Hillary won more votes for President

PJPOWER

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

Kat

And the circus continues. Director Comey was a special counsel on the Whitewater investigation and he's 0-2 now. He didn't give the final answer the GOP wanted so now it's more testimony, etc., to keep the circus going. It's sad and ridiculous and has been going on for decades. Enough.

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

1. They are against civil forfeiture of property. This is a necessary tool for both creditors and government.
2. They are against rent controls, minimum wage, government floors and ceilings on products. If I need to explain the negative net effect of these policies, then that's a whole different discussion.
3. They generally believe that the invisible hand of the market should protect the environment. They do not believe the gov't has any part of it.
4. Abolishing the fed income tax and the IRS. Not really sure who is going to pay for defense but hey, it sounds good. I guess the alternate is a use tax approaching 32% (before state sales tax). But that disproportionately benefits the wealthy and will destroy the middle class

These are just four easy things to take issue with on the economic side. Liberals get drawn to Libertarians due to the freedom of the individual piece of the platform (abortion, drug use, no death penalty, etc.) but the economic side is a conservatives wet dream. I'm a social liberal and economic moderate, and they go way too far for me.

Gern Blansten

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Funny, seems to me that anything coming FROM HRC is also just smears and twisted facts.

That's just ignorant. You hate her because Faux News tells you to hate her.

Gern Blansten

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Ledbetterman10

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Funny, seems to me that anything coming FROM HRC is also just smears and twisted facts.

That's just ignorant. You hate her because Faux News tells you to hate her.

Which is fair....because every other news organization tell you to love her.

mrussel1

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Here here. See my post above. It's all about the invisible hand of the market, when we have seen through 500 years of experience, that although the market may act rationally in the long term, it does not always in the short term, and cannot be trusted to operate unabated.

PJPOWER

Kat said:

And the circus continues. Director Comey was a special counsel on the Whitewater investigation and he's 0-2 now. He didn't give the final answer the GOP wanted so now it's more testimony, etc., to keep the circus going. It's sad and ridiculous and has been going on for decades. Enough.

That and now there may be new charges of perjury based on her statements that she "turned over all emails" during the Benghazi trial when this FBI investigation clearly showed that there were "several thousand" work related emails that were not "turned over". She most definitely has her table full...

Gern Blansten

Ledbetterman10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Funny, seems to me that anything coming FROM HRC is also just smears and twisted facts.

That's just ignorant. You hate her because Faux News tells you to hate her.

Which is fair....because every other news organization tell you to love her.

Horseshit....they all focused on the "careless disregard" comments from the FBI without giving any explanation or counterpoint.

Gern Blansten

PJPOWER said:

Kat said:

And the circus continues. Director Comey was a special counsel on the Whitewater investigation and he's 0-2 now. He didn't give the final answer the GOP wanted so now it's more testimony, etc., to keep the circus going. It's sad and ridiculous and has been going on for decades. Enough.

That and now there may be new charges of perjury based on her statements that she "turned over all emails" during the Benghazi trial when this FBI investigation clearly showed that there were "several thousand" work related emails that were not "turned over". She most definitely has her table full...

Horseshit....the FBI said there were many deleted emails that were deleted in the course of keeping ones inbox tidy. There was no evidence that emails were removed from the internal system. Also...there was no evidence that the other side of the emails were directed to be deleted. There is always a sender and receiver you know.

Gern Blansten

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Here here. See my post above. It's all about the invisible hand of the market, when we have seen through 500 years of experience, that although the market may act rationally in the long term, it does not always in the short term, and cannot be trusted to operate unabated.

Yeah their economic policy is likely worse the the GOP "trickle down" theory....we know both are failures.

mrussel1

Gern Blansten said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Here here. See my post above. It's all about the invisible hand of the market, when we have seen through 500 years of experience, that although the market may act rationally in the long term, it does not always in the short term, and cannot be trusted to operate unabated.

Yeah their economic policy is likely worse the the GOP "trickle down" theory....we know both are failures.

How many people would vote for the Libertarian when they find out that one of the key tenants of their plank would eliminate the mortgage interest deduction on their taxes? So instead of paying 16-20% income tax rate, they would be forced to pay 30-40% on every purchase...car, home, groceries, etc. Yeah.. that'll win some votes.

PJPOWER

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Here here. See my post above. It's all about the invisible hand of the market, when we have seen through 500 years of experience, that although the market may act rationally in the long term, it does not always in the short term, and cannot be trusted to operate unabated.

Yeah their economic policy is likely worse the the GOP "trickle down" theory....we know both are failures.

How many people would vote for the Libertarian when they find out that one of the key tenants of their plank would eliminate the mortgage interest deduction on their taxes? So instead of paying 16-20% income tax rate, they would be forced to pay 30-40% on every purchase...car, home, groceries, etc. Yeah.. that'll win some votes.

Maybe then there would be a little less consumer waste and frivolous spending. At least I would then be able to choose where my income goes.

jeffbr

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

1. They are against civil forfeiture of property. This is a necessary tool for both creditors and government.
2. They are against rent controls, minimum wage, government floors and ceilings on products. If I need to explain the negative net effect of these policies, then that's a whole different discussion.
3. They generally believe that the invisible hand of the market should protect the environment. They do not believe the gov't has any part of it.
4. Abolishing the fed income tax and the IRS. Not really sure who is going to pay for defense but hey, it sounds good. I guess the alternate is a use tax approaching 32% (before state sales tax). But that disproportionately benefits the wealthy and will destroy the middle class

These are just four easy things to take issue with on the economic side. Liberals get drawn to Libertarians due to the freedom of the individual piece of the platform (abortion, drug use, no death penalty, etc.) but the economic side is a conservatives wet dream. I'm a social liberal and economic moderate, and they go way too far for me.

Utopia is not an option. That's why I'm not a big L libertarian. I agree that the platform leaves much to be desired, and much of it is impractical or impossible to achieve and much of it simply won't work (given human nature). Johnson isn't an ideal candidate for a number of reasons (including stage presence, and the sound of his voice), but I think I'd rather listen to Johnson speak than Hillary shriek. And I'd rather err on the side of too much liberty, than too much government. Hillary is part of the machine. Why is it that she is constantly shrouded in scandal and always has been? Yes, partly because of the Republican bulldogs trying to make something out of nothing in many cases, but also because she just can't seem to avoid stepping in any dog shit that is remotely in her vicinity. She has always been shady, underhanded and non-transparent.

Are there flaws in the Dem party platform? Are there flaws in the Dem's candidate? It is always humorous during election cycles to see partisans fighting about the truth and righteousness of their platform or party vis a vis another. To me it is akin to watching religionists disparage each other without any awareness of the irony.

mrussel1

^^Jeff - I don't understand your comment. Was she shady as first lady? Whitewater was total BS and evolved into Lewinsky. Then she was the Senator from NY. What did she do there? Other than this email thing, what did she do that was 'shady and underhanded'? I just don't get it.

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Because things that have been in practice are running so smoothly now, lol. What policies that he has presented are you referring to?

He's a libertarian...review the libertarian platform. Basically anarchy. They match the liberals on social matters but are complete idiots on economic policy.

Here here. See my post above. It's all about the invisible hand of the market, when we have seen through 500 years of experience, that although the market may act rationally in the long term, it does not always in the short term, and cannot be trusted to operate unabated.

Yeah their economic policy is likely worse the the GOP "trickle down" theory....we know both are failures.

How many people would vote for the Libertarian when they find out that one of the key tenants of their plank would eliminate the mortgage interest deduction on their taxes? So instead of paying 16-20% income tax rate, they would be forced to pay 30-40% on every purchase...car, home, groceries, etc. Yeah.. that'll win some votes.

Maybe then there would be a little less consumer waste and frivolous spending. At least I would then be able to choose where my income goes.

Your income would be going to the same place.. taxes. The difference is that we would no longer have a progressive income tax system. When you lose that, the further down the economic chain you go, the more 'taxing' the taxes are on the payers.

Dirtie_Frank

Here is the bottom line. Classified emails DO NOT belong on a unclassified server. Whether it is state.gov, Gmail.com or HRC.org (Not sure what she used), Classified belongs on classified networks, like sgov or smil. There is a reason these things are not allowed on normal computer networks. Whether it was her or her staff that sent the first email classified, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET or TOP SECRET, it should have ended then. The sender or receiver should have contacted their Staff Security Officer to report the violation, however they continued on. There continued disregard is what has people pissed, you can call it politics, it is the truth. I have worked for and with the government to know that these things should not have happened or continued. Comey stated it in his speech yesterday that anyone that works with classified should have known this was not allowed. At the very least Clinton and her staff should have their clearance revoked.

Dirtie_Frank

Gern Blansten said:

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm fine with Hillary. I really don't understand the hatred that she gets along with the "lying/crooked" comments.

She is miles above Trump.

I don't mind Johnson as an individual....but Libertarians just don't make sense.

That's right. Many libertarian policies, in practice, will not work. Gary seems like a fine man, but he came off as underwhelming, at best, during the CNN forum given to him and Weld. He seemed to just defer to Weld.

99% of the shit against HRC is just smears and twisting of facts.

Funny, seems to me that anything coming FROM HRC is also just smears and twisted facts.

That's just ignorant. You hate her because Faux News tells you to hate her.

Again you use the "FAUX News" argument. HRC and/or her staff did mishandle classified material, there should be a punishment. I am not saying 10 years in jail, but there should be something. There will not be for the elite like her.

Gern Blansten

Dirtie_Frank said:

Here is the bottom line. Classified emails DO NOT belong on a unclassified server. Whether it is state.gov, Gmail.com or HRC.org (Not sure what she used), Classified belongs on classified networks, like sgov or smil. There is a reason these things are not allowed on normal computer networks. Whether it was her or her staff that sent the first email classified, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET or TOP SECRET, it should have ended then. The sender or receiver should have contacted their Staff Security Officer to report the violation, however they continued on. There continued disregard is what has people pissed, you can call it politics, it is the truth. I have worked for and with the government to know that these things should not have happened or continued. Comey stated it in his speech yesterday that anyone that works with classified should have known this was not allowed. At the very least Clinton and her staff should have their clearance revoked.

Right...so if someone decides to put classified information in a non classified email and does not mark it as such (this was Clinton's argument...that none of the items received or sent were "Marked" classified) then how could they possibly prosecute?

You can argue that she should have known some information was classified....but how is the receiver to know exactly? As mentioned...a lot of times these people were travelling and it just wasn't possible to use the secure systems.

Dirtie_Frank

Gern Blansten said:

Dirtie_Frank said:

Here is the bottom line. Classified emails DO NOT belong on a unclassified server. Whether it is state.gov, Gmail.com or HRC.org (Not sure what she used), Classified belongs on classified networks, like sgov or smil. There is a reason these things are not allowed on normal computer networks. Whether it was her or her staff that sent the first email classified, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET or TOP SECRET, it should have ended then. The sender or receiver should have contacted their Staff Security Officer to report the violation, however they continued on. There continued disregard is what has people pissed, you can call it politics, it is the truth. I have worked for and with the government to know that these things should not have happened or continued. Comey stated it in his speech yesterday that anyone that works with classified should have known this was not allowed. At the very least Clinton and her staff should have their clearance revoked.

Right...so if someone decides to put classified information in a non classified email and does not mark it as such (this was Clinton's argument...that none of the items received or sent were "Marked" classified) then how could they possibly prosecute?

You can argue that she should have known some information was classified....but how is the receiver to know exactly? As mentioned...a lot of times these people were travelling and it just wasn't possible to use the secure systems.

She should have reported it. People who work in classified environments know, especially people who are in charge.

The compromise of Top Secret information is expected to cause “exceptionally grave damage” to our national security. Hillary Clinton mishandled 8 Top Secret emails with 7 at the Special Access Program level which may include black projects, nuclear info, ect. This is the absolute highest level of our nations guarded secrets.

Out of the 110 classified emails, 32 chains contained Secret information. This is the second highest classification that could cause “serious damage” to our national security.

Finally, she mishandled 2,000 additional emails which were up-classified with 8 being classified at the time. These are the lowest level which would still cause irreparable harm and “damage” to our national security if disclosed.