Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

Byrnzie

musicsam3 said:

So if someone says that ALL of these numbers should be 0, then there is
in some way something wrong with that person? Or that opinion?
Just trying to figure out how real human beings are missing the point
by such a large margin here…

I didn't see anybody claiming that all of these numbers should be zero. I saw somebody say that "Hamas has a VERY bad track record as far as violating cease-fires go."

Byrnzie

Leezestarr313 said:

Somebody said earlier all the pro-Israel people went away from the thread. That is probably true, but can you blame them? This in here is a very one-sided discussion. This is not how to debate properly. If you want to have a mature discussion, you don't shove your own opinion which you think is superior to everybody else's down other people's throats. You are all smart adults.

Again, with the 'opinions'. The problem has always been that those who like to post 'opinions' and 'beliefs' don't like it when the other person posts facts based on the documentary record.
That's why they disappear.

brianlux

Byrnzie said:

backseatLover12 said:

I'll add this. (last time)

Some peaceful protesters in the late '60s became so hard headed and angry about the war, they started making their own war: making bombs in their basements to combat pro-war folks. Really? Using violence to combat violence? That is exactly what that post about being "anti-war" by being against war yet pro anger, and inevitably pro-war. You CAN'T SOLVE VIOLENCE WITH VIOLENCE.

Wake up folks, the only way to combat war is through empathy, understanding, dropping the pride, ego and issues we have in order to save mankind. Learn from each other, solve our issues and what Eddie said: "LOVE, LOVE, LOVE."

How many bombs were exploded during the anti-Vietnam protests of the 60's? None. Seriously, do you just make this stuff up because it sounds good?

The Vietnam war was not brought to an end by hippies sitting around hugging each other and talking about love. The Vietnam was war largely brought to an end by massive protests, some of which turned violent - like Kent State, where the National Guard shot and killed two student protestors.

Not to argue but just to clarify, Byrnzie, from my experience. I was there.

You are correct about those protests. I was on campus at San Francisco State University during some of the protests against the Vietnam war. What I saw were people fed up with an unjust war- angry people. I saw tac squad moving into position on campus- large men dressed in dark fatigues mounted on large black horses with shields and black clubs, mace and guns. I saw young people beaten and bleeding. I had friends and a family member who were involved in similar protest across the bay at U.C. Berkeley, another bastion of peace and love hippie hugging freaks.

But to deny that the pacifists did not play a vital role as well is very unfair to those of us who protested by promoting peace, by writing letters, by attending some of those protest at great risk to ourselves (I saw friends, fellow pacifists bleed) and, yes, by making love, not war. You make light of pacifism by snide remarks, implying that all we did was sit around and hug and talk about love. Oh, that we did! You bet! And, yes, some took the easy way out and simply spaced out but the peace and love movement was not only confined to the paisley and polka dot posters you see in all those nostalgia books. There were many of us who were ardent, serious, mindful, thoughtful pacifists and we did not make our point by going around berating others and pompously declaring what they had to say was bullshit. Generalizing a group you don't support with cliches and biased statements may not be the best way to make your point, B.
No,hatred, huh?

Leezestarr313

But how do you know your facts are facts and not propaganda? How can anybody be sure that what they read on the almighty internet is real? I am all for facts. What I do not like is feeling belittled or mocked when I am still out there to form my opinion or to learn about facts. If you want to pull somebody over to your side because you think you have the facts, then do not treat them like they just talked shit. Be the wise man and bring your message out like it. Who will listen to you if you shoo everybody away?

PJ_Soul

Leezestarr313 said:

But how do you know your facts are facts and not propaganda? How can anybody be sure that what they read on the almighty internet is real? I am all for facts. What I do not like is feeling belittled or mocked when I am still out there to form my opinion or to learn about facts. If you want to pull somebody over to your side because you think you have the facts, then do not treat them like they just talked shit. Be the wise man and bring your message out like it. Who will listen to you if you shoo everybody away?

I support this message.

musicsam3

Byrnzie said:

musicsam3 said:

So if someone says that ALL of these numbers should be 0, then there is
in some way something wrong with that person? Or that opinion?
Just trying to figure out how real human beings are missing the point
by such a large margin here…

I didn't see anybody claiming that all of these numbers should be zero. I saw somebody say that "Hamas has a VERY bad track record as far as violating cease-fires go."

Byrnzie,
My point is that an artist who just doesn't want any more people to die and is frustrated
wrote a letter explaining that. Now the thread that follows has turned into this argument
about who is "right" or "wrong" and is using human casualties as numeric proof.
You seem like a very passionate person, and pretty bright as well.
Doesn't it seem like this thread has turned into a microcosm of the initial statements
point? No more war, of any kind, for any reason...

Byrnzie

Leezestarr313 said:

But how do you know your facts are facts and not propaganda? How can anybody be sure that what they read on the almighty internet is real?

What makes you think that everything I post comes from the internet?
Secondly, you're assuming that nothing can be believed as fact. That there's no such thing as the documentary record.

fact
[fakt]

noun
1.
something that actually exists; reality; truth:
Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.
something known to exist or to have happened:
Space travel is now a fact.
3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:
Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened:
The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

Byrnzie

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/gaza-us-condemns-barbaric-hamas-ceasefire-breach-121139953.html#tTUQs6p
'The United States placed the blame for the swift collapse of the latest Gaza ceasefire squarely at the door of Hamas on Friday, accusing the Palestinian militants of launching a "barbaric" attack.

...Obama also insisted that the deaths of "innocent civilians in Gaza caught in the crossfire have to weigh on our conscience and we have to do more to protect them."

So let me get this right; attacking and killing soldiers is 'barbaric', while deliberately attacking and killing civilians 'weighs on our conscience'.

Byrnzie

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/gaza-us-condemns-barbaric-hamas-ceasefire-breach-121139953.html#tTUQs6p
'Hamas for its part accused Israel of breaching the ceasefire after intensive shelling killed dozens of people in southern Gaza.'

PJ_Soul

Well that's condescending.

She never said that everything you post is from the Internet, nor that everything g you post is propaganda.
But maybe you should stop treating everyone who doesn't consider you the utmost authority on the matter, as well as the moral dictator in the matter, like they're idiots or assholes. I can't speak for Leeze, but that's how you're coming off IMO. Doesn't mean that i don't agree with SOME of what you have said. But i think that you are alienating most people, and that has nothing to do with what your opinion is or how much you supposedly know compared to every single other person here. It has to do with presentation and your apparent lack of respect for others. If you disagree with that, then you sincerely don't give a shit about what anyone thinks, in which case I don't understand why you're even bothering to post at all.

Little edit: yes, I know you stopped caring about anything I said a long time ago, lol. I'm saying it anyway.

Leezestarr313

Maybe we perceive the meaning of fact in a different way. From the Oxford dictionary, I get this:
1 A thing that is known or proved to be true: the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas [mass noun]: a body of fact

(1.1 (facts) Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article: even the most inventive journalism peters out without facts, and in this case there were no facts
1.2 (the fact that) Used to refer to a particular situation under discussion: despite the fact that I’m so tired, sleep is elusive)

1.3 The truth about events as opposed to interpretation: there was a question of fact as to whether they had received the letter

1.1 and 1.2 do not fit into what my understanding of facts is in this whole scenario. But 1 and 1.3 hit the nail on the head. My understanding of "facts" in regards to news about a conflict like this one we talk about here does not include your points 3 and 4. How can something that has been said to have happened or is supposed to have happened actually be a fact? A fact is a fact. In fact, you can never actually believe anything is a fact if you haven't been there and haven't documented it from all angles. So I am suspicious of everything that is reported at conflicts like this. There is no news agency in this world who has a truly objective perspective on this conflict. So we have to read between the lines. I guess.

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul said:

Well that's condescending.

She never said that everything you post is from the Internet, nor that everything g you post is propaganda.
But maybe you should stop treating everyone who doesn't consider you the utmost authority on the matter, as well as the moral dictator in the matter, like they're idiots or assholes. I can't speak for Leeze, but that's how you're coming off IMO. Doesn't mean that i don't agree with SOME of what you have said. But i think that you are alienating most people, and that has nothing to do with what your opinion is or how much you supposedly know compared to every single other person here. It has to do with presentation and your apparent lack of respect for others. If you disagree with that, then you sincerely don't give a shit about what anyone thinks, in which case I don't understand why you're even bothering to post at all.

Little edit: yes, I know you stopped caring about anything I said a long time ago, lol. I'm saying it anyway.

You forgot to accuse me of being a racist.

hedonist

This thread's like a fucking roller coaster from day to evening.

PJ Soul and Leeze, for whatever it's worth, respect from here for your well-spokenness and candor up there.

(I had a mini-epiphany earlier when walking down the hallway this evening, seeing mezuzas on almost every doorway, including ours. Hope I can write about it in some way to do it justice, as another viewpoint amongst the many.)

Byrnzie

Leezestarr313 said:

In fact, you can never actually believe anything is a fact if you haven't been there and haven't documented it from all angles. So I am suspicious of everything that is reported at conflicts like this. There is no news agency in this world who has a truly objective perspective on this conflict. So we have to read between the lines. I guess.

That's right, but you seem to be assuming that the only available information is that which comes from news agencies.

Facts can be gleaned from many sources: human rights organization reports, such as Amnesty International, the United Nations, recorded speeches, political statements, the documents pertaining to international law, e.t.c.

brianlux

Dramamine, anyone! :-D

PJ_Soul

Byrnzie said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well that's condescending.

She never said that everything you post is from the Internet, nor that everything g you post is propaganda.
But maybe you should stop treating everyone who doesn't consider you the utmost authority on the matter, as well as the moral dictator in the matter, like they're idiots or assholes. I can't speak for Leeze, but that's how you're coming off IMO. Doesn't mean that i don't agree with SOME of what you have said. But i think that you are alienating most people, and that has nothing to do with what your opinion is or how much you supposedly know compared to every single other person here. It has to do with presentation and your apparent lack of respect for others. If you disagree with that, then you sincerely don't give a shit about what anyone thinks, in which case I don't understand why you're even bothering to post at all.

Little edit: yes, I know you stopped caring about anything I said a long time ago, lol. I'm saying it anyway.

You forgot to accuse me of being a racist.

Well, i still can't accept that "understandable" thing, but others already stated my argument on that one.

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul said:

Well, i still can't accept that "understandable" thing, but others already stated my argument on that one.

Sure, because if you understand something then it means that you support and condone it, right?

hedonist

Wait...is reading/posting a link not getting something from the internet, regardless of whether or not it's a (legit) news agency?

Byrnzie

hedonist said:

Wait...is reading/posting a link not getting something from the internet, regardless of whether or not it's a (legit) news agency?

Yeah, why?

hedonist

Byrnzie said:

hedonist said:

Wait...is reading/posting a link not getting something from the internet, regardless of whether or not it's a (legit) news agency?

Yeah, why?

Earlier you'd said "what makes you think that everything I post comes from the internet?", but it does, as do the other sources of information you mentioned after.

The majority of our information is obtained "from the internet" or some form of broadcasting. Just not seeing the unquestioned accuracy of yours vs questioning those of others.

Not to mention opinions - some of this IS based on that. How can the fervor with which we hold them not be reflected? It's part of this whole discussion.