Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

Last-12-Exit

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

badbrains

Last-12-Exit said:

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter.

Aafke

One man's terrorist is an other man's hero... terrorist, criminals and dictators are good or bad, it's all in the eye of the beholder. It's all just a matter of perspective. The western perspective isn't the only one, and who says it's the right one?

rgambs

Last-12-Exit said:

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

I think they do bear responsibility for the suffering they cause. I think that we should bear responsibility for giving them money and weapons as well.

rr165892

I don't think we can turn a blind eye when human rights are being violated.I know we are not the world police,but we have to help stick up for those who can't.
Sometimes that's ugly buisness.When is armed conflict ever clean.
Until people quit trying to force religion and rules on others, this cycle will just keep goin round and round.

gimmesometruth27

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

Last-12-Exit

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I agree with that 100%.

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter.

That doesn't make them less of a criminal. Bin Laden may have been a freedom fighter to some, but he's still a terrorist.

Aafke

Last-12-Exit said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I agree with that 100%.

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter.

That doesn't make them less of a criminal. Bin Laden may have been a freedom fighter to some, but he's still a terrorist.

From your perspective that's true, but from another perspective the military invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was a purely imperialistic act, a crime against humanity. It's all a matter of perspective...

rr165892

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

brianlux

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Romeo Dallaire believed that the west- rich with its advantages- had a moral responsibility to assist people in need. He was referring to the brutal non-response to the Rwandan genocide.

I tended to agree with him. If people are being slaughtered and we have the means to assist... it's cold and indifferent to stand idle.

gimmesometruth27

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

exactly my thoughts. what are our interests around the world?

so far our interests are to have a military footprint in every corner of the world to make sure the developing countries don't get all upity and try to throw us out. we will take their land, take their resources, keep their people poor, insure that friendly parties are in power, and just maintain status quo. that is the american interest. america uber alles.

Aafke

gimmesometruth27 said:

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

exactly my thoughts. what are our interests around the world?

so far our interests are to have a military footprint in every corner of the world to make sure the developing countries don't get all upity and try to throw us out. we will take their land, take their resources, keep their people poor, insure that friendly parties are in power, and just maintain status quo. that is the american interest. america uber alles.

I agree!

rr165892

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

Brian,If we want to help those here at home we are going to need to do it not just with Govt but with the benevolence of the private sector.Not just charities and orginazations but Also wealthy individuals and buisness charities(think Ronald McDonald House,Bill Gates charities,etc).
It is crucial that we protect our interests from a financial perspective,in order to continue the work we need to do at home.
We can't say Fuck it and let other economies and Markets take big hits and losses hits without feeling it's butterfly effect here.Even the ones some think are evil(oil,resources) must be kept stable to not offset our markets here.

I know it dosent fit into the utopian vision of peace love and help ,but you can't have the utopia and help the helpless without it.As strong as we are as a union we have an obligation to reach beyond our borders to also help.

For example ,Yes we have drought here,but should we not try to also bring clean water to remote areas of Africa?Or should we not respond to Enviormental or Natural issues because we have them also at home.

And yes the big bad military machine is also needed worldwide to keep transport ,rail and air and shipping lanes free and clear of pirates and those who want to stop the free flow of commerce goods and services.Its our job to help police the worlds idiots who want to do no good stuff with Nuclear items not just weapons but waste.

We have good allies all over who maybe couldn't stand up to bigger,stronger regimes.We can't let them be bullied.It will hurt us domestically in the long run.
And we cannot just sit by while non state actors continue to try to force there perversions onto innocent people.Letting them take over countries and gain power is not the right thing to do.Regardless of who gave them power to begin with.

rgambs

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Romeo Dallaire believed that the west- rich with its advantages- had a moral responsibility to assist people in need. He was referring to the brutal non-response to the Rwandan genocide.

I tended to agree with him. If people are being slaughtered and we have the means to assist... it's cold and indifferent to stand idle.

I agree with this for sure. Rwanda, Darfur, Armenia, Cambodia...these are places where our military could have done some real good. Unfortunately they weren't politically expedient enough for intervention. That is where the question of imperialism really comes in for me.

gimmesometruth27

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Romeo Dallaire believed that the west- rich with its advantages- had a moral responsibility to assist people in need. He was referring to the brutal non-response to the Rwandan genocide.

I tended to agree with him. If people are being slaughtered and we have the means to assist... it's cold and indifferent to stand idle.

I agree with this for sure. Rwanda, Darfur, Armenia, Cambodia...these are places where our military could have done some real good. Unfortunately they weren't politically expedient enough for intervention. That is where the question of imperialism really comes in for me.

not politically expedient? or nothing in it for us? like oil or other resources.

brianlux

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

Brian,If we want to help those here at home we are going to need to do it not just with Govt but with the benevolence of the private sector.Not just charities and orginazations but Also wealthy individuals and buisness charities(think Ronald McDonald House,Bill Gates charities,etc).
It is crucial that we protect our interests from a financial perspective,in order to continue the work we need to do at home.
We can't say Fuck it and let other economies and Markets take big hits and losses hits without feeling it's butterfly effect here.Even the ones some think are evil(oil,resources) must be kept stable to not offset our markets here.

I know it dosent fit into the utopian vision of peace love and help ,but you can't have the utopia and help the helpless without it.As strong as we are as a union we have an obligation to reach beyond our borders to also help.

For example ,Yes we have drought here,but should we not try to also bring clean water to remote areas of Africa?Or should we not respond to Enviormental or Natural issues because we have them also at home.

And yes the big bad military machine is also needed worldwide to keep transport ,rail and air and shipping lanes free and clear of pirates and those who want to stop the free flow of commerce goods and services.Its our job to help police the worlds idiots who want to do no good stuff with Nuclear items not just weapons but waste.

We have good allies all over who maybe couldn't stand up to bigger,stronger regimes.We can't let them be bullied.It will hurt us domestically in the long run.
And we cannot just sit by while non state actors continue to try to force there perversions onto innocent people.Letting them take over countries and gain power is not the right thing to do.Regardless of who gave them power to begin with.

Yes, there are a few wealthy philanthropists but, really, this in not the aim of corporate America.

As for the classic vision of Utopia- that might someday exist in a few isolated areas after the complete collapse of civilization. It might be able to come about with a massive awakening or enlightenment of sorts. But it always amuses me when I am seen an a Utopian. I don't expect my idealist notions or a Utopian society to evolve. I only aim for the top of the mountain hoping we might actually get half way there.

As much as I sometimes probably seem like the type to sit wearing beads over a tie-dyed t-shirt smoking dope all day hugging a tree while chanting a mantra, burning incense, soaking in a wood burning hot tub, and dropping acid while listening to psychedelic music, I'm not that one-sided a kind of guy. I've never worn beads.

I'll get back to you on this some more later but I'm really in the mood to listen to some Fugazi right now.

rr165892

gimmesometruth27 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Romeo Dallaire believed that the west- rich with its advantages- had a moral responsibility to assist people in need. He was referring to the brutal non-response to the Rwandan genocide.

I tended to agree with him. If people are being slaughtered and we have the means to assist... it's cold and indifferent to stand idle.

I agree with this for sure. Rwanda, Darfur, Armenia, Cambodia...these are places where our military could have done some real good. Unfortunately they weren't politically expedient enough for intervention. That is where the question of imperialism really comes in for me.

not politically expedient? or nothing in it for us? like oil or other resources.

I think you are over emphasizing the need for there to be "something in it for us" Rod.We do plenty of good humanitarian and enviormental outreach All the time,In All corners of the earth.
Sure some of our involvements are opportunistic but not all.I think it diminishes the work of those who do truly care and don't have financial motives when we paint them all with one brush.

rr165892

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

rr165892 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I'm not opposed to seeing what's happening in our own backyard and working on fixing some of what is broken(as long as we aren't just throwing more wasteful entitlements around).but you still can't ignore our interests around the globe.Unfortunatly they all tie together.

But rr, what are our interests around the globe? International cooperation, mutual exchange of cultures and working for the common good? Or control, power, and appropriation of resources? And which of those is ultimately better for everyone?

Brian,If we want to help those here at home we are going to need to do it not just with Govt but with the benevolence of the private sector.Not just charities and orginazations but Also wealthy individuals and buisness charities(think Ronald McDonald House,Bill Gates charities,etc).
It is crucial that we protect our interests from a financial perspective,in order to continue the work we need to do at home.
We can't say Fuck it and let other economies and Markets take big hits and losses hits without feeling it's butterfly effect here.Even the ones some think are evil(oil,resources) must be kept stable to not offset our markets here.

I know it dosent fit into the utopian vision of peace love and help ,but you can't have the utopia and help the helpless without it.As strong as we are as a union we have an obligation to reach beyond our borders to also help.

For example ,Yes we have drought here,but should we not try to also bring clean water to remote areas of Africa?Or should we not respond to Enviormental or Natural issues because we have them also at home.

And yes the big bad military machine is also needed worldwide to keep transport ,rail and air and shipping lanes free and clear of pirates and those who want to stop the free flow of commerce goods and services.Its our job to help police the worlds idiots who want to do no good stuff with Nuclear items not just weapons but waste.

We have good allies all over who maybe couldn't stand up to bigger,stronger regimes.We can't let them be bullied.It will hurt us domestically in the long run.
And we cannot just sit by while non state actors continue to try to force there perversions onto innocent people.Letting them take over countries and gain power is not the right thing to do.Regardless of who gave them power to begin with.

Yes, there are a few wealthy philanthropists but, really, this in not the aim of corporate America.

As for the classic vision of Utopia- that might someday exist in a few isolated areas after the complete collapse of civilization. It might be able to come about with a massive awakening or enlightenment of sorts. But it always amuses me when I am seen an a Utopian. I don't expect my idealist notions or a Utopian society to evolve. I only aim for the top of the mountain hoping we might actually get half way there.

As much as I sometimes probably seem like the type to sit wearing beads over a tie-dyed t-shirt smoking dope all day hugging a tree while chanting a mantra, burning incense, soaking in a wood burning hot tub, and dropping acid while listening to psychedelic music, I'm not that one-sided a kind of guy. I've never worn beads.

I'll get back to you on this some more later but I'm really in the mood to listen to some Fugazi right now.

hippies listen to the Dead not Fugazi.So there you go.But if it makes you feel better,I think you would look stunning in beads.lol

Last-12-Exit

Aafke said:

Last-12-Exit said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

americans are responsible for the pain in suffering and poverty and death in their own country. how about we start fixing that first.

I agree with that 100%.

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Why can't the terrorist groups, dictators, and criminals bear the responsibility for the suffering they cause? Because the west is arrogant?

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter.

That doesn't make them less of a criminal. Bin Laden may have been a freedom fighter to some, but he's still a terrorist.

From your perspective that's true, but from another perspective the military invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was a purely imperialistic act, a crime against humanity. It's all a matter of perspective...

I agree with you about Iraq. I disagree about Afghanistan. That was a direct response to 9/11 and 100% legal. There's a reason why the world helped us invade Afghanistan but not Iraq.