Murder peaked in the 90s? Huh. Right at the height of crack wars. What happened then as a result?
Oh thats right. BAN on uzis. Also a finite ban on "assualt rifles.
you realize uzis are legal to own since 2004? uzis weren't really used in that many crimes; rather they were dramatized by hollywood. in 2013 murders in this country were the lowest since 1968.
Gruffy, Neither CNN nor Harvard make the leap that more guns equals less crime.
CNN reports that a study shows that gun-related homicides are down in the U.S. Then it goes on in its last two sentences to share that "the United States still has a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries" and that "The United States ... has a higher rate of gun ownership than any other developed country."
The student-edited paper that the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, which is known among its circle as a forum for conservative and libertarian legal scholarship, published in 2007 also doesn't state that more guns equals less crime, because in spite of their politics (Kates is a libertarian, and Mauser is a Canadian gun-rights advocate), they cannot prove that as a fact. What they can claim (again, not prove) is that according to their observations (which given their politics and the publication likely have some confirmational bias), more guns do not necessarily equal more crime and less guns do not necessarily equal less crime. I read the entire PDF. It's interesting, but the findings have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Anyway, who's with me and Andy Parker (father of Alison Parker) on Sept. 10 to do "whatever it takes ... to shame legislators into doing something about closing loopholes in background checks and making sure crazy people don’t get guns."
Gruffy, I've read your posts. I know that you also think that there's a problem. I know that even you think we need to get Congress to act on this aspect (namely, gun safety and keeping psychos away from firearms). Hell, you had some good ideas about ways we can fix this. As a responsible gun owner, please call Congress and share them.
Let's remind Congress that they work for us and not the special interest groups and corporate lobbyists, especially on this issue. It's too important to ignore; it's literally a matter of life and death.
"Anyway, who's with me and Andy Parker (father of Alison Parker) on Sept. 10 to do "whatever it takes ... to shame legislators into doing something about closing loopholes in background checks and making sure crazy people don’t get guns.""
I'm all for this bud! it's a tough uphill battle though. i'm from liberal new jersey where we have a ton of gun control laws that appear to be working. Like I've said, I just don't want to ban any guns or tax the hell out of ammo. Maybe i'll run for congress...Do I have your vote?
"Anyway, who's with me and Andy Parker (father of Alison Parker) on Sept. 10 to do "whatever it takes ... to shame legislators into doing something about closing loopholes in background checks and making sure crazy people don’t get guns.""
I'm all for this bud! it's a tough uphill battle though. i'm from liberal new jersey where we have a ton of gun control laws that appear to be working. Like I've said, I just don't want to ban any guns or tax the hell out of ammo. Maybe i'll run for congress...Do I have your vote?
This isn't about banning guns, which will never happen in our lifetime in this country. The NRA et al. are too big to let that happen. Do you actually worry about that?
If so, I'll equate it to the pro-choice people who worry that abortion will be banned on a national level. That will also never happen in our lifetime in this country. Planned Parenthood et al. are too big.
I can't vote for you, bud. Way out of my district -- plus you talk shit about Riot Act.
"Anyway, who's with me and Andy Parker (father of Alison Parker) on Sept. 10 to do "whatever it takes ... to shame legislators into doing something about closing loopholes in background checks and making sure crazy people don’t get guns.""
I'm all for this bud! it's a tough uphill battle though. i'm from liberal new jersey where we have a ton of gun control laws that appear to be working. Like I've said, I just don't want to ban any guns or tax the hell out of ammo. Maybe i'll run for congress...Do I have your vote?
This isn't about banning guns, which will never happen in our lifetime in this country. The NRA et al. are too big to let that happen. Do you actually worry about that?
If so, I'll equate it to the pro-choice people who worry that abortion will be banned on a national level. That will also never happen in our lifetime in this country. Planned Parenthood et al. are too big.
I can't vote for you, bud. Way out of my district -- plus you talk shit about Riot Act.
hey they banned a hell of a lot of guns here in new jersey so it can happen. And it happened in 1994. I do talk shit about riot act....terrible record. pearl jam should reimburse me every time they play something shitty off that album.
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
Murder peaked in the 90s? Huh. Right at the height of crack wars. What happened then as a result?
Oh thats right. BAN on uzis. Also a finite ban on "assualt rifles.
you realize uzis are legal to own since 2004? uzis weren't really used in that many crimes; rather they were dramatized by hollywood. in 2013 murders in this country were the lowest since 1968.
Tell that to local pd in my hometown who gathered them from project housing during that time frame. Both projects in seperate parts of the city have been torn down since.
One they described as uzi alley.
The full auto version is no longer legal for sale since 86 when it was outlawed , gasp, by Reagan!!!! So if as you say not many were used in crime why the need to outlaw them?
2004 the year the assault weapon ban was allowed to expire. Shame. We were on the right track.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Murder peaked in the 90s? Huh. Right at the height of crack wars. What happened then as a result?
Oh thats right. BAN on uzis. Also a finite ban on "assualt rifles.
you realize uzis are legal to own since 2004? uzis weren't really used in that many crimes; rather they were dramatized by hollywood. in 2013 murders in this country were the lowest since 1968.
Tell that to local pd in my hometown who gathered them from project housing during that time frame. Both projects in seperate parts of the city have been torn down since.
One they described as uzi alley.
The full auto version is no longer legal for sale since 86 when it was outlawed , gasp, by Reagan!!!! So if as you say not many were used in crime why the need to outlaw them?
2004 the year the assault weapon ban was allowed to expire. Shame. We were on the right track.
first off I've voted democrat every year since I was allowed to vote (1996) so I could care less that Reagan signed that bill into law; although it was a nice bipartisan comprise with republicans the majority in the senate and democrats controlling the house. a major reason the machine gun ban met so little resistance was a 1934 law passed a month after outlaws Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow were killed in a hail of machine gun bullets. It required machine gun owners to pay a hefty tax, be fingerprinted and be listed on a national registry. So in essence since it was so expensive to have a fully automatic weapon there were in fact not a lot here in the country. And did you also know that the NRA backed this bill? second, I have zero problem with fully automatic weapons being banned. There's no reason for a us citizen to have one.
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
edited September 2015
The greater point is the isnt a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime.
Crime itself is seeing a decline for many reasons.
The articles you posted infer that the overall % of population THAT OWN GUNS has grown dramatically as the overall number of guns has. Its not factually true.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The greater point is the isnt a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime.
Crime itself is seeing a decline for many reasons.
The articles you posted infer that the overall % of population has grown dramatically as the overall number of guns has. Its not factually true.
wait I reread your comment a few times now; you are saying that the overall population of this country and number of guns in this country have not gone up?
And you are saying there isn't a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime. But a lot of anti-gunners here say that the more guns equal more crime. So if we've added literally over 100 million guns and crime hasn't gone up then doesn't that prove that theory wrong?
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
The greater point is the isnt a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime.
Crime itself is seeing a decline for many reasons.
The articles you posted infer that the overall % of population has grown dramatically as the overall number of guns has. Its not factually true.
wait I reread your comment a few times now; you are saying that the overall population of this country and number of guns in this country have not gone up?
And you are saying there isn't a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime. But a lot of anti-gunners here say that the more guns equal more crime. So if we've added literally over 100 million guns and crime hasn't gone up then doesn't that prove that theory wrong?
meant overall % of gun owners in direct correaltion to number of guns sold.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
pretty crazy stats I just found: (https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp) * Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
* In 1976, the Washington, D.C. City Council passed a law generally prohibiting residents from possessing handguns and requiring that all firearms in private homes be (1) kept unloaded and (2) rendered temporally inoperable via disassembly or installation of a trigger lock. The law became operative on Sept. 24, 1976.[33] [34]
* On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, struck down this law as unconstitutional.[35]
* During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.[37]
* A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends.[94]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[130]
Post edited by mcgruff10 on
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
One locale does not reflect the articles proposition.
Simple. The article suggests or infers that its was the increase of guns sold that led to thid when in fact the % of gun owners is on the decline. You have less people buying the majority ofvthe guns.
So tell me, how does the same or roughly the same number of people biying guns reflect the decrease in crime? Vigilantes are they?
It fails to look at a broader scope of reasons. It may have played some kind of role but not in the way they portray it.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
One locale does not reflect the articles proposition.
Simple. The article suggests or infers that its was the increase of guns sold that led to thid when in fact the % of gun owners is on the decline. You have less people buying the majority ofvthe guns.
So tell me, how does the same or roughly the same number of people biying guns reflect the decrease in crime? Vigilantes are they?
It fails to look at a broader scope of reasons. It may have played some kind of role but not in the way they portray it.
I would infer that if less people are buying guns but the same people are buying more guns and the crime rate is going way down than the legal gun owner in America is more responsible than ever. Now I ve posted numerous articles, polls, statistical evidence, and Even came up with proposals to combat gun violence. What about you Einstein? Do you merely try to discredit/argue/pick apart everything I say/post or do you have an actual plan that is supported with either voter approval or statistical evidence? Or are you just firing from an emotional hip? How can you dismiss the statistic that in 2000 nearly one million Americans used firearms to defend themselves and others from crime?
Post edited by mcgruff10 on
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
I found myself debating this issue with the American actor Mark Pellegrino the other day, which was quite bizarre but when talking about something like this the concept of celebrity is somewhat redundant, he was just another person with strongly held opinions with which I happened to disagree. Anyway, his defence of the right to bear arms is his staunch belief that guns in the right hands (those of responsible law-abiding citizens) are a force for good. For example, he suggested that had such a citizen been present during the cinema shootings fewer people might have died. He gave another example in which someone drove their car into a café in Texas and then started shooting people. Apparently there was a woman in the café who could have stopped him, had she not left her gun in her car. He himself claims to have chased off a robber from his apartment block using his own legally held gun.
Now I'm quite a naive idealist and my general view would be that I'd like to get rid of all guns. I do realise how unrealistic this is though and so it can be quite hard to combat Mark's view that the very fact that this would be impossible is the reason why it's so important for citizens to have the right to arm themselves.
Even if we then say ok we at least need better background checks, we all know that if someone wants a gun they'll find a way to get one. Sure all the kids have to do is take their parents guns, as I believe happened with a number of the school shootings.
So what's the answer???
Registration of all sales with serial # attached (there is a reason guns have them). Universal backround checks for all sales. Every weapon submits its "fingerprint" which is the bullet fired from it to FBI for cataloging. When that weapon is later used in crime and proven so , that person is held accountable. You no longer own that weapon for whatever reason and not inform authorities? Tough shit. You go to jail too.
parents of kids who steal the parents guns for crime are charged with same charges as kids.
Extensive training for each owner with regular retesting or recertification (thats what "well regulated militia " means in that amendment).
No more ccw "reciprocity" between states. you dont live in my state and want to carry here? Certify here.
Weapons ARE tools. Designed with the intent to cause bodily harm up to and including death. The seriousness of this fact as it applies to wider society far outweighs your haphazard, inapporiate storage and handling if these tools. If you cant show on a regular basis safe practice in all aspects of ownership then buy a bat or other means of protection.
Had hoped this might garner some kind of comment.
Think it got lost amongst the critically important album rankings convo.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I found myself debating this issue with the American actor Mark Pellegrino the other day, which was quite bizarre but when talking about something like this the concept of celebrity is somewhat redundant, he was just another person with strongly held opinions with which I happened to disagree. Anyway, his defence of the right to bear arms is his staunch belief that guns in the right hands (those of responsible law-abiding citizens) are a force for good. For example, he suggested that had such a citizen been present during the cinema shootings fewer people might have died. He gave another example in which someone drove their car into a café in Texas and then started shooting people. Apparently there was a woman in the café who could have stopped him, had she not left her gun in her car. He himself claims to have chased off a robber from his apartment block using his own legally held gun.
Now I'm quite a naive idealist and my general view would be that I'd like to get rid of all guns. I do realise how unrealistic this is though and so it can be quite hard to combat Mark's view that the very fact that this would be impossible is the reason why it's so important for citizens to have the right to arm themselves.
Even if we then say ok we at least need better background checks, we all know that if someone wants a gun they'll find a way to get one. Sure all the kids have to do is take their parents guns, as I believe happened with a number of the school shootings.
So what's the answer???
Registration of all sales with serial # attached (there is a reason guns have them). Universal backround checks for all sales. Every weapon submits its "fingerprint" which is the bullet fired from it to FBI for cataloging. When that weapon is later used in crime and proven so , that person is held accountable. You no longer own that weapon for whatever reason and not inform authorities? Tough shit. You go to jail too.
parents of kids who steal the parents guns for crime are charged with same charges as kids.
Extensive training for each owner with regular retesting or recertification (thats what "well regulated militia " means in that amendment).
No more ccw "reciprocity" between states. you dont live in my state and want to carry here? Certify here.
Weapons ARE tools. Designed with the intent to cause bodily harm up to and including death. The seriousness of this fact as it applies to wider society far outweighs your haphazard, inapporiate storage and handling if these tools. If you cant show on a regular basis safe practice in all aspects of ownership then buy a bat or other means of protection.
Had hoped this might garner some kind of comment.
Think it got lost amongst the critically important album rankings convo.
Solution enough? Einstein?
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Thank god that mickeyrat is as smart as mcgruff. Otherwise he'd have nobody to debate with.
I am not converting anything. I know 2 people who have converted semi auto weapons to fully auto. One was an ak47. I do not remember what the other one was.
My uncle and cousin, who converted the ak47, said that it wasn't a difficult process at all. My only question was why do it? Their response was "because we could."
You openly admit to someone committing a felony, a FELONY. Who's smart?!?
I found myself debating this issue with the American actor Mark Pellegrino the other day, which was quite bizarre but when talking about something like this the concept of celebrity is somewhat redundant, he was just another person with strongly held opinions with which I happened to disagree. Anyway, his defence of the right to bear arms is his staunch belief that guns in the right hands (those of responsible law-abiding citizens) are a force for good. For example, he suggested that had such a citizen been present during the cinema shootings fewer people might have died. He gave another example in which someone drove their car into a café in Texas and then started shooting people. Apparently there was a woman in the café who could have stopped him, had she not left her gun in her car. He himself claims to have chased off a robber from his apartment block using his own legally held gun.
Now I'm quite a naive idealist and my general view would be that I'd like to get rid of all guns. I do realise how unrealistic this is though and so it can be quite hard to combat Mark's view that the very fact that this would be impossible is the reason why it's so important for citizens to have the right to arm themselves.
Even if we then say ok we at least need better background checks, we all know that if someone wants a gun they'll find a way to get one. Sure all the kids have to do is take their parents guns, as I believe happened with a number of the school shootings.
So what's the answer???
Registration of all sales with serial # attached (there is a reason guns have them). Universal backround checks for all sales. Every weapon submits its "fingerprint" which is the bullet fired from it to FBI for cataloging. When that weapon is later used in crime and proven so , that person is held accountable. You no longer own that weapon for whatever reason and not inform authorities? Tough shit. You go to jail too.
parents of kids who steal the parents guns for crime are charged with same charges as kids.
Extensive training for each owner with regular retesting or recertification (thats what "well regulated militia " means in that amendment).
No more ccw "reciprocity" between states. you dont live in my state and want to carry here? Certify here.
Weapons ARE tools. Designed with the intent to cause bodily harm up to and including death. The seriousness of this fact as it applies to wider society far outweighs your haphazard, inapporiate storage and handling if these tools. If you cant show on a regular basis safe practice in all aspects of ownership then buy a bat or other means of protection.
Had hoped this might garner some kind of comment.
Think it got lost amongst the critically important album rankings convo.
Solution enough? Einstein?
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Same answer for the kids and nonreporting. It is then shown that securement is an issue. RESPONSIBLE owners secure AND know where their weapons are.
We can agree black market guns are an issue. And some come from thefts. I believe this helps address this
If you have knowledge your house was broken into and you fail to check your weapons? Or report? You are complicit in any crime that results UNLESS you have reported missing.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I found myself debating this issue with the American actor Mark Pellegrino the other day, which was quite bizarre but when talking about something like this the concept of celebrity is somewhat redundant, he was just another person with strongly held opinions with which I happened to disagree. Anyway, his defence of the right to bear arms is his staunch belief that guns in the right hands (those of responsible law-abiding citizens) are a force for good. For example, he suggested that had such a citizen been present during the cinema shootings fewer people might have died. He gave another example in which someone drove their car into a café in Texas and then started shooting people. Apparently there was a woman in the café who could have stopped him, had she not left her gun in her car. He himself claims to have chased off a robber from his apartment block using his own legally held gun.
Now I'm quite a naive idealist and my general view would be that I'd like to get rid of all guns. I do realise how unrealistic this is though and so it can be quite hard to combat Mark's view that the very fact that this would be impossible is the reason why it's so important for citizens to have the right to arm themselves.
Even if we then say ok we at least need better background checks, we all know that if someone wants a gun they'll find a way to get one. Sure all the kids have to do is take their parents guns, as I believe happened with a number of the school shootings.
So what's the answer???
Registration of all sales with serial # attached (there is a reason guns have them). Universal backround checks for all sales. Every weapon submits its "fingerprint" which is the bullet fired from it to FBI for cataloging. When that weapon is later used in crime and proven so , that person is held accountable. You no longer own that weapon for whatever reason and not inform authorities? Tough shit. You go to jail too.
parents of kids who steal the parents guns for crime are charged with same charges as kids.
Extensive training for each owner with regular retesting or recertification (thats what "well regulated militia " means in that amendment).
No more ccw "reciprocity" between states. you dont live in my state and want to carry here? Certify here.
Weapons ARE tools. Designed with the intent to cause bodily harm up to and including death. The seriousness of this fact as it applies to wider society far outweighs your haphazard, inapporiate storage and handling if these tools. If you cant show on a regular basis safe practice in all aspects of ownership then buy a bat or other means of protection.
Had hoped this might garner some kind of comment.
Think it got lost amongst the critically important album rankings convo.
Solution enough? Einstein?
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Same answer for the kids and nonreporting. It is then shown that securement is an issue. RESPONSIBLE owners secure AND know where their weapons are.
We can agree black market guns are an issue. And some come from thefts. I believe this helps address this
If you have knowledge your house was broken into and you fail to check your weapons? Or report? You are complicit in any crime that results UNLESS you have reported missing.
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Again I agree with you! We're on a roll. Parents being charged for their kids' crimes. Unless the parents had a direct hand in their actions or knew about their plans ahead of time and failed to try and stop them, I completely disagree with this tactic generally. It really bothers me that it seems to be an idea that's taken seriously by a lot of people, including some lawmakers.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,938
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Again I agree with you! We're on a roll. Parents being charged for their kids' crimes. Unless the parents had a direct hand in their actions or knew about their plans ahead of time and failed to try and stop them, I completely disagree with this tactic generally. It really bothers me that it seems to be an idea that's taken seriously by a lot of people, including some lawmakers.
Unsecured weapons in a household with minors. You dont think a parent bears some kind of criminal responibility if it is then taken by a minor child and a crime is commited?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
If all guns were registered, then yes, gun owners should be held accountable for guns stolen and used in a crime. But that only works if all guns are registered. Why do you think most gun owners are opposed to this?
Parents of kids who "steal" their parents guns should be charged with the same crime? That s a solution? Are you kidding me? My kid borrows my car, gets drunk and kills a person and I go to jail? No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test. Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much. How do you prove regular practice safe practice? You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break. Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
Again I agree with you! We're on a roll. Parents being charged for their kids' crimes. Unless the parents had a direct hand in their actions or knew about their plans ahead of time and failed to try and stop them, I completely disagree with this tactic generally. It really bothers me that it seems to be an idea that's taken seriously by a lot of people, including some lawmakers.
Unsecured weapons in a household with minors. You dont think a parent bears some kind of criminal responibility if it is then taken by a minor child and a crime is commited?
There was one case in that Requiem for the Dead documentary where a kid accidentally shot his friend with a gun his father kept under his bed. The father kept at least 6 guns UNDER HIS BED. That father has to accept some responsibility surely?
I dunno about that. It opens a door to a whole other side of the law regarding shit like assault or even murder with household objects. I mean the minor would get a PINS for sure so thats already a punishment on the parents - in cases where the gun is not secured they should get charged with a fine or something for having the weapon not secured or charged with a child endangerment.
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
I dunno about that. It opens a door to a whole other side of the law regarding shit like assault or even murder with household objects. I mean the minor would get a PINS for sure so thats already a punishment on the parents - in cases where the gun is not secured they should get charged with a fine or something for having the weapon not secured or charged with a child endangerment.
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
Well no I wouldn't suggest that. I'd be happy if they just took away his right to own guns. It was a tragic case, no intent at all but something has to be done to prevent further tragedies like that happening. If people are going to insist on the right to bear arms then the least they can do is be responsible about it and not endanger innocent lives
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in 2013 murders in this country were the lowest since 1968.
CNN reports that a study shows that gun-related homicides are down in the U.S. Then it goes on in its last two sentences to share that "the United States still has a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries" and that "The United States ... has a higher rate of gun ownership than any other developed country."
The student-edited paper that the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, which is known among its circle as a forum for conservative and libertarian legal scholarship, published in 2007 also doesn't state that more guns equals less crime, because in spite of their politics (Kates is a libertarian, and Mauser is a Canadian gun-rights advocate), they cannot prove that as a fact. What they can claim (again, not prove) is that according to their observations (which given their politics and the publication likely have some confirmational bias), more guns do not necessarily equal more crime and less guns do not necessarily equal less crime. I read the entire PDF. It's interesting, but the findings have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Anyway, who's with me and Andy Parker (father of Alison Parker) on Sept. 10 to do "whatever it takes ... to shame legislators into doing something about closing loopholes in background checks and making sure crazy people don’t get guns."
Pledge to act here: http://act.everytown.org/signup/day-of-action/?source=no_ETActPage&utm_source=_n_&utm_medium=_o&utm_campaign=WhateverItTakesHub.
Pledge to call Congress here: http://act.everytown.org/signup/day-of-action-calls/?source=no_ETActPage&utm_source=et_n_&utm_medium=_o&utm_campaign=WhateverItTakesHubPage.
Gruffy, I've read your posts. I know that you also think that there's a problem. I know that even you think we need to get Congress to act on this aspect (namely, gun safety and keeping psychos away from firearms). Hell, you had some good ideas about ways we can fix this. As a responsible gun owner, please call Congress and share them.
Let's remind Congress that they work for us and not the special interest groups and corporate lobbyists, especially on this issue. It's too important to ignore; it's literally a matter of life and death.
I'm all for this bud! it's a tough uphill battle though. i'm from liberal new jersey where we have a ton of gun control laws that appear to be working. Like I've said, I just don't want to ban any guns or tax the hell out of ammo.
Maybe i'll run for congress...Do I have your vote?
If so, I'll equate it to the pro-choice people who worry that abortion will be banned on a national level. That will also never happen in our lifetime in this country. Planned Parenthood et al. are too big.
I can't vote for you, bud. Way out of my district -- plus you talk shit about Riot Act.
I do talk shit about riot act....terrible record. pearl jam should reimburse me every time they play something shitty off that album.
One they described as uzi alley.
The full auto version is no longer legal for sale since 86 when it was outlawed , gasp, by Reagan!!!! So if as you say not many were used in crime why the need to outlaw them?
2004 the year the assault weapon ban was allowed to expire. Shame. We were on the right track.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
And did you also know that the NRA backed this bill?
second, I have zero problem with fully automatic weapons being banned. There's no reason for a us citizen to have one.
Crime itself is seeing a decline for many reasons.
The articles you posted infer that the overall % of population THAT OWN GUNS has grown dramatically as the overall number of guns has. Its not factually true.
edit in caps
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
And you are saying there isn't a direct causal correlation with increased sales to lower crime. But a lot of anti-gunners here say that the more guns equal more crime. So if we've added literally over 100 million guns and crime hasn't gone up then doesn't that prove that theory wrong?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
* In 1976, the Washington, D.C. City Council passed a law generally prohibiting residents from possessing handguns and requiring that all firearms in private homes be (1) kept unloaded and (2) rendered temporally inoperable via disassembly or installation of a trigger lock. The law became operative on Sept. 24, 1976.[33] [34]
* On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, struck down this law as unconstitutional.[35]
* During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.[37]
* A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends.[94]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[130]
Simple. The article suggests or infers that its was the increase of guns sold that led to thid when in fact the % of gun owners is on the decline. You have less people buying the majority ofvthe guns.
So tell me, how does the same or roughly the same number of people biying guns reflect the decrease in crime? Vigilantes are they?
It fails to look at a broader scope of reasons. It may have played some kind of role but not in the way they portray it.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Now I ve posted numerous articles, polls, statistical evidence, and Even came up with proposals to combat gun violence. What about you Einstein? Do you merely try to discredit/argue/pick apart everything I say/post or do you have an actual plan that is supported with either voter approval or statistical evidence? Or are you just firing from an emotional hip?
How can you dismiss the statistic that in 2000 nearly one million Americans used firearms to defend themselves and others from crime?
Solution enough? Einstein?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
No more ccw between states? Perhaps let s go with individual state liscense too; meaning, I have a nj liscense and I need to drive in Pennsylvania I need to pass their test.
Initial training cool but regular retesting? That s a little much.
How do you prove regular practice safe practice?
You don't report a gun stolen and you go to jail too? Wtf? How did that person do anything wrong? A lot of people don't report crimes and don't go to jail. Give me a break.
Otherwise I m good with registration, initial education and ballistic s
fingerprinting. I get the same crime charged to me as my kids? Yeah no way.
My uncle and cousin, who converted the ak47, said that it wasn't a difficult process at all. My only question was why do it? Their response was "because we could."
You openly admit to someone committing a felony, a FELONY. Who's smart?!?
We can agree black market guns are an issue. And some come from thefts. I believe this helps address this
If you have knowledge your house was broken into and you fail to check your weapons? Or report? You are complicit in any crime that results UNLESS you have reported missing.
Recent case related to your analogy. Father allowed daughter 15 yrs old to use his SUV on vacation. She picked up others. She now has to deal with the fact her reckless driving killed three passengers .it wasnt the first time dad allowed her to drive.
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crime/2014/12/17/eastchester-father-daughter-charged-pennsylvania-triple-fatal/20547103/
Dad was charged too pled guilty. Searching for sentence handed down.
Edit. Found it. 6 1/5 to 16 for dad. 3 young lives gone.
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crime/2015/08/20/fatal-crash-ware-sentenced/31936621/
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Imagine that, individuals accepting responsibility for breaking the law.
and for the record the daughter was unlicensed. big difference. that's why the dad went to jail.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
But I don't think it's a good idea to have the father do hard time cuz his kid stole his gun and shot someone by accident. He should be held responsible for having the gun unsecured and then an extra punishment for having the gun unsecured in a home with children. But he shouldn't be charged with the murder of the kid.
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