Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
edited September 2015
I believe the procedure for linking to a youtube video that will only be a link is to first click on the little link icon above the text message box, enter your youtube (or other) link and press enter. It will be entered into your post and not be hotlinked to the video. Don't forget your warning text with it if the video is graphic. Thank you.
I read this and I watched the video that was on the HuffPo website too and it just pissed me off even more. What I didn't know was that these countries have such teeny tiny populations. I understand that they abuse migrant workers, those guys that come over from Bangladesh and Thailand thinking they're getting construction work and instead wind up becoming slaves for the contractors doing the luxury buildings. I get that they don't want to risk opening the refugee can o' worms cuz then all the migrant workers are gonna try to get in on that deal. That's why I'm saying under the EU's guidance there's got to be a way for them to legitimately (and legally) take in refugees in such a way that it won't affect the migrant workers already currently in their countries. Yea, for this scenario I'm throwing the migrant workers under the bus. Yea, I know that's fucked up. No, I don't think the way they are treated is acceptable, but it is what it is. Ideally, there would be a solution for both - and frankly I don't think it's even that hard to come up with one. Here's one: second class citizenship. Right to live and work but not to claim all social benefits. I'm pretty sure we have that here in the US. It's called residency. (I think - what's the one where your social security card says "for work only" and you can't get unemployment if you're laid off or disability if you're injured?) This way they get to keep their slave labor work force, conditions for them would improve slightly, but it wouldn't be as drastic and immediate a slash in the ruling families' wealth. Plus it would help taking some pressure off of the EU countries.
In the previous thread, there was some discussion about the virtue of pointing fingers and discussing who's to blame...and a question as to whether that was productive in helping refugees.... I think it's immensely important as the conflicts causing the crisis are still going on. We can't approach this as something we can find a solution for in the here and now, without looking at how to prevent additional refugees. The situation in Yemen is now six months old, and the entire country is falling toward a total humanitarian disaster of the exact same proportions as Syria. Where are the calls from the West to put an end to the Saudi bombings? Oh wait....all Iran's fault. Right. The situation in Syria is a proxy war. The media and some AMT members can call it a civil war all they want, but it most definitely is NOT. This cannot be boiled down to 'our countries accept some blame for causing this in the beginning, but now it's all on ISIS and Assad'. Way, way too simplistic and naive to assume that the international players no longer hold a stake. I don't know why anyone would think that. The US has just finished training and unleashed new 'moderate rebels' into the Syrian theatre, and Obama has promised to defend them with air strikes if they come under attack by anyone - including Assad. This puts the US directly on the warpath with Assad. Turkey (the same country who has been allowing ISIS reinforcements into Syria via their border), has said they are working to implement an ISIS-free / no fly zone in Northern Syria, and there have been renewed calls for Syrian no-fly zones since the years-old refugee crisis became so much more en vogue in the week since that horrific picture was published. Hawks are politicizing the crisis for all it's worth, and msm is acting as the megaphone, as always. Assholes like Stephen Harper and Chris Alexander in Canada couldn't get thru a single interview about refugees without mentioning the need for more militarism to take out the terrorists....This kind of (perfectly natural) heart-string-tugging opens the public discourse to more direct (read: military) action. Remember the chemical attacks and the red line? Same shit - we keep hearing one sided reporting on the situation on the ground there, with the only option to resolve the situation causing the crisis being the military choice. Think about who would benefit from a Syrian no fly zone. How big a threat is the ISIS air force? What happened in Libya after the no fly zone was implemented? (Ghaddafi was ousted, the country became a failed state, a homebase for extremists, and a continuing source of refugees). The West is openly training/funding/arming 'moderate' rebels to oust Assad. ISIS is working to oust Assad. The West is using air strikes in Syria to take out ISIS. Does anyone think all of three of these scenarios can play out in the best case simultaneously? The desired outcome all along has been the fall of Assad. As long as the Iran/Russia backed Assad government clings to power, and the West and her regional allies refuse to back down in their bid to install a regime that is not aligned with Iran and Russia, there will continue to be more refugees. Russia has said they will veto any no-fly zone presented to the UNSC. There have been reports over the last week of Russian marines arriving in Syria. The proxy war is going to come down to who blinks first. Considering the depth of ties between Iran/Syria/Russia, which make a lot more sense based on geography and recent history than any ties between Syria and gulf monarchies or US led coalitions ever could, I think we can see who the aggressors are, and who should be the ones to blink in order to allow these people a chance to rebuild in peace, and stem the tide of additional refugees.
EXCELLENT post!
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,750
Somehow it's just not the same now.... but I'll try.
The mayor of Vancouver (Gregor Robertson... he's totally and madly obsessed with bike lanes, but I'll give him some credit today) held a town hall meeting so that people could come and discuss what the real options are for those who want to help the refugees, how much it can cost, what it would take, what hoops have to be jumped through, etc. Very good idea I thought. If every mayor of every major city in North America did the same thing, that would probably be very helpful.
They do sometimes. It's fun, I've been to a few.
I don't understand why everyone's expected to allow them in with open arms. We've all seen the rise in violence due to the influx of illegal immigrants in Texas and New Mexico, we all support building a fence to properly screen and validate every person crossing the border, yet when it happens in a third world country, where violence runs rampant, it's expected to be allowed? Shouldn't it be more restricted and validated even more so there?
I don't blame the countries for building fences around their points of entry. I would lay out row after row of barbed wire.
Ask your self honestly if you would be ok with suddenly 100s of Iraqie immigrants living on the same road as your home, living in the yards, bathing and using the rest room in your drive way. I doubt you would be so welcoming after a very short amount of time.
We all want to pretend we would help, but I think deep down we know the truth. At least I'm honest about it. Unlike 99.9% of the rest of the world who doesn't want to "offend" anyone!
Point of entry check points are always going to exist in almost every country but the notion of building a fence or wall along an entire border is absurd, short sighted, foolish and cruel. Much has already been said about how doing so interferes with migratory patterns of wild life. Let's not forget that we are not the only species that inhabits this planet and that we* are all, literally, interdependent.
*we as in, all species
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Somehow it's just not the same now.... but I'll try.
The mayor of Vancouver (Gregor Robertson... he's totally and madly obsessed with bike lanes, but I'll give him some credit today) held a town hall meeting so that people could come and discuss what the real options are for those who want to help the refugees, how much it can cost, what it would take, what hoops have to be jumped through, etc. Very good idea I thought. If every mayor of every major city in North America did the same thing, that would probably be very helpful.
They do sometimes. It's fun, I've been to a few.
I don't understand why everyone's expected to allow them in with open arms. We've all seen the rise in violence due to the influx of illegal immigrants in Texas and New Mexico, we all support building a fence to properly screen and validate every person crossing the border, yet when it happens in a third world country, where violence runs rampant, it's expected to be allowed? Shouldn't it be more restricted and validated even more so there?
I don't blame the countries for building fences around their points of entry. I would lay out row after row of barbed wire.
Ask your self honestly if you would be ok with suddenly 100s of Iraqie immigrants living on the same road as your home, living in the yards, bathing and using the rest room in your drive way. I doubt you would be so welcoming after a very short amount of time.
We all want to pretend we would help, but I think deep down we know the truth. At least I'm honest about it. Unlike 99.9% of the rest of the world who doesn't want to "offend" anyone!
Point of entry check points are always going to exist in almost every country but the notion of building a fence or wall along an entire border is absurd, short sighted, foolish and cruel. Much has already been said about how doing so interferes with migratory patterns of wild life. Let's not forget that we are not the only species that inhabits this planet and that we* are all, literally, interdependent.
Somehow it's just not the same now.... but I'll try.
The mayor of Vancouver (Gregor Robertson... he's totally and madly obsessed with bike lanes, but I'll give him some credit today) held a town hall meeting so that people could come and discuss what the real options are for those who want to help the refugees, how much it can cost, what it would take, what hoops have to be jumped through, etc. Very good idea I thought. If every mayor of every major city in North America did the same thing, that would probably be very helpful.
They do sometimes. It's fun, I've been to a few.
I don't understand why everyone's expected to allow them in with open arms. We've all seen the rise in violence due to the influx of illegal immigrants in Texas and New Mexico, we all support building a fence to properly screen and validate every person crossing the border, yet when it happens in a third world country, where violence runs rampant, it's expected to be allowed? Shouldn't it be more restricted and validated even more so there?
I don't blame the countries for building fences around their points of entry. I would lay out row after row of barbed wire.
Ask your self honestly if you would be ok with suddenly 100s of Iraqie immigrants living on the same road as your home, living in the yards, bathing and using the rest room in your drive way. I doubt you would be so welcoming after a very short amount of time.
We all want to pretend we would help, but I think deep down we know the truth. At least I'm honest about it. Unlike 99.9% of the rest of the world who doesn't want to "offend" anyone!
Point of entry check points are always going to exist in almost every country but the notion of building a fence or wall along an entire border is absurd, short sighted, foolish and cruel. Much has already been said about how doing so interferes with migratory patterns of wild life. Let's not forget that we are not the only species that inhabits this planet and that we* are all, literally, interdependent.
*we as in, all species
Don't engage b-lux.that's what it wants.
I'm just giving my tongue a break. I keep biting it.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Fair enough. You said you 'might have missed it', that's where I sensed sarcasm...it's been a bit of a theme around here lately (not from you) to question the actions, integrity, and intentions of posters who try to share information.....felt like mine was being called out. Since that's not the case, I apologize for the tone in my response.
(edit: not sure why you edited your post. I did misinterpret your tone - this post is my apology for the tone in my response).
Post edited by Drowned Out on
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Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
Too much personal animosity going on in this thread, snide comments, etc. Maybe some people need to take a break and maybe some people need to stop baiting. The topic is important and I don't want to lock this. Maybe focus on what are the solutions?
Falling down,...not staying down
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,750
Too much personal animosity going on in this thread, snide comments, etc. Maybe some people need to take a break and maybe some people need to stop baiting. The topic is important and I don't want to lock this. Maybe focus on what are the solutions?
Point taken, thanks Kat. Catch you all later.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I watched the first half of the Syrian girl Video. It's really intriguing and made me check myself. One thing I always try to keep in mind is to check other sources besides US media and it served as a reminder that in this case, European media would fall into the same boat.
Stephen Harper basically says he doesn't want to open up more to Syrian refugees because they could be terrorists (he also wants to make it illegal for Canadians to travel to Syria, if you can believe that... not sure where that lies right now, legally - anyone?).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Stephen Harper basically says he doesn't want to open up more to Syrian refugees because they could be terrorists (he also wants to make it illegal for Canadians to travel to Syria, if you can believe that... not sure where that lies right now, legally - anyone?).
It is an embarrassment and it is out of touch with what the majority of Canadians want and he will pay for it at the polls in October. We can properly screen more refugees in a shorter period of time given the proper resources. But that demands political will from our government, which has none.
Stephen Harper basically says he doesn't want to open up more to Syrian refugees because they could be terrorists (he also wants to make it illegal for Canadians to travel to Syria, if you can believe that... not sure where that lies right now, legally - anyone?).
It is an embarrassment and it is out of touch with what the majority of Canadians want and he will pay for it at the polls in October. We can properly screen more refugees in a shorter period of time given the proper resources. But that demands political will from our government, which has none.
It is an embarrassment. And I don't think anyone ever suggested that refugees not be properly screened. But if someone is waiting to do that while people are dying, that is inexcusable. Screen then, but ensure their health and safety too. What that will take is money and man power. And Harper has the ability to provide both, but is dragging his feet because of his attitude towards Syrians.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
seeems rather hollow when you consider that there are about 4 million from the various hot spots? How many are currently in camps in the surrounding countries? Can we do soemthing to help ease that suffering?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
seeems rather hollow when you consider that there are about 4 million from the various hot spots? How many are currently in camps in the surrounding countries? Can we do soemthing to help ease that suffering?
According to the UN, including 'internally displaced' peoples (within their own countries), it's 60 million. More than during WW2.
Since my human smuggling thread is a failure, I'll post this here:
So the new news is that the father of the poor child, Alan Kurdi, who washed up on the beach (we all know the photo now, right?) may have been a human smuggler himself. Apparently some woman from the boat that sank is claiming that he actually captained the boat and worked for those collecting money from the refugees on that boat. Supposedly, the original captain was telling the refugees who paid to escape on the doomed vessel that it was safe, since if it weren't Abdullah Kurdi, one of his crew, wouldn't be bringing his own kids along for the ride. Kurdi also might have even caused the boat to capsize by going too fast. HOWEVER, Abdullah Kurdi is denying it outright, saying that he only took over steering the boat when the captain abandoned ship (nice fucking guy, right?). Though the woman stating this, who also lost her two children in the accident, is making some pretty specific claims.
So..... while this should change nothing in terms of the refugee crisis (the big picture) IMO, nor in terms of the fact that Alan Kurdi likely died as a result of Canada's rejection of his family's request for sponsorship, perhaps it does change people's perceptions. This man's dead child was the symbol of the desperation of the refugees. Does he now become the symbol of the offensiveness of those taking advantage of the situation??? What are other people's thoughts? I admit my heart sank a bit when I heard this news, because I can imagine that it could be damaging to perceptions.
What I'm also wondering is where does everyone stand when it comes to people taking money to help get refugees out of war zones?? Is this necessarily immoral?
How much are they paying? is an important question to many people on the fence of accepting refugees into their life
I suppose that's supposed to be sarcasm? Or no? I'm not really sure with you sometimes, lol. But it's an interesting question, because a lot of people trying to help are focusing on what to do once the refugees are safe. But the help they really need right now is getting the hell out of dodge, and if money is what it will take, then that is probably what people should give to help. But I have heard smuggling amounts all over the board, and there are various ways they're doing it too, some much MUCH more dangerous than others (and some simply deadly, like that truck full of dead bodies on the side of the highway in Hungary). I've heard amounts from $200 - $3000.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Kyle, I assume your finger pointing comment is in regards to mine... Let me be clear: you've always been able to point a finger to explain a situation, AS WELL as how it pertains to how a people or government should or shouldn't behave. My issue is with people who leave this as a point of discussion, and don't actually relate it to what should be done. If recognizing fault is a premise to be used to justify an action or inaction, and that action or inaction is mentioned, then it's absolutely worth posting. It's America's fault is a poor statement without a "therefore" at the end.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Hey guys they opened it back up let's not get the thread closed again ok?
Personally I think there's a danger in painting the refugees as angels - it would be better if the reports reflected reality, mainly that it's a bunch of human beings fleeing a dangerous situation and so difficult choices need to be made. We call them people smugglers, sure. But that's not the only way to look at them. There's assholes profiteering for sure, and risking people's lives. But like I said, difficult situation.
Hey guys they opened it back up let's not get the thread closed again ok?
Personally I think there's a danger in painting the refugees as angels - it would be better if the reports reflected reality, mainly that it's a bunch of human beings fleeing a dangerous situation and so difficult choices need to be made. We call them people smugglers, sure. But that's not the only way to look at them. There's assholes profiteering for sure, and risking people's lives. But like I said, difficult situation.
Agreed! Too important a subject to get bogged down in bogdownia.
Yes, very difficult situation. How do you assess the needs, determine who gets to go where? This would be a good time for the U.N. to rise above and make a good unified effort to sort this out.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I believe the procedure for linking to a youtube video that will only be a link is to first click on the little link icon above the text message box, enter your youtube (or other) link and press enter. It will be entered into your post and not be hotlinked to the video. Don't forget your warning text with it if the video is graphic. Thank you.
can we get a sticky with how to do this?
i don't think we should have to search for this post for the procedure. i know i will post a video of something sometime in the future and forget how we are supposed to do it.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
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Yea, for this scenario I'm throwing the migrant workers under the bus. Yea, I know that's fucked up. No, I don't think the way they are treated is acceptable, but it is what it is. Ideally, there would be a solution for both - and frankly I don't think it's even that hard to come up with one. Here's one: second class citizenship. Right to live and work but not to claim all social benefits. I'm pretty sure we have that here in the US. It's called residency. (I think - what's the one where your social security card says "for work only" and you can't get unemployment if you're laid off or disability if you're injured?) This way they get to keep their slave labor work force, conditions for them would improve slightly, but it wouldn't be as drastic and immediate a slash in the ruling families' wealth. Plus it would help taking some pressure off of the EU countries.
I'm not caffeinated enough for this discussion.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
*warning - graphic
https://youtube.com/watch?v=pHFnvFbThDE
Nice to get some inside perspective on how to help.
*we as in, all species
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
(edit: not sure why you edited your post. I did misinterpret your tone - this post is my apology for the tone in my response).
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RA26220150910
And I don't think anyone ever suggested that refugees not be properly screened. But if someone is waiting to do that while people are dying, that is inexcusable. Screen then, but ensure their health and safety too. What that will take is money and man power. And Harper has the ability to provide both, but is dragging his feet because of his attitude towards Syrians.
Nice to see the US helping out.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
So the new news is that the father of the poor child, Alan Kurdi, who washed up on the beach (we all know the photo now, right?) may have been a human smuggler himself. Apparently some woman from the boat that sank is claiming that he actually captained the boat and worked for those collecting money from the refugees on that boat. Supposedly, the original captain was telling the refugees who paid to escape on the doomed vessel that it was safe, since if it weren't Abdullah Kurdi, one of his crew, wouldn't be bringing his own kids along for the ride. Kurdi also might have even caused the boat to capsize by going too fast. HOWEVER, Abdullah Kurdi is denying it outright, saying that he only took over steering the boat when the captain abandoned ship (nice fucking guy, right?). Though the woman stating this, who also lost her two children in the accident, is making some pretty specific claims.
So..... while this should change nothing in terms of the refugee crisis (the big picture) IMO, nor in terms of the fact that Alan Kurdi likely died as a result of Canada's rejection of his family's request for sponsorship, perhaps it does change people's perceptions. This man's dead child was the symbol of the desperation of the refugees. Does he now become the symbol of the offensiveness of those taking advantage of the situation??? What are other people's thoughts? I admit my heart sank a bit when I heard this news, because I can imagine that it could be damaging to perceptions.
What I'm also wondering is where does everyone stand when it comes to people taking money to help get refugees out of war zones?? Is this necessarily immoral?
Here is an article on it (yes, there is a photo of the drowned Alan Kurdi in it):
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/alan-kurdis-father-worked-with-human-smuggler-and-captained-boat-that-capsized-survivor-says
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Personally I think there's a danger in painting the refugees as angels - it would be better if the reports reflected reality, mainly that it's a bunch of human beings fleeing a dangerous situation and so difficult choices need to be made.
We call them people smugglers, sure. But that's not the only way to look at them. There's assholes profiteering for sure, and risking people's lives. But like I said, difficult situation.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Yes, very difficult situation. How do you assess the needs, determine who gets to go where? This would be a good time for the U.N. to rise above and make a good unified effort to sort this out.
2016: Lexington and Wrigley 1
i don't think we should have to search for this post for the procedure. i know i will post a video of something sometime in the future and forget how we are supposed to do it.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."