Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

eldarion75

completely and utterly unjustifiable...this is a genocide.

At least 15 dead after UN-run school in Gaza shelled
Building was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Gaza health ministry says

At least 15 people were killed and many wounded today when Israeli forces shelled a UN-run school sheltering Palestinian refugees in northern Gaza, said a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, Ashraf al-Qidra.
The director of a local hospital said various medical centres around Beit Hanoun were receiving the wounded.
“Such a massacre requires more than one hospital to deal with it,” said Ayman Hamdan, director of the Beit Hanoun hospital.
A Reuters photographer at the scene said pools of blood had collected on the ground and on student desks in the courtyard of the school near the apparent impact mark of the shell.
Scores of crying families who had been living in the school ran with their children to the hospital where the victims were being treated a few hundred meters away.
Laila Al-Shinbari, a woman who was at school when it was shelled, told Reuters families had gathered in the courtyard expecting to be evacuated shortly in a Red Cross convoy.
“All of us sat in one place when suddenly four shells landed on our heads ... Bodies were on the ground, (there was) blood and screams. My son is dead and all my relatives are wounded including my other kids,” she wept.
Chris Gunness, spokesman for the main UN agency in Gaza UNRWA, confirmed the strike and criticised Israel.
“Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army ... Over the course of the day UNRWA tried to coordinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians to leave and it was never granted,” Mr Gunness said on his Twitter page.
Earlier today, Mr Gunness told Reuters that Israeli forces had bombed UN shelters on three separate occasions since Monday, in incidents which did not cause injuries.
The Israel army had no immediate comment on the reports.

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

All civilian deaths are tragic but the fact is that the care taken by Israel to avoid civilian casualties is why the death toll so far is low considering the density of the population and the size of the operation.

Does deliberately targeting medical personnel and ambulances, and bombing six hospitals in the past 4 days constitute 'taking care to avoid civilians casualties' in your weird scheme of things?

Does bombing a U.N safe house today and killing at least 30 people also constitute 'taking care to avoid civilians casualties'?

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

All civilian deaths are tragic but the fact is that the care taken by Israel to avoid civilian casualties is why the death toll so far is low considering the density of the population and the size of the operation.

Does deliberately targeting medical personnel and ambulances, and bombing six hospitals in the past 4 days constitute 'taking care to avoid civilians casualties' in your weird scheme of things?

Does bombing a U.N safe house today and killing at least 30 people also constitute 'taking care to avoid civilians casualties'?

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

After the formation of Israel, for 25 years Arab forces launched repeated wars but were unable to destroy Israel.

That's a convenient narrative.

Unfortunately, the historical record has yet to be flushed down the memory hole.

Before the Arab states declared war on the state of Israel, the Israeli's had already invaded and occupied large areas of land allocated to the Palestinians under the U.N Partition plan, and had carried out ethnic cleansing and massacres as part of Plan Dalet - a detailed plan of ethnic cleansing - such as the massacre at Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948 in which 600 unarmed men, women and children were systematically slaughtered.

The 1948 war commenced on 15 May 1948.

The only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that allocated to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were allocated to the Palestinian Arab state.

The areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas allocated to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan.
The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to those areas allocated by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.

The commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas allocated to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

After the formation of Israel, for 25 years Arab forces launched repeated wars but were unable to destroy Israel.

And as for the 1967 war, Israel attacked Egypt and Syria, not the other way around.

Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982).

A few months after the war, Yitzhak Rabin remarked: "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on 14 May would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it" (Le Monde, 29 February 1968).

'General Matityahu Peled, one of the architects of the Israeli conquest, committed what the Israeli public considered blasphemy when he admitted the true thinking of the Israeli leadership: "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." (Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972)

March 1972). Israeli Air Force General Ezer Weizmann declared bluntly that "there was never any danger of extermination" (Ma'ariv, 19 April 1972). Mordechai Bentov, a former Israeli cabinet minister, also dismissed the myth of Israel's imminent annihilation: "All this story about the danger of extermination has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories" (Al Hamishmar, 14 April 1972).

After the 1967 war Israel, claimed it invaded because of imminent Arab attack. It claimed that Nasser's closing of the Straits of Tiran constituted an act of war. It also cited Syrian shelling on the demilitarized zone of the Syrian-Israeli border. The claim that the Arabs were going to invade appears particularly ludicrous when one recalls that a third of Egypt's army was in Yemen and therefore quite unprepared to launch a war. On the Syrian front, Israel was engaging in threats and provocations that evidenced many similarities to its behavior in the lead up to the Gaza raid of 1955.

The demilitarized zone on the Syrian-Israeli border was established by agreement on 20 July 1949. Israeli provocations were incessant and enabled Israel to increase and extend its sovereignty by encroachment over the entire Arab area. According to one UN Chief of Staff, Arab villagers were evicted and their homes destroyed (E.L.M. Burns, Between Arab and Israeli, Ivan Obolensky, 1962, pp. 113-114).

Another Chief of Staff described how the Israelis ploughed up Arab land and "advanced the 'frontier' to their own advantage" (Carl von Horn, Soldiering for Peace, Cassell, 1966, p. 79). Israel attempted to evict the Arabs living on the Golan and annex the demilitarized zone. When the Syrians inevitably responded, Israel claimed that "peaceful" Israeli farmers were being shelled by the Syrians. Unmentioned was the fact that the "farmers" were armed and using tractors and farm equipment to encroach on the demilitarized zone (David Hirst, The Gun and the Olive Branch: the Roots of Violence in the Middle East, Faber and Faber, 1984, pp. 213-15). This was part of a "premeditated Israeli policy [..] to get all the Arabs out of the way by fair means or foul."

Shortly after the Syrian response on 7 April 1967, the Israeli Air Force attacked Syria, shooting down six planes, hitting thirty fortified positions and killing about 100 people (Hirst, op. cit., p. 214). It was unlikely that any Syrian guns would have been fired if not for Israel's provocation. Israel's need for water also played a role in the 1967 attack. The invasion completed Israel's encirclement of the headwaters of the Upper Jordan River, its capture of the West Bank and the two aquifers arising there, which currently supply all the groundwater for northern and central Israel.'

eldarion75

Their version of all this is probably wildly different, Byrnzie. Propaganda flavoured kool aid, force fed from an early age..

badbrains

I still say it's a genocide. Nice to know I'm NOT the only one. Welcome to the discussion byrnzie. Where you been? Lol

eldarion75

the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..

hedonist

The man they call my enemy, I've seen his eyes
He looks just like me, a mirror

The swallowed seeds of fucking arrogance
breeding in the thoughts of ten thousand fools that fight irreverence

Byrnzie

badbrains said:

I still say it's a genocide. Nice to know I'm NOT the only one. Welcome to the discussion byrnzie. Where you been? Lol

I don't pop into the Porch too often. I already make enough enemies on the MT B-)

brianlux

backseatLover12 said:

Jon Stewart gets it right. You can't mention Israel without people jumping down your throat. http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/7wnfel/we-need-to-talk-about-israel

But how about the debate be moved over to AMT and keep this one about peace and love? (the original topic)

Yes, thank you BSL12. I'll second every post that suggests this. This thread is about hope and love and optimism and the desire for peace. Why is it so hard for people to get on board with this? Are we so focused on war that when an opportunity to express the desire for peace comes along we can't see it, can't be there with it? If so, we are doomed, friends. Sad, sad, sad.

Byrnzie

eldarion75 said:

the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..

Well, we can always take a look at the definition of the word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). Article 2:

'Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)'

Does this apply to the situation in the Occupied Territories - including Gaza, which is still technically occupied considering Israel controls it's coastlines, air-space, and land borders, and has been imposing a blockade on the territory for the past seven years? (This isn't my opinion. Check the conclusions of all of the major human rights organizations, including the Red Cross).

I'd say, yeah, it does. Hand in fucking glove.

eldarion75

agree completely..UN are their usual toothless selves, lapdog to US foreign policy..History will be the judge but with the US justifying Israels military response, it's already the biggest badge of shame they'll ever have to wear, not only that they are complicit, but that they support it.

badbrains

eldarion75 said:

agree completely..UN are their usual toothless selves, lapdog to US foreign policy..History will be the judge but with the US justifying Israels military response, it's already the biggest badge of shame they'll ever have to wear, not only that they are complicit, but that they support it.

100% eldarion

brianlux

Peace, love.
No more war.
No more pain.
No more hate.

Luckytwn1

eldarion75 said:

completely and utterly unjustifiable...this is a genocide.

At least 15 dead after UN-run school in Gaza shelled
Building was sheltering Palestinian refugees, Gaza health ministry says

At least 15 people were killed and many wounded today when Israeli forces shelled a UN-run school sheltering Palestinian refugees in northern Gaza, said a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, Ashraf al-Qidra.
The director of a local hospital said various medical centres around Beit Hanoun were receiving the wounded.
“Such a massacre requires more than one hospital to deal with it,” said Ayman Hamdan, director of the Beit Hanoun hospital.
A Reuters photographer at the scene said pools of blood had collected on the ground and on student desks in the courtyard of the school near the apparent impact mark of the shell.
Scores of crying families who had been living in the school ran with their children to the hospital where the victims were being treated a few hundred meters away.
Laila Al-Shinbari, a woman who was at school when it was shelled, told Reuters families had gathered in the courtyard expecting to be evacuated shortly in a Red Cross convoy.
“All of us sat in one place when suddenly four shells landed on our heads ... Bodies were on the ground, (there was) blood and screams. My son is dead and all my relatives are wounded including my other kids,” she wept.
Chris Gunness, spokesman for the main UN agency in Gaza UNRWA, confirmed the strike and criticised Israel.
“Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army ... Over the course of the day UNRWA tried to coordinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians to leave and it was never granted,” Mr Gunness said on his Twitter page.
Earlier today, Mr Gunness told Reuters that Israeli forces had bombed UN shelters on three separate occasions since Monday, in incidents which did not cause injuries.
The Israel army had no immediate comment on the reports.

How do you know this wasn't from a Hamas rocket, over 1000 of which have landed in Gaza?

brianlux

Peace, love, hope.
No more war.
No more hate.

Luckytwn1

Byrnzie said:

Luckytwn1 said:

After the formation of Israel, for 25 years Arab forces launched repeated wars but were unable to destroy Israel.

That's a convenient narrative.

Unfortunately, the historical record has yet to be flushed down the memory hole.

Before the Arab states declared war on the state of Israel, the Israeli's had already invaded and occupied large areas of land allocated to the Palestinians under the U.N Partition plan, and had carried out ethnic cleansing and massacres as part of Plan Dalet - a detailed plan of ethnic cleansing - such as the massacre at Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948 in which 600 unarmed men, women and children were systematically slaughtered.

The 1948 war commenced on 15 May 1948.

The only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that allocated to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were allocated to the Palestinian Arab state.

The areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas allocated to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan.
The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to those areas allocated by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.

The commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas allocated to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).

You can twist it any way you want, the fact is the UN Partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leaders and was wholly rejected by surrounding Arab leaders and governments. Israel was then formed and repeatedly Arab forces tried to destroy it.

As far as '67, I would suggest reading Michael Oren's Six Days of War, which is the authoritative book on the conflict. Oren got access to records that had never been seen before including in the Arab countries. He also spoke to almost all the major living players, Arab and Israeli. Operation Dawn, the Egyptian preemptive strike, was cancelled by Nassar because he was concerned it was compromised. But there is no doubt that Egypt and Arab forces intended to launch a surprise strike. Israel seeing the danger acted.

Luckytwn1

Byrnzie said:

eldarion75 said:

the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..

Well, we can always take a look at the definition of the word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). Article 2:

'Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)'

Does this apply to the situation in the Occupied Territories - including Gaza, which is still technically occupied considering Israel controls it's coastlines, air-space, and land borders, and has been imposing a blockade on the territory for the past seven years? (This isn't my opinion. Check the conclusions of all of the major human rights organizations, including the Red Cross).

I'd say, yeah, it does. Hand in fucking glove.

That's a bunch of nonsense. For one thing, Israel does not control the land borders totally to Gaza. I don't hear you claiming that Egypt is committing genocide. Furthermore, the idea that Israel has intent to destroy the Palestinians is laughable. As one major example, Palestinians are treated in Israeli hopsitals every day. Hamas' own leader sent his granddaughter to an Israeli hospital when she needed medical attention (http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-pms-granddaughter-admitted-for-treatment-in-israel/). If Israel was intent on destroying the Palestinians, why would they ever allow even one Palestinian patient into Israel for world class treatment? That seems contrary to intending to destroy them, no?

brianlux

Peace, love, hope.