Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

rr165892

callen said:

rr165892 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

rr165892 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

rr165892 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

Brian,If we want to help those here at home we are going to need to do it not just with Govt but with the benevolence of the private sector.Not just charities and orginazations but Also wealthy individuals and buisness charities(think Ronald McDonald House,Bill Gates charities,etc).
It is crucial that we protect our interests from a financial perspective,in order to continue the work we need to do at home.
We can't say Fuck it and let other economies and Markets take big hits and losses hits without feeling it's butterfly effect here.Even the ones some think are evil(oil,resources) must be kept stable to not offset our markets here.

I know it dosent fit into the utopian vision of peace love and help ,but you can't have the utopia and help the helpless without it.As strong as we are as a union we have an obligation to reach beyond our borders to also help.

For example ,Yes we have drought here,but should we not try to also bring clean water to remote areas of Africa?Or should we not respond to Enviormental or Natural issues because we have them also at home.

And yes the big bad military machine is also needed worldwide to keep transport ,rail and air and shipping lanes free and clear of pirates and those who want to stop the free flow of commerce goods and services.Its our job to help police the worlds idiots who want to do no good stuff with Nuclear items not just weapons but waste.

We have good allies all over who maybe couldn't stand up to bigger,stronger regimes.We can't let them be bullied.It will hurt us domestically in the long run.
And we cannot just sit by while non state actors continue to try to force there perversions onto innocent people.Letting them take over countries and gain power is not the right thing to do.Regardless of who gave them power to begin with.

Say what? Are you serious?

Of course.Whats your issue?

Interesting that you selected Ronald McDonald House, a charity for families with sick kids enduring long stays in hospitals and the wealthy individual Bill Gates. Why not the Koch Brothers, Sheldon Adleson or any number of wealthy conservative donors? The upcoming presidential election is going to cost each side close to one billion. Imagine what that kind of money could do, in say, I don’t know, Baltimore or Liberia? So, US military intervention is to be used to keep the stock market stable, regardless of which stock market it is and where its located?

I guess you’d be in favor of increasing the US contributions to the UN? If not, why? What transport, rail, air and shipping lanes are you referring to? Somalia has pirates. Should we invade Somalia? The Straight of Hormuz, the Straight of Malacca and the Panama and Suez Canals are patrolled and protected by the US but that doesn’t mean we need to invade Malaysia, Iran or Syria or re-invade Iraq. Would you be in favor of returning to a 90% top corporate tax rate? That’s what it was in the 1950s and early 60s when the US was doing good all over the world (subjective). All of these things cost money and you can’t not pay for it. Its one thing to protect the free flow of goods and services and quite another to actively meddle in another country’s internal affairs, invade or intimidate another country for economic reasons, like what the US did for Dole, Chiquita and Good Year. Why is “welfare” good overseas but not at home? And if your reference of “perversions” refers to the Islamic State, why not let the Saudi’s, Iranians, Kuwaitis, et al deal with it? Or Canada, China or the Europeans? Why is it always the US policing the world? 70 years of US meddling in the Middle East and what do we have to show for it?

Where to start? Im not sure how you pulled all that out of my post? I didn't advocate for any invasion.And I'm not sure what your trying to say.I was simply saying that you just can't say fuck it ,we need to focus on the poor here at home and turn a blind eye to world affairs.Its all intertwined.are you really manufacturing an argument here?

No we should not return to higher corporate rates,but I didn't bring up taxation.
I didn't bring up the Koch brothers because I thought 2 examples was enough to make my point.
I mentioned nothing about meddling in other countries affairs,I'm talking about about helping and supporting.
And I have plenty of problems with human rights and personal freedom restrictions in the Middle East.But that's not what we are discussing.Why bring that up when you know damn well I was referencing IS and how they are perverting a peaceful religion.
Read it next time!

Funny, I did read it. How much more does the US have to do abroad. If we don't take care of shit closer to home, we'll collapse from within. And the Koch brothers would rather buy an election(s) than help the meek overseas. Why shouldn't the inhabitants of the Middle East deal with their issues? No need to get pissy about it.

I had a shitty day,did not mean to project it toward you.I apologize for that.I need a beer,a shower and a bowl.I will leave word with the barkeep in the lounge for you to put a top shelf beverage of your choice on my tab.

But,

It seems the rhetoric in these threads runs along the same path over and over regardless of issue.Like a big liberal circle jerk.I get that ,and it comes with territory here.

There is room for other schools of thought.Not every answer is that The USA is bad,Republicans are Bad,Corparations are bad,Money is evil,We started every problem in the world.Blah,blah,blah.
Sometimes it's ok to explore some of the other angles and opinions to the same issues.
Not all of us are partisan and stuck in a myopic view of every issue.Not talking about you personally,but just saying.

Not a liberal thing it's the right thing.

What is?

badbrains

BS44325 said:

The only thing I prefer is results and be it Chicago, Baltimore, Cleveland, Iraq and/or Yemen the post-JFK "liberal" track record is always the same....lack of security, poor business opportunity, reduced education quality, poverty and racial strife.

The democratic party is living in the 60's and on economic policy it is being soundly rejected on the state and local level. There is a reason why the majority of governors and state houses are overwhelmingly republican right now. The only answer liberals have for the problems in society is "more money!". That is essentially the essence of your whole post...if only we invested on A or spent more money on B! Since the war on poverty you have spent and spent and spent with only worsening results. Obama and the democratic congress passed a massive stimulus in his first term with absolutely zero to show for it. The economy has just contracted in the first quarter! At some point you have to open your eyes and recognize that what you are constantly calling for is not working! But no....Just this morning we find Democratic Governor Malloy of Connecticut passing a massive tax increase that has forced major corporation such as GE, Aetnas and Travelers to consider leaving the state. Connecticut has chosen to go the way of Illinois instead of Texas and the lower/middle class people of that state will suffer the most for it. So I repeat...Chicago (or Chiraq as Spike Lee calls it), Baltimore, Cleveland are the product of liberal policies. In about 10 years you'll be able to add Hartford to the list.

Wasn't it a republican who bankrupted California?

brianlux

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

rr165892

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

B-Lux - D-Lux,First I don't care If anyone is supporting something I say,It's an opinion,that is all.Some of my thoughts work out for general population thinking here,some don't.I don't expect or want to always fall into one way of thinking.You know By now where I stand On things.

I commented on Cals response to BS.

Dude (BS) gets grilled on these forms.Sometimes he deserves it like we all do ,but many times he dosent and has some good takes on things.
But if I agree with his statements or a perspective I am going to say so.These convos twist and turn all the time.Indont get Why people keep fabricating things I supposedly said?

I am not debating fighting a Bogus war.Where you getting that?I Just reread my last few posts.Not seeing it.

As an independent I feel I can cherry pick from both sides of the isle.Critique is warranted On All our "leaders and Lawmakers" regardless of party.And generalized statements get thrown around on these boards all the time.But most of time it's directed at Republicans,conservatives,And those who don't fall lock step in with the masses.its a 2 way street right?And it's all good.

brianlux

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

B-Lux - D-Lux,First I don't care If anyone is supporting something I say,It's an opinion,that is all.Some of my thoughts work out for general population thinking here,some don't.I don't expect or want to always fall into one way of thinking.You know By now where I stand On things.

I commented on Cals response to BS.

Dude (BS) gets grilled on these forms.Sometimes he deserves it like we all do ,but many times he dosent and has some good takes on things.
But if I agree with his statements or a perspective I am going to say so.These convos twist and turn all the time.Indont get Why people keep fabricating things I supposedly said?

I am not debating fighting a Bogus war.Where you getting that?I Just reread my last few posts.Not seeing it.

As an independent I feel I can cherry pick from both sides of the isle.Critique is warranted On All our "leaders and Lawmakers" regardless of party.And generalized statements get thrown around on these boards all the time.But most of time it's directed at Republicans,conservatives,And those who don't fall lock step in with the masses.its a 2 way street right?And it's all good.

No worries, rr. Show me a thread on which we haven't deveated on to some degree and I'll show you... well shit, nada! Haha! Just keeping us on our toes.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

B-Lux - D-Lux,First I don't care If anyone is supporting something I say,It's an opinion,that is all.Some of my thoughts work out for general population thinking here,some don't.I don't expect or want to always fall into one way of thinking.You know By now where I stand On things.

I commented on Cals response to BS.

Dude (BS) gets grilled on these forms.Sometimes he deserves it like we all do ,but many times he dosent and has some good takes on things.
But if I agree with his statements or a perspective I am going to say so.These convos twist and turn all the time.Indont get Why people keep fabricating things I supposedly said?

I am not debating fighting a Bogus war.Where you getting that?I Just reread my last few posts.Not seeing it.

As an independent I feel I can cherry pick from both sides of the isle.Critique is warranted On All our "leaders and Lawmakers" regardless of party.And generalized statements get thrown around on these boards all the time.But most of time it's directed at Republicans,conservatives,And those who don't fall lock step in with the masses.its a 2 way street right?And it's all good.

RR...

Sometimes I think people wish for all to take their place in what PJ Soul referred to as the 'circle jerk' here on the MT.

The unpopular opinion should be welcome to those wishing to engage in meaningful discourse because there cannot be meaningful discourse without conflicting viewpoints; however, lately those offering the unpopular opinion seem to quickly become the unpopular person.

Many simply refrain from posting here for their tendency to go against the grain. In many cases, it seems as if they are chased from these boards. It sucks that this is so.

And no... this is not a veiled shot at Brian. It is a general observation regarding the tone or atmosphere of this forum in recent months (I likely have as much to do with this as anyone).

brianlux

Not taken as such, Thirty B's but thanks for verifying.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

brianlux said:

Not taken as such, Thirty B's but thanks for verifying.

Thanks for understanding!

BS44325

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

This is ridiculous. Halifax brought up conservative policies in liberal cities. I am responding to that point. By no means is that a dodge of the topic at hand.

Speaking of the topic at hand...CNN released a poll today that now shows more Americans blame Obama than Bush for the current state of affairs in Iraq. The withdrawal has been a disaster whether you think the war was bogus or not.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/isis-campaign-poll-iraq-war/index.html

brianlux

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

This is ridiculous. Halifax brought up conservative policies in liberal cities. I am responding to that point. By no means is that a dodge of the topic at hand.

Speaking of the topic at hand...CNN released a poll today that now shows more Americans blame Obama than Bush for the current state of affairs in Iraq. The withdrawal has been a disaster whether you think the war was bogus or not.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/isis-campaign-poll-iraq-war/index.html

Okey dokey.

Halifax2TheMax

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

This is ridiculous. Halifax brought up conservative policies in liberal cities. I am responding to that point. By no means is that a dodge of the topic at hand.

Speaking of the topic at hand...CNN released a poll today that now shows more Americans blame Obama than Bush for the current state of affairs in Iraq. The withdrawal has been a disaster whether you think the war was bogus or not.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/isis-campaign-poll-iraq-war/index.html

What is ridiculous is your insistence that the Iraq war was somehow justified to begin with, despite evidence to the contrary and that Obama should be blamed for the withdrawal, again despite the facts and that the US should stay in Iraq until, well, who the fuck knows, because we "broke it." Also, that I should somehow "own it" when I was against the invasion of Iraq in the run up to the war and I voted for Obama twice. He ran on not having voted to authorize the war and a second time on bringing the troops home. I eagerly await another video from your prestigious Prager University. Because you wish it to be or repeat it to yourself over and over doesn't make it so. When you dismiss facts to the extent that you do, you're viewed as delusional.

BS44325

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

rr and BS, you guys are on a whole different subject here. You've figured out that no one is supporting the notion that we should still be fighting a bogus war so now you've moved on to making generalized statements about who and what democrats and liberal are all about. Interesting.

This is ridiculous. Halifax brought up conservative policies in liberal cities. I am responding to that point. By no means is that a dodge of the topic at hand.

Speaking of the topic at hand...CNN released a poll today that now shows more Americans blame Obama than Bush for the current state of affairs in Iraq. The withdrawal has been a disaster whether you think the war was bogus or not.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/isis-campaign-poll-iraq-war/index.html

What is ridiculous is your insistence that the Iraq war was somehow justified to begin with, despite evidence to the contrary and that Obama should be blamed for the withdrawal, again despite the facts and that the US should stay in Iraq until, well, who the fuck knows, because we "broke it." Also, that I should somehow "own it" when I was against the invasion of Iraq in the run up to the war and I voted for Obama twice. He ran on not having voted to authorize the war and a second time on bringing the troops home. I eagerly await another video from your prestigious Prager University. Because you wish it to be or repeat it to yourself over and over doesn't make it so. When you dismiss facts to the extent that you do, you're viewed as delusional.

You don't own the invasion portion just the post-surge withdrawal that you voted for.

Halifax2TheMax

You realize the post surge success is a mirage, right? You realize that the US paid off the Sunni tribes not to fight with billions in US cash, right? You know that, huh? So, was it the US troops or the billions in US dollars? So, the US funded what eventually became ISIS. Frankly, I'm very happy my nation's billions are no longer being wasted down a rabbit hole and that my nation's military members aren't dying for a lost cause. Keep spewing your neocon war mongering and please let me know when Canada devotes more than 1% of GDP to defense. Funny, coming from a neocon in a "welfare" country. Queue the Prager University YouTube link of how great Canada's military is and how they're fighting the evil doers.

brianlux

BS, you're certainly allowed to have a minority opinion but at this point it's hard not to believe that maintaining support for the war in Iraq is not largely based on stubbornness. Since 2003, the support for that war has steadily dropped. Knowing what we know now, most Americans, even many of those who were fervent flag waving Americans at the time agree that it was a bad idea. It's just like Vietnam. How many people today believe that was a good idea? Almost no one. Not too many years from now, the same will be true for Iraq.

BS44325

brianlux said:

BS, you're certainly allowed to have a minority opinion but at this point it's hard not to believe that maintaining support for the war in Iraq is not largely based on stubbornness. Since 2003, the support for that war has steadily dropped. Knowing what we know now, most Americans, even many of those who were fervent flag waving Americans at the time agree that it was a bad idea. It's just like Vietnam. How many people today believe that was a good idea? Almost no one. Not too many years from now, the same will be true for Iraq.

It is a self-fullfilled bad idea. Only a few short years ago it still had the ability to be a great idea. It could have been a stable country with the potential to foster a real arab spring across the middle east while sending extremism into retreat. This isn't just me saying this...as per the Joe Biden video the Obama administration agreed. With only a little more commitment I truly believe this could have been achieved and if possible how great would that have been?

You may say that I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one.

Halifax2TheMax

Define "a little more commitment." And at the least, " a little more commitment" would have violated Iraq's sovereignty, yes or no?

brianlux

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

BS, you're certainly allowed to have a minority opinion but at this point it's hard not to believe that maintaining support for the war in Iraq is not largely based on stubbornness. Since 2003, the support for that war has steadily dropped. Knowing what we know now, most Americans, even many of those who were fervent flag waving Americans at the time agree that it was a bad idea. It's just like Vietnam. How many people today believe that was a good idea? Almost no one. Not too many years from now, the same will be true for Iraq.

It is a self-fullfilled bad idea. Only a few short years ago it still had the ability to be a great idea. It could have been a stable country with the potential to foster a real arab spring across the middle east while sending extremism into retreat. This isn't just me saying this...as per the Joe Biden video the Obama administration agreed. With only a little more commitment I truly believe this could have been achieved and if possible how great would that have been?

You may say that I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one.

Oh, I totally agree that all the middle-east countries could have been great countries and at one time were. But our interference, bombing, the radioactive pollution we left behind, etc. destroyed any chance off a decent relationship with those places and destroyed much of their art, architecture and culture and caused a lot of unnecessary deaths. This is going to look bad on a resume.

InHiding80

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

The only thing I prefer is results and be it Chicago, Baltimore, Cleveland, Iraq and/or Yemen the post-JFK "liberal" track record is always the same....lack of security, poor business opportunity, reduced education quality, poverty and racial strife.

The democratic party is living in the 60's and on economic policy it is being soundly rejected on the state and local level. There is a reason why the majority of governors and state houses are overwhelmingly republican right now. The only answer liberals have for the problems in society is "more money!". That is essentially the essence of your whole post...if only we invested on A or spent more money on B! Since the war on poverty you have spent and spent and spent with only worsening results. Obama and the democratic congress passed a massive stimulus in his first term with absolutely zero to show for it. The economy has just contracted in the first quarter! At some point you have to open your eyes and recognize that what you are constantly calling for is not working! But no....Just this morning we find Democratic Governor Malloy of Connecticut passing a massive tax increase that has forced major corporation such as GE, Aetnas and Travelers to consider leaving the state. Connecticut has chosen to go the way of Illinois instead of Texas and the lower/middle class people of that state will suffer the most for it. So I repeat...Chicago (or Chiraq as Spike Lee calls it), Baltimore, Cleveland are the product of liberal policies. In about 10 years you'll be able to add Hartford to the list.

Wasn't it a republican who bankrupted California?

That BS selective memory again: "Schwarzenegger is magically not guilty of bankrupting because he's republican like me. Derp!" If admitting that Dubya sucked meant admitting the Earth is round, he'd say it's flat without any trace of irony. Scum like him are the reason why Idiocracy is the most prophetic movie ever.

BS44325

InHiding80 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

The only thing I prefer is results and be it Chicago, Baltimore, Cleveland, Iraq and/or Yemen the post-JFK "liberal" track record is always the same....lack of security, poor business opportunity, reduced education quality, poverty and racial strife.

The democratic party is living in the 60's and on economic policy it is being soundly rejected on the state and local level. There is a reason why the majority of governors and state houses are overwhelmingly republican right now. The only answer liberals have for the problems in society is "more money!". That is essentially the essence of your whole post...if only we invested on A or spent more money on B! Since the war on poverty you have spent and spent and spent with only worsening results. Obama and the democratic congress passed a massive stimulus in his first term with absolutely zero to show for it. The economy has just contracted in the first quarter! At some point you have to open your eyes and recognize that what you are constantly calling for is not working! But no....Just this morning we find Democratic Governor Malloy of Connecticut passing a massive tax increase that has forced major corporation such as GE, Aetnas and Travelers to consider leaving the state. Connecticut has chosen to go the way of Illinois instead of Texas and the lower/middle class people of that state will suffer the most for it. So I repeat...Chicago (or Chiraq as Spike Lee calls it), Baltimore, Cleveland are the product of liberal policies. In about 10 years you'll be able to add Hartford to the list.

Wasn't it a republican who bankrupted California?

That BS selective memory again: "Schwarzenegger is magically not guilty of bankrupting because he's republican like me. Derp!" If admitting that Dubya sucked meant admitting the Earth is round, he'd say it's flat without any trace of irony. Scum like him are the reason why Idiocracy is the most prophetic movie ever.

See this is typical of the crap that gets spewed on here that most people find so offensive because it is both obtuse and purposefully distorts:

1) yes republicans participated in bankrupting california including schwarzenneger. We were discussing liberal policies vs conservative policies as they are now defined...not republican vs democrat. There can be conservative leaning democrats (Joe Manchin) and liberal leaning republicans. It is not party but policy that is the problem.

2) "dubya" participated in adding tremendously to the current national debt load. This is how the tea party came to be...it was a response to Bush and large government spending by both parties. I can and do criticize Bush all the time...when I think it is warranted.

Use the word "scum" towards me if you like. I have the thickest skin in the biz so I couldn't care less but please realize you are lightweight debating amongst real minds that have an appreciation for nuance.

BS44325

Halifax2TheMax said:

Define "a little more commitment." And at the least, " a little more commitment" would have violated Iraq's sovereignty, yes or no?

A little more commitment is a long term presence such as germany or south korea in order to backstop local government forces that need our support.

Would that have violated sovereignty? The invasion violated sovereignty. Restoring it is important but it cannot be the only determining factor when a collapse such as what we are witnessing is the alternative.

Lastly...to clarify...this is all a discussion of the past right now. Since the fall of Ramadi I have not advocated for re-invasion. As I have said I believe the war in this form is now lost and the opportunities that might have been available to the international community over the last year are now gone. The only thing I think we can do now is try to contain Iran/ISIS and backstop our allies such as Jordan, Egypt, Saudi etc.