The coronavirus

brianlux

Make America Sick Again!    (I'm sorry, "Still")

Mike D88

pjl44 said:

I doubt it's a coordinated message. You probably have a mix of (imo) reasonable people upset about the crazier restrictions up to (imo) unreasonable people who think we'd be fine filling the Rose Bowl tomorrow and like shouting in the street.

It's very much a coordinated effort by a few powerful players using what counts as sophisticated methods for their audience. Which is to say their OPSEC is a joke: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/04/whos-behind-the-reopen-domain-surge/

The game is to open things up as soon as possible, whether it's safe or not. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it will be dramatically more difficult to get people to cooperate on closing down a second time. So we'll be back to business permanently at that point, and at risk people will have to die. I'm not making this up, either. The trajectory of this whole effort was made clear weeks ago, when a piece appeared in The Federalist that performed a cost-benefit analysis of reopening. The conclusion of that analysis was that we should let hundreds of thousands die to save the economy. Shortly thereafter the idea spread through American conservatives like, well, a virus. Now here they are, pushing to reopen when 1) testing capacity remains woefully inadequate, 2) no treatments have been found, 3) much about the virus and its lasting effects is still unknown, and 4) the spread has hardly run its course.

The inevitable conclusion of this reopen strategy--unleashed this early--is to make that proposition from The Federalist a reality. It's human sacrifice with extra steps.

jeffbr

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Leading the pack in Scandinavia for sure! Good job!
COVID-19 Deaths per Million as of today:
Sweden: 156.45
Norway: 28.41
Finland: 17.69
Denmark: 62.84

Spiritual_Chaos

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Sweden isn't leading, but it is #10 on the most deaths/1M population due to coronavirus.  I think it was an interesting idea to see how it would play out, unfortunately people were at risk of dying.  Now - it isn't over.  Maybe other countries with a second wave or whatever will fly past Sweden in this terrible statistic.  

Regardless, I just hope this ends soon.

You ever played Mario Kart bro?

Just because Koopa is getting up to speed to lead the pack in the first curve, doesn't mean he is a better character to choose than Bowser.

We won't know the effects on countries for years to come. 

Spiritual_Chaos

jeffbr said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Leading the pack in Scandinavia for sure! Good job!
COVID-19 Deaths per Million as of today:
Sweden: 156.45
Norway: 28.41
Finland: 17.69
Denmark: 62.84

You ever played Mario Kart bro?

Just because Koopa is getting up to speed to lead the pack in the first curve, doesn't mean he is a better character to choose than Bowser.

We won't know the effects on countries for years to come. 

JimmyV

Meltdown99 said:

How long are some of you willing to be locked down for? As long as it takes? 

I'm alone in the office one day a week, working from home the rest of the time. I'm ok with continuing for as long as it takes. My worry is when things start to open back up and companies implement "sound good" social distancing policies that don't work in real life.

oftenreading

The thing we tend to forget, because we don’t much like to think about it, is that the goal of “flattening the curve” is not to make much reduction in infections, it’s to spread out the infections so that we don’t have a massive surge that overwhelms the healthcare system and leads to excess deaths due to inability to provide care. Unless a miracle occurs and we get a vaccine much sooner than is reasonable, we’ll continue to get infections and deaths for at least months to come. As long as the healthcare system isn’t overwhelmed, it probably doesn’t make that much difference whether a country gets them early or late, although of course there is some learning going on that should improve outcomes. 

Spiritual_Chaos

oftenreading said:

The thing we tend to forget, because we don’t much like to think about it, is that the goal of “flattening the curve” is not to make much reduction in infections, it’s to spread out the infections so that we don’t have a massive surge that overwhelms the healthcare system and leads to excess deaths due to inability to provide care. Unless a miracle occurs and we get a vaccine much sooner than is reasonable, we’ll continue to get infections and deaths for at least months to come. As long as the healthcare system isn’t overwhelmed, it probably doesn’t make that much difference whether a country gets them early or late, although of course there is some learning going on that should improve outcomes. 

Exactly.

“We are not in the containment phase,” said Sweden’s chief state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, last month. “We are in the mitigation phase.”


Still, even if apolitical authorities are running the show in Sweden, one might ask—or I might ask—why not start strong and then loosen up—with, say, a two-week lockdown and then a relaxation, just in case of an unseen wave? I posed this question to infectious disease specialist Johan Giesecke, who has held the post that Anders Tegnell holds today and has been among those advising the government. “I’m not sure it would change very much,” Giesecke told me. “You still have the same exponential curve when you stop the lockdown. You shift the curve two weeks to the left, but you still get the curve.” Also, Giesecke noted, even two weeks of lockdown would cause a lot of disruption to social and economic life. “

Spiritual_Chaos

An expert from Norway also said in an interview, and I badly translate, that Norway started restrictive and will loosen up while Sweden's restrictions are gradual and depending on what happens. Two differenet approaches. And in the end no one know which ones will have the best effect - on the amount of death from this or society as a whole.

wndowpayne

Meltdown99 said:

How long are some of you willing to be locked down for? As long as it takes? 

Amazed at all the peeps that can work from home..Easy to judge those that don't have that luxury..

Spiritual_Chaos

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1252696929244413959?s=20

cincybearcat

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Sweden isn't leading, but it is #10 on the most deaths/1M population due to coronavirus.  I think it was an interesting idea to see how it would play out, unfortunately people were at risk of dying.  Now - it isn't over.  Maybe other countries with a second wave or whatever will fly past Sweden in this terrible statistic.  

Regardless, I just hope this ends soon.

You ever played Mario Kart bro?

Just because Koopa is getting up to speed to lead the pack in the first curve, doesn't mean he is a better character to choose than Bowser.

We won't know the effects on countries for years to come. 

Ummm I stated as much in my post.

dignin

Mike D88 said:

pjl44 said:

I doubt it's a coordinated message. You probably have a mix of (imo) reasonable people upset about the crazier restrictions up to (imo) unreasonable people who think we'd be fine filling the Rose Bowl tomorrow and like shouting in the street.

It's very much a coordinated effort by a few powerful players using what counts as sophisticated methods for their audience. Which is to say their OPSEC is a joke: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/04/whos-behind-the-reopen-domain-surge/

The game is to open things up as soon as possible, whether it's safe or not. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it will be dramatically more difficult to get people to cooperate on closing down a second time. So we'll be back to business permanently at that point, and at risk people will have to die. I'm not making this up, either. The trajectory of this whole effort was made clear weeks ago, when a piece appeared in The Federalist that performed a cost-benefit analysis of reopening. The conclusion of that analysis was that we should let hundreds of thousands die to save the economy. Shortly thereafter the idea spread through American conservatives like, well, a virus. Now here they are, pushing to reopen when 1) testing capacity remains woefully inadequate, 2) no treatments have been found, 3) much about the virus and its lasting effects is still unknown, and 4) the spread has hardly run its course.

The inevitable conclusion of this reopen strategy--unleashed this early--is to make that proposition from The Federalist a reality. It's human sacrifice with extra steps.

I believe this to be accurate.

jeffbr

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Leading the pack in Scandinavia for sure! Good job!
COVID-19 Deaths per Million as of today:
Sweden: 156.45
Norway: 28.41
Finland: 17.69
Denmark: 62.84

You ever played Mario Kart bro?

Just because Koopa is getting up to speed to lead the pack in the first curve, doesn't mean he is a better character to choose than Bowser.

We won't know the effects on countries for years to come. 

Oh, I agree with your last post. I just wasn't sure what current measure you were using with the "Leading the pack" statement, so I picked one current indicator where that condition was true. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, each of us has lost whether it is time, money, job, health, lives, comfort of family and friends.

Spiritual_Chaos

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

rgambs said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

Doubt you really have enough authority on the subject to decide if the advice is terrible or not.

True, besides, everyone knows that plastic and children are magical and incapable of transmitting the virus. 
It's a well-known supernatural phenomenon called the Giesecke-Effect.

Show me those schools outbreaks m8.

Countries are opening up their schools now. Sweden leads the way once again. This is the 1970s law against corporal punisment of children all over again. Sweden the avant garde. Leading the pack. Ahead of the curve. ABBA.

Sweden isn't leading, but it is #10 on the most deaths/1M population due to coronavirus.  I think it was an interesting idea to see how it would play out, unfortunately people were at risk of dying.  Now - it isn't over.  Maybe other countries with a second wave or whatever will fly past Sweden in this terrible statistic.  

Regardless, I just hope this ends soon.

You ever played Mario Kart bro?

Just because Koopa is getting up to speed to lead the pack in the first curve, doesn't mean he is a better character to choose than Bowser.

We won't know the effects on countries for years to come. 

Ummm I stated as much in my post.

Yes. I was not arguing against you.

rgambs

@Spiritual_Chaos the link I posted was a well-respected research institution showing SARS-CoV-2 can remain viable for AT LEAST 3 DAYS! on hard surfaces.

Spiritual_Chaos

rgambs said:

@Spiritual_Chaos the link I posted was a well-respected research institution showing SARS-CoV-2 can remain viable for AT LEAST 3 DAYS! on hard surfaces.

Can you get infected with coronavirus after using a shopping trolley in the supermarket? What about by touching a door handle in the office, or a remote control?

These are questions that many people have been asking since the coronavirus outbreak began.

Researchers have so far come to different conclusions on how long the virus can survive on surfaces. But now a team of scientists in Germany are trying to find answers.

"So far, no transmission of the virus in supermarkets, restaurants or hairdressers has been proven," explained Bonn virologist Hendrik Streeck on the ZDF Markus Lanz talk show.

Instead, the major outbreaks have been the result of close get-togethers over a longer period of time, he said.

That's demonstrated in, for example, outbreaks that have stemmed from après-ski parties in Ischgl, at football matches in Bergamo or at carnival celebrations in the municipality of Gangelt in the Heinsberg district of North Rhine-Westphalia.

/.../

No evidence of live viruses on surfaces

Initial surveys and investigations in homes in Heinsberg have already provided some indications of how the virus works.

Streeck, who is director of the Institute of Virology at Bonn University, said he was able to detect coronavirus by swabbing remote controls, washbasins, mobile phones, toilets or door handles.

However, it has not been possible to cultivate the virus in the laboratory on the basis of these swabs. "This means that we have detected the RNA (or ribonucleic acid, which carries the virus’s genetic information) of 'dead' viruses," Streeck said.

According to his previous research results, he believes "that a door handle can only be infectious if someone has actually coughed in their hand and then reached for it.

"After that, you have to reach for the door handle yourself and touch your face," he said. It is not yet possible to say how long the virus can remain on a door handle because not enough studies have been carried out.

/.../

Virologist Christian Drosten of Berlin's Charité hospital had also previously pointed out in an NDR podcast that coronaviruses are extremely sensitive to drying out. They are also transmitted by droplet infection and must be inhaled.

Therefore, according to the virologist, there is little chance of transmission by contact with notes or coins, for example.

https://www.thelocal.de/20200402/how-german-scientists-hope-to-find-answers-on-coronavirus-in-countrys-worst-hit-spot


(So I guess the jury is sort of out on the actual effect the virus has had on surfaces. Giesecke doesn't seem to worried as long as you wash your hands often)

bbiggs

From what I’ve read, the consensus seems to be that the virus can live on hard surfaces for 3-4 days; however, the amount of virus starts to diminish almost immediately.  So by the 3rd or 4th day, the very small remaining traces may not even be enough for a person to be infected (potentially even sooner). It has to do with the half-life of the virus. Sorry I don’t have a link handy. 

what dreams

nicknyr15 said:

F Me In The Brain said:

The FDA that is approving the home test is the same FDA that said it is unlikely to catch the virus from food delivery?
The same FDA that put bread, cereal, pasta on the food pyramid?  That pushed Milk on the country as a crucial part of our diets?

Motivated by money.  I'm sure they do many fine things and I would rather have some testing vs no testing by a governing body, but I am always suspicious of the FDA 

I honestly was shocked when they said it wasn’t necessary to wipe down groceries. People touch stuff and put them back every second. How could you recommend to not wipe down anything that comes in from a store? Terrible advice 

I heard a non-FDA scientist speak about this as well, and his argument was all about how many factors would have to be in place. You're at the same store the exact same time as someone else with the virus. That sick person didn't wash his hands or sneezed or whatever. That sick person's droplet has to land on the exact can that you pick up. There were some other steps in between -- but basically said all those factors going into the risk make it very unlucky you'll get it from the can or box or whatever.

I haven't wiped down a single thing I've bought, not my packages, bags, nothing. I'm now wearing my mask, I have hand sanitizer that I apply in the car as soon as I get in, on either side of the grocery trip, I wash my hands as soon as I get home and I wash them again when I'm done putting the food away. I wash produce before it goes in the fridge. But I'm not washing packages. The virus will die before I touch it again once I'm home. If it doesn't, then I guess I'm just one really unlucky person. It's just not sustainable for me to be that hyper-vigilant.

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

The problem I have is with misinformation and misrepresented facts used to back an argument. The praying in their car while listening to a sermon on the radio claim appears to be the work of a boneheaded mayor’s misguided enforcement of a state policy guidance or directive. One in which the fine was rescinded. But keep beating that drum.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/religious-liberty-department-of-justice-backs-
churchgoers-fined-for-attending-drive-in-easter-service/

As for the “arrest” of the dad playing ball with his kid, from what I can tell, he was detained in the back of a police car and eventually sent on his way. “Arrest,” conjures up images of being finger printed, photographed, charged, held in the pokey unless bailed out or a court appearance is made. It also might have resulted in child protective services taking custody of the kid unless other arrangements had been made. But none of that happened. He was detained and the police department eventually issued an apology. If I have that wrong, please link me to a reputable news source that describes the “arrest,” in detail.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/man-handcuffed-for-playing-t-ball-with-daughter-in-empty-park/1pngzukppayy411amo4ykm44b7

https://www.newsweek.com/police-apologize-handcuffing-man-daughter-1496835

As for the gardening supplies, the governor issued a clarifying statement of which it was clearly stated that she didn’t ban the sale of gardening supplies so maybe the anger and criticism should be directed at Costco or Home Depot or whichever store is blocking their gardening supply aisle?

By all means, feel free to ignore.

I agree it was a boneheaded move. And when the topic is government overreach I don’t mind beating that drum. I’m not going to go out and protest, but when others say there hasn’t been over reach it’s completely reasonable to bring up the church example. One reason being it actually happened multiple times but only one church went to the media about it. If they just went away quietly I doubt it would have been descended. 

All the resources I’ve read indicate gardening supplies are banned in Michigan for stores of 50,000 square feet, so no it isn’t Home Depot’s decision. I don’t know any store smaller than that and is still open that sells them.

you are correct with that dad in the park. Detained is a better word than arrested. And that was a result of improper police action than a city law and government overreach. they were actually allowed there and the cops probably just didn’t know which parks were open or closed.