This is crazy. Now people are up in arms about the original Stars and Stripes?
I know right. Why do people get so upset when a business makes a business decision that doesn't hurt anyone?
When I read this (the news) I had an initial reaction. Stepped back and thought about it.
1) I don’t care what Nile chooses to do, up to them...but the fact that they backed down when Kap brought up this point tells me something about them.
2) Initially I thought Kap was an idiot. Then I though, hmmm how is it different than the southern battle flag. Then I thought of the many ways it’s way different and I’m back to Kap being a fucking idiot.
This Is stupid. The original show looked dumb but I can’t have Kap fucking around and claiming that the original US flag is inherently racist. That’s just not good math. Kap has lost his limelight and looking to get it back.
To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy
as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at
events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior
research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It
has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an
anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller
fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen
movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.)
The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three,
dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag,
among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception.
“Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries,
they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the
Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The
Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot
Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)
While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not
synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also
been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage
says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux
Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to
use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the
“altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross
flag was depicted in a 2018 flier
allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern &
Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on
horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag
in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the
trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image
for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes.
Well, the current flag is often used by "patriots" as well. But that doesn't mean that it is their symbol. Every iteration of the flag has likely had some scummy group using it as a symbol. But the point is that the Betsy Ross flag is NOT generally considered a symbol of racism by anyone except those looking for a reason to make noise. It is fairly innocuous. This entire thing is much ado 'bout nothing. Except to drive traffic to Nike.
Because that is the CURRENT flag, and wasn't used in slave days. Isn't that obvious?
Now, if this is all a fabricated ad campaign by Nike, including Kaepernick's complaint, that would change things. Otherwise... I think these historical symbols in America are a hot button issue that is actually worth debating. I think it is valid for African Americans to be touchy about American history. It's completely justified. So again, wherever they lean, I'll lean too.
Sure. But are "they" leaning, or is "he" leaning. Right now I know Kaepernick has an issue with it. Obama didn't. That's 1v1, and I'll default to the guy I trust and respect more. So Obama and Kaep disagree. The ADL and SPLC disagree. It sounds like there isn't any sort of consensus to determine that "they" are leaning. That's kind of my point. This isn't a universally recognized symbol of hate or racism. But it is keeping the Nike brand front and center.
I don't feel comfortable saying what Obama thinks at all. That photo was from 2012 apparently, and I have no clue what he thought about it then, and have no clue what he thinks about it now. But anyway, they or he, makes no difference to me TBH. Let's wait and find out, but I would say that either way, putting an old slavery-era flag on the back of a Nike was fucking really stupid, if it wasn't done so that this debate happened. I think this debate was absolutely predictable when that shoe was designed. But I'll always side with people who are discriminated against (in this context) over some stupid flag or statue or whatever from the grotesque history of the colonization of North America. I actually think it's reasonable for African Americans and First Nations to find basically everything from the history of white colonization that is stuck to modern things to be a painful or maddening reminder of what it did to them. Even as a white person, I do definitely think about that factor when I think about any of our history. And no, that doesn't mean I think history should be ignored, before someone accuses me of that, haha. I think it should never be forgotten, and if it's the context of that actual history there is no issue at all. I'm just talking about modern uses of historical symbols and what they may mean today.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
Someone should tell the record number of black women who graduated from west point this year, that the flag they will follow is a racist symbol.
we should also go house to house to seize the folded flags held by the familes of all the men and women who were buried under that flag.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Someone should tell the record number of black women who graduated from west point this year, that the flag they will follow is a racist symbol.
we should also go house to house to seize the folded flags held by the familes of all the men and women who were buried under that flag.
Has anyone ever suggested that any flag be seized from people?? This is a debate about symbols used publicly and/or currently, not about controlling what people do privately.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
Well I'm not planning on making it Custer's last stand. But none of us would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Kap. So in a way, he has created some sense of 'awareness' which leads to some more splitting of the country, which is bad. Like I said, I think we would all be better served if he used his power to try to unite and marginalize them, taking back the symbol, not splitting away. Obama tried to do that with the country, I think.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
Someone should tell the record number of black women who graduated from west point this year, that the flag they will follow is a racist symbol.
we should also go house to house to seize the folded flags held by the familes of all the men and women who were buried under that flag.
Has anyone ever suggested that any flag be seized from people?? This is a debate about symbols used publicly and/or currently, not about controlling what people do privately.
perhaps the greater debate should be had around the crass commercialisation of these symbols for profit. Not just by this attempt by Nike. but others as well.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,675
I haven't read all of the 5,432 new Kaep posts put up today but just from the ones I've glanced at, I have to say I'm surprised at the reaction to Kaepernick's efforts to shine a light on some of our less than illustrious history. Do all of you who disapprove of his actions also hate Howard Zinn's work? I'm baffled.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Someone should tell the record number of black women who graduated from west point this year, that the flag they will follow is a racist symbol.
we should also go house to house to seize the folded flags held by the familes of all the men and women who were buried under that flag.
Has anyone ever suggested that any flag be seized from people?? This is a debate about symbols used publicly and/or currently, not about controlling what people do privately.
perhaps the greater debate should be had around the crass commercialisation of these symbols for profit. Not just by this attempt by Nike. but others as well.
I think you have a pretty good point.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I haven't read all of the 5,432 new Kaep posts put up today but just from the ones I've glanced at, I have to say I'm surprised at the reaction to Kaepernick's efforts to shine a light on some of our less than illustrious history. Do all of you who disapprove of his actions also hate Howard Zinn's work? I'm baffled.
Yeah, I with you on this one Brian. I don't understand the kickback really. I mean, I do because people have explained it... I'm just surprised they're feeling that way, all things considered.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
Well I'm not planning on making it Custer's last stand. But none of us would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Kap. So in a way, he has created some sense of 'awareness' which leads to some more splitting of the country, which is bad. Like I said, I think we would all be better served if he used his power to try to unite and marginalize them, taking back the symbol, not splitting away. Obama tried to do that with the country, I think.
I understand what you're saying, but, as I've said in several other threads about a bunch of things lately, the country's already split. Irreparably, IMO. I certainly think it's easy to pick which side to be on, too. But why should Kaepernick be the bad guy here? I very much believe that he is not. He's a good guy. It's not his fault that it's so damned easy to find things in America that hearken back to atrocities committed against black people.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
Well I'm not planning on making it Custer's last stand. But none of us would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Kap. So in a way, he has created some sense of 'awareness' which leads to some more splitting of the country, which is bad. Like I said, I think we would all be better served if he used his power to try to unite and marginalize them, taking back the symbol, not splitting away. Obama tried to do that with the country, I think.
I understand what you're saying, but, as I've said in several other threads about a bunch of things lately, the country's already split. Irreparably, IMO. I certainly think it's easy to pick which side to be on, too. But why should Kaepernick be the bad guy here? I very much believe that he is not. He's a good guy. It's not his fault that it's so damned easy to find things in America that hearken back to atrocities committed against black people.
I don't think he's a bad guy. I like him a lot. If you look deeper into these pages, I defended him from the start. I just think he's wrong on this particular topic. Wrong as in, how he handled it.
I haven't read all of the 5,432 new Kaep posts put up today but just from the ones I've glanced at, I have to say I'm surprised at the reaction to Kaepernick's efforts to shine a light on some of our less than illustrious history. Do all of you who disapprove of his actions also hate Howard Zinn's work? I'm baffled.
I found Zinn interesting. I read People's history long ago. I remember thinking it was too cynical and ignored important events that didn't support his argument. I don't think it's infallible historical writing though.
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
that's funny, since you just stated the exact same argument folks had for keeping monuments and confederate flags from the civil war era in government.
"historical perspective".
What does the confederate flag have to do with this? Governments taking down confederate monuments is no where in the same league as a company choosing not to associate their brand and product with something. If Nike was trying to get the flag taken down from government institutions you may have a point.
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
Haha, “history girl”
Haha, I did think you said civil war, not revolutionary (obviously). Really didn't give it any thought, as I thought you were joking (or hoped).
Aside from the benefits of being in the Commonwealth, I think it's moronic that Canada still has any connection to the Crown. It's ludicrous.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
Haha, “history girl”
Haha, I did think you said civil war, not revolutionary (obviously).
I know, it was a bit humorous though, you gotta admit! I didn’t say it, btw, it was Mcgruff
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
Haha, “history girl”
Haha, I did think you said civil war, not revolutionary (obviously).
I know, it was a bit humorous though, you gotta admit! I didn’t say it, btw, it was Mcgruff
I know! But I didn't call myself "history girl". I called myself a "history gal." In response to mrussel1, Mr. History.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
Haha, “history girl”
Haha, I did think you said civil war, not revolutionary (obviously).
I know, it was a bit humorous though, you gotta admit! I didn’t say it, btw, it was Mcgruff
I know! But I didn't call myself "history girl". I called myself a "history gal." In response to mrussel1, Mr. History.
i hate that stupid argument. "if you don't like it, leave!". no, if I don't like it, I'll try to change it for the better.
But I still disagree with him.
I hate that argument too. It's lazy.
And Un-American.
I was with Kaep all the way when he was kneeling. He was kneeling in protest of an atrocity that was and is occurring. On this, though, no. First, he's threatening to create a very slippery slope. Racism and oppression are very intertwined with American history. A lot of people (myself included) need to learn a lot more about it. That said, it's still history and it still happened. And this flag is still part of Americana. Should MLB teams stop wearing uniforms that throw-back to when the game was segregated? It almost smells like book-burning.
Look, I'm not in a position not to tell him not to like that flag. But just about anything in our history can be connected to racism. That's both sad and reality. And I'm not convinced it makes a lot of sense for him (or any one person) to have made that decision.
And of course, it's just more silly ammo for the right to use...they're as outraged about Nike bowing to Kaep on this as they should be about kids in cages drinking out of toilets.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
Well I'm not planning on making it Custer's last stand. But none of us would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Kap. So in a way, he has created some sense of 'awareness' which leads to some more splitting of the country, which is bad. Like I said, I think we would all be better served if he used his power to try to unite and marginalize them, taking back the symbol, not splitting away. Obama tried to do that with the country, I think.
I understand what you're saying, but, as I've said in several other threads about a bunch of things lately, the country's already split. Irreparably, IMO. I certainly think it's easy to pick which side to be on, too. But why should Kaepernick be the bad guy here? I very much believe that he is not. He's a good guy. It's not his fault that it's so damned easy to find things in America that hearken back to atrocities committed against black people.
I don't think he's a bad guy. I like him a lot. If you look deeper into these pages, I defended him from the start. I just think he's wrong on this particular topic. Wrong as in, how he handled it.
Fair enough... I think he has a pretty valid point myself, clearly, and there are others who surely will too. What I really don't think is that this is "faux outrage" on his part (I don't think you were the one saying it was). I think his feelings about it are real. He's got a philosophy about it and is sticking to it.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
Well I'm not planning on making it Custer's last stand. But none of us would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Kap. So in a way, he has created some sense of 'awareness' which leads to some more splitting of the country, which is bad. Like I said, I think we would all be better served if he used his power to try to unite and marginalize them, taking back the symbol, not splitting away. Obama tried to do that with the country, I think.
I understand what you're saying, but, as I've said in several other threads about a bunch of things lately, the country's already split. Irreparably, IMO. I certainly think it's easy to pick which side to be on, too. But why should Kaepernick be the bad guy here? I very much believe that he is not. He's a good guy. It's not his fault that it's so damned easy to find things in America that hearken back to atrocities committed against black people.
I don't think he's a bad guy. I like him a lot. If you look deeper into these pages, I defended him from the start. I just think he's wrong on this particular topic. Wrong as in, how he handled it.
Fair enough... I think he has a pretty valid point myself, clearly, and there are others would surely will too. What I really don't think is that this is "faux outrage" on his part (I don't think you were the one saying it was). I think his feelings about it are real. He's got a philosophy about it and is sticking to it.
I used that phrase. I'm a cynical guy when it comes to him. I never liked him as a player (rival QB when his team was half-decent, and over-hyped next to Russell Wilson, who is still playing at the top level). I supported his right to protest and kneel during the anthem, and we had players on our team who I also supported who did so out of solidarity to Kaep. But I didn't support his cries of racism when he couldn't get a starting job in the NFL. I know my team had him in camp and he wore our jersey while working out, but his ego never would have allowed him to be a bench player and backup. Especially for the money he wanted. Anyway, he parlayed his protests into a nice Nike endorsement that kept his name in the press, and is now using that Nike endorsement to convince them to kowtow to his opinion. Keeps his name in the press again, and keeps Nike's name in the discussion as well. Again, I realize I'm cynical with this guy, but he's a blowhard and was way too over-hyped for me. But kudos for the donations he makes, and for any actual convictions he has which cause him to take actions he believes in. I just don't buy what he sells most of the time. Never have. Not because of the issues or his skin color, but because of his off-putting personality. I think he's off-base here. It's just a kooky dude's opinion and now apparently a corporate decision by Nike. Good for him and good for Nike, I guess. I wouldn't have purchased those shoes anyway. But I also won't accept that the flag is a symbol of white supremacy or hate.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
^^ hey is that right? He was in Seattle's camp and he didn't want to be a backup, and wanted starter money, after everything that was happening? I always thought no one would give him a chance. And btw, I didn't think the owners were racists for not giving him a chance, I think they lacked the cajones to have him on their team because of Trump and his minions. But if you're saying he could have been in the league, but chose to do so, that's quite a bit different.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
edited July 2019
I think we're going to need an ongoing updated list of the things we can no longer use or say or do because weakminded fearfilled lemmings use them to promote their backwards weakass ideas
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think we're going to need an ongoing updated list of the things we can no longer use or say or do because shithead dumbfucks use them to promote their backwards weakass ideas
Two are highlighted right there because we're not supposed to use them here, lol.
I love rich language but I also like the idea of not using Carlinese on forums. Not that I mind. Not that I'll never effin do it myslef, haha!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
1) I don’t care what Nile chooses to do, up to them...but the fact that they backed down when Kap brought up this point tells me something about them.
2) Initially I thought Kap was an idiot. Then I though, hmmm how is it different than the southern battle flag. Then I thought of the many ways it’s way different and I’m back to Kap being a fucking idiot.
This Is stupid. The original show looked dumb but I can’t have Kap fucking around and claiming that the original US flag is inherently racist. That’s just not good math. Kap has lost his limelight and looking to get it back.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I have a folded one in the dining room.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
That's what we call a strawman.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I was with Kaep all the way when he was kneeling. He was kneeling in protest of an atrocity that was and is occurring. On this, though, no. First, he's threatening to create a very slippery slope. Racism and oppression are very intertwined with American history. A lot of people (myself included) need to learn a lot more about it. That said, it's still history and it still happened. And this flag is still part of Americana. Should MLB teams stop wearing uniforms that throw-back to when the game was segregated? It almost smells like book-burning.
Look, I'm not in a position not to tell him not to like that flag. But just about anything in our history can be connected to racism. That's both sad and reality. And I'm not convinced it makes a lot of sense for him (or any one person) to have made that decision.
And of course, it's just more silly ammo for the right to use...they're as outraged about Nike bowing to Kaep on this as they should be about kids in cages drinking out of toilets.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14