Kaepernick
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Toys and merchandising. Plenty of shit to peddle to kids at your local Wal-Mart and Target to get them hooked. Hell, the tobacco industry finally figured it out with the e-cigs.PJ_Soul said:The military must be concerned. American sporting events are probably their greatest propaganda vehicles after actual war. I wonder how they're going to compensate?It's a hopeless situation...0 -
They still do Take Me Out To The Ballgame at some games and I also think AtB is more of a Sunday deal at most parks.CM189191 said:
they do it at every game I've been to recently. Yankees must be the only ones who televise it?pjhawks said:
that started after 9/11 and I believe, other than special days like July 4th, only the Yankees still do it every game. I believe they have everyone do it during the playoffs as well.CM189191 said:can we get rid of god bless america during the 7th inning stretch as well? that didn't used to be a thing until recently,either
The love he receives is the love that is saved0 -
RYME said:Here is a poem written and performed by a cowboy friend of mine, who I worked for on an Arizona cattle ranch in 1995. Chris Issacs. Who has been a cattle rancher & became a really good poet. Has won several awards from the Academy of Western Artists.
Before I knew him he was a Marine. Served during but not in Viet Nam.
This is a poem he wrote about a wonderful Navajo, who was among many things, an outstanding bull rider in the rodeo. Got sent to Viet Nam but didn't make it back. Read, or just have a listen, and ponder.
https://blog.cowboypoetry.com/category/poems/michael-bia-by-chris-isaacs/
The poem is called Michael Bia
https://youtu.be/k3VItICRwSo
http://www.vvmf.org/Wall-of-Faces/3911/MICHAEL-H-BIA
It tears me up a little every time I read or hear this.
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I know plenty of very intelligent religious people. my wife being one of them. honestly, I can't reconcile that with the belief in a deity, but I also haven't walked in anyone's shoes but my own, so I can't possibly judge someone for what they believe.RYME said:
patriotism, though........Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
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Why would patriotism be any different in your inability to judge someone for what they believe, not knowing how they really feel/what their realities are?HughFreakingDillon said:
I know plenty of very intelligent religious people. my wife being one of them. honestly, I can't reconcile that with the belief in a deity, but I also haven't walked in anyone's shoes but my own, so I can't possibly judge someone for what they believe.RYME said:
patriotism, though........
I don't see how that makes sense.
I don't believe in telling people what to do, so long as they are not harming (or posing a risk to) others. If you want to burn a cross or salute a flag, it is your right. Don't push your deal on me. I pass judgements every day on things that I see -- like I would automatically assume someone burning a cross was an asshole -- but who is to say what my judgements are hold any more weight than the judgements of others.
I judge. Oh yes, I judge. I would go so far as to say I think we all judge.
Some of us just think our judgements should (or worse, need to be) be how others think as well.
*edit - I should note that, at times, I forget this basic logic and try to convince others to think how I do. This is silly, to me, and I usually correct course pretty quickly. No problem sharing my opinion, just try to remember to state it is my opinion and allow others to continue thinking what they like.
Post edited by F Me In The Brain onThe love he receives is the love that is saved0 -
as a non-believer and non-patriot:F Me In The Brain said:
Why would patriotism be any different in your inability to judge someone for what they believe, not knowing how they really feel/what their realities are?HughFreakingDillon said:
I know plenty of very intelligent religious people. my wife being one of them. honestly, I can't reconcile that with the belief in a deity, but I also haven't walked in anyone's shoes but my own, so I can't possibly judge someone for what they believe.RYME said:
patriotism, though........
I don't see how that makes sense.
I don't believe in telling people what to do, so long as they are not harming (or posing a risk to) others. If you want to burn a cross or salute a flag, it is your right. Don't push your deal on me. I pass judgements every day on things that I see -- like I would automatically assume someone burning a cross was an asshole -- but who is to say what my judgements are hold any more weight than the judgements of others.
I judge. Oh yes, I judge. I would go so far as to say I think we all judge.
Some of us just think our judgements should (or worse, need to be) be how others think as well.
I find the reaches of faith go far deeper than a sense of patriotism. there is an emotional and unknown component to it that can't be quantified. i can understand the need for faith.
patriotism is just blindly following your government and their cultivation of fear and ignorance thinking you are better for no other reason than being born in a certain geographical location.Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
That is religion too. Depending on your geographical location that will dictate your religion as well.HughFreakingDillon said:
as a non-believer and non-patriot:F Me In The Brain said:
Why would patriotism be any different in your inability to judge someone for what they believe, not knowing how they really feel/what their realities are?HughFreakingDillon said:
I know plenty of very intelligent religious people. my wife being one of them. honestly, I can't reconcile that with the belief in a deity, but I also haven't walked in anyone's shoes but my own, so I can't possibly judge someone for what they believe.RYME said:
patriotism, though........
I don't see how that makes sense.
I don't believe in telling people what to do, so long as they are not harming (or posing a risk to) others. If you want to burn a cross or salute a flag, it is your right. Don't push your deal on me. I pass judgements every day on things that I see -- like I would automatically assume someone burning a cross was an asshole -- but who is to say what my judgements are hold any more weight than the judgements of others.
I judge. Oh yes, I judge. I would go so far as to say I think we all judge.
Some of us just think our judgements should (or worse, need to be) be how others think as well.
I find the reaches of faith go far deeper than a sense of patriotism. there is an emotional and unknown component to it that can't be quantified. i can understand the need for faith.
patriotism is just blindly following your government and their cultivation of fear and ignorance thinking you are better for no other reason than being born in a certain geographical location.
Neither makes sense to me.
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Fair enough, I get what you are saying.
I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go.
Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.'
Hey, you can believe what you want. My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people. This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion.
As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event. Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country.
The love he receives is the love that is saved0 -
we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots".F Me In The Brain said:Fair enough, I get what you are saying.
I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go.
Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.'
Hey, you can believe what you want. My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people. This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion.
As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event. Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country.
I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why.
I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities.Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?HughFreakingDillon said:
we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots".F Me In The Brain said:Fair enough, I get what you are saying.
I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go.
Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.'
Hey, you can believe what you want. My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people. This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion.
As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event. Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country.
I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why.
I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities.
What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places? (Italy x2, PR x1) The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country. (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by.
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country. I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.
It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did. I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.
Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs. I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory. It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree. Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter. It is what you believe & real to you. I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.
I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes. (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)
Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism. That is OK. You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.
I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family. (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.)
It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born.
I am a Patriot. I strongly support the USA. I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump. I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.
Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
The love he receives is the love that is saved0 -
a discussion here can be different than how I talk to people because I don't have any americans in my in-person daily life, and the issue of patriotism doesn't often come up in my circle, or at my work. it just doesn't. it is quite rare to see a canadian flag flying on someone's house. it's just not an issue. it's only an issue, in my experience, when it's used as a reason to show intolerance to others and how people need to respect our traditions. then all of a sudden people seem to give a shit about "preserving our canadian heritage". AKA: genocide and oppression of minorities. But "canadian heritage" sounds nicer.
do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.
however, if it does come up, I talk as I spoke here. But it doesn't come up in the same context. people here don't speak in terms of being a patriot. that's a largely american term. they just say "canadian". I can't imagine someone going ballistic at a CFL game if someone remained seated. they'd get looks, but it would go largely unnoticed. if players knelt in the CFL, it would not be nearly as polarizing as it is in the US. not even close.
I appreciate where I live. I feel very grateful to live in Canada. That is not patriotism. that is feeling fortunate for my surroundings and my upbringing and the geographical lottery I won.
patriotism is a recruitment tool and a way to keep people in check. nothing more.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
Well said.HughFreakingDillon said:a discussion here can be different than how I talk to people because I don't have any americans in my in-person daily life, and the issue of patriotism doesn't often come up in my circle, or at my work. it just doesn't. it is quite rare to see a canadian flag flying on someone's house. it's just not an issue. it's only an issue, in my experience, when it's used as a reason to show intolerance to others and how people need to respect our traditions. then all of a sudden people seem to give a shit about "preserving our canadian heritage". AKA: genocide and oppression of minorities. But "canadian heritage" sounds nicer.
do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.
however, if it does come up, I talk as I spoke here. But it doesn't come up in the same context. people here don't speak in terms of being a patriot. that's a largely american term. they just say "canadian". I can't imagine someone going ballistic at a CFL game if someone remained seated. they'd get looks, but it would go largely unnoticed. if players knelt in the CFL, it would not be nearly as polarizing as it is in the US. not even close.
I appreciate where I live. I feel very grateful to live in Canada. That is not patriotism. that is feeling fortunate for my surroundings and my upbringing and the geographical lottery I won.
patriotism is a recruitment tool and a way to keep people in check. nothing more.
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do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.
Yes, I do think the majority of people who sing the national anthem at sporting events can tell you why they sing the anthem and why they believe in patriotism. The conversation of if it should be performed at sporting events is a different topic...
We can agree to disagree on the rest. One of the first things I did after buying my house was to dig a hole, get a flagpole & a flag, light that pole up, and proudly run the flag up the flagpole.
The dictionary can join me in disagreeing with your definition of patriotism...but it is certainly up to you to make up definitions to words that fit what you think they should mean.
Atari dashboard by richter. (That means "Have A Great Day!" in my dictionary.
)
The love he receives is the love that is saved0 -
F Me In The Brain said:do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.
Yes, I do think the majority of people who sing the national anthem at sporting events can tell you why they sing the anthem and why they believe in patriotism. The conversation of if it should be performed at sporting events is a different topic...
We can agree to disagree on the rest. One of the first things I did after buying my house was to dig a hole, get a flagpole & a flag, light that pole up, and proudly run the flag up the flagpole.
The dictionary can join me in disagreeing with your definition of patriotism...but it is certainly up to you to make up definitions to words that fit what you think they should mean.
Atari dashboard by richter. (That means "Have A Great Day!" in my dictionary. ) Definition of patriotism
:love for or devotion to one's country
what did I say that is untrue?Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
that wasn't what I asked. I asked you think people knew why they sing the national anthem SPECIFICALLY at sporting events? I stand by my assertion that the vast majority have zero clue.F Me In The Brain said:do you really think the majority of people, or even a minority, who sing the national anthem at sporting events have any clue what the connection is of patriotism to sports? no, they just do it because it's expected. like saying the lord's prayer at thanksgiving, or taking your hat off during the anthem. americans and canadians alike.
Yes, I do think the majority of people who sing the national anthem at sporting events can tell you why they sing the anthem and why they believe in patriotism. The conversation of if it should be performed at sporting events is a different topic...
We can agree to disagree on the rest. One of the first things I did after buying my house was to dig a hole, get a flagpole & a flag, light that pole up, and proudly run the flag up the flagpole.
The dictionary can join me in disagreeing with your definition of patriotism...but it is certainly up to you to make up definitions to words that fit what you think they should mean.
Atari dashboard by richter. (That means "Have A Great Day!" in my dictionary. ) Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
very well said. I don't quite understand why it bothers non-Americans that a lot of people in this country love their country and are patriotic towards it.F Me In The Brain said:
Why is a discussion here different than how you speak with people irl?HughFreakingDillon said:
we are having a discussion on a message board. I'm not walking around with a sign on my back saying "patriots are idiots".F Me In The Brain said:Fair enough, I get what you are saying.
I think there are some who would say that Patriotism is something that goes as deeply as an emotion can go.
Strong support for one's country does not necessarily mean you support a 'cultivation of fear and ignorance', and I would put out there that Patriotism does not mean that you feel 'you are better for no other reason that being born in a certain geographic area.'
Hey, you can believe what you want. My opinion is that your statement is a pretty harsh judgement on a big group of people (people who would define themselves as 'Patriotic') and that it might be slightly antagonistic toward many, many people. This sort of rhetoric is part of the problem today, in my opinion.
As stated before here, I do not think that Mr Kaepernick shows any lack of Patriotism because he chooses to kneel in silent protest during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event. Based on his actions, I believe he has a very strong support for his country....he also is working to draw attention to some things he feels need to be changed in his country.
I can understand patriotism if you are, say, a military family. hey, you gotta have a strong emotional connection to your country if you are willing to die for it. But I'm talking about the average citizen who sing the national anthem at a sporting event without even considering why. or telling others they need to take their hat off, and when you ask why, all they can utter is "it's disrespectful", but they have zero idea why.
I don't know if Kaepernick is a patriot or not. I don't think his protest has anything to do with it either way. all he's highlighting is the gross inequality in the US towards minorities.
What if (for example) you just love your country because you can look at your grandparents and see that 3 out of 4 of them came to this country from other places? (Italy x2, PR x1) The 4th grandparent saw his parents come from some other country. (Ireland)
They all came to this country to try and live better lives -- for themselves, and for their families.
Each generation has done a better than the previous one when it comes to jobs, financial stability, and education....to the point where I do things now for my family that I am sure my grandparents, were they alive, would be blown away by.
This is because of the opportunity this country allowed hard working people who took advantage of the right conditions for them, personally, and parlayed that into a better future.
I love my country. I am puzzled by the direction we are taking, and certainly dismayed by the actions of some of our citizens.
It is my opinion that not every immigrant had the same journey as my family did. I respect their opinions about their country, they are no doubt shaped by the realities that they (and theirs) experienced.
Your assumption is that the "average citizen" would not have any idea as to how to express themselves relative to their beliefs. I again find this, imo, to be presumptuous and inflammatory. It is your right to feel that way -- and to tell others you think so little of them -- but I do not happen to agree. Not sure what you are basing the opinion on, although I guess it does not matter. It is what you believe & real to you. I think if you came here, went to a sporting event, and asked people, that they would be able to tell you why they stand and salute....and why the symbol of this country is important to them.
I think if you read some of what Kaepernick has shared, he has expressed his admiration of our troops, his appreciation for what this country has given to him & many others...and at the same time that he is certainly trying to address how some are treated & how this treatment (in his opinion) is widely ignored.
He initially sat during the anthem and then moved to the sideline and kneeled, saying he felt that was showing his respect for the flag & also his belief in others noting the need for changes. (Paraphrasing, certainly, that is my recollection of what he indicated at the time.)
Overall, it seems we agree in supporting his right to kneel, his right to support causes he believes in...we disconnect on the definition of Patriotism and the belief system the 'Average American' has when it comes to Patriotism. That is OK. You can lump Patriots all together in your beliefs.
I will continue to practice Pastafarianism as my religion (jokingly) & also to stand and salute the symbol of our country, its great history, the people who have fought for us & continue to serve, and what that means to me & has meant to my family. (And, to support the rights of Kaepernick to try and cause positive change in our society, where I also agree we need many positive changes.)
It makes me smile to know that some of our neighbors to the north are so concerned about us, while at the same time thinking that the Patriots in the US are such ignorant followers of our leaders, cheering on the cultivation of ignorance....all the while thinking we are better than everyone else because of where we were born.
I am a Patriot. I strongly support the USA. I do not agree with Donald J. Trump...I did not vote for Donald J. Trump. I still strongly support and love the USA, many flaws though we have.
Keep on doing what you believe in Kaepernick, we all need to try to make it a better world...day by day.
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