I wasn't pretending anything man. Hamas and ISIS aren't the same. ISIS is worse - and it's worth caring about what they're doing to people. If you look away from Israel for two seconds its not going to atomize Gaza.
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WhatYouTaughtMe
I have no idea what's going on right now! Posts: 4,957
Excuse me, but it seems that you have forgotten the title of this thread. We are not obligated to talk about Gaza here. Get a grip Byrnzie.
Excuse me, but dancinacrossthewater was trying to pretend that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Try keeping up.
No he wasn't.
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.
Excuse me, but it seems that you have forgotten the title of this thread. We are not obligated to talk about Gaza here. Get a grip Byrnzie.
Excuse me, but dancinacrossthewater was trying to pretend that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Try keeping up.
No he wasn't.
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.
Nuh uh.
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Six steps forward, half a dozen back? )
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Excuse me, but it seems that you have forgotten the title of this thread. We are not obligated to talk about Gaza here. Get a grip Byrnzie.
Excuse me, but dancinacrossthewater was trying to pretend that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Try keeping up.
No he wasn't.
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.
Nuh uh.
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
Excuse me, but it seems that you have forgotten the title of this thread. We are not obligated to talk about Gaza here. Get a grip Byrnzie.
Excuse me, but dancinacrossthewater was trying to pretend that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Try keeping up.
No he wasn't.
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.
Nuh uh.
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
That isn't saying that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Do you really see that there? It's like we don't even speak the same language.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Excuse me, but it seems that you have forgotten the title of this thread. We are not obligated to talk about Gaza here. Get a grip Byrnzie.
Excuse me, but dancinacrossthewater was trying to pretend that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Try keeping up.
No he wasn't.
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.
Nuh uh.
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
That isn't saying that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Do you really see that there? It's like we don't even speak the same language.
It's what we used to refer to in Human Services as a "negative hallucination".
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
This thread has become almost 4 weeks of "reasons why war is justified" instead of it's original, rather eloquent statement by Ed. Take the convo somewhere else, AET, maybe.
I, personally, am anti-war. Whatever reasons are provided to me to be pro-war, I reject.
I hope the mods don't flag me for being "off-topic" or "combative".
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
I, personally, am anti-war. Whatever reasons are provided to me to be pro-war, I reject.
I'm not however anti-fight. You have no idea who I am or what my life experience is, so I would calmly suggest you keep your personal judgements concerning my, or anyone else's "enlightenment" to yourself, B.
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.
Really, what I'm trying to point out is that things are just a bit more complicated than US and Israel = evil colonialist oppressors. Again, I'm not excusing or condoning all of Israel's actions by any stretch. But your worldview is just as myopic and narrowminded as the view of those who yell USA USA and refuse to criticize anything the States or Israel does.
Really, what I'm trying to point out is that things are just a bit more complicated than US and Israel = evil colonialist oppressors. Again, I'm not excusing or condoning all of Israel's actions by any stretch. But your worldview is just as myopic and narrowminded as the view of those who yell USA USA and refuse to criticize anything the States or Israel does.
I'm sorry to be harsh here, but plain and simple, that's not true. Those who yell "USA, USA" and refuse to criticize anything they do - do so because they refuse to educate themselves on the premises and train of logic required to arrive at a conclusion that a decision is worth yelling "USA, USA" in favour of. Byrnzie has been open to listening to logic, and any time that I've questioned his, he's rebutted clearly and practically with sound logic: that's a far stretch from a delusional chant in unwavering support of a nation.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.
And why aren't "THEY" helping the Palestinian kids in Gaza? Aren't they human?
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.
And why aren't "THEY" helping the Palestinian kids in Gaza? Aren't they human?
100% man. Of course they are and of course they should be. Israel has fucked up a lot and a lot of innocent people have been hurt or killed. It's not alright. Let me address this in a longer post in a second.
If I was Obama, here is what I'd be saying to Netanyahu.
"Look dude, I get the history of the Jews - both recent and ancient. When people keep trying to kill you, you get paranoid and unbalanced. You can think of Israel as the ultimate response to trauma - 'we've been fucked over for so long we're gonna make ourselves so strong that nobody can fuck with us, and we're gonna hurt some people along the way so those people feel a little bit of what we felt, even though they weren't the people who hurt us.'
But you have to get over it. You can't hurt other people anymore. Israel is secure as a state - never mind the holocaust, it's not even 1948 anymore, or 1967, or 1973. If Iran ever actually seems like it's getting close to launcing on you, we've got your back. But until then, this shit you're doing must stop. We sever funding to your military, and if it doesn't look like you're a legitimate partner in the peace process (ie move to relinquish land, air sea control of Gaza, etc), we start supporting BDS too."
Now this is far from a perfect US position - there are flaws that both Palestinians and Israelis could point out with it. But I'd sure like to say it to some of my relatives.
Let me just quickly add that although badbrains and I clearly locate ourselves in different positions on this issue, I've been able to engage in what I feel is constructive dialogue with him. If that could happen with Byrnzie and fuck, it'd be nice.
I'm interested to hear whether someone like Byrnzie or fuck is in favour of international intervention into the the crisis in Iraq right now.
Check out the AMT Iraq thread.
will do
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Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
edited August 2014
And on that note and because there is a discussion thread in AMT, please feel free to continue the conversation there. Thanks...and don't forget the Posting Guidelines...there's too much snotty bickering and making personal comments AT each other going on...not enough listening.
Comments
It is medieval what ISIS is doing. In 2014.
http://m.cnn.com/primary/cnnd_fullarticle?topic=newsarticle&category=cnnd_world&articleId=cnn/2014/08/09/world/meast/yazidi-survivor#page2
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Progress!
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
I'm not however anti-fight. You have no idea who I am or what my life experience is, so I would calmly suggest you keep your personal judgements concerning my, or anyone else's "enlightenment" to yourself, B.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"Look dude, I get the history of the Jews - both recent and ancient. When people keep trying to kill you, you get paranoid and unbalanced. You can think of Israel as the ultimate response to trauma - 'we've been fucked over for so long we're gonna make ourselves so strong that nobody can fuck with us, and we're gonna hurt some people along the way so those people feel a little bit of what we felt, even though they weren't the people who hurt us.'
But you have to get over it. You can't hurt other people anymore. Israel is secure as a state - never mind the holocaust, it's not even 1948 anymore, or 1967, or 1973. If Iran ever actually seems like it's getting close to launcing on you, we've got your back. But until then, this shit you're doing must stop. We sever funding to your military, and if it doesn't look like you're a legitimate partner in the peace process (ie move to relinquish land, air sea control of Gaza, etc), we start supporting BDS too."
Now this is far from a perfect US position - there are flaws that both Palestinians and Israelis could point out with it. But I'd sure like to say it to some of my relatives.