I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.
over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:
2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration 2016: we can't put it on a running shoe
that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,382
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.
over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:
2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration 2016: we can't put it on a running shoe
that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power.
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.
over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:
2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration 2016: we can't put it on a running shoe
that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power.
I really really disagree with this (and add 3 years to your point). Normally you might be right, but not in times when extremes are in play. But not now. Things have RADICALLY changed since Trump gained office - surely you will acknowledge that. Some things change everything very quickly. Wars, depressions, revolutions... and when fascist sexual predators win the White House and empowers all the racists and assholes in the country, and calls the free press enemies of the people.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
That too. Same applies to Scruffy's joke(??) about the civil war reenactment.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
I think the point is clear. No one is arguing that Nike can't/shouldn't make the decision they want to make. I personally don't care about Nike's actual decision, although I'm sure they lost some bucks on the sunk cost of the whole thing, but it's probably just a rounding error on the P&L.
The point is though, was it not a symbol of racism in 2012? Nothing about the past has changed since then. We didn't learn anything new about Betsy Ross or the founding fathers that we didn't know in 2012. Yet Obama had no issue standing in front of the flag. But now it's a symbol of a racist time. That just seems so odd. Now if you say it's because of the white nationalists adopting it, then it gets back to my whole argument that we are letting them win by folding on the issue.
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
I think the point is clear. No one is arguing that Nike can't/shouldn't make the decision they want to make. I personally don't care about Nike's actual decision, although I'm sure they lost some bucks on the sunk cost of the whole thing, but it's probably just a rounding error on the P&L.
The point is though, was it not a symbol of racism in 2012? Nothing about the past has changed since then. We didn't learn anything new about Betsy Ross or the founding fathers that we didn't know in 2012. Yet Obama had no issue standing in front of the flag. But now it's a symbol of a racist time. That just seems so odd. Now if you say it's because of the white nationalists adopting it, then it gets back to my whole argument that we are letting them win by folding on the issue.
It may well have been a symbol for racists in 2012. But in 2012 American society wasn't where it is now and most wouldn't have been aware if it was. Again, things have changed since then. The past never changes. That is nobody's argument. What changes is how we view the past, and perceptions about what it means now. THINGS CHANGE.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.
that's funny, since you just stated the exact same argument folks had for keeping monuments and confederate flags from the civil war era in government.
"historical perspective".
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
I don't understand wtf faux outrage is supposed to be... I would think that means it is literally fake, completely contrived, for some ulterior motive. Is that what you're claiming some people are reacting with? That they are literally faking their feelings about this just to... what? Stir up the right? Stir up the left? Both? I feel like their sentiments about it are real, not faked. If they want their feelings about it to be heard by others, that doesn't make it fake, does it?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
Second mic drop.
"To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy
as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at
events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior
research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It
has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an
anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller
fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen
movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.)
The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three,
dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag,
among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception.
“Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries,
they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the
Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The
Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot
Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)
While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not
synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also
been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage
says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux
Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to
use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the
“altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross
flag was depicted in a 2018 flier
allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern &
Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on
horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag
in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the
trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image
for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes."
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
Yeah, the SPLC lost all credibility over the past year. They're a bunch of racist, women haters. That entire organization just got a smack down. I'll dismiss them just as I would any other group of crazies.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.
over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:
2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration 2016: we can't put it on a running shoe
that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power.
I really really disagree with this (and add 3 years to your point). Normally you might be right, but not in times when extremes are in play. But not now. Things have RADICALLY changed since Trump gained office - surely you will acknowledge that. Some things change everything very quickly. Wars, depressions, revolutions... and when fascist sexual predators win the White House and empowers all the racists and assholes in the country, and calls the free press enemies of the people.
yeah, it's 2019. but this stuff you folks are claiming started with trump started well before he was even elected, so I just used the election time. so the time frame is even shorter. but i guess you can move the goal posts all you want.
you guys are really reaching with this.
7 years.
SEVEN YEARS.
seven years difference is what you are saying goes from hanging behind a president being inaugurated and being offended/outraged/annoyed/slightly perplexed at it being put on a running shoe. utter nonsense I tells ya.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
Second mic drop.
To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy
as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at
events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior
research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It
has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an
anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller
fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen
movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.)
The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three,
dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag,
among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception.
“Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries,
they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the
Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The
Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot
Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)
While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not
synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also
been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage
says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux
Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to
use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the
“altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross
flag was depicted in a 2018 flier
allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern &
Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on
horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag
in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the
trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image
for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes.
Well, the current flag is often used by "patriots" as well. But that doesn't mean that it is their symbol. Every iteration of the flag has likely had some scummy group using it as a symbol. But the point is that the Betsy Ross flag is NOT generally considered a symbol of racism by anyone except those looking for a reason to make noise. It is fairly innocuous. This entire thing is much ado 'bout nothing. Except to drive traffic to Nike.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I don't understand wtf faux outrage is supposed to be... I would think that means it is literally fake, completely contrived, for some ulterior motive. Is that what you're claiming some people are reacting with? That they are literally faking their feelings about this just to... what? Stir up the right? Stir up the left? Both? I feel like their sentiments about it are real, not faked. If they want their feelings about it to be heard by others, that doesn't make it fake, does it?
people dig something up, make it into something it's not, and people react to it because that's what we do now. instead of actually thinking about it, people look at a picture, meant to incite some type of reaction (mostly anger), and people run with it without thinking about it.
if people didn't know what the betsy ross flag was in 2012, why are they all up in arms about it now? because they are being told what to think it is, and to be mad about it, and they are falling for it.
I never thought about it until now. And I'm still not affected by it. Why? because I didn't react to it first, and read about it later.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a
return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male)
American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’
symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set
on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman
and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern
Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these
symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a
time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as
the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on. No thanks.
I added to my post.
So what do you suggest? Let's say racists decide to start using this flag more (they likely will), and African Americans really view it as a symbol of hate against them. Are you going to mount the flag on your car and remind those people of slavery and discriminiation against them in the name of protecting that flag from the white supremacists? Or are you going to confront the white supremacists and nationalists/patriots head on and try to get them to stop using the symbols before you do? Me, I think I'll just follow what African Americans think (or other minorities, in the same context). Whatever they like best with shit like this, I'm good with it. Their opinion about it (in reaction to the practices of racists, white nationalists, and "patriots") is the only thing that really matters to me, and yes, that includes things related in the same way to Canada's history (I have already supported the removal of numerous statues and school names in Canada that were deemed inappropriate by First Nations). I'm not about to let random symbols from a largely dirty, deplorable past that nobody ever usually thinks about be more important than the feelings of minority groups who have suffered through history who exist now.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
Second mic drop.
To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy
as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at
events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior
research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It
has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an
anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller
fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen
movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.)
The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three,
dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag,
among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception.
“Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries,
they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the
Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The
Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot
Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)
While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not
synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also
been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage
says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux
Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to
use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the
“altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross
flag was depicted in a 2018 flier
allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern &
Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on
horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag
in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the
trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image
for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes.
Well, the current flag is often used by "patriots" as well. But that doesn't mean that it is their symbol. Every iteration of the flag has likely had some scummy group using it as a symbol. But the point is that the Betsy Ross flag is NOT generally considered a symbol of racism by anyone except those looking for a reason to make noise. It is fairly innocuous. This entire thing is much ado 'bout nothing. Except to drive traffic to Nike.
Because that is the CURRENT flag, and wasn't used in slave days. Isn't that obvious?
Now, if this is all a fabricated ad campaign by Nike, including Kaepernick's complaint, that would change things. Otherwise... I think these historical symbols in America are a hot button issue that is actually worth debating. I think it is valid for African Americans to be touchy about American history. It's completely justified. So again, wherever they lean, I'll lean too.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself.
I don't see one of those flags, myself.
it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag.
I know. I don't see a racist flag behind Obama. And my guess is he didn't either.
It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes.
"We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."
The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
Second mic drop.
To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy
as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at
events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior
research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It
has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an
anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller
fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen
movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.)
The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three,
dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag,
among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception.
“Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries,
they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the
Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The
Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot
Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)
While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not
synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also
been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage
says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux
Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to
use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the
“altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross
flag was depicted in a 2018 flier
allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern &
Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on
horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag
in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the
trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image
for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes.
Well, the current flag is often used by "patriots" as well. But that doesn't mean that it is their symbol. Every iteration of the flag has likely had some scummy group using it as a symbol. But the point is that the Betsy Ross flag is NOT generally considered a symbol of racism by anyone except those looking for a reason to make noise. It is fairly innocuous. This entire thing is much ado 'bout nothing. Except to drive traffic to Nike.
Because that is the CURRENT flag, and wasn't used in slave days. Isn't that obvious?
Now, if this is all a fabricated ad campaign by Nike, including Kaepernick's complaint, that would change things. Otherwise... I think these historical symbols in America are a hot button issue that is actually worth debating. I think it is valid for African Americans to be touchy about American history. It's completely justified. So again, wherever they lean, I'll lean too.
Sure. But are "they" leaning, or is "he" leaning. Right now I know Kaepernick has an issue with it. Obama didn't. That's 1v1, and I'll default to the guy I trust and respect more. So Obama and Kaep disagree. The ADL and SPLC disagree. It sounds like there isn't any sort of consensus to determine that "they" are leaning. That's kind of my point. This isn't a universally recognized symbol of hate or racism. But it is keeping the Nike brand front and center.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
If you watch or buy apparel from any sport your contributing to their sky high salaries, I’ve stopped watching all sports except hockey that’s the only one I watch ..
I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving.
Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
The Crown? Yes the crown your country still swears allegiance to lost....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration
2016: we can't put it on a running shoe
that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power.
-EV 8/14/93
The point is though, was it not a symbol of racism in 2012? Nothing about the past has changed since then. We didn't learn anything new about Betsy Ross or the founding fathers that we didn't know in 2012. Yet Obama had no issue standing in front of the flag. But now it's a symbol of a racist time. That just seems so odd. Now if you say it's because of the white nationalists adopting it, then it gets back to my whole argument that we are letting them win by folding on the issue.
Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.
The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.
"historical perspective".
-EV 8/14/93
you guys are really reaching with this.
7 years.
SEVEN YEARS.
seven years difference is what you are saying goes from hanging behind a president being inaugurated and being offended/outraged/annoyed/slightly perplexed at it being put on a running shoe. utter nonsense I tells ya.
-EV 8/14/93
Wonder how he really feels...
if people didn't know what the betsy ross flag was in 2012, why are they all up in arms about it now? because they are being told what to think it is, and to be mad about it, and they are falling for it.
I never thought about it until now. And I'm still not affected by it. Why? because I didn't react to it first, and read about it later.
-EV 8/14/93
But I still disagree with him.
-EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14