Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,675
    eldarion75 said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Jon Stewart gets it right. You can't mention Israel without people jumping down your throat. http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/7wnfel/we-need-to-talk-about-israel

    But how about the debate be moved over to AMT and keep this one about peace and love? (the original topic)

    Im finding that exact thing with pro-israelis..you cant even be 'please can we stop killing innocent children, stop waging war' without them going into a hysterical meltdown about it..it's feckin bizarre
    Yeah, I've been thinking about how bizarre it is too. People are really losing their shit over this issue it seems. You can't say anything about anything without being accused of something, lol.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • 1ThoughtKnown
    1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
    Unless you understand the history of the Middle East... and I am talking only back to the end of WWII history, then you cannot possibly understand why these conflicts continue to happen.
  • dankind
    dankind Posts: 20,841
    Nihilist NIN break:
    Big time.
    Hard line.
    Bad luck.
    Fist fuck!
    Don't think you're having all the fun.
    You know me. I hate everyone!
    <:-P
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • Luckytwn1
    Luckytwn1 Posts: 517
    eldarion75 said:

    the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..


    This is not true either. You left out the governments of Canada, the UK, France, Japan, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Plus, the US population overwhelmingly supports Israel.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    It's war,but it is not genocide.Its not good,but its not ethnic cleansing.Thats over dramatizing and sensationalizing the aspects of this conflict.


    gen·o·cide
    ˈjenəˌsīd/
    noun
    the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

    1940s: from Greek genos ‘race’ + -cide.
    Translate genocide to
    Use over time for: genocide
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Luckytwn1 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..


    This is not true either. You left out the governments of Canada, the UK, France, Japan, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Plus, the US population overwhelmingly supports Israel.
    The us population OVERWHELMINGLY supports Israel? Now this is just silly. It would be more believable if you just said that the US congress/senate OVERWHEMINGLY supports Israel.
  • PJammer4life
    PJammer4life Los Angeles Posts: 2,669
    If the sea blockade and Egyptian border were opened freeing Gaza for trade and travel, Hamas would almost certainly use this as an opportunity to acquire weapons for a future war vs. Israel. This is the catch 22 that Israel is in, so Gaza remains imprisoned. Bombings by Israel and killing of civilians causes future peace to be unlikely, as families who lose loved ones vow revenge. And it flames hatred. This is why I'm told the rockets were fired to begin with. An endless cycle of hatred, revenge, and death. And when the youth is taught to hate, or sees actions that make the other side the enemy, what hope is there for peace?
    Bridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/23
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014
    PJammer4life said:

    If the sea blockade and Egyptian border were opened freeing Gaza for trade and travel, Hamas would almost certainly use this as an opportunity to acquire weapons for a future war vs. Israel. This is the catch 22 that Israel is in, so Gaza remains imprisoned. Bombings by Israel and killing of civilians causes future peace to be unlikely, as families who lose loved ones vow revenge. And it flames hatred. This is why I'm told the rockets were fired to begin with. An endless cycle of hatred, revenge, and death. And when the youth is taught to hate, or sees actions that make the other side the enemy, what hope is there for peace?

    Exactly. You see the pic I posted about the one teen who survived the UN school shelter massacre? You see the look on his face the look in his eyes? You just killed his entire fucken family and destroyed his city, what does he have left? What's the point of him to live on? You just created ANOTHER freedom fighter.

    Edit- I think byrnzie posted the pic in the gaza thread on amt.
  • Luckytwn1
    Luckytwn1 Posts: 517
    edited July 2014
    badbrains said:

    Luckytwn1 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..


    This is not true either. You left out the governments of Canada, the UK, France, Japan, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Plus, the US population overwhelmingly supports Israel.
    The us population OVERWHELMINGLY supports Israel? Now this is just silly. It would be more believable if you just said that the US congress/senate OVERWHEMINGLY supports Israel.
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/21/cnn-poll-americans-clearly-side-with-israel-in-gaza-fighting/

    And not only does the US population support Israel, "Support for U.S. military aid to Israel also remains fairly stable, with almost two-thirds of Americans saying that U.S. assistance to Israel should be increased or kept the same," Holland added."

    Considering the massive polarization politically in the US, to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on anything shows how significant that is.
    Post edited by Luckytwn1 on
  • Luckytwn1
    Luckytwn1 Posts: 517
    rr165892 said:

    It's war,but it is not genocide.Its not good,but its not ethnic cleansing.Thats over dramatizing and sensationalizing the aspects of this conflict.


    gen·o·cide
    ˈjenəˌsīd/
    noun
    the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

    1940s: from Greek genos ‘race’ + -cide.
    Translate genocide to
    Use over time for: genocide

    Well, I think it shows where people's real agendas are when they are accusing Israel of genocide when less than 1000 civilians are dead. Any civilian death is tragic but again, Israel would be killing many more people than that if they were trying to harm civilians because of the density of the population. Even worse, I don't hear the same people talking about the actual genocides going on right at at this very moment where Isis is telling Catholics "convert, leave, or die" and ordering 4 million Iraqi women to have their genitals mutilated or in Syria where 170,000 civilians have died including many more Palestinians than have died in Gaza. There is nothing that exposes bias more than selective moral outrage.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Luckytwn1 said:

    badbrains said:

    Luckytwn1 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..


    This is not true either. You left out the governments of Canada, the UK, France, Japan, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Plus, the US population overwhelmingly supports Israel.
    The us population OVERWHELMINGLY supports Israel? Now this is just silly. It would be more believable if you just said that the US congress/senate OVERWHEMINGLY supports Israel.
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/21/cnn-poll-americans-clearly-side-with-israel-in-gaza-fighting/

    And not only does the US population support Israel, "Support for U.S. military aid to Israel also remains fairly stable, with almost two-thirds of Americans saying that U.S. assistance to Israel should be increased or kept the same," Holland added."
    I wouldn't call 57% over 34% OVERWHELMING, especially when the same article says 43% said Israel is using Right amount of force whereas 40% said Israel is using TO MUCH force. Also, poll was done by CNN, aren't they on the BDS list of company's supporting the siege on gaza?
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,675
    edited July 2014
    eldarion75 said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Jon Stewart gets it right. You can't mention Israel without people jumping down your throat. http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/7wnfel/we-need-to-talk-about-israel

    But how about the debate be moved over to AMT and keep this one about peace and love? (the original topic)

    Im finding that exact thing with pro-israelis..you cant even be 'please can we stop killing innocent children, stop waging war' without them going into a hysterical meltdown about it..it's feckin bizarre
    Yeah, I've been thinking about how bizarre it is too. People are really losing their shit over this issue it seems. You can't say anything about anything without being accused of something, lol.
    1ThoughtKnown said:

    Unless you understand the history of the Middle East... and I am talking only back to the end of WWII history, then you cannot possibly understand why these conflicts continue to happen.

    That is not very hard to know. How come people assume that anyone with an opinion they don't agree with is probably ignorant?
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Luckytwn1
    Luckytwn1 Posts: 517
    edited July 2014
    badbrains said:

    Luckytwn1 said:

    badbrains said:

    Luckytwn1 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    the majority of people think it's a genocide, everyone except israelis and the US govt that is..


    This is not true either. You left out the governments of Canada, the UK, France, Japan, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Plus, the US population overwhelmingly supports Israel.
    The us population OVERWHELMINGLY supports Israel? Now this is just silly. It would be more believable if you just said that the US congress/senate OVERWHEMINGLY supports Israel.
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/21/cnn-poll-americans-clearly-side-with-israel-in-gaza-fighting/

    And not only does the US population support Israel, "Support for U.S. military aid to Israel also remains fairly stable, with almost two-thirds of Americans saying that U.S. assistance to Israel should be increased or kept the same," Holland added."
    I wouldn't call 57% over 34% OVERWHELMING, especially when the same article says 43% said Israel is using Right amount of force whereas 40% said Israel is using TO MUCH force. Also, poll was done by CNN, aren't they on the BDS list of company's supporting the siege on gaza?
    To say that I couldn't possibly care less about BDS' list of companies would be the understatement of the year. BDS is a bunch of people wasting time who don't know what they are talking about and who have had zero impact. If you actually followed a boycott of Israeli products you would no longer be able to post here since you wouldn't be able to use your cell phone, tablet or computer because every one of those items contains Israeli technology and/or parts.
  • dankind
    dankind Posts: 20,841
    brianlux said:

    rr165892 said:

    brianlux said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    It's nice to see that this thread supposedly about peace has been brought down to this debate. I guess...

    Yes, exactly! And every effort to return the flow of this thread back to peace is outright ignored. Sad, very sad. If Ed were to read this thread I think that is precisely what he would say- "sad".

    Brian,Im beginning to think you walk the earth barefoot in long flowing robes like a mix of Yoda and the Dali lama sprinkling flower pedals and chanting peace hymns.Am I close?lol
    Hahaha rr! That would be a sight!

    No, I like to think of myself in a way Jimi Hendrix once suggested: "Instead of walking the street with, you guns and weapons, why don't we walk down the streets with, ah, electric guitars!" ... and fire off riffs of peace and love I might add. ;-)
    image
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited July 2014
    hedonist said:

    The man they call my enemy, I've seen his eyes
    He looks just like me, a mirror

    The swallowed seeds of fucking arrogance
    breeding in the thoughts of ten thousand fools that fight irreverence

    image

    Perfect.

    Not my enemy,.. no, not my enemy,..
    Don't speak for me. No, not my enemy.
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    We are all Gazans, oppressed and hopeless, waiting for the next bomb to fall.

    We are all Israelis, captive of the strength of own weapons which express our fears.

    At this moment of peril, we are not called upon to take sides of either Gazans or Israelis, but of humanity itself and ask ourselves whether we shall at last put an end to war or shall war put an end to us? -- Dennis Kucinich
  • cydonia
    cydonia Denbighshire, North Wales , UK Posts: 456
    Eddie and the band have always been a major influence on my life, inspiring me to write my own songs and come clean and when at Milton Keynes with my brother he delivered a speech which touched everyone's hearts, it reinforced my belief that music can make a difference, my mum who recently passed would have been at the gig and would have brought tears to her eyes. She taught me love is the most important thing in life and whatever nationality we all have rights to speak the truth , thanks and peace. I believe...........
  • JWPearl
    JWPearl Posts: 19,893
    Thats beautiful and im sorry for your loss but there is hope...
  • helplessdancer
    helplessdancer Posts: 5,293
    it's all about peace and love. the hippies were right all along.
    come together right now
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Luckytwn1 said:

    You can twist it any way you want, the fact is the UN Partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leaders and was wholly rejected by surrounding Arab leaders and governments. Israel was then formed and repeatedly Arab forces tried to destroy it.

    As far as '67, I would suggest reading Michael Oren's Six Days of War, which is the authoritative book on the conflict. Oren got access to records that had never been seen before including in the Arab countries. He also spoke to almost all the major living players, Arab and Israeli. Operation Dawn, the Egyptian preemptive strike, was cancelled by Nassar because he was concerned it was compromised. But there is no doubt that Egypt and Arab forces intended to launch a surprise strike. Israel seeing the danger acted.

    I didn't twist anything. I simply provided some facts. Even Israeli historians admit that ethnic cleansing and land-theft took place before the Arab armies attacked.
    The Palestinians had every right to resist the carve-up of their land which allocated 50% to the 20% Jewish population. just as they now every right to resist the post 1967 occupation and ongoing land-grab.
    As for 1967, did you miss those quotes from Israeli leaders that I posted? What's the matter? You don't like it when reality stares you in the face? Two thirds of Egypt's army was on the border with Yemen at the time. They had no intention of attacking Israel.
    You say that 'there is no doubt that Egypt and Arab forces intended to launch a surprise strike', yet your own Israeli political and military leadership think other wise. Also, the Americans at the time disagree with your 'opinion' too. Here's some more reality. Feel free to close your eyes and pretend it isn't there:

    Norman Finkelstein - 'Knowing Too much - How The American Jewish Romance With Israel is Coming To An End'

    P. 170: 'U.S appraisals of Nasser's Intentions on eve of 1967 war'

    Major General Meir Amit, head of the Mossad, told senior American officials on 1st June that "there were no differences between the U.S and the Israeli's on the military intelligence picture or it's interpretation". "The Egyptian build-up in Sinai lacked a clear offensive plan," Israeli scholar Avraham Sela reports, "and Nasser's defensive instructions explicitly assumed an Israeli first-strike."

    25th May - CIA Appraisal: 'In our view, UAR [Egyptian] military dispositions in Sinai are defensive in character...The steps taken thus far by [other] Arab armies do not prove that the Arabs intend an all-out attack on Israel....In sum, we believe these are merely gestures in the interests of the fiction of Arab unity, but have little military utility in a conflict with Israel.'

    26th May - General Earle Wheeler, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff: 'The UAR's dispositions are defensive and do not look as if they are preparatory to an invasiob of Israel...'There was no indication that the Egyptians would attack. If the UAR moved, it would give up it's defensive positions in the Sinai for little advantage.'

    26th May - CIA's Board of National Estimates: 'Clearly Nasser has won the first round. It is possible that [Nasser] may seek a military show-down with Israel, designed to settle the whole problem once and for all. This seems to us highly unlikely...The most likely course seems to be for Nasser to hold to his present winnings as long as he can, and in as full measure as he can.'
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