (including speaking their mind), and government interference (fiscally & legislatively) should be kept to a bare minimum. Those who think healthcare and college education should be provided for those who can't afford it, nobody's stopping you from voluntarily setting aside a chunk of your salary to help make that happen. No need for a federal mandate. 

Here is what I don't get about self proclaimed fiscal conservatives who are against universal health care. Let's look at the numbers.

Health care spending per capita 2018

Canada - $4,974
US - $10,586

So if the US could adopt a similar system with similar costs as Canada, in 2018 the US (between the government, companies, and individuals) could have saved $1,836,246,400,000 on health care spending. Yes that is almost $2 trillion dollars. Heck, even if it was just half way between, it would be almost $1 trillion. 

But what does that extra spending get you? A longer life? No. 

Average life expectancy
Canada - 82.96 years
US - 79.11 years

So in the US we are paying over twice the cost per year, and our life expectancy is almost 4 years less than Canada. 

But let's play the fiscally conservative card and say this wouldn't work, or doesn't make sense.

Does that cost comparison include taxes and fees used to subsidize healthcare? I honestly don’t know. What I do know is many simple things cost 2 - 3 times more based on what I hear from people in Canada. Maybe those are imports or something else. Again I am not overly educated on the topic. What I can say is if the government managed USPS loses millions while FedEx and UPS make money I don’t have much confidence is those same people running healthcare with any sort of success. I know it’s not apples to apples but just an analogy. 

That is not a wholly informed summary of the situation, you should look into it, it's quite fascinating...and very sad.

Why didn’t you put the next sentence in bold too?  It says it’s not a wholly informed summary.

Or the statistical breakdown above that clearly does not tell the whole story? 

Both we’re simply using numbers to illustrate a point using a couple lines on a complex issue. 

But to say the people ultimately in charge of something won’t impact its success is very sad indeed. 

Tell me what important parts of the story I'm missing in my statistical summary? I understand it's not a complete picture, but it is pretty telling

Averages can be skewed by outliers. I can only speak for me but I pay nowhere near that for healthcare per year. I am fortunate to have been (knock on wood) relatively healthy. Averages of cost and average life span over hundreds of millions of people are a bit too broad in how they impact segments of that population 

jstu39

Hankj25 said:

All I know about the US Health care system is that working mothers have to dress their kids up and do gofundme videos so they can afford surgeries.  Not unemployed dead beats. Working families.  And they are all over the internet. So sad. 

I’d gladly pay a little more in taxes so that everyone had a fair shot at basic healthcare. Would make the entire nation safer, healthier and probably happier.  

Don’t have the answers but do know that companies making billions while individuals can’t get coverage is distorted. Needs some serious change. 

I 100% agree that I would pay more so everyone would have a fair shot. My point was my lack in confidence over who would run it as I feel the money given with the best of intentions would get caught up in administrative costs and not help the people who need it. But it’s clearly not working well now for large segments of people so the conversation needs to be had and hopefully something can be done. 

NewfieintheUSA

Averages can be skewed by outliers. I can only speak for me but I pay nowhere near that for healthcare per year. I am fortunate to have been (knock on wood) relatively healthy. Averages of cost and average life span over hundreds of millions of people are a bit too broad in how they impact segments of that population 

You realize this is not just how much the individual pays. It includes government, company, and individual spending towards your health care.

blackhawks

I have a friend who is a physician in Seattle.  Per him, 1/2 his biz is people from Canada paying in cash because they don’t want to wait for procedures.  So that Canadian health care is not necessarily all it is cracked up to be.  And I work for a Canadian company and many there wish they had a private option. 

secondly, for all these people touting x Scandinavian country has successful socialist systems:   They are a country of like 5-10MM.  Not 350mm.  It is basically a small state.  Make it work in say Iowa for 10-15 years successfully then get back to me.  Their economies are significantly different than ours in that I think Norway has a surplus of 1mm/person and not a deficit as we do.  It is all apples to pumpkins.

Lastly, if you really think the govt. is going to run/do things better....this govt.....you must have been dropped on your head as a child.

Hankj25

Your Canadian citizens example is for optional procedures. Urgent procedures are not held up for weeks or months. That is a myth. Yes, there is a wait for some procedures. And that’s because you can’t buy your way to the front of the line like you can in the US. 

I travel to Canada regularly and I’ve asked a lot of questions about it. It’s not perfect but at least they don’t send families into financial ruin due to medical expenses.  

link93

The government can’t even run the VA healthcare system efficiently I’m sure they will do great running it for 350 million Americans. Doesn’t mean the current system is working for everyone though. 

blackhawks

Hankj25 said:

Your Canadian citizens example is for optional procedures. Urgent procedures are not held up for weeks or months. That is a myth. Yes, there is a wait for some procedures. And that’s because you can’t buy your way to the front of the line like you can in the US. 

I travel to Canada regularly and I’ve asked a lot of questions about it. It’s not perfect but at least they don’t send families into financial ruin due to medical expenses.  I

Optional like knee and hip replacements, etc.  which I am sure you would like to hobble in pain for 6 months possibly more as you wait on the list.  And most Canadians have a separate insurance for prescriptions, dental, eye.  I think if you ask Western Canada what they would prefer to liberal Ontario it would be entirely different.  Yes this not close to perfect.  And I am not interested in paying for mine and someone else’s...oh, I already do!

hedonist

Hankj25 said:

Your Canadian citizens example is for optional procedures. Urgent procedures are not held up for weeks or months. That is a myth. Yes, there is a wait for some procedures. And that’s because you can’t buy your way to the front of the line like you can in the US. 

I travel to Canada regularly and I’ve asked a lot of questions about it. It’s not perfect but at least they don’t send families into financial ruin due to medical expenses.  

Shit, I’ve never paid extra for priority care.

Maybe I need to look into this bribery business since it’s apparently so commonplace here...

Hankj25

So Canadians have the option to wait, and get it at a substantially lower price...

OR, pay a US doctor to do it. 

That sounds ideal to me. As opposed to the US folks without coverage who have neither option. 

blackhawks

I don’t want to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.  That is trillions.  Just like college which is trillions. It is insanity that will cripple the country.  Doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart....just steeped in reality.

rgambs

jstu39 said:

Hankj25 said:

All I know about the US Health care system is that working mothers have to dress their kids up and do gofundme videos so they can afford surgeries.  Not unemployed dead beats. Working families.  And they are all over the internet. So sad. 

I’d gladly pay a little more in taxes so that everyone had a fair shot at basic healthcare. Would make the entire nation safer, healthier and probably happier.  

Don’t have the answers but do know that companies making billions while individuals can’t get coverage is distorted. Needs some serious change. 

I 100% agree that I would pay more so everyone would have a fair shot. My point was my lack in confidence over who would run it as I feel the money given with the best of intentions would get caught up in administrative costs and not help the people who need it. But it’s clearly not working well now for large segments of people so the conversation needs to be had and hopefully something can be done. 

Timing is good, I just saw this article yesterday!
U.S. insurers and providers spent more than $800 billion in 2017 on administration, or nearly $2,500 per person - more than four times the per-capita administrative costs in Canada’s single-payer system, a new study finds.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-costs-administration/more-than-a-third-of-us-healthcare-costs-go-to-bureaucracy-idUSKBN1Z5261

rgambs

blackhawks said:

I don’t want to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.  That is trillions.  Just like college which is trillions. It is insanity that will cripple the country.  Doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart....just steeped in reality.

Hah!  You already do, obviously.

Hankj25

blackhawks said:

I don’t want to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.  That is trillions.  Just like college which is trillions. It is insanity that will cripple the country.  Doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart....just steeped in reality.

The tax cut of 2018 added trillions to our debt. We’re you as passionate about stopping that as you are about giving single mothers access to doctors?

brianlux

I would only Boo the band if Radley were sitting in on a number.

NewfieintheUSA

blackhawks said:

I don’t want to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.  That is trillions.  Just like college which is trillions. It is insanity that will cripple the country.  Doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart....just steeped in reality.

The thing is you are already paying more for the healthcare you have than you'd be paying if we had an established universal healthcare program. 

Saltzy23

Love Eddie more than anything.

Hate Trump more than anything.

Just wish Ed would dedicate 5-10 minutes to say what he wants to say each show and then get back to what we all want.

I get it, and I appreciate his passion and knowledge that he has a voice people listen to, but after like 15 minutes of rambling on and on I just wanna hear that voice sing my favorite songs.

TJ25487

link93 said:

The government can’t even run the VA healthcare system efficiently I’m sure they will do great running it for 350 million Americans. Doesn’t mean the current system is working for everyone though. 

Exactly!!!!!! They had a doctor on talk radio the other day and he said that if you want to see how well the government could run universal health care just look at the VA which is tiny compared to the amount of people in the U.S. It's been a disaster!!!!

blackhawks

Hankj25 said:

blackhawks said:

I don’t want to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.  That is trillions.  Just like college which is trillions. It is insanity that will cripple the country.  Doesn’t mean I don’t have a heart....just steeped in reality.

The tax cut of 2018 added trillions to our debt. We’re you as passionate about stopping that as you are about giving single mothers access to doctors?

I know plenty of single mothers with health care.  What is the problem?  You are playing the talking points that I don’t take the bait on.  All the sympathy stuff like every single mom is destitute or something.  That is hilarious.  

My significant other is in the health care field and has explained a lot of this to me.  What would happen, how incompetent the government is on small stuff, etc.   I talked to Dr.s that said they would retire early rather than go this route.  Where would we be then?!  It isn’t like single payer solves problems.  It creates others too that Bernie and the like don’t want to mention.

I guess I never thought I would see
the day where citizens thought/preferred the government run more parts of their life.  Flipping insanity.