i get the fuck out of iraq, get the fuck out of saudi arabia, get the fuck out of afghanistan, get the fuck out of syria, because we are meddling there too you know, and bring everyone home. focus on ourselves and our own country and our own people. let those in the region handle this. if isis wins, isis wins. it will be their job to rule, which we all know they can't figure out what to do besides rape, burn and behead. they will have their own state. and then when they can't rule, someone else in the region will absorb their land and redraw the map of the middle east. i say let someone over there figure it out.
yes, bush and co broke it, but they can't own it. obama inherited it, and he can't own it either. if you can't own something you have to let it go.
going into iraq is the biggest blunder in american history. this will go down in the history books 100 years from now as one of the biggest blunders in world history. it won't say that in american history books, as they do not even speak of vietnam as a military defeat for america. american kids can't be taught that america made a mistake.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Aafke, very well put, and I agree with you on many of your points, especially regarding imposing our way of life on other cultures (I blame Star Trek's Prime Directive for instilling this value in me, lol). However, while we are in large part responsible for many of the groups now fighting us, the prime reason I feel we need to be involved now is that several groups and even governments (IS) have named us as targets in part because they would impose their values on us. They've bluntly said they mean us harm by any means they can (and since direct conflict with Fortress North America is impossible for them, they're going for so-called "soft targets"). More importantly (to me) they've threatened to attack civilians directly on our home soil. I'd prefer we be proactive and take away their means to perform such attacks. And to be clear, in my mind military targets are legitimate in many ways (for example, the U.S.S. Cole versus bombing embassies), while civilians are definitely off limits (I do understand a certain degree of "collateral damage," however our current "war technology" allows for such to be at least minimized). In my opinion, the fire bombing of Tokyo (and even the dropping of the atomic bombs on specifically non-military targets) should have been prosecuted as war crimes, but as we all know, the victors in a war pretty much commit no war crimes (or if they do, it's lower-level individuals that are tried).
I hesitate to bring up the succesful attacks in Canada, as they were both carried out by so-called lone-wolf terrorists, but the image of a soldier shot in the back and dying on the steps of our national war monument are pretty powerful still, not to mention the thought of a soldier run down by a car simply because he wore a uniform (uh-oh, did I just argue against myself there, lol? As well, for me, my outrage stems in part from the fact my sister's (and her sons') school in Ottawa being placed on lockdown during the Parliament attack. Thankfully that proved unnecessary.). Both those attacks were at least inspired by the groups we're now (still) fighting.
You've brought a couple situations to mind for me here. I'm a bit young to have fully appreciated it, but South Africa was in the end forced to change their way of life (apartheid) via more peaceful means (sanctions and international ostracizing), though it inevitably took longer than military action might have. I hope we can all agree that change was brought about for the best.
What IS seems to be engaged in on many levels is a cultural genocide, something that I feel the world cannot stand aside and watch (even though we have many times unfortunately). It's somewhat similar to how I'd thought the Taliban needed to be removed from power when they began destroying world heritage sites before 9/11 occurred (admittedly at that point it was likely too late to prevent the attacks). While I'll own up to being a non-denominational Christian (where one of the prime commandments is to worship only that God, I would never prevent others for following their own beliefs.
It's a strange discussion we've got going here, saying that we shouldn't do things that have been done by virtually every culture at some point in history (wiping out or just conquering other cultures), even our own (think native North Americans, though even they were immigrants, tens of thousands of years before us). Unfortunately it's one of those topics that there are no "right" answers, only lots of room for theories and opinions.
P.S. If I'm not making sense in this post or rambling, please forgive me, I've only just started my second cup of coffee, lol.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?
In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.
As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.
I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.
Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.
It's funny... All people I've spoken, who claimed they where pro-invasion of the Middle-East, gave the same arguments... Like the fat printed above... Not only in the latests conflicts in the Middle-East, but with all conflicts anywhere and everywhere... Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down. AQ was making a point on 9/11 to take our Western nose out of their business. For once they have managed to make their point in a similar way the West has done this for centuries, to take action at a country they saw as the great evil. But doesn't the West have done this same type of action or much. much worse for centuries? Don't we invade countries for many years in which we not only attack once, but invade with many troops and assassinate whole governments, because we doesn't accept their way of life on principle and will always work to take them down? I name, basically all invasions by the West since WW II...
Why is it so difficult for people to look at this from an other perspective as their own? How would you feel if the Middle East would send in troops to assassinate the US, European and Canadian Government, Install puppets of their own, and call it bringing peace to the region? Their troops would be left for many, many years, to silence all the resistance that is left, until the whole US, Europe and Canada, had lost its own will, and just obeyed to the will of the Middle-East to give away their natural resources, for practically nothing, and if US, Europe and Canada would not be willing to bent over and take it, heavy embargo's would be placed, and trade would be made impossible... This is exactly the way the western world treats the rest of the world.
We're not bringing freedom or democracy, our troops protect the investments of the 1%, who has all the power in our societies, the money, the political power, etc., etc... Who are we to mock others to fight for a religion, which in your eyes is bogus and oppressing, while in their eyes our freedom, can be as bogus and oppressive as well... No the West isn't slaved by a God, it's slaved by Money!!! In my opinion this makes no difference, we can all be titled as slaves, and, maybe , just maybe, although I am a atheist, a God is a nicer master than Money is...
Why would all the pro-invaders neglect the responsibility the West has in the birth of movements Like AQ and IS, both are in mayor part a result of the Western way of using the rest of the world as cheap resources, in my opinion. Why are we so arrogant to believe the rest of the world will role over as we say so? Why are we so arrogant to act supersized if they stand up for themselves?
No, we may not like the way they want to live their lives, but who are we to dictate how they may live their lives. What if the Middle-East would dictate us how to live our lives? How many of you would obey the new establishment, without hesitation? I'm sure in many cases the world would be to small. In some ways 9/11 was just a slap in the face... I will not play down all the unnecessary deaths, because every unnecessary death is one to many. Every unnecessary death, no matter if its a civilian, a soldier, a child, a women , a man or someone at age, no matter what believe system they believe in, no matter what is the color of their skin or the name of their God. Why is the West so scared to of other takes on life, that the only way they want to respond is with violence? Why is violence our only answer? Look at how many different opinions we have on many subjects, why would we assume, we are the only society who has these differences? Or is it just convenient to look at other societies as just one different opinion? Why do we think, we're so much better than the rest of the world, so we might judge them with our standards? And find them inferior, to be set back on the only right (western) track.
As long as our only response is to sent troops in and convince others just with force, I believe this world will not get any friendlier with the Western world... Because we only do understand force, and so are driving others to use the same methods, and a destructive downward spiral will continue. It will remain a story of the pot and the kettle... In the end it doesn't matter who did start, because their will be no one left to keep the score. Why can't we just share the world, with all our differences? Why do people feel the need to fight?
As Brain already said, I also have a lot of questions... Maybe I have to turn to a God to get them answered...
Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.
I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live. That has to go both ways right? Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.
I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.
It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.
Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences? I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.
Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?
In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.
As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.
I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.
Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.
It's funny... All people I've spoken, who claimed they where pro-invasion of the Middle-East, gave the same arguments... Like the fat printed above... Not only in the latests conflicts in the Middle-East, but with all conflicts anywhere and everywhere... Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down. AQ was making a point on 9/11 to take our Western nose out of their business. For once they have managed to make their point in a similar way the West has done this for centuries, to take action at a country they saw as the great evil. But doesn't the West have done this same type of action or much. much worse for centuries? Don't we invade countries for many years in which we not only attack once, but invade with many troops and assassinate whole governments, because we doesn't accept their way of life on principle and will always work to take them down? I name, basically all invasions by the West since WW II...
Why is it so difficult for people to look at this from an other perspective as their own? How would you feel if the Middle East would send in troops to assassinate the US, European and Canadian Government, Install puppets of their own, and call it bringing peace to the region? Their troops would be left for many, many years, to silence all the resistance that is left, until the whole US, Europe and Canada, had lost its own will, and just obeyed to the will of the Middle-East to give away their natural resources, for practically nothing, and if US, Europe and Canada would not be willing to bent over and take it, heavy embargo's would be placed, and trade would be made impossible... This is exactly the way the western world treats the rest of the world.
We're not bringing freedom or democracy, our troops protect the investments of the 1%, who has all the power in our societies, the money, the political power, etc., etc... Who are we to mock others to fight for a religion, which in your eyes is bogus and oppressing, while in their eyes our freedom, can be as bogus and oppressive as well... No the West isn't slaved by a God, it's slaved by Money!!! In my opinion this makes no difference, we can all be titled as slaves, and, maybe , just maybe, although I am a atheist, a God is a nicer master than Money is...
Why would all the pro-invaders neglect the responsibility the West has in the birth of movements Like AQ and IS, both are in mayor part a result of the Western way of using the rest of the world as cheap resources, in my opinion. Why are we so arrogant to believe the rest of the world will role over as we say so? Why are we so arrogant to act supersized if they stand up for themselves?
No, we may not like the way they want to live their lives, but who are we to dictate how they may live their lives. What if the Middle-East would dictate us how to live our lives? How many of you would obey the new establishment, without hesitation? I'm sure in many cases the world would be to small. In some ways 9/11 was just a slap in the face... I will not play down all the unnecessary deaths, because every unnecessary death is one to many. Every unnecessary death, no matter if its a civilian, a soldier, a child, a women , a man or someone at age, no matter what believe system they believe in, no matter what is the color of their skin or the name of their God. Why is the West so scared to of other takes on life, that the only way they want to respond is with violence? Why is violence our only answer? Look at how many different opinions we have on many subjects, why would we assume, we are the only society who has these differences? Or is it just convenient to look at other societies as just one different opinion? Why do we think, we're so much better than the rest of the world, so we might judge them with our standards? And find them inferior, to be set back on the only right (western) track.
As long as our only response is to sent troops in and convince others just with force, I believe this world will not get any friendlier with the Western world... Because we only do understand force, and so are driving others to use the same methods, and a destructive downward spiral will continue. It will remain a story of the pot and the kettle... In the end it doesn't matter who did start, because their will be no one left to keep the score. Why can't we just share the world, with all our differences? Why do people feel the need to fight?
As Brain already said, I also have a lot of questions... Maybe I have to turn to a God to get them answered...
Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.
I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live. That has to go both ways right? Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.
I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.
It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.
Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences? I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.
But that's just it Ryan, we're not allowing others to live the way they choose. We're always meddling, and now it's blatant and people still refuse to believe. It's like "we" can do no wrong.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.
I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live. That has to go both ways right? Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.
I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.
It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.
Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences? I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.
I disagree with you on a lot of statements in your response a printed fat in the quote...
Lets examine them one by one... First of all This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it. So strange You make them just sound like people from our own societies...
As long as Western societies keep delivering troops to the Middle East, your completely right, the issue isn't just middle eastern. As the second part of this statement, it is bullshit! Europe has treated their Muslim citizens as second hand citizens, for decades, They were scary, dumb, good enough to do our dirty work, as long as we had enough jobs to be picky, but not worthy to have the same rights as the white European citizens. They were allowed to stay as long as their labor was needed but were supposed to return, when the job market didn't need them any more. When they stayed, on paper they were treated equal but on the streets, they still remained second hand citizens, uneducated, and most of all unwanted. If you do threat people long enough this way, they get the feeling it doesn't matter how hard they try, they will never be accepted. Therefor it is quite understandable that second and third generation Muslim citizens, are drawn to the statements of the IS. For Europe it is easy to blame the radical Imams, because if they take the blame we don't have to look at our own responsibility for these radical turn of these youth.
Besides, the radicalization of the Muslim youth, is one of the overestimated terrors Europe is facing at the moment., The financial crisis, the possible upcoming bankruptcy of Greece, and the hundreds of death boat refugees on the Mediterranean Sea, and the increasing numbers of refugees out of the Middle East and Africa and the TTIP, (Free trade law with the US) are the real problems Europe is facing at the moment. Politicians need a scapegoat, and who better than the already feared Mulsim to blame all the shit on. Sounds like the same way the Jews have been isolated and treated for about fifty years in Europe before WW II broke out...
About you agreeing with me... No you don't, lets be honest about it... You disagree with me, and that's fine with me,. You think it's better to bomb the shit out of the Middle East in case the IS mindset will spread. I do Strongly disagree with your view on this case. I Believe where two fight, there are two to blame, and the one who invade an other country, can talk all they want, but must also have the courage to look at its own actions... If you believe in the freedom of speech, you must apply this freedom to all, also to the ones you disagree with fundamentally like IS.
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
We like rallying against the other team. Feels good, therapeutic.
Git them Evildoers taking away my freedom.
Watching old episodes of Family Guy that makes fun of our hidden agenda of securing oil. Actually it's sad.
Haha! Yes we do, Callen!
We in the west do like to spread our influence, that's for sure. But if we stop and think about it, that could be a good thing. There is much about western culture that is attractive. If we went to Iraq with guitars instead of bombs we might encourage more groups like Acrassicauda (the underground heavy metal band from Baghdad) and fewer groups like ISIS. And while were at it, maybe we could trade some guitars for a few Ouds. That middle east instrument worked very very well on some of Sandy Bull recordings*.
Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
Nothing will happen overnight but I do believe if we got out of there that activity would diminish greatly, rr. The rise of ISIS and terrorist activity out of the middle east was a direct development of our involvement in the middle east starting with our dependency on oil. The longer we meddle, the worse it will get. Why is that so hard to understand?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
Nothing will happen overnight but I do believe if we got out of there that activity would diminish greatly, rr. The rise of ISIS and terrorist activity out of the middle east was a direct development of our involvement in the middle east starting with our dependency on oil. The longer we meddle, the worse it will get. Why is that so hard to understand?
I have the same view on this subject as you have, Brain!
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
I don't know if we can still get back to the 'good' old days, but I'm convinced that if we keep on pushing we are damaging to the region more than if we stop pushing.
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,945
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
And Cal,not to divert but speaking of family guy,I watched a million ways to die in the west the other night,Mcfarlands last movie.Very funny stuff.
I didn't know it was a MacFarlane movie when I rented it, holy shit I was pleasantly surprised! Very funny movie! And Charlise...what a purely gorgeous woman!
And Cal,not to divert but speaking of family guy,I watched a million ways to die in the west the other night,Mcfarlands last movie.Very funny stuff.
I didn't know it was a MacFarlane movie when I rented it, holy shit I was pleasantly surprised! Very funny movie! And Charlise...what a purely gorgeous woman!
A lot of add lib between her and Seth.Sarah Silverman was funny as shit also.
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every. Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.
It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lol
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...
Please turn up your hearing aid and put your teeth in when talking to me old timer.:)))
As of this point in my life I am happy to report that all my parts are real other than two patches of plastic used in two inguinal hernia repairs. And that, now that I think of it, probably means that I am part middle eastern. Whoa! But don't worry, I am NOT a terrorist!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every. Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.
Sorry buddy but the unrest and turmoil is most def placed at our feet. You can't be serious Ryan with that statement? It's now in plain site. Everyone is admitting it. With all the ways you can get info now days, I can't understand how anyone can't see it.
Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every. Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.
Sorry buddy but the unrest and turmoil is most def placed at our feet. You can't be serious Ryan with that statement? It's now in plain site. Everyone is admitting it. With all the ways you can get info now days, I can't understand how anyone can't see it.
That's certainly my take on things there, bb. And besides, this focus of this thread is Iraq and the conflict there started in 2003 when the US invaded Iraq. We started it, we need to get out.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lol
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...
Please turn up your hearing aid and put your teeth in when talking to me old timer.:)))
As of this point in my life I am happy to report that all my parts are real other than two patches of plastic used in two inguinal hernia repairs. And that, now that I think of it, probably means that I am part middle eastern. Whoa! But don't worry, I am NOT a terrorist!
Ehh,I got a lil hernia cooking just above navel.Very small,only shows or can feel it when doing decline slant board ab excercises or the like.Kinda a pain,thought about getting it put back together but was told if it dosent get bigger or noticeable then I should leave it.Getting old sucks.I can't read anymore without readers,damnit!
Comments
yes, bush and co broke it, but they can't own it. obama inherited it, and he can't own it either. if you can't own something you have to let it go.
going into iraq is the biggest blunder in american history. this will go down in the history books 100 years from now as one of the biggest blunders in world history. it won't say that in american history books, as they do not even speak of vietnam as a military defeat for america. american kids can't be taught that america made a mistake.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I hesitate to bring up the succesful attacks in Canada, as they were both carried out by so-called lone-wolf terrorists, but the image of a soldier shot in the back and dying on the steps of our national war monument are pretty powerful still, not to mention the thought of a soldier run down by a car simply because he wore a uniform (uh-oh, did I just argue against myself there, lol? As well, for me, my outrage stems in part from the fact my sister's (and her sons') school in Ottawa being placed on lockdown during the Parliament attack. Thankfully that proved unnecessary.). Both those attacks were at least inspired by the groups we're now (still) fighting.
You've brought a couple situations to mind for me here. I'm a bit young to have fully appreciated it, but South Africa was in the end forced to change their way of life (apartheid) via more peaceful means (sanctions and international ostracizing), though it inevitably took longer than military action might have. I hope we can all agree that change was brought about for the best.
What IS seems to be engaged in on many levels is a cultural genocide, something that I feel the world cannot stand aside and watch (even though we have many times unfortunately). It's somewhat similar to how I'd thought the Taliban needed to be removed from power when they began destroying world heritage sites before 9/11 occurred (admittedly at that point it was likely too late to prevent the attacks). While I'll own up to being a non-denominational Christian (where one of the prime commandments is to worship only that God, I would never prevent others for following their own beliefs.
It's a strange discussion we've got going here, saying that we shouldn't do things that have been done by virtually every culture at some point in history (wiping out or just conquering other cultures), even our own (think native North Americans, though even they were immigrants, tens of thousands of years before us). Unfortunately it's one of those topics that there are no "right" answers, only lots of room for theories and opinions.
P.S. If I'm not making sense in this post or rambling, please forgive me, I've only just started my second cup of coffee, lol.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live.
That has to go both ways right?
Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.
I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.
It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.
Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences?
I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Lets examine them one by one... First of all This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it. So strange You make them just sound like people from our own societies...
As long as Western societies keep delivering troops to the Middle East, your completely right, the issue isn't just middle eastern. As the second part of this statement, it is bullshit! Europe has treated their Muslim citizens as second hand citizens, for decades, They were scary, dumb, good enough to do our dirty work, as long as we had enough jobs to be picky, but not worthy to have the same rights as the white European citizens. They were allowed to stay as long as their labor was needed but were supposed to return, when the job market didn't need them any more. When they stayed, on paper they were treated equal but on the streets, they still remained second hand citizens, uneducated, and most of all unwanted. If you do threat people long enough this way, they get the feeling it doesn't matter how hard they try, they will never be accepted. Therefor it is quite understandable that second and third generation Muslim citizens, are drawn to the statements of the IS. For Europe it is easy to blame the radical Imams, because if they take the blame we don't have to look at our own responsibility for these radical turn of these youth.
Besides, the radicalization of the Muslim youth, is one of the overestimated terrors Europe is facing at the moment., The financial crisis, the possible upcoming bankruptcy of Greece, and the hundreds of death boat refugees on the Mediterranean Sea, and the increasing numbers of refugees out of the Middle East and Africa and the TTIP, (Free trade law with the US) are the real problems Europe is facing at the moment. Politicians need a scapegoat, and who better than the already feared Mulsim to blame all the shit on. Sounds like the same way the Jews have been isolated and treated for about fifty years in Europe before WW II broke out...
About you agreeing with me... No you don't, lets be honest about it... You disagree with me, and that's fine with me,. You think it's better to bomb the shit out of the Middle East in case the IS mindset will spread. I do Strongly disagree with your view on this case. I Believe where two fight, there are two to blame, and the one who invade an other country, can talk all they want, but must also have the courage to look at its own actions... If you believe in the freedom of speech, you must apply this freedom to all, also to the ones you disagree with fundamentally like IS.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
We like rallying against the other team. Feels good, therapeutic.
Git them Evildoers taking away my freedom.
Watching old episodes of Family Guy that makes fun of our hidden agenda of securing oil. Actually it's sad.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
We in the west do like to spread our influence, that's for sure. But if we stop and think about it, that could be a good thing. There is much about western culture that is attractive. If we went to Iraq with guitars instead of bombs we might encourage more groups like Acrassicauda (the underground heavy metal band from Baghdad) and fewer groups like ISIS. And while were at it, maybe we could trade some guitars for a few Ouds. That middle east instrument worked very very well on some of Sandy Bull recordings*. Indeed, Aafke!
* Here's a great example of that shared culture:
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
Very funny movie!
And Charlise...what a purely gorgeous woman!
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every.
Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.