@godfather, you hit the nail on the head when you said "I've always believed and still do", those are YOUR beliefs. the problem comes in when you try to force others to believe what you do. by your own admission you said you would vote against GM, which means you're trying to force your beliefs on others. that's bull shit man. what's ironic is that if a muslim person started saying how the Quran says we should do whatever and this is what Allah wants us to do blah blah blah so we need to all do it......you would be the loudest critic of that(based on my interpretations of your previous posts about muslims and islam and what not). so it really begs the question, why is it ok for you to try and shove your beliefs down my throat, but it's not ok for anyone else? other than the obvious because i'm a Christian and they're muslim.
no I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anybody but I have stated my opinion and if I were to vote no on G/M I would be standing up for what I believe as you or anybody else would, if you were to vote yes for G/M do you think you would be forcing me to change what I believe ? that's just not possible right ? I oppose G/M but I'm not trying tell anybody that they can't because the law now states that you can wed whom ever you wish but I'd be willing to bet if there was a public vote the results may have been different....but there was not so I'll just keep following my beliefs and move forward. I have said time and time again "BELIEVE AS YOU WISH" and just as your beliefs are not up for vote niether are mine.
Godfather.
PS- if I were to meet you, a gay person or BB or anybody else I would treat you all with the same respect as I would anybody else until you treated me differently.
ummmm yeah I see, I've always believed and still do that a marrieage was union preformed before God, to me if you are not married in the eyes of God the true meaning of marrieage has not been completed.
Godfather.
This is about legal status, not spiritual status. If you get divorced, who issues the divorce? Govt or church?
ummmm yeah I see, I've always believed and still do that a marrieage was union preformed before God, to me if you are not married in the eyes of God the true meaning of marrieage has not been completed.
Godfather.
This is about legal status, not spiritual status. If you get divorced, who issues the divorce? Govt or church?
that's one of my sonfused thoughts on the seperation of church and state, it's like the state/fed's want to control some aspects of the church but don't want any input from the church, I admit I don't completely understand how that works it just seems one sided to me.
ummmm yeah I see, I've always believed and still do that a marrieage was union preformed before God, to me if you are not married in the eyes of God the true meaning of marrieage has not been completed.
Godfather.
This is about legal status, not spiritual status. If you get divorced, who issues the divorce? Govt or church?
that's one of my sonfused thoughts on the seperation of church and state, it's like the state/fed's want to control some aspects of the church but don't want any input from the church, I admit I don't completely understand how that works it just seems one sided to me.
Godfather.
The deal is that "marriage" (it has long been suggested that word should be left to churches and something like "legal union" adopted) is a legal status with ramifications in the realms of taxation, inheritance, health insurance, etc. that can be initiated and terminated by certain conditions governed by law. "Marriage" in the religious aspect is a spiritual union that many religions/churches view as a lifelong condition which can't, and won't, 42nd terminated.
The overlap exists purely from tradition, marriage was traditionally pperformed by ministers of religion, but for a long time judges and certain government officials have been authorized to perform this legally binding ceremony.
@godfather, I don't think you fully comprehend the ramifications of what happened when you said you would vote. you're still saying your attitude is "believe as you wish" but when you said you would vote you put a little asterisk at the bottom saying, "hey guys, I know I said believe what you want to believe, but I have these moral values that I live by that stem from my religion and given the opportunity I am going to try and make all of you live by my same values.....just a heads up."
that's the subtle message you send when you say you would vote to have people abide by your own personal religious preferences.
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
I am all for removing the word "marriage" from legal documents, it might help alleviate some of the confusion and animosity toward same-sex unions. You can be married by a priest in front of God, but without a license from the government, you are not legally joined. The opposite is true as well, you can be legally "married" without a speck of religious involvement, but that marriage wouldn't be recognized as a binding covenant by Yahweh.
ehhh I think congratulate is a bit of a stretch. there wasn't a single exclamation point, woohoo or way to go godfather!!. I think people can believe whatever the hell they want to and should be allowed to express their beliefs, even if they are the complete opposite of mine.
Haha, that's true, you didn't give three cheers or anything.
I also believe in freedom of speech.... so I am exercising mine in reaction to GF, who of course can believe and express whatever he wants. I never suggested otherwise. That doesn't mean I can't criticize it.
Criticize all you want...Go for it!!
But Im thinking you telling him...To go fuck himself?????
Yeah... That one is going to go over REAL WELL with the mods.....
plus it would make him GAY
And in due time.... The Supreme Court will soon allow Godfather to marry himself!
Oh boy not that tired old argument... Reality is calling, will you accept the charges?
Hey, no worries, I accept the fact that GM is a reality.
I was just having a little fun with the whole "Go Fuck Yourself" statement.
Have no worries, I don't see the Supreme Court allowing Godfather to marry himself..Or Godfather to marry a chimpanzee.
speedy your so creative is that trate from your mother or your father ?.....just because your here to make such funny jokes I'll assume you had both at one time or another...I'll let you in on a little secrete...it takes a man and a woman to reproduce, why is that ?
Godfather.
I believe Speedy is on your side here GF. That's also a hilariously weak argument. You are suggesting that marriage is for procreation only... I am sure you haven't thought about where that leads, or you wouldn't have posted such a slackjawed, birdbrained argument. Then again, you did post that old classic, "It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" lol
sorry, I've been reading all this and lost track speedy.slackjawed, bird brained argument ? I ain't the one who believes in same sex marrieage I'm just posting my opinion as is everybody else and I really don't care what everybody else believes, but so far I've been told to go fuck myself...(now that's safe sex) and attacked with comments on my personal belifes so that makes me wonder if that's what people resort to to justify thier argument for G/M maybe I have struck a nerve in people that might have them doubting themselfs, why would somebe angry if they thought what they stated they was right ? unless they really don't know for sure what they are saying.
Godfather.
So if a referendum came out that was seeking to ban all religious worship it wouldn't strike a nerve with you? You wouldn't be ppissed? And if you were pissed would it be because you weren't sure if you were right? That logic makes no sense. People get angry when they and their brethren are discriminated against, and that is what you are seeking to do.
well....so far obama has been elected -no name calling on my part( that I can remember)-my faith has been questioned-no name calling on my part I don't believe I've told anybody they were bat shit crazy, told them to fuck them selves or things like that, if all those things are the part of anger that comes along with debate here on the train nobody has sent me the memo....but I will admit all these things do make for good heated discussion,the only question is can others handle it well enough to carry on a good debate.
side note: while obama has been perz race relations have hit distraserous lows, other countries are laughing at him and us even saying he is not a good leader........but he is the president for what it's worth.
Godfather.
I'll speak to your side note.
Despite some of his failings and comparatively speaking, other countries do not think Obama is a poor leader (not mine anyways). Other countries do think your last leader was woeful and that it was he and his gaggle of puppet masters that- while pursuing matters of self interest- started this downward spiral which your country has been trying to get out of (economic hardships, racial tensions, middle eastern crisis, etc.).
I guess other countries have better long term memories.
* By the way... you couldn't be any more off base with your views on this subject.
@godfather, I don't think you fully comprehend the ramifications of what happened when you said you would vote. you're still saying your attitude is "believe as you wish" but when you said you would vote you put a little asterisk at the bottom saying, "hey guys, I know I said believe what you want to believe, but I have these moral values that I live by that stem from my religion and given the opportunity I am going to try and make all of you live by my same values.....just a heads up."
that's the subtle message you send when you say you would vote to have people abide by your own personal religious preferences.
o.k but in a vote situation we all have the same opertunity right ? I am not asking anybody to change thier morals or opinions but if the state/fed's are going to force a law on us it's up to us to accept that law at a personal leval meaning we may abide by that law but may not agree with it (and there are a lot of those) it's not my place to force anything on anybody, all I have are my personal views and on this site we talk about those views and opinions most of the time, just because you accept G/M and I do not does not mean either one of is a bad person it just means we have different opinions on the subject and we can talk about our opinions and still respect each other.
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
@godfather, I don't think you fully comprehend the ramifications of what happened when you said you would vote. you're still saying your attitude is "believe as you wish" but when you said you would vote you put a little asterisk at the bottom saying, "hey guys, I know I said believe what you want to believe, but I have these moral values that I live by that stem from my religion and given the opportunity I am going to try and make all of you live by my same values.....just a heads up."
that's the subtle message you send when you say you would vote to have people abide by your own personal religious preferences.
o.k but in a vote situation we all have the same opertunity right ? I am not asking anybody to change thier morals or opinions but if the state/fed's are going to force a law on us it's up to us to accept that law at a personal leval meaning we may abide by that law but may not agree with it (and there are a lot of those) it's not my place to force anything on anybody, all I have are my personal views and on this site we talk about those views and opinions most of the time, just because you accept G/M and I do not does not mean either one of is a bad person it just means we have different opinions on the subject and we can talk about our opinions and still respect each other.
Godfather.
You are missing the point, the state/Fed isn't forcing anything on you. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a dude. It's that simple. This is America, where we are supposed to be free to do as we please if it doesn't harm anyone else. By voting against It, YOU are the one forcing something on someone else.
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
We had a wedding mostly for the party. Always fun to have an excuse to get everyone together for a nice celebration. We also did it on the cheap so it wasn't a burden on anyone financially. And religion played no part in it.
But yeah, I mostly agree that it's just a piece of paper and not for everyone.
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
We had a wedding mostly for the party. Always fun to have an excuse to get everyone together for a nice celebration. We also did it on the cheap so it wasn't a burden on anyone financially. And religion played no part in it.
But yeah, I mostly agree that it's just a piece of paper and not for everyone.
@godfather, I don't think you fully comprehend the ramifications of what happened when you said you would vote. you're still saying your attitude is "believe as you wish" but when you said you would vote you put a little asterisk at the bottom saying, "hey guys, I know I said believe what you want to believe, but I have these moral values that I live by that stem from my religion and given the opportunity I am going to try and make all of you live by my same values.....just a heads up."
that's the subtle message you send when you say you would vote to have people abide by your own personal religious preferences.
o.k but in a vote situation we all have the same opertunity right ? I am not asking anybody to change thier morals or opinions but if the state/fed's are going to force a law on us it's up to us to accept that law at a personal leval meaning we may abide by that law but may not agree with it (and there are a lot of those) it's not my place to force anything on anybody, all I have are my personal views and on this site we talk about those views and opinions most of the time, just because you accept G/M and I do not does not mean either one of is a bad person it just means we have different opinions on the subject and we can talk about our opinions and still respect each other.
Godfather.
You are missing the point, the state/Fed isn't forcing anything on you. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a dude. It's that simple. This is America, where we are supposed to be free to do as we please if it doesn't harm anyone else. By voting against It, YOU are the one forcing something on someone else.
I understand what your saying and believe it or not agree with free to do as we please(to a point) this is just a topic I can't even believe we are debating, man the world has changed.......it's just hard for me to say uncle on this one LOL !!
Godfather.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
We had a wedding mostly for the party. Always fun to have an excuse to get everyone together for a nice celebration. We also did it on the cheap so it wasn't a burden on anyone financially. And religion played no part in it.
But yeah, I mostly agree that it's just a piece of paper and not for everyone.
Each to their own, dignin!
If it worked for you... no judgements here.
I do hear you, Thirty.
We married after 14 years together, just the two of us at the local courthouse, by a JOP. She asked us why we decided to do it after so much time (none of her business, really!), and it was difficult to articulate. We just wanted it, knew / felt it was time.
No party or hoopla and it didn't even matter - we had one of the best days ever.
Everyone - if they want it and no matter how - should have access to it.
It's pretty simple to me. Marriage is a contract. Religion really plays no part in it other than tradition. My wife insisted on getting married in a church. Which meant I had to sit in front of the preacher and basically lie to him so he would perform the ceremony. It was a joke.
It's pretty simple to me. Marriage is a contract. Religion really plays no part in it other than tradition. My wife insisted on getting married in a church. Which meant I had to sit in front of the preacher and basically lie to him so he would perform the ceremony. It was a joke.
Lol. Good for you, doing that for your wife. I always figured I might have to flat out refuse if I married someone who wanted to have a religious wedding (though I can't really imagine that I'd marry someone who would want that, frankly). But I admire that you just kept your mouth shut and did it for her. I will also have to refuse to swear on a bible, if I ever happen to be asked to do that. I have heard that they have a contingency plan for that in court though.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
it's gonna be the same thing as racism. yeah racism is frowned upon and is viewed as politically incorrect, and in some instances illegal, but are there still racists? of course there are. I predict there are going to be people "standing up" for their religious beliefs, and that will end up costing most of those people their jobs or businesses. that cake maker that went out of business after being boycotted received a shit ton of money from religious supporters, but I think that there will be so many religious zealots boohooing that there won't be enough money to go around like that. in the end whether you don't like gays or blacks or women or muslims or whoever, most people will just keep it to themselves, if out of nothing more than self preservation.
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
My knee jerk reaction is serve everyone or no one but I don't know anymore. The Wedding Photographer. Against their beliefs. They are deep into the gay wedding.
Okay. So legal and church weddings are two totally separate things.
So the next toughie in my opinion is can some one discriminate and withhold services if against their beliefs.
Wedding cake makers caterers etc?
I've expressed position that if you serve the public you can't discriminate.
But then think of wedding photographers. Again......... Thoughts.
I certainly don't think that business should be able to refuse immediate customer service (i.e. not sell coffee to a gay person who comes into the coffee shop). But I figure that those who provide the kinds of services you're talking about, like really working on a contract, can refuse to provide that service for any reason, be it them being too busy to take more clients, them thinking the event or whatever just isn't something that suits their style, or because they think the client's personality is too unpleasant to deal with, or because they aren't interested in being a part of a gay wedding. Of course, if these people knew what was best for them, they'd keep their fucking traps shut about it. Just like you probably wouldn't tell a really irritating person that that is why you aren't working for them, you also shouldn't tell a gay person that that is why you aren't serving them (of course, not serving a gay person because they're gay is FUCKING EVIL, but hey, there is no law saying you can't be a horrible asshole). But to be honest, I go back and forth a bit with this. Sometimes I think what I just said. Other times I think fuck that, no one should be able to refuse anything to customers just because of race, gender, disability, or sexual orientation. Today I guess I am just feeling generous (to bigots).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Gays, blacks, whites, hispanics, french, japanese, trannys, jews, christians, hindus, and Canadians all have one thing in common: their money is all green and spends the same. It would just be stupid and a poor business decision for people to turn them down based on anything.
Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Gays, blacks, whites, hispanics, french, japanese, trannys, jews, christians, hindus, and Canadians all have one thing in common: their money is all green and spends the same. It would just be stupid and a poor business decision for people to turn them down based on anything.
You forgot atheists
Agreed on your point, but should they choose to refuse, their business will flourish or flounder.
Gays, blacks, whites, hispanics, french, japanese, trannys, jews, christians, hindus, and Canadians all have one thing in common: their money is all green and spends the same. It would just be stupid and a poor business decision for people to turn them down based on anything.
You forgot atheists
Agreed on your point, but should they choose to refuse, their business will flourish or flounder.
IF they were to refuse services, they would have to say it was because of something other than sexual orientation or color or gender. Otherwise, it's discrimination and illegal. And hopefully their business would flounder.
Yeah I don't see it as a big issue. Weddings are the only situation where a person would have a legitimate reason to not want to participate. Weddings are also strictly scheduled, so an invented scheduling conflict would exempt you from providing services. If you want to make a stand out of It, the ramifications are your own fault.
Yeah I don't see it as a big issue. Weddings are the only situation where a person would have a legitimate reason to not want to participate. Weddings are also strictly scheduled, so an invented scheduling conflict would exempt you from providing services. If you want to make a stand out of It, the ramifications are your own fault.
Agreed. It's stupid to advertise your bigotry when you have a business.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It's pretty simple to me. Marriage is a contract. Religion really plays no part in it other than tradition. My wife insisted on getting married in a church. Which meant I had to sit in front of the preacher and basically lie to him so he would perform the ceremony. It was a joke.
Lol. Good for you, doing that for your wife. I always figured I might have to flat out refuse if I married someone who wanted to have a religious wedding (though I can't really imagine that I'd marry someone who would want that, frankly). But I admire that you just kept your mouth shut and did it for her. I will also have to refuse to swear on a bible, if I ever happen to be asked to do that. I have heard that they have a contingency plan for that in court though.
Yes, you can "affirm" rather than swear on a bible. I've done it and there was no problem; you are just asked if you would prefer to swear or affirm.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
I dated my girlfriend for 13 years before we got married. Sorta felt like we were married after a few years though. For her and I personally, is was really important to get married in our church and have god, and our family and friends as witnesses. It was the greatest experience of my life so far... PJ in Detroit 2014 would be the second best experience. But I would strongly disagree that marriage is a farce. The day we got married profoundly changed our relationship and it has felt different from the previous 13 years ever since. As far as the plastic ceremony and reception go, ours were very nice. Nothing crazy or anything though. Had good food and some awesome craft beers for everyone. The point of it was not to show everyone that we were committed to eachother though. After all, the wedding wasn't all about us. It was also very much about our parents, grandparents, family and friends. I always enjoy going to other peoples wedding because they are such joyous occasions.
Not saying your relationship with your partner isn't as meaningful as my relationship with my wife, just expressing my opposing view on what a marriage ceremony means.
You're right about divorce. In our marriage prep class the first thing the priest asked us was "do you know what the divorce rate of America is? It's 50%. Do you know the divorce rate is among catholics is? Well, its also 50%."
I don't think marriage has any relevancy anyways. This whole situation is about recognizing the rights of individuals.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
I dated my girlfriend for 13 years before we got married. Sorta felt like we were married after a few years though. For her and I personally, is was really important to get married in our church and have god, and our family and friends as witnesses. It was the greatest experience of my life so far... PJ in Detroit 2014 would be the second best experience. But I would strongly disagree that marriage is a farce. The day we got married profoundly changed our relationship and it has felt different from the previous 13 years ever since. As far as the plastic ceremony and reception go, ours were very nice. Nothing crazy or anything though. Had good food and some awesome craft beers for everyone. The point of it was not to show everyone that we were committed to eachother though. After all, the wedding wasn't all about us. It was also very much about our parents, grandparents, family and friends. I always enjoy going to other peoples wedding because they are such joyous occasions.
Not saying your relationship with your partner isn't as meaningful as my relationship with my wife, just expressing my opposing view on what a marriage ceremony means.
You're right about divorce. In our marriage prep class the first thing the priest asked us was "do you know what the divorce rate of America is? It's 50%. Do you know the divorce rate is among catholics is? Well, its also 50%."
awesome post ! I wish good things for you and your wife.
Comments
I have said time and time again "BELIEVE AS YOU WISH" and just as your beliefs are not up for vote niether are mine.
Godfather.
PS- if I were to meet you, a gay person or BB or anybody else I would treat you all with the same respect as I would anybody else until you treated me differently.
If you get divorced, who issues the divorce? Govt or church?
Godfather.
"Marriage" in the religious aspect is a spiritual union that many religions/churches view as a lifelong condition which can't, and won't, 42nd terminated.
The overlap exists purely from tradition, marriage was traditionally pperformed by ministers of religion, but for a long time judges and certain government officials have been authorized to perform this legally binding ceremony.
that's the subtle message you send when you say you would vote to have people abide by your own personal religious preferences.
You can be married by a priest in front of God, but without a license from the government, you are not legally joined.
The opposite is true as well, you can be legally "married" without a speck of religious involvement, but that marriage wouldn't be recognized as a binding covenant by Yahweh.
Despite some of his failings and comparatively speaking, other countries do not think Obama is a poor leader (not mine anyways). Other countries do think your last leader was woeful and that it was he and his gaggle of puppet masters that- while pursuing matters of self interest- started this downward spiral which your country has been trying to get out of (economic hardships, racial tensions, middle eastern crisis, etc.).
I guess other countries have better long term memories.
* By the way... you couldn't be any more off base with your views on this subject.
Godfather.
I am not married to my partner. I call my partner 'wife' only because it most easily expresses her relationship to me when I refer to her to other people. We have been faithfully together for 20 years and have two children- ages 17 and 14. We got a really cool cat too. Our household is as happy as can be- no ancient ritual could possibly help make it better.
Why aren't we married? We are not married because marriage, like many things, is a farce- it's a relic from the past when we were very simple and thought that such events were critical. Words uttered by some priest do not solidify or make a relationship- divorce rates prove that. We talked about doing it, but ultimately, we never felt the need to take money out of our line of credit and throw a big, plastic ceremony to show everyone we are committed to each other.
I remember many people urging us to do as they did and formally get married (implying our relationship wasn't valid maybe?). Many... in fact... most of these people have since divorced.
By voting against It, YOU are the one forcing something on someone else.
But yeah, I mostly agree that it's just a piece of paper and not for everyone.
If it worked for you... no judgements here.
Godfather.
We married after 14 years together, just the two of us at the local courthouse, by a JOP. She asked us why we decided to do it after so much time (none of her business, really!), and it was difficult to articulate. We just wanted it, knew / felt it was time.
No party or hoopla and it didn't even matter - we had one of the best days ever.
Everyone - if they want it and no matter how - should have access to it.
GF, I think that's the gist here.
I will also have to refuse to swear on a bible, if I ever happen to be asked to do that. I have heard that they have a contingency plan for that in court though.
So the next toughie in my opinion is can some one discriminate and withhold services if against their beliefs.
Wedding cake makers caterers etc?
I've expressed position that if you serve the public you can't discriminate.
But then think of wedding photographers. Again......... Thoughts.
Of course, if these people knew what was best for them, they'd keep their fucking traps shut about it. Just like you probably wouldn't tell a really irritating person that that is why you aren't working for them, you also shouldn't tell a gay person that that is why you aren't serving them (of course, not serving a gay person because they're gay is FUCKING EVIL, but hey, there is no law saying you can't be a horrible asshole). But to be honest, I go back and forth a bit with this. Sometimes I think what I just said. Other times I think fuck that, no one should be able to refuse anything to customers just because of race, gender, disability, or sexual orientation. Today I guess I am just feeling generous (to bigots).
Agreed on your point, but should they choose to refuse, their business will flourish or flounder.
If you want to make a stand out of It, the ramifications are your own fault.
Not saying your relationship with your partner isn't as meaningful as my relationship with my wife, just expressing my opposing view on what a marriage ceremony means.
You're right about divorce. In our marriage prep class the first thing the priest asked us was "do you know what the divorce rate of America is? It's 50%. Do you know the divorce rate is among catholics is? Well, its also 50%."
Godfather.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html?intcmp=latestnews
Godfather.