I dunno about that. It opens a door to a whole other side of the law regarding shit like assault or even murder with household objects. I mean the minor would get a PINS for sure so thats already a punishment on the parents - in cases where the gun is not secured they should get charged with a fine or something for having the weapon not secured or charged with a child endangerment.
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
Well no I wouldn't suggest that. I'd be happy if they just took away his right to own guns. It was a tragic case, no intent at all but something has to be done to prevent further tragedies like that happening. If people are going to insist on the right to bear arms then the least they can do is be responsible about it and not endanger innocent lives
So my kid for whatever reason STEALS my firearm and I m not allowed to own a firearm anymore? are you guys serious? My guns are very secure but what if the lock is somehow picked? It s Somehow my fault and i lose the right to own firearms? This is crazy talk.
I dunno about that. It opens a door to a whole other side of the law regarding shit like assault or even murder with household objects. I mean the minor would get a PINS for sure so thats already a punishment on the parents - in cases where the gun is not secured they should get charged with a fine or something for having the weapon not secured or charged with a child endangerment.
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
Well no I wouldn't suggest that. I'd be happy if they just took away his right to own guns. It was a tragic case, no intent at all but something has to be done to prevent further tragedies like that happening. If people are going to insist on the right to bear arms then the least they can do is be responsible about it and not endanger innocent lives
So my kid for whatever reason STEALS my firearm and I m not allowed to own a firearm anymore? are you guys serious? My guns are very secure but what if the lock is somehow picked? It s Somehow my fault and i lose the right to own firearms? This is crazy talk.
Key point you have been choosing to overlook. You can readily show solid securement yes? No reasonable assertion could be made your weaponery is not secured.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I believe it would not be considered murder but instead criminal negligence or possibly even reckless endangerment. These can already be applied if your actions causes serious harm or death, even if it is not your intention. In criminal negligence, your actions expose someone to serious risk that you could have and should have foreseen but you did not. With reckless endangerment, you did foresee it but did nothing to avert the risk. If you take no, or inadequate, steps to secure your gun and your child steals it and kills someone, I would guess it could be considered negligence. If, instead, you know that your child is angry at someone and has been talking about killing them and you still take no steps to secure your gun and the child kills that person, it is likely reckless endangerment. Both already carry the potential for imprisonment, but I have no idea what the potential effect on your ability to legally purchase a gun is.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I believe it would not be considered murder but instead criminal negligence or possibly even reckless endangerment. These can already be applied if your actions causes serious harm or death, even if it is not your intention. In criminal negligence, your actions expose someone to serious risk that you could have and should have foreseen but you did not. With reckless endangerment, you did foresee it but did nothing to avert the risk. If you take no, or inadequate, steps to secure your gun and your child steals it and kills someone, I would guess it could be considered negligence. If, instead, you know that your child is angry at someone and has been talking about killing them and you still take no steps to secure your gun and the child kills that person, it is likely reckless endangerment. Both already carry the potential for imprisonment, but I have no idea what the potential effect on your ability to legally purchase a gun is.
If convicted and those charges are felonies you can never legally purchase or possess.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Again I agree with you! We're on a roll. Parents being charged for their kids' crimes. Unless the parents had a direct hand in their actions or knew about their plans ahead of time and failed to try and stop them, I completely disagree with this tactic generally. It really bothers me that it seems to be an idea that's taken seriously by a lot of people, including some lawmakers.
Unsecured weapons in a household with minors. You dont think a parent bears some kind of criminal responibility if it is then taken by a minor child and a crime is commited?
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I would consider that having a l hand in the child's crime if we are talking about murder or assault with a gun. However, I would not support the parents being charged with the murder - the actual crime. More like something along the lines of child or public engangerment or negligence. While the parent's actions accommodated a crime through irresponsibility, i don't think they should be found guilty of the crime itself. They'd be fucking morons though, and fuel for the anti-gun argument.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I dunno about that. It opens a door to a whole other side of the law regarding shit like assault or even murder with household objects. I mean the minor would get a PINS for sure so thats already a punishment on the parents - in cases where the gun is not secured they should get charged with a fine or something for having the weapon not secured or charged with a child endangerment.
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
Well no I wouldn't suggest that. I'd be happy if they just took away his right to own guns. It was a tragic case, no intent at all but something has to be done to prevent further tragedies like that happening. If people are going to insist on the right to bear arms then the least they can do is be responsible about it and not endanger innocent lives
So my kid for whatever reason STEALS my firearm and I m not allowed to own a firearm anymore? are you guys serious? My guns are very secure but what if the lock is somehow picked? It s Somehow my fault and i lose the right to own firearms? This is crazy talk.
Key point you have been choosing to overlook. You can readily show solid securement yes? No reasonable assertion could be made your weaponery is not secured.
Yes, I thought I was quite clear that I was speaking about people who could not be deemed responsible gun owners. So settle down mcgruff, the pro-gun lobby is always so defensive when they think we're trying to take their guns away...
A gunman opened fire as a band played at a California biker bar, leaving 3 dead and 6 wounded
By EUGENE GARCIA, AMY TAXIN and JOHN ANTCZAK
10 mins ago
TRABUCO CANYON, Calif. (AP) — The cover band at the historic Southern California biker bar had just launched into their next song when the gunman walked in and began firing.
Some froze, others ran as the bullets flew inside busy Cook's Corner, which was holding its weekly spaghetti night on Wednesday.
After shooting his estranged wife, the man shot and killed her dinner companion, then began firing at random, Orange County Sheriff Don Barnes said Thursday. He went outside to retrieve more guns from his car and kept firing, Barnes said, killing a total of three people and wounding six others.
Within minutes, deputies arrived and killed the shooter, Orange County Sheriff’s Sgt. Frank Gonzalez said.
As the shooting began, M Street band keyboardist Mark Johnson hid behind a speaker with his wife, singer Debbie Johnson.
“Once he started shooting, it was very indiscriminate,” Mark Johnson said.
The Orange County District Attorney’s Office identified the gunman as John Snowling, 59, a former police officer. Those killed included a man who approached Snowling in the parking lot after Snowling went outside to get more guns. Barnes said he had three handguns and a shotgun, all acquired legally.
Betty Fruichantie told NBC4 Los Angeles that she was with the shooter's wife, Marie Snowling, who fell to the floor. With bullets flying past her face, Fruichantie ran and hid in a restroom with others.
“And when we came out, people were on the floor and people were like over people trying to help them, just holding their wounds,” she said.
Brandon Koslowsky told KTLA-TV that he barricaded himself in the liquor room with a bartender and another employee when the shooting began. As the shooting continued outside the bar, he came out and tried to help people, including a wounded woman who died.
“I don’t know their names. You know, there’s a lot of blood,” he said.
Marie Snowling was shot in the jaw and improved from critical to stable condition, Orange County Supervisor Don Wagner said Thursday afternoon. One of the six wounded people was released from the hospital.
Marie Snowling cited irreconcilable differences in filing for divorce in December 2022 after being married to John Snowling for more than three decades, Ventura County online court records show. The case was scheduled for a mandatory settlement conference in November.
Her father, William Mosby, of Lake Forest, told The Orange County Register, that John Snowling could not “deal with the divorce.”
He had been living in Ohio on a 7-acre property with his dog, according to his divorce lawyer, Tristan teGroen. He said there was "no murmur of domestic violence or threats or anything like that from the other attorney.”
“I did not see anything on the horizon that would give me an inkling of what happened last night,” teGroen said. “He struck me as a calm, collected, articulate man with a good memory and an animal lover.”
Kenneth H.J. Henjum, Marie Snowling’s attorney, said in an email that her family was in shock and was requesting privacy.
John Snowling had worked for the police department in Ventura, a coastal city north of Los Angeles, from 1986 to 2014. Ventura Police Chief Darin Schindler issued a statement expressing condolences to the victims' families, the survivors and the deputies who responded.
Cook’s Corner has long been a place for motorcyclists to gather for live music, open-mic nights or just a cold beer after a long ride. It calls itself the oldest motorcycle bar in Southern California and it sits at the intersection of two picturesque highways in an area of scrubby hills and bike paths. It attracts everyone from motorcycle riders on choppers to avid cyclists in Lycra and families with young children.
“It’s a Disneyland for bikers,” Kamran Amiri, who has been a Cook’s Corner regular for two decades, said Thursday.
Amiri, who was there Wednesday but left before the shooting, said the bar is “just full of the friendliest people” who go there to chat over a beer, listen to music or show off their motorcycles.
Hours before the shooting, rows of motorcycles and bikes framed the gravel entrance where plaques describe the bar’s history.
“We’ve experienced major earthquakes, forest fires, floods, recessions and other disasters. We’ve gotten through all of them and came out stronger. Ride down and check us out,” the bar says on its website.
M Street, which plays popular songs from the 1960s to today, had performed at Cook's Corner before in the bar's sprawling outdoor area, but this was the band's first time on the stage inside, Mark and Debbie Johnson said.
The band finished up one song, and people who had been dancing sat down, holding egg shakers the band had given out, Debbie Johnson said.
Two people in the crowd were celebrating birthdays, and the band had wished them happy birthday and promised a special song later in the evening, she said.
It never came.
“We launched into our next song and somewhere in the middle of it this man just walks in, doesn’t say a word, and just starts shooting,” she said.
Some bargoers fled and ran up a nearby hill.
Mark Johnson said that once the gunman went outside, he and others shut the doors. About 30 people hunkered down inside. He said he called 911 while watching the shooter go around the outside of the building.
“We opened the back gate to see where he was and he immediately started shooting,” he said.
He and his wife said two of their fellow bandmembers were wounded by gunfire and were expected to survive. The fifth member was not injured, they said.
“I have never been so happy to see dozens of police cars heading my way,” Debbie Johnson said. “We were fish in a very small barrel.”
_____
Taxin reported from Santa Ana, Calif., and Antczak from Los Angeles. Christopher Weber in Los Angeles contributed to this report.
___
This version corrects the spelling of the name of the attorney for John Snowling.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,285
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,285
Just a friendly reminder, guys:
It goes like this: fewer is used to refer to number among things that are counted,
as in "fewer doors" and "fewer problems"; less is used to refer to
quantity or amount among things that are measured, as in "less time" and
"less effort."
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It goes like this: fewer is used to refer to number among things that are counted,
as in "fewer doors" and "fewer problems"; less is used to refer to
quantity or amount among things that are measured, as in "less time" and
"less effort."
Yea, yea, yea, my depleted braincells and misfiring synapsis can't remember grammar rules. I'm lucky to remember how to write my name. And even with constant reminders, I still get it wrong. I use "less" in that context like some people use irregardless.
Oh, and military style assualt weapons don't factor in to mass shootings. Not at all.
The sheriff said investigators believe the gunman acted alone and wore both a tactical vest and mask. He was armed with an AR-15 style rifle and a handgun.
And at least the thoughts and prayers weren't forgotten.
“I’m offering prayers to the families of the victims and am on my way to meet with (Jacksonville Sheriff T.K. Waters) for answers,” Davis posted Saturday.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It goes like this: fewer is used to refer to number among things that are counted,
as in "fewer doors" and "fewer problems"; less is used to refer to
quantity or amount among things that are measured, as in "less time" and
"less effort."
Yea, yea, yea, my depleted braincells and misfiring synapsis can't remember grammar rules. I'm lucky to remember how to write my name. And even with constant reminders, I still get it wrong. I use "less" in that context like some people use irregardless.
Honestly, I'm not trying to be the grammar police.
I can't spell for sheight.
My wife gives me friendly reminders like this all time:
Me: "I will heat the water slow" Her "You mean you will heat the water slowly."
Me: "I feel badly about being late." Her: "You mean you feel bad about being late."
Fucking English language.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
My guns are very secure but what if the lock is somehow picked? It s Somehow my fault and i lose the right to own firearms? This is crazy talk.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
TRABUCO CANYON, Calif. (AP) — The cover band at the historic Southern California biker bar had just launched into their next song when the gunman walked in and began firing.
Some froze, others ran as the bullets flew inside busy Cook's Corner, which was holding its weekly spaghetti night on Wednesday.
After shooting his estranged wife, the man shot and killed her dinner companion, then began firing at random, Orange County Sheriff Don Barnes said Thursday. He went outside to retrieve more guns from his car and kept firing, Barnes said, killing a total of three people and wounding six others.
Within minutes, deputies arrived and killed the shooter, Orange County Sheriff’s Sgt. Frank Gonzalez said.
As the shooting began, M Street band keyboardist Mark Johnson hid behind a speaker with his wife, singer Debbie Johnson.
“Once he started shooting, it was very indiscriminate,” Mark Johnson said.
The Orange County District Attorney’s Office identified the gunman as John Snowling, 59, a former police officer. Those killed included a man who approached Snowling in the parking lot after Snowling went outside to get more guns. Barnes said he had three handguns and a shotgun, all acquired legally.
Betty Fruichantie told NBC4 Los Angeles that she was with the shooter's wife, Marie Snowling, who fell to the floor. With bullets flying past her face, Fruichantie ran and hid in a restroom with others.
“And when we came out, people were on the floor and people were like over people trying to help them, just holding their wounds,” she said.
Brandon Koslowsky told KTLA-TV that he barricaded himself in the liquor room with a bartender and another employee when the shooting began. As the shooting continued outside the bar, he came out and tried to help people, including a wounded woman who died.
“I don’t know their names. You know, there’s a lot of blood,” he said.
Marie Snowling was shot in the jaw and improved from critical to stable condition, Orange County Supervisor Don Wagner said Thursday afternoon. One of the six wounded people was released from the hospital.
Marie Snowling cited irreconcilable differences in filing for divorce in December 2022 after being married to John Snowling for more than three decades, Ventura County online court records show. The case was scheduled for a mandatory settlement conference in November.
Her father, William Mosby, of Lake Forest, told The Orange County Register, that John Snowling could not “deal with the divorce.”
He had been living in Ohio on a 7-acre property with his dog, according to his divorce lawyer, Tristan teGroen. He said there was "no murmur of domestic violence or threats or anything like that from the other attorney.”
“I did not see anything on the horizon that would give me an inkling of what happened last night,” teGroen said. “He struck me as a calm, collected, articulate man with a good memory and an animal lover.”
Kenneth H.J. Henjum, Marie Snowling’s attorney, said in an email that her family was in shock and was requesting privacy.
John Snowling had worked for the police department in Ventura, a coastal city north of Los Angeles, from 1986 to 2014. Ventura Police Chief Darin Schindler issued a statement expressing condolences to the victims' families, the survivors and the deputies who responded.
Cook’s Corner has long been a place for motorcyclists to gather for live music, open-mic nights or just a cold beer after a long ride. It calls itself the oldest motorcycle bar in Southern California and it sits at the intersection of two picturesque highways in an area of scrubby hills and bike paths. It attracts everyone from motorcycle riders on choppers to avid cyclists in Lycra and families with young children.
“It’s a Disneyland for bikers,” Kamran Amiri, who has been a Cook’s Corner regular for two decades, said Thursday.
Amiri, who was there Wednesday but left before the shooting, said the bar is “just full of the friendliest people” who go there to chat over a beer, listen to music or show off their motorcycles.
Hours before the shooting, rows of motorcycles and bikes framed the gravel entrance where plaques describe the bar’s history.
“We’ve experienced major earthquakes, forest fires, floods, recessions and other disasters. We’ve gotten through all of them and came out stronger. Ride down and check us out,” the bar says on its website.
M Street, which plays popular songs from the 1960s to today, had performed at Cook's Corner before in the bar's sprawling outdoor area, but this was the band's first time on the stage inside, Mark and Debbie Johnson said.
The band finished up one song, and people who had been dancing sat down, holding egg shakers the band had given out, Debbie Johnson said.
Two people in the crowd were celebrating birthdays, and the band had wished them happy birthday and promised a special song later in the evening, she said.
It never came.
“We launched into our next song and somewhere in the middle of it this man just walks in, doesn’t say a word, and just starts shooting,” she said.
Some bargoers fled and ran up a nearby hill.
Mark Johnson said that once the gunman went outside, he and others shut the doors. About 30 people hunkered down inside. He said he called 911 while watching the shooter go around the outside of the building.
“We opened the back gate to see where he was and he immediately started shooting,” he said.
He and his wife said two of their fellow bandmembers were wounded by gunfire and were expected to survive. The fifth member was not injured, they said.
“I have never been so happy to see dozens of police cars heading my way,” Debbie Johnson said. “We were fish in a very small barrel.”
_____
Taxin reported from Santa Ana, Calif., and Antczak from Los Angeles. Christopher Weber in Los Angeles contributed to this report.
___
This version corrects the spelling of the name of the attorney for John Snowling.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Gun violence thread number 2 was shut down so here we are
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Florida's deranged idea of an economic stimulus package.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/26/us/jacksonville-florida-shooting-multiple-fatalities/index.html
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
GUN VIOLENCE IN AMERICA
Oh, and military style assualt weapons don't factor in to mass shootings. Not at all.
The sheriff said investigators believe the gunman acted alone and wore both a tactical vest and mask. He was armed with an AR-15 style rifle and a handgun.
And at least the thoughts and prayers weren't forgotten.
“I’m offering prayers to the families of the victims and am on my way to meet with (Jacksonville Sheriff T.K. Waters) for answers,” Davis posted Saturday.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Her "You mean you will heat the water slowly."
Her: "You mean you feel bad about being late."
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"