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Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
in A Moving Train
http://youtu.be/tLteUGkvpOc

Oh to be back in 2009-10. The good old days. Stable Iraq...arab spring...green revolution. Opportunity lost.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,013
    Withdrawal of US or Canadian troops or some or all of the "coalition of the willing?"
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Withdrawal of US or Canadian troops or some or all of the "coalition of the willing?"

    Your choice.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,013
    US troops, yes. Canadian troops, no.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,013
    When Canada invests as much as the US does in waging war, in both blood and treasure, then maybe I'll change my mind.

    https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    Uh yeah.

    Status of forces agreement, signed by GWB, guaranteed we would be out by the agreed upon date. Obama tried to keep us there. But they kicked us out.

    Don't pin the withdrawal on Obama, he could not make Iraq allow us to stay.

    You can't blame the successor, a man who never supported the war, for the fuck up of the predecessor.

    Let's cut the history revision crap please.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    Uh yeah.

    Status of forces agreement, signed by GWB, guaranteed we would be out by the agreed upon date. Obama tried to keep us there. But they kicked us out.

    Don't pin the withdrawal on Obama, he could not make Iraq allow us to stay.

    You can't blame the successor, a man who never supported the war, for the fuck up of the predecessor.

    Let's cut the history revision crap please.

    So all things being equal you think the troops should have stayed?
  • InHiding80InHiding80 Posts: 7,623
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    When Canada invests as much as the US does in waging war, in both blood and treasure, then maybe I'll change my mind.

    https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/


    Let's just hope Terrence and Philip don't offend Sheila Broflovski again.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,014
    Yeah, of course. Never should have been there in the first place.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,516
    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    The invasion never should have taken place! The world had to ignore the war drums and war mongers....

    All the West did was fuel the engines of the hatred against western thinking, and western arrogance of deciding what is best for the rest of the world, out of pure and simple greed....
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Knowing what we know now? Shit, how many of us were saying back then not to even go? Where were you then?
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,516
    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    I agree!
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    You just killed his hard on. Way to go Jose. What a buzz kill.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Aafke said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    I agree!
    Ok great...now how about answering the question at hand with respect to the withdrawal?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    "Knowing what we know now"
    I think there is quite a bit of evidence that those who orchestrated it knew this exact sort of destabilization would occur before they invaded in the first place! The evidence suggests it was part of the motivation that originated decades ago.

    That being said, yes I would still support the troop withdrawal...It would be nice if we didn't find terrorist groups into power in the first place, but that will never stop. ISIS is a symptom, it is not the disease. If it wasn't Iraq it would be elsewhere.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    Yes
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    rgambs said:

    "Knowing what we know now"
    I think there is quite a bit of evidence that those who orchestrated it knew this exact sort of destabilization would occur before they invaded in the first place! The evidence suggests it was part of the motivation that originated decades ago.

    That being said, yes I would still support the troop withdrawal...It would be nice if we didn't find terrorist groups into power in the first place, but that will never stop. ISIS is a symptom, it is not the disease. If it wasn't Iraq it would be elsewhere.

    Not only is ISIS a symptom instead of the disease, in my opinion, this symptom is meanly caused by the idiotic why Iraq was invaded in the first place, under false pretenses!
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Like blaming the surgeon for the actions if the shooter
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    The Us should not be involved. So yes.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Candid answers appreciated. I tend to go with the Robert Gates position. Good analysis on Libya as well.

    https://youtu.be/Fmg9MHsZfHI
  • InHiding80InHiding80 Posts: 7,623
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Like blaming the surgeon for the actions if the shooter
    Blame Ben Carson!

    He voted nay on veteran's aid so fuck that chickenhawk anyways.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    Aafke said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    I agree!
    Ok great...now how about answering the question at hand with respect to the withdrawal?
    BS44325 said:

    Candid answers appreciated. I tend to go with the Robert Gates position. Good analysis on Libya as well.

    https://youtu.be/Fmg9MHsZfHI

    Why do we need plan in Libya? Why do I have to pay my taxes and risk my nephews safety to interject into another countries problems.

    You hold Raytheon stock? Boeing? Northrop? What gives? You want to police the world? How does Libya affect you?
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Aafke said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Because I don't believe we should just dismiss the total fuck up of invasion & death of all those lives as if they can just be replaced with a new generation of soldiers how about we learn and never make a mistake like that again ...
    I agree!
    Ok great...now how about answering the question at hand with respect to the withdrawal?
    BS44325 said:

    Candid answers appreciated. I tend to go with the Robert Gates position. Good analysis on Libya as well.

    https://youtu.be/Fmg9MHsZfHI

    Why do we need plan in Libya? Why do I have to pay my taxes and risk my nephews safety to interject into another countries problems.

    You hold Raytheon stock? Boeing? Northrop? What gives? You want to police the world? How does Libya affect you?
    We're arguing the same point. Not my call to invade or occupy Libya. I don't think Robert Gates agreed with it either. That was your candidate Hillary who you are apparently supporting. Maybe you should ask her what that was all about.
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    Knowing what we knew then, I still don't support an invasion. I know, not the point.
  • muskydanmuskydan Posts: 1,013
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Like blaming the surgeon for the actions if the shooter
    that's some good stuff there….also Like blaming the Police for the actions of someone resisting them….BARF

  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    muskydan said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    How about knowing that if asshat Chaney & bush didn't push for that war we could of saved 4thousand Amrrican lives , how about we come to terms with that 1st

    Why can't we come to terms with both?
    Like blaming the surgeon for the actions if the shooter
    that's some good stuff there….also Like blaming the Police for the actions of someone resisting them….BARF

    Or the 13 bullets instead of the person in the uniform shooting the unarmed civilian.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    BS44325 said:

    gimmesometruth27 said:

    Uh yeah.

    Status of forces agreement, signed by GWB, guaranteed we would be out by the agreed upon date. Obama tried to keep us there. But they kicked us out.

    Don't pin the withdrawal on Obama, he could not make Iraq allow us to stay.

    You can't blame the successor, a man who never supported the war, for the fuck up of the predecessor.

    Let's cut the history revision crap please.

    So all things being equal you think the troops should have stayed?
    no. they never should have been there to begin with.

    i said it in 2003 back when people on this message board were telling me to get the fuck out of america. i protested. just like pearl jam, just like the dixie chicks. just like the countless other ones. we were right.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    now that i re-read this, the entire premise is stupid.

    "knowing what we know now."

    we know now what we knew then. that iraq did not have wmds. that iraq posed no immediate threat to the united states or the middle east. hans blix was right. plame's husband was right. the administration knew it, and we went in anyway.

    the world is never going to forgive us for that one.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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